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Hamas and the Taliban analogy

Hamas and the Taliban analogy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log) • Afd statistics

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No such analogy has ever been claimed. This is clearly an article created to prove a point, as part of the longstanding attempt to disrupt Israel and the apartheid analogy; this article even copies the structure of the latter. RolandR (talk) 20:59, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

• Keep The article is tightly sourced and its more than clear direct parallels have been made between the Taliban and Hamas. In Israel and the apartheid analogy, very few of the sources actually use the word "analogy" when comparing Israel and South African governments. Wikifan12345 (talk) 22:07, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
• Keep. The article lists numerous scholarly sources, which in one way or another, make this specific analogy. It's unfortunate that nominator was unable to assume good faith behind the article. It may have used Israel and the apartheid analogy as a format for this article, but that should speak the strength of that article, something nominator should undoubtedly support.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 22:46, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Palestine-related deletion discussions. —RolandR (talk) 00:53, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. —brewcrewer (yada, yada) 01:09, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep The article was clearly created to make a point, but that doesn't negate the value of the article. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 02:40, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete - the comparison to the Israel and the apartheid analogy fails as there are sources actually discussing and focusing on the use of that analogy. Here, there are people who, rightly or wrongly, have compared Hamas to the Taliban. But there arent any sources actually discussing that comparison. The most cited source on that page is by a Dr Aaron Klein in the prestigious publication WorldNetDaily. Besides other sources that are misused, mostly by taking a sentence out of context, there are a bunch of people using or denying a comparison between the two. It is true that such a thing exists at the article on the apartheid analogy, but that is best dealt with by fixing that article so that it doesnt just serve as a repository of people who made the comparison. The main reason to delete this though is WP:SYNTH. A combination of sources using an analogy is being presented as a topic covering the analogy. None of the sources are actual secondary sources covering this analogy. They are using the analogy, which makes them all primary sources combined into a topic by a Misplaced Pages editor seeking to prove a WP:POINT. nableezy - 04:12, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Your understanding of what a "primary source" is is curious, to say the least. Scholarly articles with citations are secondary sources, not primary sources. News articles based on interviews with other people are also secondary sources. Opinion articles are primary sources, but the policy clearly states that they are admissible as a source regarding opinions of the author. Marokwitz (talk) 06:05, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

It depends on how you use the source. They are secondary sources for what they actually are covering, but you arent using them like that. You invented a topic, this "analogy", and then used sources that are using the analogy, not covering it. The sources here are the subject of the article, not secondary sources covering the subject. And using the word "scholarly" for a source list that has the WND website cited 7 times and a book published by WND books also cited goes beyond absurd into just funny. nableezy - 13:30, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

• Keep At least for the moment. On first glance it looks like your typical Sharks.-vs.-Jets-I/P coatrack. It is but there are a slim few scholarly papers on the topic (which the article might want to reference). It needs some serious editing as there's a hell of a lot of SYNTH but there is some meat here. Sol (talk) 05:07, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep. Why is it not surprising that same person who insisted to keep "Israel and the apartheid analogy" is also insisting on deleting "Hamas and the Taliban analogy"? The article is much better sourced than Israel and the apartheid analogy, and the overall topic is more notable. The specified reason is not a policy based reason for deletion. As the 37 rock solid references attest, the topic is widely covered by both scholarly and journalistic sources from nonpartisan parties as well as both sides of the I-P conflict. All the provided sources specifically make an analogy or deny the analogy between the Hamas and the Taliban. Marokwitz (talk) 05:45, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Is there a single source discussing the "analogy"? Just one source actually discussing it and not using it. nableezy - 12:58, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

• Snow Keep. Per Malik and Sol, and the nearly unanimous keep !votes. And the sources discussing and focusing on the analogy.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:19, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Name one of those sources you say exists. nableezy - 12:59, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

There are many given in the article, for example "Hamas, Taliban and the Jewish Underground: An Economist’s View of Radical Religious Militias", "The Talibanization of Gaza: A Liability for the Muslim Brotherhood", "The Hamas Enterprise and the Talibanization of Gaza", "Palestine: Taliban-like attempts to censor music", "The Fundamentalist City?: Religiosity and the Remaking of Urban Space", "HAMAS AND GLOBAL JIHAD: THE ISLAMIZATION OF THE PALESTINIAN CAUSE", " Fears of a Taliban-Style Emirate in Gaza", "Gaza turns into a Taliban state", In addition this article contains explicit uses of the analogy by Israeli, Palestinian, and other officials such as Dan Meridor, Benjamin Netanyahu, Mark Regev, Samir Mashharawi, Richard Kemp. More than enough to establish notability, far more so than 99% of the articles on Misplaced Pages. Marokwitz (talk) 13:07, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Ive read 3 of those, working on the rest. The problem is they dont discuss an analogy, they use it. To combine sources using the analogy into an article on an analogy is synthesis of primary sources. In other words, original research. nableezy - 13:25, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

The sources provided discuss the analogy, list supporters of the analogy, rejections of the analogy, as well as voice opinions regarding the validity of the analogy. Marokwitz (talk) 14:50, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Could you quote a single source that actually discusses the analogy as opposed to just using it? nableezy - 21:45, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

The notability guideline is "a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". The topic is "Hamas and the Taliban analogy". Now let's see if we have significant coverage of the analogy by reliable sources independent Hamas or the Taliban. Let's take for example professor Nezar Alsayyad, who writes in her book "The Fundamentalist City?: Religiosity and the Remaking of Urban Space" that a growing number of analysts have denounced openly the "systematic, massive and explicit efforts" at Talibanization led by Hamas in the Gaza Strip. This is a direct reference to the fact that other scholars are making the analogy of the actions of Hamas and Taliban. Or take Berman, a world renown economist from UC San Diego National Bureau of Economic Research, who noted that both groups gained support by providing providing social welfare, and developed into effective and violent militias; both received subsidies from abroad; both underwent increases in stringency of practice as they gained power; both require members to undergo a costly initiation rite of personal sacrifice; and both changed their ideologies drastically and at great cost to members. Both of the above books are most certainly not primary sources, they are secondary scholarly sources based on dozens and hundreds of citations. Should I continue? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marokwitz (talk • contribs) 06:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you should, up until the point where you actually quote from a source covering the analogy and not just using it. The sources you mention re secondary sources for the article on Hamas, but here you are using them as primary sources. They are covering Hamas, not an analogy. nableezy - 13:02, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

• Weak keep - of course it is offensive that someone would compare any people to known terrorists, but people do so. Misplaced Pages is a mirror of society. Whether this is notable is not so clear to me. Bearian (talk) 17:56, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

not that it makes a difference really, but which one of the two do you consider "known terrorists" that the other may be "offended" by the analogy?--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 18:01, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

• Comment: The article contains much information showing that the nomination rationale, "no such analogy has ever been claimed", is false. The comparison with Israel and the apartheid analogy is valid, but this article comes out better in the comparison because it describes a significant POV, as opposed to the other one, which describes a fringe POV. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 18:59, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Keep Sources state over and over that such an analogy exists, and then proceed to confirm or deny it. Motives for deletion are more than suspect.--Geewhiz (talk) 05:00, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

• Comment: it is an impressive looking article, all nicely formatted with inline citations to sources that look respectable. But that is just a facade that if wiped away reveals serious problems with this article regarding original research. For example, the first source cited, The Talibanization of Gaza: A Liability for the Muslim Brotherhood, cited six times throughout the article, never once uses the word "analogy". The article (which oh by the way gets some very basic facts very very wrong) does not one time discuss such an analogy, it says that Hamas is guilty of what it calls "Talibanization". That is, the article uses this analogy, and from this, and sources used in exactly this way, we create an article about an analogy. The sources dont discuss this analogy, they use it. The article then synthesis those separate sources using such an analogy into an article that is supposedly covering an analogy. There arent any secondary sources actually dealing with the supposed topic of the article. Yall can have your lil article, but dont bring that questioning of motives here. If you want to question motives, the article's creation is a good place to start. nableezy - 05:16, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Nab -- you're just repeating yourself. Clearly, everyone else who has commented with a !vote here -- everyone -- sees it differently. I doubt your repeating yourself will sway the overwhelming consensus here to shift to your side.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:23, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Not "everyone". I certainly agree with Nableezy's comments, as should be obvious from what I wrote when I submitted this AfD: that this was a pointy article and that no such analogy had ever been claimed. RolandR (talk) 08:44, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Everyone who !voted. The response to your nom, absent his !vote, has been a 100 per cent, snow rejection.--Epeefleche (talk) 11:18, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

In my language, "everyone" means "every single person, without exception". Yoy clearly speak a different variant of English. RolandR (talk) 11:46, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I wonder what variant of English would read "everyone else who has commented with a !vote here" to include someone who did not in fact comment with a !vote. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 13:26, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

That wasnt a repetition, that was an expansion. I covered a specific source used extensively in that article. I dont think what we have is a representative sampling of the community and I can only hope that those uninvolved in editing the topic who have yet to look at the AfD read the comments and then read the sources and make a determination as to whether or not this impressive looking article is actually entirely OR based on synthesis of what are effectively primary sources. I may do so the same for other references used. I might be less tempted to do so if I dont have to read half-assed questioning of motives. nableezy - 05:27, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Do not tempt Nableezy. Who knows what could happen! This place is so funny sometimes. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 13:26, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

• Keep per Epeefleche. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 13:26, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
• Comment/Weak Delete: WP:POINT is strengthened by the absurd title used here (Israel and the apartheid analogy was a disagreeable compromise constantly under requests for renanaming). The real subject is Comparisons of Hamas and the Taliban. And not all common comparisons are notable. Per the unsigned comment quoting the notability guidelines ("a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject"), the subject here is analogies/comparisons between Hamas and the Taliban. Anyone who makes such analogies (not just the Taliban and Hamas) is part of the subject; the question for notability is whether third parties find this analogy notable. Someone refuting point and notability concerns must produce one or more reliable source doing just that. Until that happens, I'm in favor of deletion.--Carwil (talk) 13:12, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

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