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Former article talkpages (archived) Republic of Kosovo

This page has archives. Sections older than 20 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

Link to Abdul Hamid

The link to Abdul Hamid in the text "The Albanians threatened to march all the way to Salonika and reimpose Abdul Hamid." appears to link to the incorrect Abdul Hamid. I think Abdul Hamid II is the correct one, but I am not sure. 75.85.180.14 (talk) 18:58, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is antiserbian, this article strongly supports only albanian side and point of view, and this will be published in "Politika", most selled newspaper in Serbia! --109.121.31.67 (talk) 23:15, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the update. I hope it doesn't mention my user name in any bad capacity! This article is not that anti-Serbian. Ask the Albanians who would prefer to change the intro to "country" and see if it is anti-Serb. Evlekis (Евлекис) 23:17, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija -like redirects

I see that many variants of "Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija" redirect here (including such written in cyrillic). I propose that we redirect them to Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (disambiguation) - or if possible directly to an article such as: Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (1946-1974), Socialist Autonomous Province of Kosovo, Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (1990–1999). Alinor (talk) 20:22, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

If it can be determined that they are not referring to the current Serb conception of KiM, then they should be redirected appropriately. If they are making reference to current events, they should stay as is. Unless, of course, we were to split this article. (Note: While I support splitting the article, I don't want to start another argument about it. I was just covering all possibilities.) --Khajidha (talk) 12:25, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't noticed that this article is not only about RoK. It has only the RoK infobox and no APKiM or UNMIK infoboxes - so I assumed that it is only about RoK - that's why I found it strange for APKiM redirects to go here.

So, the problem is not only in the redirects, it is in the whole structure/topic of the article!

I think the current setup is entirely inappropriate - if the article "Kosovo" is to be a combo-article covering both Kosovar POV and Serbian POV - then it should include infoboxes for both POVs (as the two POVs imply entirely different statuses). I understand that it will be difficult to decide what is put first, but having one of them missing is even worse - and misleading. Also, I don't know if Serbian POV should be represented by APKiM infobox or UNMIK infobox (these are already existing in the respective articles) - after all UNMIK is "accepted" by Serbia.

Such double POV arrangement seems inappropriate to me. Current situation: we have articles for former/current APKiM and UNMIK, but we don't have article for Republic of Kosovo. We also don't have articles devoted to Kosovo as a region/territory (in the sense of physical/natural properties, not in the political or administrative sense), we don't have article explaining Kosovar position on Kosovo, we don't have article Serbian position on Kosovo. The current Kosovo article is an awful mix of all these topics (both such that have their own articles and such that don't have separate articles). I propose the following arrangement (but reading your comment above it seems to open a can of worms):

1. Kosovo to be devoted to as "general description" of the region/territory with sections
   • about the physical/natural properties of the region/territory - parts of the current "Geography" section
   • about the historical developments up to somewhere in the 20th century (up to 1912 or 1990) - most of the current "History" section
   • with brief section about demographics, languages, culture
   • with a separate section "Status of Kosovo" or similar - somewhere at the bottom where the recent (post 1990) political developments are briefly described - with links to the main articles of RoKosova, APKiM, UNMIK, RoK. Maybe mix it with the current "Name" section in "Status and names of Kosovo"
   • remarks about current political status and Kosovar/Serbian POVs to be kept mostly out of the lead section (otherwise it will become too big) and put into the "Status" section in the bottom
2. Republic of Kosovo to get most of the sections (and the RoK infobox) of the current article (parts/summaries of them can be put in the general Kosovo article, relevant/ammended parts of them can be put in APKiM and/or UNMIK article) - this can be considered to show the Kosovar POV - or a separate Kosovar position on Kosovo or Albanian position on Kosovo article can be made
3. Serbian Status Proposal for Kosovo (already existing) - this can be considered to show the Serbian POV - or a separate Serbian position on Kosovo article can be made
4. pre-lead & disambiguate navigation helps ("XXX redirects here, for other uses see YYY", "This article is about XXX, for other uses see YYY") changes to relevant articles:
   • Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (1946-1974) to have such link to Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (disambiguation) and "Kosovo and Metohija (region) redirects here, for general description of the territory see Kosovo"
   • Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (1990–1999) to have such link to Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (disambiguation); RoK to be linked from inside the text, where Kosovo dispute is mentioned
   • Socialist Autonomous Province of Kosovo to have such link to Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (disambiguation) and "Kosovo (region) redirects here, for general description of the territory see Kosovo"
   • Kosovo to have such link to Kosovo (disambiguation)
   • Republic of Kosovo to have such link to Republic of Kosova, Kosovo (disambiguation); APKiM to be linked from inside the text, where Serbia dispute is mentioned
   • Republic of Kosova to have such link to Republic of Kosovo, Kosovo (disambiguation); APKiM to be linked from inside the text, where Serbia dispute is mentioned
   • Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (disambiguation) currently has a plain link to Kosovo - just keep it or add "general" and "political" sections with the first containing "general reference to the territory of Kosovo" and the second containing the APKiM pre-1974, SAP, APKiM post 1990 links
5. The redirects to be changed:
   • to Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (1946-1974): Autonomous Region of Kosovo and Metohija, Kosovo and Metohija (region) (sometimes called region instead of province)
   • to Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (1990–1999): Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (1999-) (or the article text to reside in "Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (1990–)" with "1990-1999" and "1999-" redirecting to the "1990-" article), Serbian National Council for Kosovo and Metohija (or to North Kosovo or Assembly of the Community of Municipalities of the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija)
   • to Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (disambiguation): AP Kosovo, AP Kosovo and Metohija, AP Kosovo i Metohija, APKM, APKiM, Autonomna Pokrajina Kosovo i Metohija, Autonomous Province of Kosovo, Kosmet, Kosovo & Metohia, Kosovo & Metohija, Kosovo (Serbia), Kosovo (province), Kosovo and Metochia, Kosovo and Metohia, Kosovo and Metohija, Kosovo and Metohija (geopolitical region), Kosovo i Metohija, Kosovo-Metohia, Kosovo-Metohija, Province of Kosovo, Аутономна Покрајина Косово и Метохија, Косово и Метохија
   • to Socialist Autonomous Province of Kosovo: Kosovo (region), Kosovo region (sometimes called region instead of province)
   • to Republic of Kosovo: Independent Kosovo, Independent Republic of Kosovo, Kosova State, Kosovo State, Republic of Kosovo, Republic of Kosovo (2008), Republika e Kosoves, Republika e Kosovës, State of Kosova, The Republic of Kosovo
   • to Kosovo: Cosovo, KOSOVO, Kosavo, Kosova, Kosovo Valley, Cossovo, Kosove, Kosovo and Metohija (territory), Kossovo, Kosvo, Косово, The Kosovo (delete, not used?), The Kossovo (delete, not used?), Kosovci, Kosovë, Culture of KV, Culture of Kosovo, Languages of Kosovo
   • to UNMIK: Crime in Kosovo, Communications in Kosovo
   • to Michael R. Meyer: KosovaLive Alinor (talk) 10:56, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

You and I seem to be in complete agreement, but many users here seem to disagree. I don't know why it is so hard to understand that the physical place is separate from the social structure erected upon it and that different social structures can exist in the same physical space. USUALLY this does not occur and the physical space and social structure can be covered in one article. When exceptional circumstances occur, however, this can and should be recognized with an exceptional article structure. --Khajidha (talk) 11:13, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

But what are the objections? Maybe we should put some "split proposal" template in the article linking to this discussion?

The group of articles about Palestine, State of Palestine, Palestinian National Authority, Governance of the Gaza Strip, Palestine Liberation Organization, Palestinian territories, Israeli-occupied territories, etc. is a good example for another similar case like the triad here of Serbia/UNMIK/Republic of Kosovo. Alinor (talk) 16:17, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

By similar I mean - it is an example of having different articles for the "general description" of the region/territory, for each of the "opposed to each other" governing authorities. Please, don't start arguments like "Kosovo is not like Palestine, because ..." - I don't claim it is. Alinor (talk) 16:21, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I Agree completely with this great wonderful proposal! I tried to propose this multiple time alredy, but each time i was sabotaged by few problematic users. Whatever you decide, i would love to participate, PLEASE just inform me on my talk page. Also, i propose split templates, that would be the best. Alinor, i propose to create new section, with your main proposal. Or we can use this one above? Anyway, i am here, and i am willing to help to fix this unbelievable POV horror that we have now... --WhiteWriter 16:58, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)WhiteWriter please don't try again without consensus because last time a large number of editors tuned your proposal down and some of them ended up complaining at AE about your actions.--— ZjarriRrethues —  17:02, 16 October 2010 (UTC).

I think to add a variant of Template:Split linking to this discussion (if the page protection allows me to), but could someone please point me to the previous discussions on such proposals? Alinor (talk) 05:53, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

For the most recent of the many split discussions, you may want to read archives Talk:Kosovo/Archive 25 and Talk:Kosovo/Archive 26.

Consensus can change, of course, but it gets a little tiring when some people who disagree with the consensus just want to try over and over again. To complain that one is sabotaged by problematic users is profoundly unhelpful; for people who genuinely believe (or pretend) that they have have The Truth and everybody else either helps or heeds them, wikipedia will be a very frustrating place, because wikipedia runs on consensus.

There wasn't even consensus to place a split template on the page, last time around.

This tends to turn into a very long debate so I would suggest putting it under its own heading if you wish to discuss further. bobrayner (talk) 09:37, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

I looked at some of the previous discussions (haven't read everything) and if I understand correctly the previous proposal were different - they proposed almost all material to go into the "general" Kosovo article, the RoK was referred to by the proposal "de facto ... disputed" (I think this doesn't help to have impartial debate) and wasn't clear what content will go there, the UNMIK was to go into APKiM article, etc. Then the comments revolved around "Serbia has no control over Kosovo, including North Kosovo", etc.

The current proposal is different than that. First it doesn't deal with the questions of how controls what, what the status is according to different POVs, etc. - the proposal is exactly about that - leave POVs to the appropriate articles and use Kosovo only for physical features/pre-1990 history - with only small section devoted to "Name and status" - mostly linking to the POV-articles.

I don't understand how anybody could be happy with the current status quo - the Republic of Kosovo does not have its own article - the current one is "pested" with APKiM-POV remarks. Even Somaliland article is more Somaliland-focused than this (and Somaliland has ZERO recognitions - for those that like to count recognitions and non-recognitions). On the other side, the APKiM-POV is pushed to the sidelines, there is no APKiM infobox (the reason I misunderstood the topic and started this discussion)! How could anybody claim that the status quo represents both POVs, when it actually represents neither?

What is the problem of putting APKiM and RoK POVs in their own articles (APKiM already has an article), UNMIK POV (that is different from the other two) also has an article. I think that the editors who support one of the POVs should concentrate on explaining it with great details on its own dedicated article - with just small remarks "the other POVs are the following: link1, link2, link3" - not like here to make "essay" delaboration in a mixed article. Espicially for UNMIK and APKiM POVs - they have their own articles, but their POVs are not explained well even there - for example - current functions/mandate of UNMIK, if/how it gave up tasks to EULEX (which tasks), to RoK (which tasks); Serbia position on APKiM - "since 1999 it is under UN administration", OK, but then "elections organized by Serbia produced the APKiM assembly->Serb APKiM Council, President" - so, is Belgrad officially working with these APKiM structures or it works with UNMIK (and what about EULEX?) - and only unofficially supports the APKiM structures? - the RoK POV also leaves many things unexplained - again about UNMIK-RoK relations - PISG were part of UNMIK, now it seems that they are part of RoK - how was the transition made? documents, sources. Is the old UNMIK currency regulation (4/1999) in force ("allowing official payments to be done in dinars, but with additional charge for exchange costs")? etc. And general questions - does Serbia put customs duties on goods coming from Kosovo? And from North Kosovo? Are there serbian border guards and customs officiers at the Serbia-Kosovo crossing, or is it considered by Serbia "internal administrative boundary, not border"? What about foreign debt of Serbia+Kosovo - how/whether it is divided? What about shares/immovable properties in Kosovo owned by Serbian entities/citizens? And vice-versa? What about RoK representation in organizations where the membership is of UNMIK? etc. the list of unanswered questions could continue.

Instead on focusing on delivering content with sources, etc. - we argue if we need source for "state with limited recognition" against "disputed territory with limited recognition" or if we should count recognitions or non-recognitions. I think, that by dividing the article into RoK, APKiM, UNMIK and historical/physical "general Kosovo" - all POVs would be represented much better, each in their own article.

By putting all in the same place is like requiring from Misplaced Pages editors to agree on common position - a thing that politicians could not do for 20 years. This is just a magnet for reverts, vandalism, etc. - so, the page is protected.

practical question - so, if putting a split-template is not acceptable, what can be done? Alinor (talk) 10:40, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Creating separate articles to avoid the irksome chore of getting "Misplaced Pages editors to agree on common position" would be a POV fork. I'd rather get a NPOV here than create two separate POV ghettoes (which would, themselves, still attract lots of reverts and vandalism). bobrayner (talk) 11:23, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Alinor, you are very much welcome to propose some solution and add split-templates. None can ban you to propose split. Thats one of the main wiki rules, as you know. You must know that you have here some editors that find this subject very personal and emotional, so they can try to stop you, or there can be some minor problems, as i unfortunately find out. As i told you, just add new section with your proposal alongside split templates. With your fine explanation, every neutral admin will be willing to read what you have. Also, only arguments can win here. This horror needs to be fixed. --WhiteWriter 12:19, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Bobrayner, i don't agree that this is a POV fork proposal. RoK and APKiM and UNMIK are three different things, that's why putting them in a single article results in the problems described all over these 27 talk pages. There is one single thing that is common to all three and it is that the three are "administrations/governments" of the same territory - Kosovo. How much any one of these three is "legitimate", how much any one of these has "real control", etc. is irrelevant. I think it is better that we have one article, containing only the common things (Kosovo history pre-1990, geography, etc.) - and the other articles to deal with their own topic (and mention the others only when required in order to explain something about their topic).

WhiteWriter, thanks for the support! But it seems that the issue is very controversial (and entrenched) and right now I don't have time to be dragged into such discussion - I made my proposal above - if the editors here like it - they could easily implement it. I was just passing by and saw the strange redirects (some of them could be corrected even without the article split). Alinor (talk) 13:00, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

To me it seems that splitting the article would allow clearer presentation of each side. Just as a debate has each participant speak individually instead of having everyone speaking at once and trying to drown out the other side's points. Yes, there should be a prominent note reminding people that these other POVs exist and linking to the presentation of each, but each government/administration should be presented in its own article. --Khajidha (talk) 13:53, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

I put a "split proposed" template in the article lead on October 30, 2010. Alinor (talk) 09:59, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

 Disagree. This was already a long debate. I agree that the current article leaves much questions unanswered. And, really, the whole article requires to be re-edited. It has to be shortened and it should redirect to other pages that are already created, and have much more information (e.g. APKM). However, Kosovo referring to the geographic territory would only be POV, meaning, Kosovo is not a real state. And this in itself is disputable. —Anna Comnena (talk) 13:08, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

So, it was a long debate, so it shouldn't be debated anymore? Kosovo is not a real state is fact. Kosovo cannot be compared with Poland, America, or any other fully recognized state. Kosovo status is disputed, and excluding that fact is POV.

Agree. absolutely, completely, with no doubts! This split may be only real solution to save wikipedia from being propaganda tool. --WhiteWriter 14:14, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Agree - This is the solution I have always favored. Having both ROK and APKIM in the same article means that neither can be given the full focus each deserves. --Khajidha (talk) 14:16, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Agree - per Khajidha. Moreover, I always found it odd that the infobox of this article says "Republic of Kosovo" at the very top. Athenean (talk) 15:26, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. The previous situation of multiple infoboxes was horrendous and opens us up to debates about to which to give priority. Having just one means that at least some of the information isn't correct from one or the other viewpoint. --Khajidha (talk) 16:36, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

This is a fact. Without other side, this page is not neutral. And i think that this is almost unquestionable, like the common sense. One side, without other side, not equal to full. :) A bit of a poetry! :) :) --WhiteWriter 19:43, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Agree - The only possible solution for ending the Misplaced Pages dispute! --UrbanVillager (talk) 21:21, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Obviously WhiteWriter is trying to gain consensus again only about one month after the vast majority of users without a conflict of interest rejected it. I suppose I'll have to inform them because this isn't a voting competition.--— ZjarriRrethues —  22:15, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Your comment is completely untrue. Thank god we have archive to check. --WhiteWriter 19:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Agree per WhiteWriter, Khajidha, Athenean and UrbanVillager.--Andrija (talk) 08:45, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Agree - strongly agree! right way to end this endless dispute. --Alexmilt (talk) 14:33, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Ca you all just read WP:ARBMAC2 first! —Anna Comnena (talk) 14:37, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

This split proposal is based on ARBMAC. Misplaced Pages is NOT propaganda tool! --WhiteWriter 19:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Please let's not start again with trying to move Republic of Kosovo to a different name. This split was already rejected. And stop voting, wikipedia is not a democracy. --Enric Naval (talk) 00:32, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't think anybody is voting - they are just expressing agreement/disagreement with the proposal, right?

As I explained above - former split proposals were different - and if I am not mistaken - they were with POVish intentions and POVish proposed results.

Anna Comnena, this proposal has nothing to do with "Kosovo is/isn't a real state". It is only about arranging content in appropriate places.

Enric Naval, this proposal is not "to move Republic of Kosovo to a different name" - it is a proposal to leave RoK as it is (point2 above: "Republic of Kosovo to get most of the sections (and the RoK infobox) of the current article") and separate pre-1990 history content in another place - so that the RoK article is not mixed with APKiM/UNMIK content.

The current setup is simply wrong - Kosovo POV supporters added all RoK state-article content (including infobox), but Serbia POV supporters insisted that APKiM (and UNMIK?) content should be there too - and added it as well (albeit without infoboxes). This is a horrible mess.

The main question is - what is the topic of the "Kosovo" article?

1. Kosovo (disambiguation)
2. Kosovo (region) (history/geography) - currently redirecting to Kosovo
3. Republic of Kosovo (Kosovar POV) - currently redirecting to Kosovo
4. UNMIK (UNSC POV)
5. APKiM (Serbia POV) - currently redirecting to Kosovo, but actually represented here and see also the second sub-point of proposal point5
6. some mix of the above?

See for example Macedonia - it is a Macedonia (disambiguation) with links to Macedonia (region), Republic of Macedonia and Macedonia (Greece). I am sure that both RoM and Greece POV supporters would like their article to reside under 'just "Macedonia"', also Greece POV supporters would prefer the RoM article to reside under "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", etc. But at least each topic has its own article and a sensible balance is reached between the POVs - by using the common name for a disambiguation page, etc.

So, I propose a little change to the proposal - the general description/history/geography sections (point1 of the proposal) should reside in Kosovo (region) (and change point4 sub-point3 and point5 sub-point4 accordingly).

Another question is where should Kosovo redirect - to: Kosovo (region), Kosovo (disambiguation), Republic of Kosovo, UNMIK or Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (1999-) (linking to here, see sub-point2 of point5)? I think we should choose region or disambiguation, as the other options would be objected by the different POV camps. The other option is like Cyprus - there is the article for Republic of Cyprus, and it has in the heading a navigation link to Cyprus (disambiguation) - but in this case we will have to decide what POV gets the Kosovo - RoK, UNMIK or APKiM.

In fact, I think that the opposition to the current proposal is grounded in the insistence of RoK POV supporters that their article is under Kosovo and that no other POV should "usurp" this name. But the current result is that there is no RoK article at all - there is only a RoK/APKiM mixed article. Alinor (talk) 10:18, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Republic

The Republic of Kosovo has: its own Controlled Territory, its Population and Sovereignty, which are the three musts for being a state. Majuru (talk) 18:08, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

This is highly questionable subject, and intro must have community consensus to be edited in that way. You may propose here your version, and we will talk about it. Thanks! --WhiteWriter 20:59, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

It's a partially recognized Republic, that means it's recognized by 70 or 80 other countries, but it's disputed by only one, Serbia. It will take time to reach a consensus on that, but eventually consensus will come. Look at Israel, for example. Majuru (talk) 21:50, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Your theory is incorrect. It is recognised by 70-80 as you say, and not recognised by the rest. The "dispute" factor works two ways, those that do not recognise Kosovo (including those that will at a later date) at present recognise Serbia's territorial integrity over the land, as such, they "dispute" the republic; for those 70-80 that recognise, they "dispute" Serbia's claim on the land, so this way or that way, it is still disputed. In addition, Serbia is not alone in its outright rejection of the republic, there are a handful of sympathising nations. Evlekis (Евлекис) 23:57, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

It's recognized by many countries, which is enough to call it "partially-recognized" (see List of unrecognized or partially recognized countries, a redirect to "List of states with limited recognition")

P.D.: Agh, Diplomatic recognition doesn't have a section for "partial recognition".

P.D.D.: Note that Kosovo is also listed at List of disputed territories, a redirect of "List of territorial disputes". After all, it's a territory and it's at dispute. However, I think that it has gained enough recognition to label it as "partially recognized". --Enric Naval (talk) 09:39, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I think this is related to the mixed topic issue - see above discussion. Alinor (talk) 11:08, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

@Evelkis, so what? There are a lot of republics that are disputed, see China for example. Can you give me the WP guidelines for defining states v. "disputed" states? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.114.198.186 (talk) 17:58, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

So what? China is anything but disputed, its borders are clearly marked and the country has ties with every other government in the world. The trouble there is that the land is split in terms of which Chinese authority governs which particular area, and world states in turn recognise one of the two rival authorities. Serbia/Kosovo is not an example of two power bases claiming sovereignty of one entire region making it impossible for one to recognise the other, it is a case of one region declaring independence and the host (or ex-host) rejecting the move. So the analogy involving China does not stretch. Evlekis (Евлекис) 20:01, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Your attempt to deflect the question is useless. I would still like to see WP guidelines that defines "states" v. "disputed" territories.

I'm waiting!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.114.198.186 (talk) 20:06, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

I am not deflecting anything, just stating the differences between the China situation and Kosovo. If we remove the "disputed" part and present Kosovo no differently from Sweden or Bhutan, we are ignoring the fact that its ex-host continues to take issue as well as over half the world's states presently recognising the status quo ante. Evlekis (Евлекис) 12:59, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Questionable removal of sentence from the lede

I don't understand, and don't agree with, the removal of this sentence from the lede . There is nothing "too disputed" about it, and it is perfectly well-sourced. If the lede is to include a historical summary, then for sure that Serbs consider Kosovo the cradle of their culture should be mentioned. That goes to the very core of the conflict, and our readers should know this upfront. Any sources in the literature on the Kosovo conflict mention that Serbs consider Kosovo the cradle of their culture. Whatever the merits of this belief, it is central to the subject of this article, and any brief summary of the topic should include it. It seems to me that it was removed on WP:IDONTLIKEIT grounds and nothing more. Its placement was moreover strange and clumsy, and disrupted the flow of the article. Athenean (talk) 20:09, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

I am one of a number of editors that has shaped this entry since its introduction by Cinema C. We need to be careful with it because its status as a crux is purely a sentimental phenomenon cherished by the Serbian nation. The land is of equal importance for one reason or another to Albanians. I don't like many parts of it, such as the silly statement that the Serb stgate never originated from Kosovo. Who said that it did? I stated in previous comments, a cradle is where an infant sleeps, it is not the womb. And why do we need Noel Malcolm as a source for the irrelevant remark? All right, he might be a historian and a usable source, but we no more require his services for this than Michael Palin to tell us that Eritrea split from Ethiopia in 1993; it happens to be an international event and people know this to have happened. For historical territories we need maps, not vexatious commentary from apologists in conflict. Evlekis (Евлекис) 12:55, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

We don't know when Serbs started to consider Kosovo the cradle of their culture. Was it in the XIX century, with the rise of nationalisms? Or was it sooner, and the nationalisms simply took the pre-existing idea and radicalized it? --Enric Naval (talk) 14:41, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Both sources strongly suggest that Kosovo was made the cradle of Serbs only during the 20th century rise of nationalism in Yugoslavia.--— ZjarriRrethues —  05:48, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Regarding historical and religious importance of numerous monuments on Kosovo, and regarding other sources, it seems that it wasn't only in the 20th century. That would be impossible. Peć Patriarchate, seat of Serbian Orthodox Church, numerous monastery's built by Serbian kings and Emperors, site of the Battle of Kosovo.... There are a lot of sources that claim this. Also, i dont see that any source "strongly suggest"... Can you point it out? It seems that it wasn't like like you said. --WhiteWriter 08:20, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

That says nothing about Serbs considering it a cradle. Can you bring any sources that say Serbs considered Kosovo their cradle before the rise of nationalism?--— ZjarriRrethues —  08:45, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Sure, just wait to collect few, please! --WhiteWriter 08:48, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Since you reverted me, you should have them already available.--— ZjarriRrethues —  08:49, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

It would seem that Serbs want to recover "their" land of Kosovo since the Battle of Kosovo Polje) in 1389.Brown Alumni Magazine (not a very reliable source, but somewhere to start)

Also the Western America diocese of the Serbian Orthodox Church (there are lots of references to shared culture between Kosovar Albanians and Serbs):

"The Patriarch became Milletbasha or leader of all Serbian and Bulgarian Orthodox, ruling from Pec in Kosovo . If we look for the seedbed of the idea of a "Greater Serbia," it may come from the Pec patriarchate under Ottoman rule rather than from the medieval kingdoms. This reorganization gave the Serbs the possibility of preserving their religion, language and cohesive identity."

The name "Cradle of Serbian culture" was probably the catchy name that nationalism used, but the sentiment existed already. --Enric Naval (talk) 09:13, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Enric, that is precisely what I was going to say when logging back in to catch up on updates. "Cradle" and "crux" are purely rhetorical, and rightly as Zjarri states, have only in recent times been incorporated into the fabric of Serbian consciousness. But as you also rightly say, the sentiment has stood for longer, and is based on actual occurrences that took place on the territory of modern-day Kosovo and not some fiction. Well argued. Evlekis (Евлекис) 10:10, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject States With Limited Recognition Proposal

There is a proposal for a Wikiproject at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Council/Proposals/States With Limited Recognition. This proposed project would have within it's scope the 10 "Other States" of International Politics and their subpages(significant locations, geography, transportation, culture, history and so on). The project would help to maintain and expand these articles. If you are interested please indicate your support for the proposed project on the above linked page. This page would be within the Project's scope. Outback the koala (talk) 06:04, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

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