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Revision as of 19:21, 10 February 2006

The Odin Brotherhood

del nonverifiable, It looks like only Mark Mirabello who wrote a book with the same title can say something about it. Since the article was created by a user:Mmirabello, I smell original research, too. mikka (t) 01:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

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• Do not Delete. Yes, Professor Mirabello wrote the book. University of Glasgow (Ph.D.),University of Virgina (MA), University of Toledo (B.A.). Writing the book qualifies me to write an article. Please feel free to e-mail at mmirabello@shawnee.edu.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mmirabello (talk • contribs)

Sure, to boost the sales of the book; it would be a good idea. Are there any independent confirmations of rich fantasy of Professor? Please read the policy wikipedia:Verifiability. mikka (t) 02:06, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

• Delete I'm voting to delete unless it can cite sources Ruby 02:11, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Delete original research. Billbrock 02:16, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Delete reads like utter FictionCruft. I mean, sources?? Who is this important to? Hilarious WP:NOR, verifiability and blatant self-promotion issues too... Writing a book qualifies you to do exactly SQUAT on WP. The existence of a notable subject qualifies anybody to write an article about it, PhD or not... 173 unique Googles, nearly all of which are commercial listings for the book rather than any verification of the subject, while the comments on the book's Amazon page (sales rank: #2,970,920) could not stink more strongly of Sockpuppetry. Mirabello has been very clever with his linkscattering, especially the various legit sounding google references which eventually end up here. Nice try. ++Deiz 02:24, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Avi 02:44, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as non-notable and attempted WP:VSCA. When attempts to verify end up back at GeoCities... well, that pretty much settles it. --Kinu 03:19, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per all above. Royboycrashfan 03:20, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Strong delete idem. User has page here Checked content at Amazone (in so far it was available), and contains factual problems, consistent with the lack of knowledge of 15 century, utter fantasies about traditions in Nordic religeon etc. Pure disgusting how a religeon is mutilated. I have removed all links to this page from other wikipedia articles. Online page of the brotherhood is only for the promotion of the book. KimvdLinde 04:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• redirect to Odinism. It appears to be about a book, and that book may be quoted there if notable. Note that if you publish a book first and then quote your book on WP, it does not qualify as "OR" (after all you may edit WP anonymously and would not have to reveal that you are the book's author). Treat like any other piece of fringe literature. dab (ᛏ) 07:53, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Redirect per dab -- Simon Cursitor 09:43, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as non-notable, original research and vanitycruft. --Terence Ong (恭喜发财) 12:52, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Delete It does exist but it seems a completely non notable, online community. Elfguy 13:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Redirect to Germanic Neopaganism or Mark Mirabello. I think the content of the book is interesting as a cultural phenomenon within the milieu of Germanic Neopaganism rather than as documentation of a historically accurate secret society. HroptR 16:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Delete non notable. —-- That Guy, From That Show! 2006-02-08 15:29Z
• Delete falls below the threshhold of notability and smacks of vanity.--Isotope23 17:09, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Isotope23. Death Eater Dan 19:28, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Note about this AfD

Tracking all mentions of an entry or link across wikipedia and deleting them before the AfD is even completed is a form of harassment. I also perceive users placing 7 warning templates on the entry as a form of malicious harassment. There seems to be a total lack of assuming good faith and civility by many here, as well as the most severe violations of attacking new comers which I have ever seen. The editor has less than 25 edits, and has only been a member of wikipedia for three days. He doesn't even know how to sign his name with four tildes (look at the top of this page). This entry was not even 10 minutes old, before it was submitted for AfD. I think we need to wait and see if he is going to add further content, verifiable sources and clean up the entry - or whether it should be merged into another article. Contrary to what has been stated here, I have heard about this alleged secret society elsewhere in print and even on a radio show. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Dab and myself are in fact the only editors who have voted in this AfD who have edited or contributed content at wikipedia about Germanic Neopaganism, Ásatrú, Odinism, Odinic Rite, Polytheistic Reconstructionsim, etc. and I feel that those who have not contributed to these subjects do not know if it is relevant or not because they don't know the subject matter whatsoever. Relax everyone. HroptR 16:27, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I do have knowledge about the topic. That I do not edit on these topics does not matter. --KimvdLinde 17:06, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Valid point; just because someone doesn't have anything to add to an article is no basis to automatically assume they have no knowledge of the subject matter.--Isotope23 17:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Most earlier contributions went through 146.85.84.60 contributions. Just for completness sake. --KimvdLinde 17:21, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

So he has been editing since the 3rd of February? How does this justify harassment? Regardless, of your expertise on the subject matter, NPOV dictates even more discretion if you find it personally disagreeable. HroptR 17:27, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry, but Misplaced Pages is not a list of links to all possible (fantasy) books written on a certain topic. --KimvdLinde 17:40, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

• Some well made points HroptR and I apologise to Mr Mirabello for biting... Still, as the creator of the page is clearly monitoring the debate one might reasonably expect any changes to happen quickly. We all appreciate very few among us have knowledge of this, perhaps because it is an inherently niche topic. We all want to promote our own interests (and commercial publications) but don't lose sight of whether this is really a topic for WP... It's a promo for a book, and would need to be completely rewritten to become some kind of objective article about the society, a society which you state is "alleged" to exist, and therefore doesn't sound extremely verifiable. ++Deiz 18:55, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Clean up

I have gone through and done a quick wikification of the article, so it is a book entry and not an advertisement. I ask editors to consider whether this should be redirected to Mark Mirabello (which also needs clean up) or elsewhere, and whether it is NPOV at this point. HroptR 19:44, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

• Comment The cleanup is better, but I still have a few reservations about this article. The excerpt section is overly long, and in my opinion unecessary. See The Jesus Mysteries for a better example of how this article could be done. Also, the controversy section is POV, basically attempting to defend the lack of sources by casting aspersions on the sourcing of unrelated works. Most importantly, I'm still not convinced this book has reached the threshold of notability. There are no set standards for books that I'm aware of like WP:MUSIC, so it's a judgement call.--Isotope23 19:58, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

• I am planning to nominate the Mark Mirabello page for deletion this evening as it is an autobiography of a non-notable person. The book remains non-notable, it claims to be non-fictional, but without any verification and consequently not a usefull contribution to wikipedia. There is no indication that the website is from someone else than Mark Mirabello, or that any of the advertisments, or radio interviews were with anybody else than Mark Mirabello himself (there is documentation of a radio interview with him). Neither have I gotten any verification from within the Asatru or Odinist community that this group exists (some responses still pending). If he, or others provide verification for the non-fictional aspect of the book (or I get word from others within the community), I would reconsider whether there is potential of a seperate article on the brotherhood themselves. If not, it appear to be fictional work sold as non-fiction. Until then, I remain for deletion of the page as nom. --KimvdLinde 20:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC) Edited error on my site --KimvdLinde 14:27, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

So you are advocating purging all reference to him on wikipedia? You stated: Neither have I gotten any verification from within the Asatru or Odinist community that this group exists which community would this be? I don't think the argument is whether the group exists or not, but whether mention of a book should be purged because the content is questionable. Deleting the biography just seems like sheer malice. HroptR 20:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I am talking about deleting an AUTObiography Misplaced Pages:Auto-biography, in clear conflict with the policies of Misplaced Pages. And to answer your question, the Asatru/Odinist community in Europe and the USA where I am part off. --KimvdLinde 20:51, 8 February 2006 (UTC) It was an error on my site. --KimvdLinde 14:27, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

You might want to revise that - the person who authored the Mark Mirabello entry Stege1 has commented at the talk page. To wit: Mark Mirabello did not write the entry as stated in the nomination for deletion. HroptR 01:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

No, you are talking about deleting an autobiography in clear conflict with the GUIDLINES of Misplaced Pages. Strongly discouraged, but NOT absolutely forbidden. And if HroptR is correct, not an autobiography in the first place. Jcuk 09:29, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Delete. Now: No opinion. Mandrake of Oxford is a vanity press, as such its publications are not inherently notable and likely to be inherently non-notable. Ikkyu2 21:30, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

User:Monicasdude asserts Mandrake is not in fact a vanity press. I have no way to verify this, so I've changed my opinion to No opinion. I note that , while maintaining a pretense of editorial standards, requests that books be submitted in ready-to-print CRC format, and can require authors to pre-order a quantity of books; a reputable publishing house would never permit either of these practices. Ikkyu2 02:24, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

• This is still a vanity article about a seriously unnotable vanity book, written about a seriously sketchy, unencyclopedic topic. Even after efforts by someone acquainted with the subject to shed some light on things, the article has proved impossible to wikify. Vote remains: strong delete. I would also support nomination of the AutobioVanityCruft article Mark Mirabello. Said page (particularly the external links to a self-made profile page at "Shawnee State University" (which in turn is the least wikified article I have yet seen on a university) and a so called "radio" interview (click to see the term "radio" stretched to breaking point)) is as VanityCruftlicious as they come. ++Deiz 23:11, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Did you even read what you just responded to?  :) Ikkyu2 23:58, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Hey Ik, if you mean was I responding you then I wasn't (we seem to be in agreement here) and have reformatted.. otherwise...? ++Deiz 00:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Delete. Now that it's cleaned up it's clearly nn. Comparing one's lack of sourcing to biblical prophets just proves the point: when the book sells as many copies as theirs has, re-submit the article. Carlossuarez46 23:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Amazon.com sales rank of 546,286, the publisher seems like a vanity press. . Peyna 00:35, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. Minimally notable book by minimally notable author. Current publisher doesn't seem to a be a vanity press, doesn't show up on any author alert lists I've seen. Book is actually in-stock at Amazon (as are several others from the publisher) which isn't the norm for vanity presses. I have little doubt that the book itself is of little intrinsic merit, but the same applies to Pokemon, Celine Dion music, and the collected works of Jackie Collins. Monicasdude 00:58, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

• Template:Limbo Fg2 01:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Seems like a real (if obscure and un-authoritative) book from a legit publisher. The article has come a long way from its beginnings, and with further improvement (such as a reduction of the "Manifesto" section and NPOV work on the "Criticism" section) it'll be worth having on the server. -Colin Kimbrell 17:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. Informative book and article. Good reference source. butterflyblues 20:20, 9 February 2006

• Keep. Interesting work. I think the author is well-researched and knows what he is talking about. dogbytes12 21:19 9 February 2006

• Keep. As a practicing Odinist, I use the book. The original article was flawed, but updates improved same. Good work HroptR! warhammer 21:25 9 February 2006

Nice try User: butterflyblues or should I say , User: dogbytes12 or should I say User: warhammer, but faking votes does not help you out, see for the trace that you just left here: See also history for attempt to hide the fake voting by removing my and the fake entries. --KimvdLinde 04:07, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

• Desperate newbie / sock-meatpuppet scramble eh?? Nothing lends more credibility to a page than that... Been making some new friends HroptR?? ++Deiz 04:24, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I do not think it was HroptR, but some students from the university that like the professor very much (nothingb wrong with that). One of them made the page about him. When one of them got hold of the deletion request, things started. HroptR is sincere as far as I can tell, strong in his arguments, but not deceptive or anything bad. --KimvdLinde 04:29, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, and please nobody think I'm accusing HroptR of anything, just remarking that the new postings mention him. ++Deiz 12:59, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

In this bizare play that is curently at stage, I just wanted to clarify things. --KimvdLinde 15:52, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Comment:Sockpuppetry and stacking votes is not my modus operandi. I know plenty of established wikipedia users I could encourage to vote or comment, but I have not. Mob rule is still mob rule. For me personally, not citing sources and verifiable research has undone this book entry, not group consensus or lack of notability. However, I think there is a fine line between fanatical deletionism and revisionism. People are being way too emotional about this on both sides of the issue. HroptR 16:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. According to OCLC FirstSearch-WorldCat, the FBI sees fit to keep this book in their academic library. The book has been published now by several publishers, Mandrake of Oxford is the most recent.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.85.124.121 (talk • contribs)

• • • I am the student who created the article on Mark Mirabello. I did not create the article for The Odin Brotherhood and I have not encouraged any students or anyone else to create excess log ins to influence a vote. I find that accusation by KimvdLinde to be a bit upsetting. While I have only been a member at Misplaced Pages for a short while, I have used it for years and have never tried to add anything false or engage in any unethical practice. Stege1

I am not accusing you of adding the fake stuff. I am only saying that as soon as the word came out at the university, it started to rain anonymuous and new people at this page. I will change the wording to take away the confusion. Sorry for the misunderstanding. --KimvdLinde 15:52, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

• Keep but rewrite There are only about 10 University libraries worldwide that own this book. That's 10 more than any book I ever wrote, but its not a ringing endorsement either. Would it be acceptable to rewrite the article so it wasn't about the book but about the "Odin Brotherhood" as a possibly imaginery movement, listing the book as the source. That way it's not just a book advert any more. If somebody does hear about the Odin Brotherhood somewhere and tries to investigate at WP they would find an entry explaining where the term originated and why it is highly suspect. WP must have an article on Bigfoot, which probably doesn't exist either, right?Thatcher131 16:56, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
• Delete unless someone can point me to either A) a critical (not necessarily negative!) appraisal of the historical claims made in this book by someone with academic qualifications, or B) a critical (not necessarily negative!) appraisal of the book by a member of the polytheistic reconstructionist community and an indication that this is considered an essential text by some segment of the community. Until then, there just isn't enough information for us to write an NPOV article on this book. - AdelaMae 19:21, 10 February 2006 (UTC)