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Vodomar

WeijiBaikeBianji

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning WeijiBaikeBianji

User requesting enforcement

Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 10:21, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

WeijiBaikeBianji (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:ARBR&I#Advocacy, Misplaced Pages:ARBR&I#Correct_use_of_sources, Misplaced Pages:ARBR&I#Editors_reminded_and_discretionary_sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. WeijiBaikeBianji renames four articles in this topic area, replacing the direct connection to intelligence in the titles with an indirect one to IQ, without discussing this first. Less than an hour later, he suggests here that the Race and intelligence article be renamed to something similar "for parallelism with other subarticles of intelligence quotient" when the only reason this proposed name is parallel to the other articles is because he’d just unilaterally renamed them all. When I mention Fertility and intelligence (in this comment ) as one article that isn’t parallel to his proposed rename, he immediately renames that one also.
2. WeijiBaikeBianji renames Race and genetics to "Genetics and the decline of race", again without any discussion. When this was subsequently discussed on the article talk page here, five editors (me, Muntuwandi, Victor Chmara, Moxy, and Dbachmann) agreed that the new title was inappropriate and/or non-neutral. Dbachmann, an administrator, referred to this move as "a rather crude example of pov-pushing by article title."
3. Three examples of WeijiBaikeBianji selectively removing external links from BLP articles (the third diff is him reinstating his edit when it was reverted, without first attempting to resolve this on the discussion page). Some of the links that he removed may have not belonged there, but the problem with these edits is that they removed all of the links to articles and pages describing these researchers positively, keeping only those which were critical of them. This involved keeping the links to negative articles about these living people that were just as irrelevant as the positive ones he’d removed. In both cases, a neutral editor (Maunus) subsequently removed the critical links that WeijiBaikeBianji had kept or added, agreeing with me that they weren’t relevant either:
4. Two examples of WeijiBaikeBianji removing links to other Misplaced Pages articles because they weren’t consistent with changes he was intending to make to those articles in the future. This isn’t advocacy, but it’s article ownership:  other people’s edits to these articles should not be rejected only because they aren’t consistent with WeijiBaikeBianji’s plans.
5. The first edit is an example of WeijiBaikeBianji removing content from an article based on what he apparently considers a misrepresentation of the one of its three sources, along with not being able to verify the other two sources. The wording that he replaced it with is non-neutral and puts the word "race" in scare quotes, even though this is not done in either the article title or any of the sources being cited. The second example is of him restoring content that someone else removed, which contained original research that was not supported by any of the sources being cited, and which also cited Misplaced Pages itself as a source. The issues with the material WeijiBaikeBianji reinstated were discussed here. I’m including these edits alongside one another because I think it’s important to compare WeijiBaikeBianji’s standards for material that supports his point of view with his standards for material that doesn't. If article content disagrees with his point of view, he’ll remove it based on very subtle sourcing issues or his inability to verify its sources, but if material supports his point of view, he’ll reinstate it when it’s removed by others even if it involves circular citations and obvious original research.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

None yet as far as I know, although multiple editors (including admins in some cases) have expressed concern about the neutrality of his edits on article talk pages. See the discussion about his rename of the Race and genetics article for an example. He's also previously reminded other editors that the articles are subject to discretionary sanctions (for example: ) so he’s obviously already aware of this.

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

I’m posting about this here because I think these things need attention via the discretionary sanctions, so it probably should be up to admins to decide what course of action is appropriate. Since WeijiBaikeBianji has not yet been formally warned about his behavior, I’m not convinced that a block or topic ban is necessary yet, and I’d consider it an acceptable result if admins were to decide that a warning and/or probation is enough. WeijiBaikeBianji probably has the potential to contribute to these articles productively if he could learn to be less aggressive about advocating his point of view, and not keep engaging in article ownership behavior. But since he doesn’t seem to be learning this on his own, I think admins need to do something to help him learn it.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I should point out that I’m currently topic banned from these articles, although not because of any misconduct on my part - it’s because of the close connection between my account and that of an editor who was topic banned as a result of the arbitration case. However, both the admin who topic banned me and one of the arbitrators have told me that even while I was topic banned, it would be acceptable for me to post about it here if I felt that there was editor behavior on these articles that needed attention via the discretionary sanctions. There are several other examples of behavior from WeijiBaikeBianji that I think demonstrate advocacy and article ownership, but I’ve only provided a sampling of the behavior from him that I think makes this clearest. Since what matters here is the general behavior rather than the specific examples, it’s important that this thread not get sidetracked by discussing individual content issues. When advocacy is the one of behavioral problems being discussed, it becomes necessary to provide examples of the editor in question inserting or reinstating non-neutral content, but the discussion still needs to be about the editor behavior rather than the content itself.

Update 10/23:

Ok, now that the admin who topic banned me has stated that his topic ban does not extend to preventing me from posting here, I hope we can discuss the merits of this thread itself. I was initially reluctant to contact the other people who’ve been involved in this dispute because I was afraid someone would claim doing this was canvassing, but now that WeijiBaikeBianji is complaining about the fact that I haven’t done so, I’ve gone ahead with it.

Additionally, I should point out that while it was somewhat understandable for the admins who initially commented here to be unfamiliar with this situation and to not realize that my topic ban allowed for this thread, Weiji is familiar with me and with the situation. Since his comment points out that some of the discussion has been taking place in the user talk of these admins, which is where I was attempting to explain this to them, he’s obviously seen my explanation of being given permission to post this thread and there’s no way he could be unaware of this. It seems very disingenuous to me that he would be expressing blanket agreement with the uninformed opinion that this thread should be disregarded because I'm topic banned, despite knowing full well that my topic ban was not intended to prevent this.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning WeijiBaikeBianji

Statement by WeijiBaikeBianji

I thank Ferahgo the Assassin for her timely notification of this request for enforcement on my user talk page. I agree with uninvolved editors Looie496, Angus McLellan, and T. Canens in their analysis of and recommended disposition for this request. I note for the record that the request for enforcement was not accompanied by notice to any of the other involved editors, whether or not they were named or referred to without naming in the request. (I also note that some of the discussion of this request is occurring away from here, on the talk pages of some of the uninvolved editors who have responded.) I think all those uninvolved editors are Misplaced Pages community administrators and that they have said all that needs to be said about this request. On my part, I will go back to article content editing because I am here to build an encyclopedia and have plenty of volunteer work to do without being bogged down in pettifogging.

Thank you to everyone for your time and effort in commenting here. Your comments are helpful to me for better understanding how to collaborate with other editors, whether new or experienced, in making sourced edits to article content on topics that continue to be controversial both on- and off-wiki. I have notified a few other editors who are familiar with the thread(s) named in the request for arbitration enforcement that this discussion is going on. One has already kindly told me by user talk page comment that he feels he hasn't observed enough of my editorial behavior to comment one way or the other. I am taking all comments here to heart. In all cases in which edits may be controversial or subject to more than one behavioral interpretation, we can all discuss with one another on the article talk pages (and my user talk page is always open for comments) how to understand one another. As before, all of you are especially welcome to recommend sources about human intelligence or about human biology for the shared source lists. Looking up sources is very enjoyable and a great way to improve Misplaced Pages articles. I'm happy to do source citation typing and verification so that all wikipedians can uphold core Misplaced Pages policies and build an encyclopedia together.

Suggested disposition: dismiss request for enforcement Taking note of the statements of several arbiters in a request for clarification attached to another ArbCom case (raising issues closely related to this request for enforcement), I will not comment further here in the interest of getting back to work building an encyclopedia. The editors who participated in the article edits or talk pages mentioned in this request have still not been exhaustively notified by the editor who made the request. But the editors who have replied here or on user talk pages, and the uninvolved editors who have commented directly on this request, seem to be in agreement that there is no editor conduct issue on my part that needs any administrator intervention. I was glad to hear the point of view of several editors who have newly appeared on Misplaced Pages since the ArbCom case decision, and I pledge to work collaboratively with any editor to improve article text all over Misplaced Pages. I am always open to calmly discussing improvements in article text with other editors. I especially like looking up sources and verifying sources and checking that sources are not fudged and ensuring that Misplaced Pages article text is edited according to Misplaced Pages sourcing guidelines. My friendly suggestion to uninvolved administrators looking on here, bearing in mind that ArbCom has already decided discretionary sanctions related to this case, is to look at the edits, keep in mind the comments of experienced editors (both involved and uninvolved) who have looked at the request and the related threads, and dismiss the request so that we can all get back to work. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 14:38, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning WeijiBaikeBianji

• Were I uninvolved - I probably am, but better to err on the side of caution - I'd endorse Looie's comment. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:50, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

• I was told specifically by an arbitrator that doing this is not a problem if I believed someone's editing behavior needs attention via the discretionary sanctions. I was told this is only a problem if I file an excessive number of these, and this is my first (possibly only) one. Additionally, my topic ban specifically allows this, since I was told by the admin who topic banned me that this would be acceptable. When I appealed my topic ban to him in his user talk, saying that whatever decision he makes should address the problems with the editing environment that are unrelated to me, he told me "You are still free to request sanction of those other editors at arbitration enforcement; at least then one decision or another will be made." -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 22:24, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I would also like people who think I’m doing something wrong by posting about this here to read this exchange. Not only was I given permission to post here by the admin who topic banned me, but I was given permission specifically in response to requesting admin attention for the same behavior I’m reporting here, including most of the same examples/diffs.

If I actually am doing something wrong by making this report, then there’s a serious problem here with contradictory messages from admins. Since I was given permission to post here about this exact thing, I don't see how anyone could have expected me to predict that posting about it would be regarded as abusing that permission. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 00:19, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

• I've only done minimal editing in this area, but I could not help notice that unilateral moves to a POV title like that performed by WeijiBaikeBianji "Genetics and the decline of race" (a month ago, and soon reverted) cannot be constructive. Mind you, I also disagree with the naming (and scope) of Lewontin's Fallacy; POV titles aren't helpful either way. Tijfo098 (talk) 23:39, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
• WeijiBaikeBianji also supported the use of an extreme source, Steven Rose, in the lead of Heritability of IQ, . Rose commits errors of omission, for instance failing to say that heritability may or may not depend on the environment; for some genes it does but for some it doesn't. His paper has only 3 citations, so it's hardly the mainstream view, but nevertheless WeijiBaikeBianji supports citing in verbatim in the lead of an article. (Based on his biased premises, which are cited in the Misplaced Pages article, Rose concludes in his paper that heritability is a useless measure for any purpose. The only English source that found worthwhile to cite Rose's paper so far, only used it to support this sentence: "Heritability calculations are often indirect and involve simplified models of genetic versus non-genetic contributors ". By the way, a 2009 Nature paper that is obviously at odds with Rose's conclusions somehow garnered 272 citations already. I wonder why...) Tijfo098 (talk) 00:21, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it can convincingly be shown by reliable sources that Steven Rose is more extreme or makes more errors than other of the scholars used to defend the high heritability estimates such as Rushton, Jensen and Lynn. In fact I think the inclusion of Rose as a source would be a good move towards bringing some balance into the use of sources in those articles.·Maunus·ƛ· 16:44, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm new to wiki as a whole, but I read the article concerning race and intelligence and found that one edited passages concerning Richard Lynn. The edit debated Lynn's work with sources that never directly mentioned Lynn. and the discussion on the talk:

I reverted the passage back to the way it was beforehand, but WeijiBaikeBianji reverted back to the synthesized, not properly sourced edit. He stated that it was okay, but he didn't even address that it wasn't synthesis of sources that never mentioned Lynn.

By reading more into it, the only reason I could see for this is if WeijiBaikeBianji felt this synthesized paragraph supported his own beliefs. I can't be sure of anything, it just doesn't add up for me to see why someone wouldn't acknowledge the clearly sloppy style of the passage I mentioned.-SightWatcher (talk) 02:25, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Comments by Mathsci

• From what has been said by the three administrators that have commented above and below (Looie, Angus McLellan, and Timotheus Canens), the evidence presented does not show any need for enforcement (no edit warring, personal attacks, etc).

• NuclearWarfare (talk · contribs · former admin: blocks · protections · deletions · rights · meta · local rights) is currently (temporarily and voluntarily since Oct 12 ) not an administrator so strictly speaking should probably have placed his comment outside the "uninvolved administrators" section below. His topic ban on Ferahgo the Assassin still stands, but he is temporarily not an administrator.

• Ferhago the Assassin's most recent edits at the moment do not seem to be compatible with her topic ban. After getting the statements by the three uninvolved admimistrators—apparently not to her satisfaction—she canvassed a hand-picked set of editors of the articles from which she is topic-banned concerning this enforcement request. Presumably Ferahgo the Assassin was aided in the selection by Captain Occam. Far from staying away from this topic, the pair of them have sought out loopholes and possible inconsistencies between statements of administrators in order to continue the WP:BATTLE that Captain Occam was fighting "tooth and nail" (to quote Shell Kinney) against his perceived opponents at the close of arbitration. This has been been going on for over two months. The topic ban of Ferahgo the Assasin was imposed on October 10th, when she made her request to submit here. She waited two weeks to submit. At that time two of the users she canvassed had not even made their first edits on wikipedia, one appearing on October 12th and the other on October 17th ; a third is still the subject of a sock puppet investigation. Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin must be completely aware that this type of canvassing is disruptive—it looks like an attempt to "fix the jury"—and is a serious violation of their joint topic ban (per WP:SHARE), no matter what new excuses they present to justify themselves. Enough is enough: at this juncture one or both of them should now be subject to WP:ARBR&I#Enforcement. Mathsci (talk) 06:58, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Additional comments by Mathsci

Ferahgo the Assassin seems to have misunderstood what is entailed in topic bans, both for herself and others, She has been discussing directly in great detail the content of articles related to Race and intelligence, how they have been edited and who edits them. Common sense should have told her that that is exactly what her topic ban is to prevent her doing. Per WP:SHARE, the presumption now is also that these matters and indeed her general strategy here were decided jointly with Captain Occam, and that she is also speaking on his behalf. To suggest otherwise, after statements to this effect by multiple arbitrators, is unrealistic.

My topic ban applies only to articles and their talk pages, not to wikipedia processes. I do not discuss at all the content of articles, nor by whom or how they are edited. Ferahgo the Assassin on the other hand has been doing just that and in addition devoting her energies to lobbying multiple administrators. She has yet again suggested that the reason for this request—her wish for the subject of this request to be topic-banned—is to correct the "imbalance" resulting from the topic bans on editors like her and Captain Occam.

So far every administrator approached by Ferahgo the Assassin has told her that this request was misjudged. The best advice that can be given now is simply to withdraw the request, as she may, without prejudice. Mathsci (talk) 06:04, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Mathsci, you are currently topic banned from race & intelligence issues and since this thread has nothing to do with you, you should not be posting here. I asked for and was granted permission to post this thread from both the admin who topic banned me and one of the arbitrators. As was pointed out by T. Canens and Angus McLellan, my discussing this here would be a violation of my topic ban if I had not been given this permission. Because you have been granted no such permission, your posting here primarily to voice accusations against me is both a violation of your topic ban and a clear disregard for NW's request that editors here comment on the content of the thread, not on the legitimacy of its posting.

As I stated above, I contacted the group of users who I did specifically in response to WeijiBaikeBianji’s complaint that I had not contacted any of the other users involved in the disputes I was posting about. If WBB had not expressed a preference that I do this, I would not have done so, and what I did was contact every user who was involved in these disputes - nothing more, and nothing less. Other than WeijiBaikeBianji himself, Victor Chmara was the main person involved in the dispute over WBB’s undiscussed renames in the first two examples I provided, Maunus was the main other person involved in the dispute over WBB’s selective removal of links from BLP articles in my third example, the fourth example involved one dispute between WBB and Woodsrock and another between him and Miradre, and the fifth involved one dispute between him and me and another between him and Sightwatcher. Those are the five people who I contacted. There are a lot of users I could have contacted who were only marginally involved in these disputes but who still would have most likely agreed with me, such as Dbachmann (who accused WBB of POV-pushing in response to his undiscussed rename of the Race and genetics article) and TrevelyanL85A2 (who agreed with SightWatcher that the material WBB reinstated in my fifth example was original research). But because both of them were not the main players in these disputes, I assumed that WeijiBaikeBianji’s preference that I contact the other involved editors did not extend to them also. The group of editors who I contacted is, as far as I know, exactly the group of editors whom WBB had a desire for me to contact.

Really, your near-constant assumption of bad faith - even about the specific effort I was making to comply with WBB’s wishes regarding this request - is a pretty good example of the behavior for which you were topic banned. I notice you’re also misrepresenting the opinions of the admins who’ve commented thus far. Contrary to your claim that they think that "the evidence presented does not show any need for enforcement", none of them have yet expressed an opinion at all about whether the evidence I’ve presented is actionable under the discretionary sanctions. The only thing they’ve commented on is whether I’m within my rights by posting this thread. But now that NW has pointed out that my topic ban allows me to post here, presumably they’ll at this point they’ll be making a decision about whether it’s worth taking action about the content of this thread, including the fact that you’ve gotten involved in it. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 11:20, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Muntuwandi

My understanding is that Arbitration proceedings are the last stop in dispute resolution. Arbitration requests are accepted when the other available forums for dispute resolution such as talk pages, user talk pages and noticeboards, have been exhausted. Looking at the evidence presented by Ferahgo, I see little evidence that normal discussions on talk pages have failed to resolve some of the concerns about a few of Weiji's edits. In fact many of the edits cited by Ferahgo are becoming stale. For example, according to the revision history of the Richard Lynn article, Weiji's last edit was on the 1st of October, more than three weeks ago. Talk:Richard Lynn has also been stale since about the same time. Ferahgo's evidence relies heavily on content issues, but I see very little evidence of specific conduct issues, such as violating the 3RR, engaging in low grade edit warring or disruptively editing against consensus. I haven't agreed with all of Weiji's edits, for example I didn't agree with moving the race and genetics article, but Weiji did explain his rationale stating that there is a Britannica article The decline of “race” in science. To summarize, I believe that Ferahgo the Assassin and or Captain Occam are once again trying to circumvent their topic ban by exploiting a loophole. Since filing topic ban requests is strictly speaking not within the scope of their topic ban, it would appear that they are using this request as a means of continuing their content battles. Weiji's is a relative newcomer to Misplaced Pages. Concerns about Weiji's edits should first be addressed on talk pages and only if these discussions fail, should these concerns be escalated to other places. At present their is little evidence that normal discussions have failed to resolve these issues. The real problem here is Captain Occam and his continued gamesmanship. At some stage a software restriction may be necessary to put an end to this endless drama Wapondaponda (talk) 10:47, 24 October 2010 (UTC) Additional comments by Muntuwandi I think there is too much wikilawyering. Captain Occam and Ferahgo are topic banned from race and intelligence matters broadly construed. Since they are subject to Arbcom remedies, it is reasonable and expected that they can file Arbcom requests, especially if an arbcom request concerns their remedies. Topic bans are enforced by the community, and what constitutes a topic is a subjective decision. The boundaries of a topic are also subjective. However the topic bans are broadly construed to prevent gaming. It is the spirit of the topic ban, not the "letter of the law" that is important. In this case, Ferahgo and or Captain Occam have filed a request that does not have much in terms of specific conduct or procedural problems, but instead is filled with content jargon. In general it is appropriate for Occam and Ferahgo to file Arbcom requests, but it is inappropriate for Occam and Ferahgo to use this privilege as a means to get around their topic ban. I am concerned about Captain Occam/Ferahgo's pattern of canvassing, particularly because this strategy seems to work. It may be psychological, but whenever an editor asks another editor to comment on a matter, the comments tend to be favorable. Some editors avoid this tendency, which is commendable, but many don't. These are

• Captain Occam's user talk page contributions
• Ferahgo's user talk page contributions

There is a lot of canvassing going on, including trying to canvass Jimbo Wales. All but two of Ferahgo's user contributions are related to race and intelligence matters. Wapondaponda (talk) 20:42, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

This is arbitration enforcement, not a request for arbitration. Look at the other requests on this page - when discretionary sanctions have been authorized on an article by an existing arbcom ruling, this is the place to bring editor behavior to admin attention when one thinks that’s needed. I have also been told by both several admins and one of the arbitrators that if there was editor behavior on these articles which needed admin attention, this was where I should bring it up.

Are you ever going to do more on these articles than try to drive away the editors who disagree with you? Since the end of the arbcom case, this has been the near-exclusive purpose of your participation here. You’re not even being subtle about it, with your explicit advocacy of software restrictions. I had hoped that you'd drop this attitude when you finally managed to get me topic banned, after more than a month of your involvement here being exclusively focused on me, but nope - during the two weeks after my topic ban, all but one of your contributions in this topic area have been devoted to getting rid of Miradre next. In the past two months, you’ve only made one content edit on any of these articles that wasn’t a revert, and that was directly in response to Maunus pressuring you about it. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 11:48, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

The Britannica article (on race; there's no article with the title you claim, that's just a section in the race article) is written by anthropologist Audrey Smedley who adopts a Lewontian POV; Smedley cites Lewontin, but no other geneticists. See Lewontin's Fallacy for what other equally distinguished geneticists think. Smedley completely ignores, either willingly or by shear ignorance, any post-2000 developments in genetics. Articles like that is why Britannica is hopeless. Tijfo098 (talk) 12:05, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Noah Rosenberg's Genetic structure of human populations (Science, 2002) has over 1000 citations today. Rosenberg's paper was the proximate trigger of A.W.F. Edwards' position paper titled Lewontin's Fallacy. Something from Watson comes to my mind about "has-beens" writing the Britannica articles. Tijfo098 (talk) 12:31, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Even though I agree, let's not focus too much on content here. The relevant issue is whether these behaviors from Weiji are a problem from a conduct perspective. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 12:41, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Comments by Maunus

I do think that WeijiBaikeBianji has had some moments of bad judgment - but generally he is one of the editors that are willing to listen to all other editors and consider statements backed by sources. I don't think that this petition should be considered, especially not since the editor making it is not directly affected by WeijiBaikeBianji's behaviour as she currently is not allowed to edit in the area. If editors that actually are interacting with WeijiBaikeBianji agree with Ferahgo's judgement then they can and should start an RfC or arbitrartion enforcement case. Ferahgo doesn't need to act as protector of other editors' interests in the area that she is no longer editing - I am sure everyone there is capable of taking steps to resolve their own disputes with out help from previous participants.·Maunus·ƛ· 15:21, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

As an editor who’s been involved in these articles recently, I agree that some of WeijiBaikeBianji’s behavior seems problematic and I would like it to receive some attention from admins. I might have tried to get admin attention for it myself, but I know little about how to deal with such matters, and didn't want to cause a fuss. I would have remained silent on it, but seeing as others who have been here longer are voicing opinions against him I thought I'd toss in my two cent.

Since this thread is about an issue I would have wanted to bring up if I’d known how to, I don’t think admins should discount it just because of who it was posted by. -SightWatcher (talk) 23:48, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

since my name has been mentioned, and since WBB asked my to comment, I will say this: I agree with Maunus' assessment of the situation. I certainly do not always agree with WBB, and sometimes their judgement may be off. But there is no doubt that this is a good faith editor who is trying to collaborate with other Wikipedians. There is no need for this bureaucratic attempt to clamp down on WBB. If WBB should be out of line at some point, it will be more than enough to get an admin to issue a warning or a short block, and I have no doubt that the user will be mature and considerate enough to react to such measures. This page here, otoh, is just an attempt to resolve content disputes by wikilawyering. --dab (𒁳) 07:39, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

A warning for WBB is all that I’m looking for here. I already stated in my initial report that I don’t think a topic ban is necessary, because I think he’s capable of contributing to these articles constructively if admins could point him in the right direction about it. It’s unfortunate that so many people here are reacting to this thread as though I were devoted to getting WBB topic banned, when I’ve already stated that isn’t my intention. If this thread could be closed with a warning for WBB and nothing else, I would be satisfied that it’s accomplished its purpose. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 08:55, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

I think he has received enough feedback here already. I'm not sure what a formal warning would achieve. I've certainly seen more strong-headed editors who aren't sanctioned in any way. Tijfo098 (talk) 09:57, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

• I have to say after having told Ferhago that necessary reports were permitted, this is disappointing. This request focuses on content rather than any behavioral issues, which is clearly inappropriate both as a request and for someone who's topic banned. Additionally, canvassing isn't an appropriate way to handle these reports, and canvassing brand new accounts is remarkably suspicious. I hope that Ferhago takes everyone's advice here and stops watching the topic area. Shell 19:46, 25 October 2010 (UTC) P.S. I also found it interesting that Ferhago repeatedly asserts her right to make this report, but took other topic banned editors to task for pointing out the deficiencies. Shell 19:51, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Shell, I appreciate your input, but I have addressed all of these points already. The discretionary sanctions on these articles are intended to enforce NPOV policy, and when an editor is failing to observe this policy, it's necessary to provide examples of them doing so with diffs. When I asked permission to post this thread, these were the same concerns that I was referring to then. NW granted me permission to post an AE thread here in response to my explanation of this, which included a link to where Captain Occam described this behavior in the amendment thread, including most of the same examples and diffs covered my report.

I also explained that my contacting other involved editors was in response to Weiji wanting that. I contacted all of the other editors who had been involved in these disputes, and no one else - I'm not sure what I should have done differently. This seems like a "damned if I do, damned if I don't" situation. When I had contacted none of the other editors involved in these disputes, WeijiBaikeBianji complained that I had not contacted them, but in doing just that I get accused of canvassing.

Lastly, I think that Mathsci's comment here is inappropriate for two obvious reasons. First, I asked permission to post here and was granted it; he did no such thing. I would consider it just as inappropriate if Occam had posted here in my defense. Second, Mathsci's comments here demonstrate the same behavior his topic ban is intended to prevent, which is his incivility and battleground attitude. NW has agreed that Mathsci's posting here is a problem. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 21:13, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid you've grossly misunderstood the Arbitration ruling; it was a matter of conduct, not content. I'm concerned that once again you indicate that this was based on information from Captain Occam - each time this happens, it looks more and more as if meatpuppetry is going to be a problem here. If you'll re-read my comment where I indicated that, as far as I know, editors aren't prohibited from making reports while topic banned, I also strongly suggested that you stop monitoring the topic area and work productively elsewhere. It's disappointing that you only heeded part of my comment.

About Mathsci, I find it hard to believe that you think the advice you were given by myself and NuclearWarfare somehow only applies to you. He made some very good points about your participation here - if you find that incivil and a "battleground attitude", I'd have to suggest again that you need to spend some time understanding how really Misplaced Pages works rather than continuing with the rather skewed interpretation you've learned from Captain Occam. Shell 23:30, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Various comments by Xxanthippe.

Sigh. I had hoped that this matter was over and done with. I have to agree that WeijiBaikeBianji has shown himself to be a biased and tendentious editor of the topic. I note that MathSci is also topic banned so I am surprised to find him editing here. Xxanthippe (talk) 21:55, 25 October 2010 (UTC).

Comments by Vecrumba

Yes, there was some ruffling of feathers on some renaming, those have in the end already all been dealt with in good faith. There is no editor at the R&I and related articles who does not have an editorial POV informed by sources—as opposed to vapor-based personal opinion. I believe everyone is trying to put the recent conflict firmly in the past. The seemingly incessant stirring of the pot in the aftermath of the R&I arbitration has served only to breed new perceptions of bad faith. Really, either someone's editorial opinion is based on a fair and accurate representation of reputable sources, or not. The sooner we all get back to editing the sooner we'll be on the road again to improving content. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 15:11, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning WeijiBaikeBianji

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

I propose that this request be dismissed and the requesting party be prohibited from filing enforcement requests in this area. An editor who is topic-banned should not be filing enforcement requests unless there are clear and obvious violations, which is not the case here. Looie496 (talk) 19:39, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

• When you are topic banned, you are banned from the topic, that is, you are banned from making any edit that has anything to do with the topic. This request has a lot to do with the topic. Therefore, it is within the scope of your topic ban. And, no, this is not "necessary and legitimate dispute resolution", because this request has nothing to do with your topic ban. Really, when you are banned, you should disengage and find something else to work with. T. Canens (talk) 03:07, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

• I would disagree with the rest of you, at least in the theoretical sense. Nothing in my topic ban was meant to stop Ferahgo from filing a topic ban request. Now, I don't think that it would be wise for her to do this, and in fact think that she should abandon the topic area altogether. But I think this request should be evaluated on its own merits and the idea of preventing her from filing AE reports should only be discussed if this becomes a persistent problem. NW (Talk) 19:58, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

• This is an odd sort of request. The way I see it, Ferahgo the Assassin is unhappy with the edits that WeijiBaikeBianji has been making in the various Race and intelligence related articles but, since Ferahgo the Assassin is topic banned from this area he/she cannot directly challenge these edits on the talk pages of those articles. However, the purpose of a topic ban is to ensure that the editor has no influence on the content of the article for the duration of the ban and it is a violation of that ban to attempt to influence the content of these articles in any way. Since each and every charge above is content related, it is both improper as well as a violation for Ferahgo the Assassin to raise the issue here. I propose that this request be dismissed; Ferahgo the Assassin be warned that a topic ban, broadly construed, means that he or she should focus on content in unrelated articles, returning to this set of articles only when the topic ban is formally ended; and be formally advised that continued attempts to influence content in these articles will lead to him/her being blocked. --RegentsPark (talk) 02:34, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

• This request does not reflect well on Ferahgo. Although Weiji's edits may raise some eyebrows, they do not rise to the level of an enforcement action here. Meanwhile Ferahgo is testing the edges of her topic ban. This is not a matter of 'necessary and legitimate dispute resolution.' She should wait till the ban expires until she resumes her efforts to influence article content in this topic area. If she wants an open-ended permission to file enforcement requests that do not concern her directly, she should open a request for clarification with Arbcom. The recent comments by individual arbitrators about WP:ARBCC suggest they now take a dim view of this kind of thing. Unless she files such a clarification, I agree with RegentsPark that the closer of this AE should formally advise Ferahgo that additional filings by her on admin noticeboards may lead to a block. EdJohnston (talk) 18:49, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

• The filing party was specifically permitted by Nuclear Warfare, the administrator who initially topic-banned him, to submit this request for arbitration, so I am confused as to why there are overly-harsh calls for him to be reminded or prohibited from filing AE requests relating to the subject area he is banned from. I would disagree very strongly with attempts to sanction or formally remind the filing party on the basis that he was (misguidedly or not) told it was permissible to submit this enforcement request.

  In my experience, requests for enforcement submitted by a not-uninvolved filing party are often derailed by conversation about whether the filing party ought to be sanctioned for submitting the AE complaint. It would be wrong to allow this thread to take that course, and we should now re-examine the merits of the actual complaint. If the filing party had done something that would warrant him being sanctioned, then a separate thread should be devoted to that issue; in my opinion, he has not, and so that would be unnecessary. But informal, off-the-record guidance on whether he should in future be filing AE requests relating to this particular topic area might be warranted; and that should be held on the filing party's talk page—not here. Respectfully, AGK 18:55, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

  • I agree that we can't sanction the user simply for the act of filing this request, given NW's explicit permission. I do, however, have serious reservations about whether the exception is a good idea in the first place, and I think it may be a good idea to remove that exception. T. Canens (talk) 22:07, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
• Let me add a pointer here to WP:RFAR#Request for clarification: WP:ARBR&I. Looie496 (talk) 21:15, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Marknutley

Mbz1

SonofSetanta

Cla68

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Cla68

User requesting enforcement

TS 11:03, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Cla68 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Climate_change#Climate_change:_discretionary_sanctions

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Climate_change#Cla68_topic-banned

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 12:56, 24 October 2010 Makes comment at Request for Clarification attacking another topic-banned editor. Continued battlefield conduct.
2. 13:31, 24 October 2010 Comments at an arbitration enforcement request about another topic-banned editor. Introduces a grievance concerning an earlier discussion on climate change in which he was not an involved party. Continued battlefield conduct (see Finding 18, "Cla68's battlefield conduct".) Boundary-testing his topic ban.
3. 05:12, 26 October 2010 Makes comment at Request for Clarification attacking the starter of the thread and excusing an earlier attack by saying "me and the others you mention were invited here by the filing party".
4. 10:05, 26 October 2010 In reply to warning about continued involvement from Tony Sidaway (filer of this request), accuses that editor of "bad faith efforts to try to draw me back into the CC dispute so you can use it to criticize me...No one has caused more unnecessary drama since the CC case closed than you." Continued battlefield behavior and assumptions of bad faith.
5. 10:12, 26 October 2010 Acknowledges arbitrator Carcharoth's advice but at same time accuses Tony Sidaway of "baiting" him. Continued battlefield behavior and assumptions of bad faith.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. 13:31, 24 October 2010 Informed of topic ban and discretionary sanctions by Dougweller (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), the arbitration clerk who closed the case.
2. 00:25, 24 October 2010 Formal notification Tony Sidaway (talk · contribs) of Request for Clarification following concerns about ongoing boundary-testing by topic-banned editors.
3. 09:57, 26 October 2010 Warning on continued skirting of topic ban, from Tony Sidaway (talk · contribs)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

"We really mean it" block if necessary for the enforcement of the topic ban.

Warning about continued assumptions of bad faith and other battlefield conduct.

Warning of discretionary sanctions.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

See arbitrators' comments at the Request for Clarification I filed on the continued boundary testing in the topic ban. Cla68 was one of about a dozen topic-banned editors affected by the Request for Clarification.

See also community sentiment expressed at WP:AN on a thread about continued battlefield conduct and skirting the topic ban.

I find Cla68's continued editing of his essay Misplaced Pages:Activist, which seems to amount to a psychological description of fellow topic-banned editor User:William M. Connolley, concerning, but that could just be me. During his recent involvement in the climate change topic area, Cla68 referred to a bruising encounter at Talk:Global warming during his early days as an editor, and I worry that he may have developed a personal obsession with him.

Filer, subject and many of the admins are in three different timezones throughout the globe so expect slow response times.

I've fixed the order of the diffs (not that I can see that it matters). I'd like to refer the uninvolved admins to Principle 6 of the arbitration, "Casting aspersions." This was an ongoing and very corrosive feature of the topic area prior to the arbitration.

ATren is also a topic-banned editor.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

11:04, 26 October 2010

Discussion concerning Cla68

Statement by Cla68

For some reason, Tony Sidaway put the diffs out of time order above. I'll leave it up to you to decide why he might do that. Did you also notice that he tries to say that my editing an essay is somehow tied to this? Anyway....

Besides this exchange on my talk page, I have honored my topic ban. I removed all the CC articles from my watchlist. Out of the blue, however, on 24 October, Tony Sidaway left this notification on my talk page. Notifications, as we know, are customarily open invitations for interested editors to observe and comment on a proposed action. Following up on the notification, I commented on the topic under discussion, the diff of which Tony has placed out of time order above. I understood at that time that dispute resolution about an arbcom decision is ok on arbcom case pages, even on topic banned editors because arbcom was the body which had imposed the sanction in the first place.

Soon after, Tony started an enforcement action on Marknutley, up above here. I was genuinely curious as to whether it was allowable for topic banned editors to participate in dispute resolution discussions involving other editors invoved with the CC articles. The reason I was curious, is because I had observed Tony make some false accusations against ATren in an WP:AN thread, and then had refused to withdraw the accusations when both ATren and WMC had told him he was badly mistaken. I wondered, in that case, if it was ok for other topic banned editors to get involved to try to make sure that the allegations were withdrawn. So, I asked for clarification, and amplified my reason in the diff that Tony Sidaway placed out of time order above.

After TenofAllTrades criticized me and others for participating in the thread, I pointed out to him that Tony had invited us to do so. Judging by Tony's comments above and on my talk page, Tony apparently took exception to this. In my response to Tony's criticism, I gave him some honest, forthright criticism in return, and offered to help him expand and improve any non-CC articles. I then replied to Carcharoth on the clarification page, admitting that I was having trouble taking his advice not to respond to Tony's provocations on my talk page.

So, none of my comments have been outside of the ArbCom pages, my own talk page, or Tony's page (I crossposted my response). Tony appears to be trying to escalate the dispute, for reasons I can only speculate at. Unfortunately, this doesn't appear to be the only dispute that Tony has tried to escalate recently (see below and recent threads at AN). Perhaps a prohibition on both of us interacting with each other might be in order? I would gladly accept that, as all of this has taken me away from work I was busy doing on an article that me and another editor are trying to get ready for Featured Article nomination. Cla68 (talk) 12:08, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Cla68

I would like to make one comment here: I have not touched the CC topic area in months, nor have I initiated interaction with any editors with whom I've had conflict, yet TS has placed three notifications on my talk page in the last week . Others have received similar notifications for issues not involving them, including Cla68. How are we supposed to detach when Tony keeps drawing us back in for no reason? The AE clarification was so vaguely worded by Tony that I honestly had no idea if I should respond. He also notified a dozen other editors of that vague request (see diffs here), most of whom are uninvolved.

Tony is the one stirring the pot here. He is overreacting to minor (or even non-existent) issues, drawing people like Cla68 and other back in. And now he is reporting Cla68 for responding! I am asking the admins/arbs involved in this enforcement to please remove Tony from what appears to be his self-appointed role as enforcer of these sanctions. This will be my last comment here. ATren (talk) 12:05, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I find the evidence of continuing battlefield conduct particularly strong, but if two uninvolved administrators assess this as a non-infringement and none is going to firmly support the claim of infringement I'll leave it there. --TS 12:32, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

• Cla68's comments cited by TS are not optimal, but I think that this request is premature. Parties to the decision need to be asked to desist before something like this is initiated, and also I feel that the decision itself was vague on "bordeerline" issues so that it doesn't seem fair to come down hammer and tong on this user. ScottyBerg (talk) 17:07, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Cla68

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

I'm just not seeing any violation here. Cla68 was a named party in a request for clarification, a request he responded to. Maybe the responses weren't as civil as could be desired, but I'm not comfortable ruling this as a violation of the topic ban, since it was on an ArbCom page as a listed party to a request for clarification concerning the case that resulted in the editor's topic ban. Courcelles 12:00, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Comment: I agree with this assessment by Courcelles (talk · contribs). Cheers, -- Cirt (talk) 12:09, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

• I'm on the fence about this one. While we do need to send a strong message to parties to knock it off, I don't think the evidence above makes a strong case for applying sanctions. If somebody else presents more solid evidence I may be swayed, but for now I don't see the need to issue a block. The Wordsmith 12:18, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
• ArbCom is perfectly able to maintain order on its own pages if it so desires. I don't see a need for us to intervene here. T. Canens (talk) 12:46, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
• Agree with T. Canens; we don't need to take any action here. PhilKnight (talk) 14:15, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
• Although I believe that the diffs presented warrant sanctions, I also agree with the admins above that it is for the arbitration committee or its clerks to make that decision. CIreland (talk) 21:02, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by SonofSetanta

Brews ohare

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Brews ohare

User requesting enforcement

Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 17:16, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Brews ohare (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Speed of light#Motions (Motion 6). See also Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive70#Brews ohare, where Brews was admonished for similar violations, but was not blocked because the violation was deemed to be too old by the time discussion was closed. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 17:26, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. (Self evident, but see comment, which has more)
2. Oliver Heavyside, English engineer/physicist who did a lot work in the early days of electromagnetism

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Done when moving the thread to AN/I

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Indef block. This has gone long enough.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

When I saw Brews ohare edit Talk:Global warming (see ) I thought, oh crap not again, why doesn't he display some level of clue. I loaded up WP:AE, started filing the request, and then said "fuck it" I'm tired of being here every two weeks, and some will argue it's in the gray zone, etc. Then earlier today, Brews posted several times on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Physics (see , , , , ). So again I loaded up WP:AE and started filing a request. Then I thought "Do I really want another 4 weeks long wikilawyering mess about Brews not understanding the bounds of his ban, or that he wasn't "properly warned" or some other fine-print related argument. So I thought I'd defuse the whole thing instead by sending it to WP:ANI (, , ). After all, he reported a very subtle form of vandalism, so I thought a little IARing with regards to usual arbcom rules which mandates and total, complete and utter ban, no exceptions from the topic.

However Brews started talking about complaining content issues once again (see , gets warned , the wikilawyers about it ).

Brews just doesn't get it, and this time there is no possible "but I didn't know" or "but I thought this wasn't covered by the ban" or whatever "I didn't mean it that way" defense. If we give an inch per WP:AGF (like I just did), he'll take a mile (like he just did). I'm really fucking tired of this crap. Indef block him. Or alternatively block him for the rest of his ban. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 17:16, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Edit: And on top of that, he recently edited Oliver Heaviside (), an article on a famous English physicist who did a lot of pioneering work in the early days of electromagnetism. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 17:42, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Brews ohare

Statement by Brews ohare

Comments by others about the request concerning Brews ohare

There are a few other edits in recent days where Brews tested the limits of the topic ban. See and . In the first, the discussion at WP:NOR/N is a physics-related discussion - editors are talking about the Lorentz force and Maxwell equations and sources related to them. The second is arguably be the grey area since it is the biography article for Heaviside (and after an ec I see that Headbomb has also mentioned this edit). But the section in which Brews edited is almost exclusively about Heaviside's innovations in physics and electromagnetic theory. It appears like a case of the Camel's nose, where he was able to push up against the boundaries of his topic ban in these isolated instances far from the view of those aware of his ban, and then, since those edits didn't lead to any repercussion, he pushed further by editting on WP:PHYS. --FyzixFighter (talk) 17:47, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Brews ohare

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Blocked for one week before I saw this report. I think the maximum block length is now 1 year under the enforcement provisions, so the next block will probably be at least 2 weeks. T. Canens (talk) 17:28, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Seriously? One week? For a repeat offender who spends all his time trying to find the edges of his various bans so he can sneak around them? The next block should be a severe escalation, not just two weeks. How long are we expected hold Brews' hand and pretend he isn't voluntarily breaking his topic ban again and again? Beeblebrox (talk) 19:08, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

William M. Connolley

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning William M. Connolley

User requesting enforcement

EngineerFromVega (talk) 19:09, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

William M. Connolley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate_change#William_M._Connolley_topic-banned

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. Encouraging others to meatpuppet on his behalf after getting a topic ban for climate change articles.
2. Creating a new section on talk page to bypass the Arbcom ruling and to advocate meatpuppetry.
3. One more.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Warning by Coren (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
2. Warning by EngineerFromVega (talk · contribs)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Confirmation that he is to keep well away from the climate change area and to stop encouraging meatpuppetry using his talk page.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

As per this edit by Awickert, it is evident that WMC is using his talk page to encourage others to edit climate change articles.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified on 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Discussion concerning William M. Connolley

Statement by William M. Connolley

Comments by others about the request concerning William M. Connolley

Given that the filer has a grand total of 63 edits (at this time), I have a hard time seeing this as a good faith action. This impression is further reinforced by the fact that his "warning" was this morning, but the youngest listed diff was yesterday. And I can imagine no interpretation by which can be considered "encouraging others to meatpuppet", nor do I see any evidence of meatpuppetry. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:35, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Here is WMC's reply . EngineerFromVega (talk) 21:22, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Re Beeblebrox: Sorry, but you are wrong. "Editors topic-banned by the Committee under this remedy are prohibited (1) from editing articles about Climate Change broadly construed and their talk pages; (2) from editing biographies of living people associated with Climate Change broadly construed and their talk pages; and (3) from participating in any Misplaced Pages process relating to those articles." Edits to ones own talk page are not forbidden. A number of Arbs have have suggested that it is better for all topic-banned editors to step away farther from the topic (and I tend to agree), but several have also pointed out that there is no actual violation in such edits. I'm also appalled by the hectic speed. MN at least got a chance to reply. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:40, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Both the committee and the community have made it abundantly clear that topic ban is to be interpreted very broadly and blocks are to be used liberally to enforce it. The spirit of the ban is being trampled on Mr. Connolley's talk page. There is no need to discuss with him first as he was a participant in the discussion at the ArbCom noticeboard in which numerous users, admins, and arbitrators made all of this clear. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:47, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

"Liberally" does not equal "arbitrarily". --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:42, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Per my comment above re Cla68, I agree that a block of WMC is premature and excessive, as the issue of what constitutes improper conduct hasn't been determined as of yet. I see that a clarification request is proceeding on that point right now. ScottyBerg (talk) 19:44, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Clarification has been given again and again. The named users in the topic ban are to completely avoid touching anything even remotely related to CC. Period. Perhaps you missed the recent conversations at the ArbCom noticeboard and the WP:AE where this was clearly stated in those terms by dozens of people, including arbitrators. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:54, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I've been away for a few days, but all I see on the AE page currently is a request for enforcement against Cla68, and no interest in action being taken against him for actions at least as problematic as what WMC has done. There is also a request for clarification pending and not concluded. ScottyBerg (talk) 20:23, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

That's not what the topic ban says - it specifically lists articles, associated talk pages, bios and their talk pages and process pages. It does not list user talk pages. If that's what the ArbCom meant, they could have included it. They were asked about this point, so unless they missed the question, it wasn't an oversight. I think the ban should include user talk pages, but if it doesn't an editor should not be sanctioned for following the rules.--SPhilbrickT 20:15, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

MN was found to have violated the topic ban - he edited a Misplaced Pages process thread which related to CC. Tangentially enough that I think he deserved a little slack, but that's a different issue. WMC posted on his talk page, and the topic ban does not prohibit that. "Broadly construed" is not intended to mean it can cover areas not listed in the topic ban, it means no one can edit a weather article, then wikilawyer to say that weather is not climate. "Broadly construed" means the subject of climate is to be broadly construed.--SPhilbrickT 20:21, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

By the way, whose sockpuppet is User:EngineerFromVega? My Magic 8 Ball says "open proxy," but it would be interesting to know for certain. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 20:16, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

-of no one. EngineerFromVega (talk) 21:25, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

This block is stupid, because William can still post on his talk page. Nothing would stop William posting some more links to CC articles. As things stand now, we still depend on William to notify us of Scibaby edits on some CC pages. That we can do without William doesn't mean that right now we don't need him. It may take a week or so before enough editors are there to check all the CC articles.

Per WP:IAR, William is morally obliged to ignore the fundamentalistic interpretation of the topic ban given by some here and post links to vandalized articles in a discrete way (like on his talk page). Sticking to the topic ban means that he does not revert the acts of vandalisms himself. Count Iblis (talk) 20:37, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

• Wrong, wrong wrong. Morally obliged? Do you guys see what we are up against now? The community has spoken, they want this dealt with harshly and they don't want any of this end-run bullshit. I don't know how anyone who has been following this could still honestly claim that they do not see the very clear consensus that all named parties are to completely avoid anything related to CC. Take it to a wider forum or back to ArbCom if you want, I think you will find that there is broad agreement that a hardline approach is warranted. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:41, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

  Unless you're politically well-connected, like Cla68, in which you can continue lobbying for sanctions against other editors while the arbs and admins turn a blind eye. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 20:47, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Moo said the mob, or at least a small and noisy part of it. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:46, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

If that is going to be the level of discourse here, I will simply state that I have no intention of reversing myself and move on to other matters. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:49, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Let's try to raise the level then. As Sphilbrick has pointed out, the topic ban has explicitly listed what kind of pages are off limit - user talk pages are not in that list. In the clarification discussion, Coren carefully distinguished between things editors must not do and things they should not do. All Arbs commenting later agree with this comment. If this distinction has to have any value, then the one that things that must not be done are sanctionable, while things that should not be done are not. You block is neither justified by the original decision nor by the clarification. The sentiment of the community or even ArbCom may well be that the topic ban should have been more encompassing, but fact is that it is not. So your block is unjustified. It's also not preventative (as it does not prevent William from suggesting things on his talk page), but purely punitive. And blocking an editor for an edit in which he points out a BLP violation is really a really really bad idea. As is blindly following suggestions by a likely sock. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:02, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

(e/c)Can you point me to where the Arbs concluded, despite the fact that the topic ban does not mention user talk pages, that talk pages are included? (There are far too many words on this subject, but I can't find that discussion.) I'm amazed that a two week block is being enacted, without a link to anything proscribing such behavior.--SPhilbrickT 21:05, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

While the letter of the ban does not specifically indicate user talkpages, the spirit of the ban is that all banned parties should completely back away from the topic area. It doesn't specifically list the Template: or Category: namespaces, either, but if one of the banned users started edit warring over a climate change template, they would be blocked without hesitation. The Wordsmith 21:09, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Coren specifically said "suggesting" edits is "without breaking the letter of the ruling", and that the ruling would have to be amended if that type of edit should be included. You can't block someone for an action specifically identified by an Arb as not covered. If someone wants to warn an editor and declare that while talk pages were not in the ban, they are now—I'd support a block for a subsequent violation. But not before such a warning.--SPhilbrickT 21:23, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

If one carefully reads the comments on the Notification and Clarification pages, you see that the people who argue in favor of the "hardline approach", completely ignore the nature of the problems William was giving notifications too, in fact construing this as being engaged in the topic area in a problematic way, while in fact he was giving notifications of edits that needed to be reverted. He did that a day after the edits were made, so, it was likely it was not noted by anyone at all as a problematic edit.

I have to say that if I were running a website like Misplaced Pages and I were the only Admin, I would actually block the people who are dishonest and fight personal disputes instead of seriously contributing to Misplaced Pages. Count Iblis (talk) 21:09, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I was preparing a request of this sort but somebody else beat me to it. None of the reasons given by William M. Connolley and his apologists here come close to excusing his refusal to disengage from the topic. I didn't start the request for clarification arbitrarily; it was primarily from observing his behavior and surmising that others (irrespective of faction) would see him getting away with it and be tempted to push the envelope. This tendency has to be nipped in the bud wherever it is spotted. Having said that I would prefer it if the wider community took the lead in filing enforcement reports. --TS 21:30, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Wordsmith's comment below. I am deeply ambivalent about classifying this block as falling within the "wide discretion allowed by the topic ban", when the letter of the ban (which the ArbCom deliberately and unusually chose to specifically scope in their findings) does not include user talk pages. Where administrators are allowed wide discretion is in the application of discretionary sanctions under a separate portion of the remedies. However, the discretionary sanctions require users to be engaged in disruptive or counterproductive behaviour not in the interests of the project (which WMC's edits do not seem to be), and that the user receive a clear warning before a block is applied under those sanctions.

What has happened here is that a well-meaning but overzealous administrators has msinterpreted and misapplied the case remedies in a draconian fashion, with the effect of punishing WMC for making an effort to respect the ArbCom's ruling while still contributing positively to the project in his area of expertise. As a further regrettable side effect, this block has rewarded WMC's opponents for stirring up this unnecessary conflict across multiple noticeboards in a way that is well beyond the spirit (and often letter) of their own restrictions. This is a very unfortunate precedent. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:34, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

WMC was well aware some time ago that the ban was going to be broadly interpreted and the penalties harsh. I and others told him and the other parties to expect this during the recent conversations at the arbcom noticeboard talk page. He is not supposed to be trying to contribute in his area of expertise. Period. I feel like a broken record here, ArbCom and the wider community have made their feelings clear enough, and WMC and others are choosing to try and find ways around the decision. It has got to stop, and it will be stopped. Again I suggest you ask ArbCom directly if you don't want to take my word for it. There is actually no need to ask the community as that has already been done and the answer was wide support for treating anything that approached the general area of CC harshly. If these opponents you speak of are also violating the ban, please report that here, I am not on anyone's side in this and I'm perfectly willing to block anyone else who is trying to skirt the edges of this ban. My one and only interest here is in putting an end to this drama. Talking for several months didn't work. Warning them not to try and find holes in the ban didn't work. Blocking is all we have left. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:46, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

A way forward

The discretionary sanctions regime in this case give administrators great leeway in restoring order and even gives guidance matching conduct to appropriate sanctions. These sanctions may be applied by any uninvolved administrators of their own volition, which means no prior process on any noticeboard is necessary. All that is required before an administrator acts is a "cease and desist" message on the editor's talk page.

That's all that is needed. Remove the block, issue a cease and desist, and if it happens again, block.--SPhilbrickT 21:39, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

This action doesn't enforce the discretionary sanctions, but the topic ban. In addition to the arbitration decision in which they were told they were topic banned, all topic-banned editors have been treated to the unusually explicit statements of the community (at WP:AN), the arbitration committee (at Request for Clarification) and the uninvolved admins (here in the Mark Nutley case yesterday) saying with one voice: "We Meant It!" --TS 21:45, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning William M. Connolley

This is cut and dried. The topic ban is to be broadly interpreted, and this edit violates it. I'm off to block Mr. Connolley for the next two weeks. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:30, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Generous. I was typing up an opinion to go for the full month the decision allows, this was such a complete and flagrant disregard of the ban. Courcelles 19:33, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Marknutley just got the same, so I figured we'd use two weeks as a starting point. I'm more than willing to escalate for repeat offenders. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:36, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I concur with the block reason and the length (since Marknutley got the same it makes a good starting point). FloNight♥♥♥♥ 19:53, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• I'm on the fence about this as well. While WMC should desist from any activities related to climate change, notifying users about vandalism is undoubtedly a good thing. That he posted on his talkpage instead of reverting himself indicates that he intended to comply with at least the letter of the ban. It appears to be a moot point now, but the block does appear to have been within the wide discretion allowed by the topic ban. The Wordsmith 20:51, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Marknutley

Moved from WP:AN, 20:08, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Marknutley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – mark (talk) 11:55, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

The current block

Administrator imposing the sanction

Courcelles (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Statement by Marknutley

I think this block is atrocious. There is no justification for a block based on my commenting on an ANI discussion. And most certainly not a two week block for what was essentially a mistake.

I suspect those who supported a block did not even look at what i had written at ANI Not even commenting on CC is it? The discussion was including edit events from these.

• April 2009: ANI discussion which resulted in a block. The block was reduced when he showed remorse and an intent to improve .
• August 2009: He was again blocked for edit warring and again promised to desist in the future . His block was again reduced.
• July 2010: Personal attacks (deleted edit), which resulted in a block.
• October 2010: Petty vandalism when questioned about recent reverts (archived discussion).
• My block for 3RR on William Connelley.

Is my comment really worthy of a two week block, especially as sideaways said he just wanted clarification? I withdrew voluntarily from the CC articles over 6 weeks before the case even finished, and have not touched one since, does this count for naught? come on. mark (talk) 15:40, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Moved from Mark's talk page to AN. NW (Talk) 18:25, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

N.B. No editor who has been a protagonist in the CC fracas should comment here.--Scott Mac 18:45, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Marknutley

The CC dispute must end - entirely and completely. Those editors in dispute must stop disputing - entirely and completely. We can manage the CC topic without them, and we can deal with any problematic behaviour from any editor involved in that fracas without any comment from other editors involved in that fracas. Our patience is exhausted. Editors who have been causing the problems need to go totally out of their way to bodyswerve any discussion that's even remotely related. Editors failing to get this, or pushing anywhere near the boundary of it, take the consequences on their own heads. Zero-tolerance.

Does Marknutley get this? If he does, then perhaps we can remove this block - but it is the last time for any lienancy.--Scott Mac 18:42, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

One of the main reasons I agreed on the block is that while Mark is generally well-meaning, he has no concept of where the boundaries are. HE pushed the limits of prior sanctions that had been placed upon him, and it is likely that this fiasco is another attempt to do that. This, it is apparant that he doesn't get it, and the block is necessary. The Wordsmith 19:26, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

This appeal is in the wrong place. Per WP:ARBCC remedy 1.2, sanctions may be appealed "to the appropriate noticeboard (currently Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement)". I recommend that somebody move it there.  Sandstein  20:01, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Since he was blocked as a result of an AE report, I feel that it would be unfair to make him appeal to the same noticeboard. But it looks like it doesn't matter. NW (Talk) 20:05, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, the instructions are pretty clear. I'll be moving it now.  Sandstein  20:07, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

• I agree that the action is sanctionable, but I also think two weeks is too much, though. I also find it depressing that from the wide range of possible discretionary sanctions, apparently blocks are the only ones that are ever considered. To me, this seems to be playing to the crowd, not considering what is likely to work well. In particular, Mark has always acted like a rhino in a China shop - without malice, but energetic and potentially destructive. I don't think a block alone is able to change this. What is needed is a clearer explanation of the limits, as e.g. possible with the power to enact a stricter topic ban as enabled by the discretionary sanctions. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:16, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
• I am not seeing any cogent argument that the block was improper, nor any good reason the block shouldn't be concluded. Sometimes it sucks to be the first person to get one's knuckles rapped for being over the line, but that doesn't change the line's position. Jclemens (talk) 21:59, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by Marknutley

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Keep it on and keep taking this exact same approach. The time for any tendency toward leniency is long past. Let this be a message to the rest of the named parties. Come even that close to anything CC related and you will get the same. It's over, you are all topic banned. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:19, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
• I agreed to the block as a compromise, and the reason for that block stands. Mark has repeatedly shown he doesn't know where the line is; now all the involved editors know. When he was under a restriction against adding sources, he continually pushed the boundaries of it. It would appear that the case that resulted in this block was another attempt to do so, with the topic ban. I continue to endorse the block. The Wordsmith 19:24, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
• Fully support the block. There was nothing unclear about ArbCom's requirement for the editors sanctioned to stay away from anything involving CC whatsoever. This is a clear message that pushing those boundaries will not be tolerated. Seraphimblade 19:28, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
• Endorse block - it was quite clear that the 1RR proposal was meant to deal with Climate Change issues, so Mark shouldn't have gotten involved. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:29, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
• Agree with block reason and length. The Community wants the topic banned users to stay completely away from anything related to the subject including all matters that are related. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 20:16, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
• Just a note, since I didn't see it above: the text of the topic ban can be viewed here. The phrase "...participating in any Misplaced Pages process relating to those articles" appears to be the key one. Protonk (talk) 20:35, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by William M. Connolley

This is an appeal of the enforcement from the #William M. Connolley section above.

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

William M. Connolley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – William M. Connolley (talk) 21:17, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

Banned means leave it alone, entirely. No exceptions. is the one that Beeblebrox has made up.

Administrator imposing the sanction

Beeblebrox (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

WMC is blocked, so I have done this for him. The Wordsmith 22:12, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Statement by William M. Connolley

The arbcomm sanctions do not apply to a user's own talk page, therefore this block is invalid

Statement by Beeblebrox

I didn't make anything up. The community and ArbCom have made it clear they want this topic ban interpreted as broadly as possible and that the liberal use of blocks is the preferred enforcement remedy. This kind of testing the waters is exactly what they were warned not to do just last week in the conversation at the ArbCom noticeboard. I was fully prepared to be attacked by WMC's army of fans and apologists over this, but I don't actually see any need for me to repeat myself any further as I have made my position abundantly clear already. I will not be reversing this block. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:51, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by William M. Connolley

I agree with Beeblebrox that the community and the Arbs want a liberal use of blocks. However, in Roger Davies own words "All that is required before an administrator acts is a "cease and desist" message on the editor's talk page." Emphasis added.

There is no gray area concerning whether talk pages are in scope or out of scope. Arbitrator Coren explicitly said they were out of scope. That doesn't mean an uninvolved admin can't block based upon a talk page comment, it simply means that a warning is required first. Actions clearly within the scope (such as MN's post) do not require such warning.

The words are quite clear. And we are wasting too much time on this. If we follow the process as outlined by the arbs - block immediately for actions clearly in scope, warn then block for actions an involved admin feels are undesirable, we will be fine. WMC should be unblocked.--SPhilbrickT 22:00, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

• Sustain the action. It is WMC who has hallucinated the implication that a topic ban does not apply to an editor's own talk page. Jclemens (talk) 22:02, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I made much the same point (as Sphilbrick) earlier today, before this case was filed, in the AE case against Cla68. I felt that case was premature because he hadn't been warned, and because the margins of the topic ban were hazy. I feel the situation is the same here, only more so because of the severity of the block and because his actions were neither disruption nor battlefield. ScottyBerg (talk) 22:04, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I point to what I wrote above and endorse Sphilbrick's comment. Yes, ArbCom has "topic banned", but they have also (maybe unwisely) defined what that means in this case. I fail to understand how someone can in good faith read this as including non-provocative, helpful comments on the users own talk page, especially not after the ArbCom clarification. Mind-reading what the community or what ArbCom want, on the other hand, is not a useful bases for any kind of process. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:26, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

FWIW it looked grey to me, because the community supports strange rules on user talk pages, they were not mentioned explicitly in an explicit list and pushing stuff undercover is worse. So yes B can interpret it this way but as it is grey a cease and desist was needed. Might well reach the same outcome a few minutes later but the process was short-circuited. --BozMo talk 22:35, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

@various pther admins below. It is very hard to argue that from participating in any Misplaced Pages process relating to those articles unambiguously covers discussion on user talk pages. It just isn't clear --BozMo talk 22:38, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Let's face it. The whole point of the arbcom case was to get WMC's head on a pike; all the other stuff was just window dressing. This was so blindingly obvious that the so-called "vandal version" of the decision, released before the arbs even got around to their first proposal, was nearly identical in substance to the final decision.

The bottom line is that WMC is going to get kicked around for whatever real or imagined offense folks can come up with. If he says "got to work late today because there was a bad storm" someone will leap at the chance to block him for using the word "storm," which they will contend is climate-related "broadly construed." Since he's guilty no matter what there's no real incentive to reform. Why don't you just indef block him from the project and be done with it? Or is the goal to prolong the drama? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 22:41, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I read Coren's statement as admitting that the current language of the relevant Arb remedy does not strictly address user talk pages. In that sense the language of the enacted remedy was more narrow than what is commonly understood by "topic ban". I also read the Arb statements (1, 2) as indicating that this technical loophole was unintentional, and if forced to do so they would amend the Arb remedies to fill the gap. Which from my point of view answers the issue, and user talk page posts relating to climate change are not okay. It appears to be within the scope of the discretionary sanctions to address this, and so a full amendment by Arbcom is probably unnecessary (though it might be helpful, for clarity and to demonstrate consensus among Arbcom members). The only caveat I would add is that since there could have been plausible confusion about whether this behavior was technically okay or not okay, it might be reasonable to unblock WMC this once with the understanding that similar edits in the future will lead to blocks. In addition, others topic banned in this case should probably receive an explicit warning about the use of user talk pages if this is how we plan to interpret the issue going forward. Dragons flight (talk) 22:54, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Can those who says I'm mistaken point out the mistake?

• Coren clearly states that "suggesting" edits (which is even stronger than what WMC was doing) is outside the scope of the ban, and would require an amendment to include.
• Roger concurs, and goes onto suggest how to properly handle this situation.
• Shell "agree with the opinions of my colleagues above" so no dissent there.
• Carcharoth says "I agree with the responses by Newyorkbrad, Coren and Roger Davies."

I don't see any wiggle room. I believe the topic ban should have included user talk pages, I'm stunned that it did not, but as user talk pages were the subject of extensive discussion, it's not like it was an oversight (as, say templates might be). I'd be happy if some or several arbs chimed in and said, we intend talk pages to be included in the ban. Then going forward, they would be in the ban. However, the present request is for someone to explain how several arbs explicitly concurred with Coren, and none dissented, yet we've enact a block against someone who followed the rules.--SPhilbrickT 23:19, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Everyone, let's reboot our brains in safe mode, remove the ArbCom spyware, make appropriate changes to the system registry and then take fresh look. Only then will the following comments sink in. So, here we go: Edits on userspace are not part of Misplaced Pages processes. It doesn't matter one iota whether William posts a comment on his userspace, his personal blog, The Misplaced Pages Review, or any other cyber-public venue. Also think about the logic of blocking an editor who violates the topic to make sure he/she doesn't do it again. Does that logic apply here? Is William now constrained from posting links on his userspace? Even if he were to be blocked from editing his userpsace, nothing would stop him from posting links on his personal blog.

Conversely, if William had done as Beeblebrox and some others demand, he could have posted on his blog a few months later how bad the ArbCom ruling is because "look at all these Scibaby edits that have accumulated during the last 3 months". That would have made him look bad, it would actually have amounted to a violation of WP:POINT by staying silent for so long. Count Iblis (talk) 23:26, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I reject the notion that WMC has a moral imperative that allows breaking the rules. First, if the moral imperative exists, then surely it mean he can do more than post to a user talk page, it means he can actually make the edit. Clearly, there is no point to a topic ban if it can be evaded that easily. Second, to the extent that WMC truly sees a wrong which needs weighting, he can email you in private, or any one of a dozen others, so on the chance that WP will burn to the ground but for WMC, that can be handled without breaking a topic ban whether narrowly or broadly construed. I don't think it helps to resolve this dispute by arguing that WMC could edit in userspace even if we did the right thing and included it in scope. This issue is quite simple - we agreed to a process, and we aren't following it. The solution is simple - follow the process - either amend the decision to include user spaces generally, or have a sysop declare that user space edits are now disallowed, and issue a warning then a block to anyone who breaks the new rule. We are spending far too much time trying to convince ourselves that the rule already says that.--SPhilbrickT 23:41, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree that process should be followed and that this issue has to be clarified. But given a precise formulation, there is always room for notification of problems. As you say, William can send emails if banned from CC related notifications on his talk page. But note that the AE request against William was motivated just on the grounds that William places notifications. If William had notified me via email of a problem and I had been fixing a problem and writen in the edit summary that I was notified by William, then a similar AE request could have been filed: "William is editing via proxies". Count Iblis (talk) 00:10, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I thank User:FloNight for the link to a relevant page explicitly discussing whether user talk pages are in scope. Relevant excerpts:

• Lar "Does it extend to user talk pages?"
• TenOfAllTrades "it does not include user talk pages"
• Arthur Rubin "discussion ... whether one climate change category is a subset of another?"
• Roger Davies "Sure... for those who want ... discretionary sanctions" (NB, discretionary sanctions require warning before block)
• Count Iblis "It seems clear to me that discussions about climate science are allowed on talk pages"
• ScienceApologist "When I was topic banned, I proposed edits all the time from my talkpage to no objections"
• Beeblebrox "just stay the hell away from anything that could be construed as even vaguely related to climate change"
• TS (responding to Beeblebrox) "t looks to me as if you've misread the discussion."
• BozMo "WMC ... can give technical comments ... seems an elegant solution."
• Arthur Rubin "user talk pages ... should be fine"
• Roger Davies "I disagree sharply with what you say about uninvited talk page comments" (implicitly accepting other talk page comments)

Caveat - I did this in only a few minutes - I attempted to use ellipses honestly, but read the whole thing, and reach your own conclusion. My summary - many people explicitly saying talk pages are OK - the only major dissent is Beeblebrox. Note especially that Davies tells us that people gaming the rules (the specific example was category talk, but could be construed to include game playing on talk pages) will be dealt with harshly, but with DS, which requires a warning. That's all I'm saying, the clear consensus is that if an admin wants to prohibit talk page comments, they can, with a warning.

I truly understand the frustration this community has with the CC issue, but read the FloNight linked page as if you didn't known about the whole issue, and tell me if you can come away clearly convinced that a talk page comments can earn a block without a warning.--SPhilbrickT 00:34, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Messy addendum: Unfortunately, I ran out of steam at the wrong point. The very next paragraph:

• Carcharoth "If we (ArbCom) had intended to allow limited discussion of sources on user talk pages, we would have made provisions for that. As we didn't, there are no provisions for that to take place."

While that strong statement undoes a lot of what came earlier, but in my view, it muddies the waters, rather than adding clarity. Arguably, they did make provision for talk page discussions, butby failing to include them on the list despite discussions. Had Coren and Davies followed up with "That's really what I meat" I'd say case closed, but they did not, so we are left with multiple clear, but conflicting statements from Arbs. (A situation easily resolved with a clear warning prior to a block.)--SPhilbrickT 01:01, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

• Just to make things extra clear, none of my comments on that matter can be construed to mean that WMC's raising issues he saw in articles in the CC area was in any way acceptable. I explicitly advised him to the contrary, in fact, and my comment in the clarification request squarely put the behavior for which he was blocked in the "should not do" camp. — Coren  00:57, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by William M. Connolley

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Receiving a topic-ban means that the topic in question is off-limits everywhere on Misplaced Pages; the arbitration committee has made this clear with regard to a number of cases on a number of occasions. They have made it clear that wiki-lawyering as to whether a particular namespace was explicitly proscribed is both unwelcome and irrelevant. I would have preferred a duration of 7 days, rather than 14, but the current duration is not excessive and I do not support overturning the sanction. CIreland (talk) 22:03, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
• SPhilbricK, You misunderstand. WMC was topic banned by ArbCom, and this is an enforcement for that remedy. He has been notified of that with the close of the case. AND Coren (and others) clarified the scope of the ban for him. Only new editors or changes need prior warning under the Discretionary sanctions. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 22:08, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Add link to thread on ArbCom Noticeboard where more than one arbitrator and some uninvolved admins clarified that the topic ban was to enforced on all pages. FloNight♥♥♥♥ 22:38, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
• As FloNight says, SPhilbricK is mistaken; WMC has been banned from participating in any Misplaced Pages process relating to those articles. PhilKnight (talk) 22:13, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
• endorse topic banned means "find a new topic" - it is not an invitation to "find a new venue for the same topic". Enough is enough.--Scott Mac 22:23, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
• Endorse Topic-banned means that area of Misplaced Pages is no longer your concern. Courcelles 22:53, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
• If WMC had indicated that he didn't know it was a violation of the ban, and would abide by the new, expanded scope of it, I would be willing to grant his appeal. However, he has declined to make such a statement, so i must reluctantly endorse the block. The Wordsmith 23:00, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
• As with the other block above, "topic ban" means "cease all participation in this area, period", not "try to find loopholes and stay involved anyway". And as above, this sends a clear message that boundary testing and lawyering will not be tolerated, and that the expectation is that the topic banned editors will stay entirely away from that topic. Seraphimblade 23:07, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
• Endorse block I do appreciate the argument that this block was outside the scope of the discretionary sanctions - if this was a court and I was a judge I'd uphold that argument. But it's not. Thankfully we have the ability to sanction conduct that is itelf designed to avoid sanctions. Good block. --Mkativerata (talk) 23:11, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Hammer of Habsburg

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Hammer of Habsburg

User requesting enforcement

— kwami (talk) 02:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Hammer of Habsburg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

WP:ARBMAC (article currently at 1RR)

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. (first revert, the limit per ARBMAC)
2. (second revert, violating 1RR)
3. (third revert)

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

• HH has been blocked twice for violating 1RR on this article.
• Chipmunkdavis warned HH to self-revert the third time.

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

whatever you feel appropriate

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

HH reverted a line in a text that I was working out with another editor, Chipmunkdavis; we are trying to come up with some text that will resolve some of the objections Croats have about the article. The line was marked 'citation needed', as the point had been in the news but needs confirmation. (Waiting for response from the EU.) — kwami (talk) 02:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Hammer of Habsburg

Statement by Hammer of Habsburg

Comments by others about the request concerning Hammer of Habsburg

Result concerning Hammer of Habsburg

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Given two fairly recent blocks, I'm blocking for a week. T. Canens (talk) 02:49, 27 October 2010 (UTC)