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Revision as of 22:17, 13 February 2006 edit63.28.4.130 (talk) →Ok, she didn't shoot/kill anyone, we get it.: minor changes← Previous edit Revision as of 02:37, 14 February 2006 edit undoOldwindybear (talk | contribs)5,177 editsNo edit summaryNext edit →
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::''all Blanche claimed, in contradiction to virtually all other evidence, was that Bonnie accidently discharged a weapon that grazed someone, while at home,and not as a criminal act during a Barrow gang crime.'' ::''all Blanche claimed, in contradiction to virtually all other evidence, was that Bonnie accidently discharged a weapon that grazed someone, while at home,and not as a criminal act during a Barrow gang crime.''


:wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong (literally 5 false claims in that single sentence), and the choice of the benign word "discharged" above is just more evidence of a crusade. the section of barrow's book cited above (page 66 and context) makes it quite clear that blanche barrow claimed bonnie parker shot a rifle, '''intentionally''', from a '''car window''', during a '''getaway from an attempted bank robbery''', and '''striking''', according to the editor's notes re a newspaper article, one woman in the shoulder and "wounding" another in the arm. the grazing mentioned in the book footnotes was ''in addition'' to the shoulder and arm wounds of the two victims, respectively. that was clear from quotes from the book on this very page, but through selective transmission it has now been converted, quite erroneously, into a grazing. when does this fantastic approach end? :wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong. the choice of the benign word "discharged" above is just more evidence of a crusade. the section of barrow's book cited above (page 66 and context) makes it quite clear that blanche barrow claimed bonnie parker shot a rifle, '''intentionally''', from a '''car window''', during a '''getaway from an attempted bank robbery''', and '''striking''', according to the editor's notes re a newspaper article, one woman in the shoulder and "wounding" another in the arm. the grazing mentioned in the book footnotes was ''in addition'' to the shoulder wound.


:contrary to distortion, significant evidence corroborates blanche barrow's account as perhaps being mild, and places the incident in lucerne, indiana, 12 may 1933. some witnesses reported seeing ''both'' women in the car (i.e., blanche and bonnie) using guns, from the car, in front of the Christian Church, firing "about forty shots toward a crowd of people who had poured out of their homes to see what the excitement was about." (''pharos-tribune'', 12 may 1933, via the footnotes in blanche's book.) the implied claim of opponents of these facts is that the moral difference between murder and peacefulness is somewhere around 5 ], while shooting into a crowd of innocents from a moving car. absurd. :that was clear from quotes from the book on this very page, but through selective transmission it has now been converted, quite erroneously, into a grazing. when does this fantastic approach end? contrary to distortion, significant evidence corroborates blanche barrow's account as perhaps being mild, and places the incident in lucerne, indiana, 12 may 1933. some witnesses reported seeing ''both'' women in the car (i.e., blanche and bonnie) using guns, from the car, in front of the Christian Church, firing "about forty shots toward a crowd of people who had poured out of their homes to see what the excitement was about." (''pharos-tribune'', 12 may 1933, via the footnotes in blanche's book.) the implied claim of opponents of these facts is that the moral difference between murder and peacefulness is somewhere around 5 ], while shooting into a crowd of innocents from a moving car. absurd.


:the article is now riddled with presumptuous, selectively cited, POV such as that refuted above. the new version is quite obviously on a mission to sanctify and protect bonnie parker, a woman who routinely aided murderers and thieves, living with abandon and without remorse off the proceeds of stolen wealth and lives. this is a woman who quite probably in march 1930 (with her cousin mary tagging along) burglarized a home, stole a gun, and smuggled it into jail for clyde's breakout. obviously, the key piece of info there is that clyde was in jail. ''she was the principal actor''. good luck painting her a non-participant/saint upon a full examination of evidence. where is this burglary and direct role in a jailbreak mentioned while minimizing her role all through the article? :the article is now riddled with presumptuous, selectively cited, POV such as that refuted above. the new version is quite obviously on a mission to sanctify and protect bonnie parker, a woman who routinely aided murderers and thieves, living with abandon and without remorse off the proceeds of stolen wealth and lives. this is a woman who quite probably in march 1930 (with her cousin mary tagging along) burglarized a home, stole a gun, and smuggled it into prison for clyde's breakout. obviously, the key piece of info there is that clyde was in prison. ''she was the principal actor''. good luck painting her a non-participant/saint upon a full examination of evidence. where is this burglary and direct role in a jailbreak mentioned while minimizing her role all through the article? what about her participation in the planning and execution of the 1934 eastham prison break? is this just play material -- something the average woman does? is supporting operations in which people are killed somehow a complete separation of moral culpability? it just goes on and on. she was an accomplice to murder, more than once. this is lost entirely in the new fantasy. nowhere in the article edits has there been anything, even against clyde barrow, approaching the vitriol piled on hamer and the rest of the posse. if bonnie parker was shooting a rifle indiscriminately into a crowd of presumably innocent, unarmed strangers, how is that any different from what hamer did, except perhaps worse? the case against bonnie parker goes on for miles, but it's all denied actively in the "historian" version. where in the article is the voice of the many innocent victims of the barrow gang to counter the pained fretting over somebody trying to cut souvenirs from the corpses of criminals? the solution is to zap 'em both from the editorializing side, and report facts dispassionately.

:what about her participation in the planning and execution of the 1934 eastham prison break? is this just play material -- something the average woman does? is supporting operations in which people are killed somehow a complete separation of moral culpability? it just goes on and on. she was an accomplice to murder, more than once. this is lost entirely in the new fantasy. nowhere in the article edits has there been anything, even against clyde barrow, approaching the vitriol piled on hamer and the rest of the posse. if bonnie parker was shooting a rifle indiscriminately into a crowd of presumably innocent, unarmed strangers, how is that much different from what hamer did, except perhaps worse? the case against bonnie parker goes on for miles, but it's all denied actively in the "historian" version. where in the article is the voice of the many innocent victims of the barrow gang to counter the pained fretting over somebody trying to cut souvenirs from the corpses of criminals? the solution is to zap 'em both from the editorializing side, and report facts dispassionately.


:there must be accurate neutrality in any attempt to explain that the murder of parker by the state was questionable. the article did have this neutrality, and did correct common misunderstanding clearly and objectively -- get in, get out. it was thrown away so that a biased author could hold forth from the pulpit, attempting to correct decades of misunderstanding by essentially painting bonnie parker as a helpless victim, and using misleading and inaccurate techniques (primarily selective inclusion/exclusion, but including outright false claims) to do it. the debunking above is only the start of demonstrating how far off the article is now. but why should anybody else bother correcting it when somebody on a mission has a submit button that works overtime? no reason. the article will now stay a disaster, unless somebody wants to spend 5 unpaid months handholding and arguing against zealotry in POV and sloppy edits. what competent adult has the patience for that? ] 21:40, 13 February 2006 (UTC) :there must be accurate neutrality in any attempt to explain that the murder of parker by the state was questionable. the article did have this neutrality, and did correct common misunderstanding clearly and objectively -- get in, get out. it was thrown away so that a biased author could hold forth from the pulpit, attempting to correct decades of misunderstanding by essentially painting bonnie parker as a helpless victim, and using misleading and inaccurate techniques (primarily selective inclusion/exclusion, but including outright false claims) to do it. the debunking above is only the start of demonstrating how far off the article is now. but why should anybody else bother correcting it when somebody on a mission has a submit button that works overtime? no reason. the article will now stay a disaster, unless somebody wants to spend 5 unpaid months handholding and arguing against zealotry in POV and sloppy edits. what competent adult has the patience for that? ] 21:40, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

] First of all, I sign my name, so you know who you are talking too, you are merely an im who drifts in and out -- it sort of diminishes your credibility. As to the Bonnie Parker article, there is only one source that claims she fired a gun at someone, and that was Blanche Barrow, who wrote it in prison, for profit, while extremely bitter. It is disputed by every other member of the gang who TESTIFIED UNDER OATH that Bonnie never shot anyone. Now you can like it, or dislike it, but historically, their testimony under Oath carries more credibility than Blanche's recollections in prison, while not under Oath, and recollections which dispute every other member of the gang, 3 of whom put those claims -- that Bonnie shot no one -- under Oath!

Further, while you talk about misleading and inaccurate techniques (primarily selective inclusion/exclusion, you fail to mention that BONNIE WAS NOT WANTED FOR MURDER. Clyde was. Does the article paint her a saint? Lord, no! Nor does it try to sanitize her stupidity in following and assisting a psychopath while he committed crimes! But you miss the basic point, or selectively refuse to address it, which is that NO RELIABLE SOURCE -- and sorry, but Blanche Barrow's account, not under Oath, not sworn, does not stand up legally or historically to W.D. Jones, Ralph Fuits, Hnery Methvin's, all of whom swore under oath that Bonnie shot no one.

It is the duty of this encylopedia to give the BEST EVIDENCE AVAILABLE. And it has done so. I went back and reread Blanche's claim, and reworded to reflect that. But your constant harping does not change the facts. ] 02:37, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

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Refocusing

What are the substantive content disputes on this page? While I appreciate both of your positions, WP talk pages are for discussing article content, and not anything else. ARE there any content disputes? Please try to be concise, and don't comment on other editors. Comment on content. · Katefan0/mrp 16:58, 9 January 2006 (UTC)


Folks,Katefan0thinks I brought trupatriot, and Mr. Dorsen, ScrdBldTtd5982, in to say nice things about me. As both of you know, I never talked to either of you (by email or otherwise) in my life. With Kate in charge of this page, it is best for me to not be involved. I am tired of being libeled, adn that was libel. Hope someone reads this, before she removes it too, while she let Pig say wikipedia sucked for months. Sorry Kate, you were dead wrong on this/

Both of you were out of line, but it's done. Over. So let's try to put it behind us and let sleeping dogs lie. It does nobody any good to keep whinging on about it. If nobody can articulate a content dispute, I'll assume there aren't any. · Katefan0/mrp 17:30, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

No Katefan0Kate, I am sorry. You wrote that I had two people write in here, and write notes of support, when I have never talked to either in their lives. You are a very bright person, and have access to top attorneys, so ask them: that was plain libel. As to Pig, I was wrong only in that I let myself be part of misusing this page. I should NOT have wasted space in defending myself. I should have let management handle it. But for weeks you did not handle it, just as you let him put up insane remarks like "why wikipedia sucks." And you were plain wrong in what you said about me this morning, it was an open libel and a lie. I am sorry, but I don't like that. I have treated you with the utmost respect, and if you think for a second that trupatriot, and Mr. Dorsen, ScrdBldTtd5982 knew me, had talked to me, were brought in by me, that is just crazy. There are plenty of content disputes, which i articulated as least as well as you or anyone else could, but frankly, you are too biased against myself to adjudicate them, by what you did this morning. oldwindybear

I wasn't even watching this article when this stuff happened, so there's no way I could have tried to mediate when I didn't even realize it was happening. If you think accusing me of ignoring something I wasn't even aware of is "treating me with the utmost respect," I respectfully submit that you are mistaken.
Outline whatever your content disputes are if you like, but this is enough. SaltyPig has stopped and so should you. If you want to take further actions against him, you are welcome to open a requests for comment at WP:RFC or a request for arbitration at WP:RFAr. But the constant recursive whining on this talk page, given that SaltyPig stopped commenting almost a week ago, needs to stop. · Katefan0/mrp 17:42, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Then you should have the decency to admit that I did not bring in anyone to comment on my behalf, and I will gladly drop the matter. You have a double standard, you get to libel me, but when I object, you complain it is whining. As for Pig, since he has stopped, I see no reason to harrass him. You addressed every issue but the one that mattered: that you claimed you removed material from this page because I brought people in -- people I have never spoken to in my life -- to write nice things about me. That is wrong, period. If you did not know about the "wikipedia sucks" and other craziness, then i was wrong, and I humbly apologize. I am big enough to admit when I am wrong. Are you? That comment on my bringing people in was a really low blow. oldwindybear

I'm glad to hear that you didn't. Please, let's turn to content now. · Katefan0/mrp 17:49, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Folks, the issues I had researched and were asking for comments on before attempting the article rewrite have been arhieved; if anyone is interested in really attempting to rewrite this article -- with it's present many glaring holes and inaccuracies -- i would be glad to send you my notes and research. in the interim, the issues that had been posted are archieved. Take care! oldwindybear11:26pmEST1/12/06


NPOV?

Notwithstanding the issues between users, I have an NPOV concern with these two statements: "However, he appears to have been the only posse member bothered in any way by his actions." AND "Most of these souvenirs were later sold, rendering even more disgraceful the conduct of Hamer and the posse who killed Bonnie and Clyde."

These two statements seem to display a blatant opinion, and I think they need to be removed. In the spirit of good faith, I'll hold off until we can discuss them further. I also gave the controversy and aftermath it's own section, since the events leading up to the shootings don't seem to be in dispute. Joe McCullough | (talk) 18:57, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Joe McCullough The statement on " However, he appears to have been the only posse member bothered in any way by his actions" is based on his being the only posse member to have ever expressed regreat and remorse for his actions that day, and his quoted statements, see The Strange History of Bonnie & Clyde by John Treherne, and I can also refer you to three other books that make similar claims. I reworded it so it simply states the facts: he was the only posse member to publically express regret and remorse for his actions that day. I also reworded the sale of souvenirs, but the blunt fact is they were sold, 3 officers of the law were left to prevent people from doing things like cutting off pieces of Bonnie's hair and dress - which people did, and then sold! Or a man trying to cut off Clyde's finger and ear! Most people find that pretty appalling. I was extremely caerful to cite direct quotes from sources on the death scene, and I think you will find, as will anyone who checks, that it is correct and fair. Frank Hamer was in charge, and allowed it to happen till the coroner made himstop the people from doing these horrific things. I reworded so the facts are presented, not as an op-ed, but the facts, sourced, and people can make up their own mind as to whether it was disgraceful conduct. HOWEVER, you were right that it was not correctly worded, and I thank you and have tried to use dispassionate language thatlets people examine what happened, and reach their own conclusions. If you feel it needs more, just let me know. I have EVERY book on this couple in existence, and studied it from sea to shining sea. But you can always learn! Thanks for pointing out the language needed to be more dispassionate.old windy bear 14:16, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


just say... according to¨(source), he appears to have been the only posse member bothered by his actions. as for the second there appears to be a lot more sugestive information of perhaps a conspiracy? Why not just say, according to some historians the sale of of these souvenirs rendered the conduct of Hamer and the posse, who killed bonnie and clyde, "questionable". (put your source... and if you have a counter argument put it right after). Such as I dunno (I'm making this up)... "The police and general population's percepetion (at the time), however believe that this conduct was fair?"
The thing is there can be millions of POV's on wikipedia. (is that apple red... or is it "rouge vin" with some little freckles). Both should be mentioned. If you don't like the way it's worded thank refrase it.--CyclePat 21:21, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Rephrased is fine, my only point there is that those sentences read more like an op-ed piece than an encyclopedic article. Joe McCullough | (talk) 21:31, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
The thing with wikipedia, is that it should always be based on the accounts of someone else (reliable source of course!). If it's the way the original editor wrote it... I sugest you find out if this was a POV or if it was based on his sources. And even so, the sources should be indicated. NOw if you are wondering about the relevance of this information to be included that may be something else. Is it important that we know "he was bothered by his actions?" or that the conduct was "disgraceful."... I think you're right about the disgraceful. Definatelly the last be reformated. Simply stating what happened and allowing the reader to figure out for themself might be best!!! (ie.: Hitler doesn't even have the word bad or awful). So, personally I would keep the first one (adding the source)(if this subject is important), and edit the second one (removing the last parts). (But that's just me... and I haven't even read this article) --CyclePat 21:55, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

CyclePat HI Pat! I think I have addressed Joe's concerns, and reworded, carefully, citing actual sources. Actually the public was more appalled by the way Bonnie and Clyde died than they were delighted, though certainly a large number were happy the duo were gone. I have reworded the statements Joe was concerned about, reflecting what the sources actually said. NO source supported the sale of the souvenirs, which was plain robbery -- the Texas Department of Corrections, or Frank Hamer, lacked the authority to authorize the seizure of other people's weapons, or Bonnie and Clyde's few personal possessions, and have them sold. As for the horror of the scene after their death, with a man trying to cut off parts of Clyde's body, and people cutting pieces of Bonnie's hair and dress, check The Strange History of Bonnie & Clyde by John Treherne, generally regarded as the best sourced and researched book on the duo. Frank Hamer was in charge, and allowed it to happen, as did the posse members left on the scene -- all of whom took souvenirs of their own, again well sourced as noted. (I quoted directly from the coroner's horror upon arriving at what was happening - with Hamer not stopping it until the coroner asked him to do so. It is now worded literally from the direct source, and people can make up their own mind as to the disgrace, or whether it is just spiffy that an officer of the law let someone cut a dead girl's hair off and sell it. old windy bear 14:16, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

accuracy schmaccuracy

it's good that the historians and scrupulous researchers are minding this article:

Ironically, though they are remembered as bank robbers, they were not. Clyde preferred small stores or even gas stations.

even were the not-bank-robbers claim true (which it's not), how is that, by any definition, relating to, containing, or constituting irony? weren't bank robbers? see Twenty-first Century Update, Appendix Four, listing 10 banks known or suspected of being robbed by clyde barrow, some with the indirect participation of bonnie. clyde and his associates admitted to robbing some banks, and there were piles of witnesses corroborating that they did rob some banks -- facts not disputed except at wikipedia. if the point is that bonnie didn't rob banks, well she didn't rob stores or gas stations then either. the new version, as the old, treats them as a pair, so that's not obviously not the issue (though one never knows with the slippery). the "bank robbers" claim (added very early on) was never changed before the historians arrived, because it was neither misleading nor inaccurate. the article was edited further in (before the arrival of the historians) to state clearly that clyde preferred small stores and gas stations, and that he hit them far more than he did banks; didn't need to be addressed in the intro, and it still doesn't. they were bank robbers; elaboration can wait.

In her book about her year with Bonnie and Clyde Blanche Barrow also claimed Bonnie never shot anyone.

My Life with Bonnie and Clyde, page 66 (blanche barrow writing): Clyde laid one of the rifles across Bonnie's lap, with the barrel sticking out the window. He told Bonnie to hold it up and shoot. She did. We heard later that a woman was wounded in the arm.

only the start of how this article's gone downhill. we blame the ***PIG*, and remain: TruPatriot173 & ScrdBldTtd5982. 63.28.34.13 05:22, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Pig did some of the damage, but the one source you cited is contradicted by at least 5 other accounts of the duo which are better sourced - Blanche's was personal memory, written in prison, self serving, and she hated them both for what she considered getting her husband killed and her imprisoned. (Blanche forgot she made her own choices!) The article is consistent with the following sources, which all agree on Bonnie not shooting or killing anyone, and Clyde, while havnig robbed some banks, preferred smaller stores and gas stations, by a ration of 10 to 1 or greater!

  • Treherne, John (2000). The Strange History of Bonnie & Clyde. Cooper Square Press. ISBN 0815411065.
  • DeFord, Miriam Allen (1968). The Real Bonnie and Clyde. Sphere Books.

Hinton, Ted; Grove, Larry (1979). The Real Story of Bonnie and Clyde. Shoal Creek Publishers, Inc. ISBN 0883190419.

  • Shelton, Gene (1997). The Life and Times of Frank Hamer. Berkeley Books. ISBN 0425159736.
  • Matteson, Jason, 'Texas Bandits: A Study of the 1948 Democratic Primary"

Cartledge, Rick "The Guns of Frank Hamer,"

  • Milner, E.R. The Lives and Times of Bonnie and Clyde"
  • Steele, Phillip, and Scoma Barrow, Marie, The Family Story of Bonnie and Clyde

Topeka Capital-Jopurnal

  • Ted Hintonand and Alacorn justifying ambushing Bonnie and Clyde with no warning in the "Took no chances" article, Hinton and Alcorn tell Newspapermen Wednesday Night's Extra, Dallas Dispatch.
  • See also Geringer, Joseph BONNIE & CLYDE: ROMEO AND JULIET IN A GETAWAY CAR downloaded from the Crime Library Online at http://www.crimelibrary.com/americana/bonnie/main.htm

A genuine effort has been made to make this article consistent with the facts as they are known. For instance, there were no warrants for Bonnie for murder, though Clyde had at least 10. John Treherne actually went to the counties, cities, parishes (Louisiana) and searched the old records! As to the laws, I went to the Library of Congress and checked the statues of the states involved, following up on Treherne's work, I was curious, and he was correct. If your biggest quarrel is that they robbed some banks, that will be added because it is the truth. But the facts on Bonnie not deliberately ever shooting or killing anyone is extremely well sourced, and the best historical record we have. I don't see how this could be Kate's fault? People for some reason either want to believe Bonnie was totally innocent, (she was not, she was riding around with a psychopath while he killed people!), or totally villianous, which she also was not. As pointed out repeatedly, the law was different then, and she could not be charged for a murder Clyde committed while she sat in the car outside. At any rate, read some of the sources listed - Gerringer's online account BONNIE & CLYDE: ROMEO AND JULIET IN A GETAWAY CAR is actually pretty well sourced and accurate -- and you will see the article reflects what is generally conceded to be the truth.old windy bear 13:54, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

sofixit · Katefan0/poll 17:46, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
you're in charge, katefan... 63.28.48.232 17:58, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

error

despite multiple protestations of how horrid and error-ridden the article was before the historians arrived and "cleaned" it all up (ha!), there still remains a blatant error the ****PIG* inserted by mistake. can't find it? ted hinton's son saw it immediately when *PIG*** asked him to read the article last fall. it's been sitting there for months now. such scrutiny! bet it's there next year too. as ever, we stand in awe. TruPatriot173 & ScrdBldTtd5982 63.28.92.146 10:18, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

TruPatriot173 HI Tru, I am genuinely trying to clean this article up, based on the legitimate sources available. If I have missed something - though I question Ted Hinton's son as the best source, given the controversy over his claims after his father's death about what happened on the night and morning of the ambush - please let me know, and I will fix it at once. You are nice people, and I would appreciate your help. If something is genuinely wrong, please let me know, and I will fix it. I have added the note that Clyde participated in up to 10 known bank robberies, even though the vast majority of his criminal activity was not robbing banks. I am honestly trying to clean up the mess Pig made, so your help would be appreciated.old windy bear 14:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


sofixit · Katefan0/poll 17:46, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
...you fix it. use your admin key. hit somebody over the head. threaten the article into compliance! 63.28.48.232 17:58, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
... as opposed to whining/trolling it all better, I guess. The great thing about Misplaced Pages is that it's the encyclopedia that anybody can edit. If you see an error, just fix it. Easy peasy. · Katefan0/poll 18:00, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

charming. kinda like walking around all day picking up litter. creates a market for litter. nah, you jangle those keys loud enough, and i'll bet the article will fix itself. jangle jangle jangle! jangle! i mean, it hasn't worked yet, but it's bound to. stay the course. 63.28.48.232 18:09, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

As far as the historians arriving and correcting some of the errors you are misciting Blanche Barrow's book, which is not even regarded as the best source on the gang. Whether you like it or not these are the facts: Gang members W.D. Jones and Ralph Fults claimed Bonnie was strictly "logistical support," see John Neal Phillips book,"Running with Bonnie & Clyde: The Ten Fast Years of Ralph Fults." Also, in the book Riding with Bonnie and Clyde" W.D. Jones made the statement (as he had under Oath to the authorities) "Bonnie never packed a gun, out of the five major gun battles I was with them she never fired a gun." Writing with Phillip Steele in The Family Story of Bonnie and Clyde, Marie Barrow, Clyde's youngest sister, made the same claim: "Bonnie never fired a shot. She just followed my brother no matter where he went." The same accounts of Bonnie never shooting anyone is carried in The Real Bonnie and Clyde. by Miriam Deford, which is generally regarded as a good and thoroughly researched book on the duo. Probably the best source is John Treherne's work The Strange History of Bonnie & Clyde. (2000) which also stated that after exhaustively traveling the country and interviewing anyone left alive who remembered the events, studying all the police reports, "Bonnie never killed or shot anyone."

As to the issue of bank robbery, the point was not that they never robbed a bank - 10 is a high number, most historians put it at 5-8, but 10 is possible, but it doesn't compare to the literally dozens of small gas stations and Mom and Pop stores that Clyde preferred. However, I changed the article to reflect that Clyde did rob some banks, so it is more accurate, while preserving the point the vast bulk of his criminal endevors, such as they were, (Dillinger, for instance, considered Clyde a bumbling amataur and Bonnie a love struck fool that gave criminals a bad name!) Your statment that Bonnie was with him is also incorrect. Bonnie was in the car during virtually all of the crimes Clyde committed, which under the law at the time did not make her guilty of those crimes. In 1934 the states of Louisiana, Texas and the federal government lacked the laws we have today on accessory in the first and second degree and conspriracy which would have allowed charging Bonnie for Clyde's crimes. Ted Hinton's son is not the best source for asking about Bonnie and Clyde either, since he and he alone makes the claim that his father helped Frank Hamer tie Methvin's father to a tree all night the day before and during the ambush -- a claim Ted Hinton never made in his lifetime, but his son released after his death, when no one could ask him! Blaming Kate for this is ridiculous. old windy bear 13:35, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, she didn't shoot/kill anyone, we get it.

Granted, the common perception of Bonnie Parker as a murderer on par with Clyde Barrow is clearly wrong. And granted that the bulk of the evidence, including the most credible sources, would indicate that she never even so much as shot someone. And granted that she was never explicitly charged with or wanted for a murder, regardless of wether she committed one. Even taking all of that on faith, is it neccessary to repeat this fact FOURTEEN TIMES in this one article? It's repeated so much, sometimes copying the same quote from the same source multiple times, and often inserted out of nowhere at the end of some other paragraph, that it sounds like you're trying to convince the reader of something that's not true.

I don't personally own any of the source material, so I'm not going to attempt to edit the article, but I would suggest that the editors that do have access to the sources:

1. Clean up the citations a bit; since you refer to the same sources multiple times, I'd suggest the more typical academic citations like "..... (Butler 2003)" as opposed to footnotes.

2. Move all of the stuff about Bonnie's killing/not killing anyone to the "controversy" section, which seems to be the best place for it. Also, if it's true that Blanche Barrow claims she saw Bonnie shoot someone, you SHOULD mention that as a counter-argument; along with any information that would assist the reader in judging her credibility. e.g. "Blanche Barrow, claims that Bonnie ...; this claim comes from her book ..., which was written from jail many years after her brothers death, which she has publically blamed on Bonnie Parker." Or whatever the case may be. A sensible reader will be able to compare 3-4 unbiased sources vs. one potentially biased source and make up their own mind.

Kutulu 20:58, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Kutulu Some of your ideas are good ones, such as using the standard sourcing type wikipedia generally uses. I also think some of the references to her not shooting anyone could be limited.

1) As to the reference to Blanche Barrow's book, first, it was written in prison, it was extremely bitter, (which she had a right to be), it contradicts all other evidence and statements -- under Oath in court -- by members of the gang, and finally, Blanche claimed that shooting was an accident, in which someone was grazed accidently, and not during a crime. The distinction is important -- all Blanche claimed, in contradiction to virtually all other evidence, was that Bonnie accidently discharged a weapon that grazed someone, while at home,and not as a criminal act during a Barrow gang crime.

2) I think it is important to make reference to this during the section devoted to Bonnie, simply because the general perception is she was Clyde's equal, and that was wrong. It is mentioned again in the ambush, because it became a very important question, was shooting her without warning, when she had not committed murder, a crime in itself? Again, this issue arises in the aftermath.

But you are right, there are too many, and the citation format needs to be changed, and will be. Some already have been made, several of the references to Bonnie's not killing anyone have been removed, as have repeated uses of the same book name, and Blanche Barrow claim that Bonnie fired a rifle Clyde put in her lap out a window has been added. Still, the bottom line is that public officials fired 130 rounds, shooting a girl to pieces who was not wanted for any capital offense, and was committing no crime at the moment. Then the same public officials let people cut her hair off for souvenirs, and let her clothes be stolen for souvenirs. I think that pretty much speaks for itself. old windy bear 22:43, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

As to the reference to Blanche Barrow's book...
if the book is such a poor source, why was it misrepresented as a source until it was pointed out that it disagreed quite explicitly with the claim? the book was good enough when it was incorrectly assumed to fit a pet thesis. now that precision has been added, however, enough disclaimers can't be found (including a highly questionable, blanket "under Oath in court" claim -- uncited as usual) to discredit the same source, covering the same subject.
all Blanche claimed, in contradiction to virtually all other evidence, was that Bonnie accidently discharged a weapon that grazed someone, while at home,and not as a criminal act during a Barrow gang crime.
wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong. the choice of the benign word "discharged" above is just more evidence of a crusade. the section of barrow's book cited above (page 66 and context) makes it quite clear that blanche barrow claimed bonnie parker shot a rifle, intentionally, from a car window, during a getaway from an attempted bank robbery, and striking, according to the editor's notes re a newspaper article, one woman in the shoulder and "wounding" another in the arm. the grazing mentioned in the book footnotes was in addition to the shoulder wound.
that was clear from quotes from the book on this very page, but through selective transmission it has now been converted, quite erroneously, into a grazing. when does this fantastic approach end? contrary to distortion, significant evidence corroborates blanche barrow's account as perhaps being mild, and places the incident in lucerne, indiana, 12 may 1933. some witnesses reported seeing both women in the car (i.e., blanche and bonnie) using guns, from the car, in front of the Christian Church, firing "about forty shots toward a crowd of people who had poured out of their homes to see what the excitement was about." (pharos-tribune, 12 may 1933, via the footnotes in blanche's book.) the implied claim of opponents of these facts is that the moral difference between murder and peacefulness is somewhere around 5 minutes of arc, while shooting into a crowd of innocents from a moving car. absurd.
the article is now riddled with presumptuous, selectively cited, POV such as that refuted above. the new version is quite obviously on a mission to sanctify and protect bonnie parker, a woman who routinely aided murderers and thieves, living with abandon and without remorse off the proceeds of stolen wealth and lives. this is a woman who quite probably in march 1930 (with her cousin mary tagging along) burglarized a home, stole a gun, and smuggled it into prison for clyde's breakout. obviously, the key piece of info there is that clyde was in prison. she was the principal actor. good luck painting her a non-participant/saint upon a full examination of evidence. where is this burglary and direct role in a jailbreak mentioned while minimizing her role all through the article? what about her participation in the planning and execution of the 1934 eastham prison break? is this just play material -- something the average woman does? is supporting operations in which people are killed somehow a complete separation of moral culpability? it just goes on and on. she was an accomplice to murder, more than once. this is lost entirely in the new fantasy. nowhere in the article edits has there been anything, even against clyde barrow, approaching the vitriol piled on hamer and the rest of the posse. if bonnie parker was shooting a rifle indiscriminately into a crowd of presumably innocent, unarmed strangers, how is that any different from what hamer did, except perhaps worse? the case against bonnie parker goes on for miles, but it's all denied actively in the "historian" version. where in the article is the voice of the many innocent victims of the barrow gang to counter the pained fretting over somebody trying to cut souvenirs from the corpses of criminals? the solution is to zap 'em both from the editorializing side, and report facts dispassionately.
there must be accurate neutrality in any attempt to explain that the murder of parker by the state was questionable. the article did have this neutrality, and did correct common misunderstanding clearly and objectively -- get in, get out. it was thrown away so that a biased author could hold forth from the pulpit, attempting to correct decades of misunderstanding by essentially painting bonnie parker as a helpless victim, and using misleading and inaccurate techniques (primarily selective inclusion/exclusion, but including outright false claims) to do it. the debunking above is only the start of demonstrating how far off the article is now. but why should anybody else bother correcting it when somebody on a mission has a submit button that works overtime? no reason. the article will now stay a disaster, unless somebody wants to spend 5 unpaid months handholding and arguing against zealotry in POV and sloppy edits. what competent adult has the patience for that? 63.28.4.130 21:40, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

63.28.4.130 First of all, I sign my name, so you know who you are talking too, you are merely an im who drifts in and out -- it sort of diminishes your credibility. As to the Bonnie Parker article, there is only one source that claims she fired a gun at someone, and that was Blanche Barrow, who wrote it in prison, for profit, while extremely bitter. It is disputed by every other member of the gang who TESTIFIED UNDER OATH that Bonnie never shot anyone. Now you can like it, or dislike it, but historically, their testimony under Oath carries more credibility than Blanche's recollections in prison, while not under Oath, and recollections which dispute every other member of the gang, 3 of whom put those claims -- that Bonnie shot no one -- under Oath!

Further, while you talk about misleading and inaccurate techniques (primarily selective inclusion/exclusion, you fail to mention that BONNIE WAS NOT WANTED FOR MURDER. Clyde was. Does the article paint her a saint? Lord, no! Nor does it try to sanitize her stupidity in following and assisting a psychopath while he committed crimes! But you miss the basic point, or selectively refuse to address it, which is that NO RELIABLE SOURCE -- and sorry, but Blanche Barrow's account, not under Oath, not sworn, does not stand up legally or historically to W.D. Jones, Ralph Fuits, Hnery Methvin's, all of whom swore under oath that Bonnie shot no one.

It is the duty of this encylopedia to give the BEST EVIDENCE AVAILABLE. And it has done so. I went back and reread Blanche's claim, and reworded to reflect that. But your constant harping does not change the facts. old windy bear 02:37, 14 February 2006 (UTC)