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Archive

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Recent reverts

I rv'd London twice from User:JimmyGuano. See Talk:City_of_Manchester#Accuracy and the London Issue for more. Justinc 00:49, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I appreciate your reasons for reverting something that spun off another discussion, but the conurbation thing in particular is a pretty serious point (IMO a clear innaccuracy) quite independent of anything to do with Manchester, so I've addressed it below.JimmyGuano 01:08, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Conurbation

"Today, "London" usually refers to the conurbation known as Greater London, which is divided into thirty-two London Boroughs and the City of London." is a bit misleading. The conurbation extends quite a long way beyond Greater London in places and includes areas such as Watford, Dartford and Epsom, which are generally not considered London. Equally some parts of Greater London such as Biggin Hill are not part of the conurbation.

As there is an official region called simply "London", that covers an area identical to Greater London, is that not the straightforward modern definition of the term (one that is both officially sanctioned and conforms to popular usage)?

JimmyGuano 01:02, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Jimmy, it would seem that from other talk pages there is a consensus forming that British cities should have three articles. One for city proper, i.e. City of London, one for the conurbation (and indeed the Misplaced Pages definition of what a city is), i.e. London, and one for the metropolitan county, i.e. Greater London. This seems to be what we have for London and has now been suggested by many people as being appropriate for both Manchester and Leeds. Maybe a more appropriate article name for what you are discussing would be something along the lines of London (Region). Please refer to the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:City_of_Manchester

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_UK_subdivisions

EarlyBird 10:46, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

There are very good reasons for the London article to be a little vague and not be tied to a local government entity or indeed any one definition. This is because what is "London" is a little abstract. The following all could define London but no two match each other and none match up to any official local government definitions (either current or historic):

1. The London postal area (that is the area that has "London" in its address) is much smaller than London but actually includes a very small area not in London.
2. The 020 area code does not include all of Greater London but does include several places outside Greater London.
3. The urban sprawl/continuous built-up area does not stretch all the way to the Greater London boundary in some places but goes well beyond it in others.
4. The London Underground served area includes places outside Greater London
5. The TfL travelcard zones include some places outside Greater London

I imagine most other UK cities are the same. Mrsteviec 13:46, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree that all of those are valid definitions for their specific purposes and are entirely relevant to mention in the way that they are mentioned.

My problem is not with the article as a whole or with referring to various different definitions of London, but with the one sentence that I highighted and for very specific reasons:

- It clearly implies that the conurbation is called Greater London and is divided into 32 boroughs. As you say in your point 3, the conurbation covers a different area to Greater London and the 32 boroughs, so in saying this the sentence isn't vague, it is simply wrong.

- It states (IMO correctly) that "London" is usually used to refer to Greater London, but it doesn't mention the fact that the two terms are geographically interchangable in official as well as common usage. IMO this is a significant and relevant extra piece of information.

- While it is useful to mention the "London Postal District" and "London commuter belt" etc, it seems perverse to do so while omitting to mention the one area whose offical name is simply "London", which is the region.

JimmyGuano 22:03, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

tallest building

The article claims 1 canada square and 42 tower are both the tallest building. which is it?

Tower 42 or Natwest Tower is the tallest building in the City Of London, which is an area of London. One Canada Square is the tallest building in the whole of London. :) Singerisbored 22:15, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

London Portal

Hi - after seeing that New York (and Bucharest had their own portals, I was horrified to see that the greatest city on Earth did not. So I decided to create one... which was interesting in that I spent about 2 hours fiddling with columns and formatting that I didn't really understand just to get it to look right!

Anyway, there is SO much stuff out there on Wiki about London - every page about anything to do with London links to about 20 other London things that weren't there in the first place. It's a massive web of information basically, and so if some of you could help sort out the portal - fill in any missing bits and add stuff etc., it'd be sweet.

I've gottten most of my ideas off the New York portal, but just basic browsing gives you thousands of London-related pages...

Thanks anyway, Deano 11:44, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I've just had a read of the discussions above, and I can't help feel that lots of the article-size issues can be effectively resolved now that there is an effective, working portal. G-Man - you started splitting sections of the main article into new ones - is that still going on or have you finished? In any case, newly created articles can be used as the title links for Template:London topics - at the moment we are using Category links for areas that do not have their own articles.

On the whole, I'd suggest that WikiProject London has huge potential for being one of the most comprehensive and streamlined sub-sections of Misplaced Pages, but in the short-term we should attempt to emulate New York. I like to think that the portal has already achieved this goal, but that is a drop in the ocean of how much the is left to do.

Deano 17:29, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Population

i am trying to get the article on London rid of this temptation of "who's the biggest around".

we all know there are two major cities in the EU. One is London, the other is Paris. Why do people want to state London is bigger when they do not have a single clue that allows them to make a comparison? There has been substantial debate on the surface/population ratio, the word metropolitan region and the word metropolitan area.

1)First of all, the surface / population ration may be the easiest to determine, it is still subject to controversy. How many potato fields are people going to include in their so called LMA limits until the figures finally say in a sigh of relief: Yesss, London is the bigest city in Europe?

2)The Metropolitan region. Those who want to see London as the biggest the brightest etc. may regret to use this steroid figure to try and make their city look even bigger: if we use that logic, England being an island, there will come a moment when this LMR will not grow bigger, while continental cities and MRs (like the Ruhr and its 30 millions, or the consolidating Lyon Paris Lille Brussels TGV-linked stretch of metropolitan areas) are growing at the speed of the fast trains that are putting them one hour or two from each other.

People who think ahead of figures and try to think what urban phenomena is really about all come with the same conclusions, that I personnally value: the concept of capital is useless. there are no more capitals. we are all linked by ever growing competitivity in transportation and communication services. While People debate to know if London is the biggest city in the EU, the political, economic and financial decision-making area is slowly but surely moving eastward.

We all understand that it is painful to some people to have to realize that there is no more empire and no more centre for this empire, but this has been the reality for the last decades. Let's just consider London is a major city in Europe, and display relevant figures (those who still look for data putting London on the lead will find some objective consolation in the financial aspects)

cheers

Can't say I totally agree with the above. Call a spade a spade - London is the biggest city in the EU. Anyone can make up a measure that makes Paris larger, but any objective measure makes London the largest city in the EU. Trying to argue otherwise is like trying to argue that China is not the most populous country on the planet - it's just not true. Deano 16:52, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't find the issue of who has the biggest city all that interesting, though the stats do seem to indicate it is London. However, I'd take issue with the point about capital cities. Here the (unsigned) poster has missed the point about what 'urban phenomena is really about'. Certainly the EU is an increasingly intertwined and interconnected economic zone, but the amusing thing is that if anything this has, in an already highly urbanised and centralised UK, increased the role of London both as capital and major city, simply because of its geographical location. (This may not, of course, be a good thing.)

Add to this the fact that, in a nation whose demographic centre of gravity (for good or evil) is increasingly skewed to the southeast, precisely because of the above, London's role as cultural capital of the UK also takes on increasing significance. This last is not a mantle that can be easily assumed by Paris or any other Continental European city. Finally there is the role of London as administrative capital, once again indisputable.

The suggestion of post-imperial nostalgia is a bit of a slur and a non sequitur, by the way, the UK is mostly well beyond that. If anything it is, for example, France that will not let go of its colonial past. (My POV is in many ways francophile and definitely europhile, by the way.) Tarquin Binary 04:35, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

France is IME much more precious about the London/Paris struggle than Britain, on the whole people in the UK couldn't care less if London is the biggest, whereas the issue appears to obsess the French newspapers and so on; perhaps this is partly because of French fears about slipping in the international economic league as their backwards economy struggles along. (this latter comment is a joke of course - what the heck does Britain have to match airbus??) Anyway, just been doing some in-depth research on UN population sites and so on. Most sites seem to agree that the "London Travel to Work" area (a term beloved of population demographers) is the largest not just in the EU but in the whole of the European continent, with some 16-18 million people depending on definitions; France's comparable area, the Isle de France and some pieces of surrounding departements, consists of around 11.5 million people. When you get down to actual city boundaries or recognized contiguous mapped exurbia/inurbias, the London > Paris distinction gets even more marked, with for example a contiguous conurbia popn for London of 12.1 million and for Paris of only 7.9. So I think the facts point to London being larger on all definitions. Also of course most commentators agree London is one of the World Cities but not Paris. All of this is not good news IMO for Britain, which is hopelessly skewed politically and economically to the interests of the London upper middle and upper classes, their concerns and whims dominating even more so than Paris is normally seen to dominate France. Any takers for moving London to the USA?MarkThomas 08:14, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Archive

The page was getting pretty heavy so I've shifted everything before mid-October into Archive 2. Hope nobody disagrees too much with my decision... I'm fairly sure all the topics archived were dead... Deano 23:16, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

London poverty, squalor

Hi, nowhere in this article is there a mention of one of the most striking aspects of London and one if its sources of infamy, from the early 1800s till now - the large number of poor neighbourhoods and ghettoes that make up London. Since we're writing a modern, informative article, and not a touristy fluff piece, there's no need to be squeamish or genteel about these things, I think we ought to mention all the stuff that inspired Engels, Orwell, and other famous writers, and some of the problems that continue to plague the city. I'm trying to effect the same on other city articles. -- Simonides 23:54, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

The London article is already long (not surprisingly). I would be inclined to replace the Business section with a better written (but still brief) Economy of London section which can mention some of these issues (and other important things), and a seperate more detailed article covering the history and current issues. I might at least make a stub for Economy of London (probably the best title?) as there is currently only a (rather sparse) Category:Economy of London. But there is lots to work with - I see Henry Mayhew has a short article which is good. Justinc 00:50, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Tend to agree with you, (except that I wouldn't use the word ghetto too often. It's hard, I think, to find ghettoes in London in the strict sense of the word, which is not to say that they may not end up being created if care isn't taken.) Anyway, poor neighbourhoods, agreed. At the moment, I'm trying to make sure that we have some social housing photos on the Commons, but only have a couple, and the temptation is to show the sort of grand porticos that the older LCC estates often possess. (Oh, and I don't mean to imply that all tenants of social housing are deprived, usually it's a much better situation to be in than private rental, but we have a fair few problem estates up here in Hackney.) Some real grotty street pics would be handy too. Be nice to show the other side of the coin... Tarquin Binary 18:20, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

This is too vast a topic to deal with in this article but it is already touched on, and should be expanded on, in History of London. Any romantic idea about there still being ghettos of poverty in London, such as the East End should be dispelled right now. The real poverty, or social exclusion, in the UK is not in London at all; it is in rural places where there is no access to public transport and services. Where children and the elderly do not travel free (as they do in London). Where large estates are miles distant from good housing (and schools) - unlike London where social and private housing is adjacent in every borough from Tower Hamlets to Westminster. Where there is no access to large supermarkets with discounted prices, no access to any job markets, libraries etc. etc. Mrsteviec 18:41, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I think we'd have to say there were different indices of deprivation, so I don't entirely agree. Like on several, Hackney is counted in the top three most deprived areas in the UK, but on employment, no, you're right there. I would agree that I'd rather be poor in London (and I have been) than poor in rural Oxfordshire, say. It's cheaper to be poor here, for a start, as you pointed out :) And we should be clear that there are no ghettos. More social housing pix added, by the way, that I just happened to take today. Actually those are quite des res-type estates, in fact - I'm just working up to try to show that Hoxton isn't all YBAs, it wasn't really about poverty as such. :) Tarquin Binary 19:37, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

"ghettos of poverty" have never been romantic. And travel in London has always been free to the poor - they walked. While Cornwall is I think technically the poorest part of the UK (and the only county without a University), London has always appeared on the EU lists of deprived places. Inequality is much higher. But unlike many cities poverty is not ghettoised by location, or less so. London is one of 9 areas in the UK that gets EU Objective 2 funding for example. But the main point is that we have no article about the economy of London, what makes it rich or poor. Justinc 00:44, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Corrected a few things

I have corrected the following points in the introduction:

1. "London is the largest, most populous city in the European Union"
   I have deleted "largest". Greater London (1,580 km²), if we consider it as a city (but that's another debate), is smaller than the city of Cáceres, Spain (1,768 km²).
2. "with an estimated population on 1 January 2005 of 7,421,328 and a metropolitan area population of 13,945,000."
   I have replaced the 13,945,000 figure with a more neutral "and several million more living in the metropolitan area". I remind people that the UK Office for National Statistics does not define metropolitan areas, therefore there is no official figure for the metropolitan area of London. Private researchers have tried to give a figure for the metropolitan area, but none agree on the exact limit of that metropolitan area, therefore there are many figures that circulate. The estimates for the metropolitan area of London generally vary from a minimum of 11 million to a maximum of 14 million. Check for instance this research paper for a list of diverging figures for the metropolitan area of London: , page 2. To pick one of these numbers and present it as THE number is simply POV. To remain neutral we have to be somewhat vague and say "several million more", or if people prefer we can say that there are "between 11 and 14 million inhabitants in the metropolitan area depending on sources", either way.
3. "making the capital the most linguistically diverse city in the world (London: Multilingual capital of the world, A Buncombe and T MacArthur, The Independent, London, 29 March 1999)."
   This statement is simply untrue, although it pretends to be based on a newspaper article, but then we all know that not everything that is written in newspaper is necessarily true. At the 1999 French census the INSEE conducted a language survey and found that 450+ languages were spoken in Paris. And in New York City or Los Angeles there are also hundreds of languages spoken by the millions of immigrants from all around the world that live there. I think it is a bit ridiculous to try to determine which city is "the most linguistically diverse". All the largest metropolises of the western world, such as NYC, LA, Paris, or London, are bound to have hundreds of languages, due to immigrant communities. What's more, it all comes down to the definition of the word "language". Are Serbian and Croatian two different languages or just two dialects of the same language? Is Bihari a dialect of Hindi or a separate language? You get the point. So I have replaced the statement with a more neutral "one of the most linguistically diverse cities in the world". Hardouin 13:10, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

3RR

I don't want to get bogged down in this argument again personally but can I remind those editing this page at the moment of the three revert rule. Thanks. Mrsteviec 15:46, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

The anonymous user 82.35.100.95, who has been editing this article repeatedly since November 11, never expresses him/herself, never gives a summary title to his/her edits, and never writes anything on the discussion page, therefore it is quite difficult to discuss this rationally with him/her. I suggest you check the history of his/her contributions to Misplaced Pages (Contributions:82.35.100.95). That says a lot about his/her obsessions. Hardouin 18:05, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Four global cities

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but who decided the 'four global cities' mentioned in the intro? The phrasing makes it sound like it is something official, which I don't believe it is. We can surely indicate London's eminence among cities without having to resort to an arbitrary list. DJ Clayworth 16:11, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

It looks like someone's original research to me, and highly contentious original research at that, so I have removed it, SqueakBox 16:40, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Contentious? I always thought it was an accepted fact that they were THE four global cities... apparently not... Deano 17:14, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

--Just look at the article for global city, the four listed are part of the GAWC rankings, and more importantly, there is nearly universal agreement among people who study the topic about the inclusion of these four. I really don't think there's anything contentious about it, even people who live in LA or Hong Kong would likely acknowledge this. --Jleon 17:11, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

A classificatory system like that linked is fine, but there is also the functional categorisation from the original World City concept in which there are THREE first rank world cities (bye-bye Paris) defined by their specific functional role at the top of the world financial hierarchy (Friedmann, J (1986) 'The World City Hypothesis' Development and Change, Vol 17 pp 69-83. and Friedman, J and Wolff, G (1982) 'World City Formation: An Agenda for Research and Action' International Journal of Urban and Regional Research, Vol 6 No.3, pp.319-344). The classificatory approach appears to be the one on common usage now, despite being barren of any explanatory power: you pays yer money.... Icundell 18:09, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

The fact that those categorisations, using specific financially weighted criteria, are in Global city is not a reason to put them in this more generalised article. It is the height of POV for this article to promote London as one of the 4 major cities in the world, whereas our primary duty is to create a POV neutral article, SqueakBox 19:42, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

May I reiterate the comments of Jleon - the four global cities are almost universally recognised. Something that is universally recognised is not POV. The four global cities are therefore not POV. "It is the height of POV for this article to promote London as one of the 4 major cities in the world, whereas our primary duty is to create a POV neutral article". Given that the four global cities are accepted by nearly all academics in the field, methinks it is "our duty" to include such information in the article. Deano 20:40, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Academic beliefs aren't the only factor to be taken into consideration in any encyclopedic article. I don't believe it is a generally accepted view that these are the world's 4 greatest cities by other than a minority of people, and that most people who don't live in the US, UK, Japan and France would dispute this claim. It seems unnecesarily contentious to place such a claim in the article. In other criteria like beauty a city like Rio might well come out on top. In terms of historical ruins what about Rome and Athens. All these categories are valid for a general London article. And why Paris? Why Tokyo for that matter? Some wider sourcing of this claim would be helpful at this point, SqueakBox 21:02, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Well I think you have changed the remit slightly. The four cities are the four "global"<\u> cities, and what makes them such is clearly set out in the linked article. True, in terms of beauty, history etc. etc. they may not be there, but these areas are irrelevant. The concept of the "global cities" is set out in the article, and it defines the four major global cities as London, NYC, Paris and Tokyo.

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