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Still on somewhat reduced Wiki presence.

Alice and proper procedure:

'That's very important,' the King said, turning to the jury. They were just beginning to write this down on their slates, when the White Rabbit interrupted: 'UNimportant, your Majesty means, of course,' he said in a very respectful tone, but frowning and making faces at him as he spoke.

'UNimportant, of course, I meant,' the King hastily said, and went on to himself in an undertone,

'important--unimportant--unimportant--important--' as if he were trying which word sounded best. ...........

The King turned pale, and shut his note-book hastily. 'Consider your verdict,' he said to the jury, in a low, trembling voice. ..... 'No, no!' said the Queen. 'Sentence first--verdict afterwards.' .......

'Who cares for you?' said Alice, (she had grown to her full size by this time.) 'You're nothing but a pack of cards!'

Practice

The practice is to discount indef blocked users if they are block evading. Not if they made a legitimate sock free contribution before they were blocked. Polargeo (talk) 16:35, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Interesting dichotomy you seek to claim. Alas, not what I found in the past on WP process pages. Collect (talk) 17:32, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Global warming

You are involved in a recently-filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests#Global warming and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—

• Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests#Requests for Arbitration;
• Misplaced Pages:Arbitration guide.

Thanks, Ryan Postlethwaite 21:19, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Talk page etiquette

Please do not change comments already replied to without making that change very clear. Thanks. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:55, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I noted it as an emendation and italicized it - how else should I have made it clearer? Collect (talk) 20:04, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I've usually found it useful to use strikeout and a clear note what was changed and when, so that readers can understand what others replied to. Or, to make it simpler, just restate the modified proposal completely below. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:47, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Which would be true of any comments I made - but scarcely applicable to the proposal - especially when I took your concerns in account in the emendation. Indeed, I would have thought you would give approbation to the changes. Collect (talk) 22:03, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't see why there is a difference between the proposal or any other discussion. Any reader who does not check the history will get the impression that my comment refers to the current version. That is why such changes are not acceptable. As for the substance, that addresses one of my concerns, and is a clear improvement there. But it does nothing to address the others. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:14, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

You feel that your position that it would be misinterpreted is not aided by the emendation? Which concern is now the chief problem for you? Tha purpose is to make it right, not to engage in debate. Thanks! Collect (talk) 23:02, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

No. How is a reader supposed to know that your "claims that this is over-broad" refers to my comment that, according to what the page currently claims, happened 20 minutes after your text? My other concerns are listed on the BLP talk page, where we should discuss the content questions. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:23, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

All one would likely realize is that material in italics is new. Especially since I left a parenthetical note saying exactly that <g>. Collect (talk) 23:27, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

climate change RFC

You wrote:

Thus nothing which affects that rule can be established here, most especially any requirement in a belief that a "scientific point of view" exists, or ought to exist, or should be given any special status whatsoever.

Are you saying that WP editors should treat the concept of scientific consensus as invalid or improper? Thanks. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 20:07, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

I am saying that WP:NPOV overrides anyone claiming that "scientists agree that thus and such is Truth." Scientific "consensus" is the same as consensus in any field - that is, it should be fairly and proportionately represented. It should not, however, be used as an argument to debar other points of view or opinions, nor should it be used as an excuse to place other views in a bad light, or to suggest any impropriety or venality on the part of those with differing views. Collect (talk) 21:58, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

I'd appreciate it if you could give an example of an article that has had such a problem--thanks again. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 00:08, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

What counts is that several editors stated that the "SPOV" should be regarded as privileged. I found that to be a disturbing POV in esse. Collect (talk) 01:15, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any statements in the RFC that the SPOV should be regarded as privileged, though maybe they exist in other venues. Anyway, you seem to be saying some unclear or mutually conflicting things: 1) WP should act as if there is no such thing as an SPOV; 2) there is an SPOV but it shouldn't be treated specially. So I'm having trouble seeing what you're getting at. In particular I'd like to know how you propose to assess the weight of authority for scientific vs other viewpoints on clearly scientific issues (e.g. the effect of carbon emissions on climate change), as opposed to non-scientific topics (e.g. whether person X took action Y for an improper or venal reason).

FWIW, I notice that your arbcom quote appears to be from Russavia-Biophys. It would be helpful if you mentioned that in your statement, for ease of location if someone wants to examine the context. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 01:47, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Reread the CC discussions. You will find cases where the favoring of some "SPOV" is mentioned as a goal. The ArbCom quote is material found in many ArbCom cases - not just the Russavia case. I cited it as being the most recent iteration of the statement, not as the only one. And my point is that no POV should ever be regarded as privileged. BTW, my background is in Physics, where no POV is ever regarded s privileged. Case in point - the long held belief that matter and anti-matter are in balance. They aren't - and the latest papers indicate that perhaps they never were, and that the "dark matter" theories may just be wrong. As for the claims of venality, read some of the histories of the BLPs of some of the "septics" as one editor calls them. Collect (talk) 11:47, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Since you are the one making claims, I think it falls on you to supply examples of what you are claiming. I do see a suggestion of SPOV by Count Iblis but I wouldn't attach much significance to that. I've had interaction with Count Iblis in the past; IMO he is well-meaning but pretty naive about how WP works. I don't think he's been editing CC articles but I might be mistaken about this. You still haven't answered my question about how to determine weight of authority about a scientific question, when scientific sources have a clear consensus but differing viewpoints exist in other types of venues. Example: geologists say there was an ice age 20,000 years ago; young-earth creationists say that couldn't have happened since the Earth is only 6000 years old. Should WP report these two viewpoints as having equal credibility? 69.228.170.24 (talk) 19:15, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

my view in the election

My view is similar to yours. The difference is that when there is a shortage, one has to be less wasteful. Some of the SPI requests do not need CUers. The behavior is clearly bad and CU searching is just wasting the limited manpower available that could be adjudicated based on bad behavior alone. It is like gasoline. When there is a shortage, you stop wasteful use and conserve it for emergency uses. I'm not saying not to elect people but to manage a limited resource well. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 19:17, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. And agree on what needs a full Checkuser and what only needs confirmation that two accounts are basically from the same area and show other traits in common. Meanwhile, I think most editors do not see the need for additional titles for anyone at all ... Collect (talk) 19:24, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Another observation is that the CU workload is high because WP culture is way too tolerant of socking. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 21:53, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

See User:Collect/personas Collect (talk) 22:24, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Who?

ATren (talk) 12:17, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Ratel. Hipocrite (talk) 12:22, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't know how I missed that. ATren (talk) 12:54, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Mass killings under Communist regimes

While the New York Times is a relible source, it does not mean that every article they publish may be cited in every article. Surely you would agree that today's story about the U.S. oil spill his no place in this article. The text I removed said nothing about mass killings under Communist regimes but was about a trial. The findings of the tribunal are not a reliable source about mass killings either. TFD (talk) 21:54, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

It is RS. It covers the specific claim made. It therefore ought not be deleted. You are insserting what you "know" when that is specifically against WP policy. Collect (talk) 00:02, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Could you please reverse your recent edits on this article, which is subject to a IRR restriction. While the material may be new, it is clear from the discussion page that there is opposition to continued reference to trials when no reliable sources have been presented to substantiate the underlying charges. (Also, I have replied to your concerns on the article's talk page.) TFD (talk) 15:39, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I added new material. This is not in any way a revert of any material in the article, and, as such, is perfectly proper. Thank you. Collect (talk) 15:42, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Funnily enough i added new material which was promptly reverted out and like the stuff you just added is reliably sourced any ideas Collect as to why these three editors seem intent on removing the deaths of all those people form the article? mark nutley (talk) 12:43, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

FWIW, check out the past AfDs on the article, and on related topics. Also check out any AfDs nominated by any of the editors on the page. This is general advice for any area - including Scientology, Climate Change, Prem Rawat, Eastern Europe or any other areas on WP. In the case at hand, you might note . Collect (talk) 12:55, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Anyone would think these guys are commies :) There reasons for removing material are spurious at best i think, and when asked for these new scholarly works which show C did not kill all those people i am told by paul siebert, I do not have to provide any sources is it not against policy to remove material which is reliably sourced saying there is new evidence which discounts the old, and then actually refuse to show it? mark nutley (talk) 17:37, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

WP has procedures in place to solicit additional editors to view the article. Alas, there are many areas where a group can prevent reliably sourced material from being added to articles. Collect (talk) 18:12, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Reported != blocked

To avoid over-complicating the ArbCom page: You missed the first part of my question. How many of those 20 have actually been blocked? Have, indeed, any of those been blocked? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:10, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Several appear to have been blocked for some period of time. Meanwhile "the usual" is not "evidence." How many would you regard as acceptable if you had been one of them, by the way? Collect (talk) 18:17, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Several << 20. I've looked over the cases again - as far as I can see, only two accounts not confirmed as socks have been blocked based on this suspicion. One of them after mistaken positive CU, for 4 hours (the account was infdef'ed a week later for disruptive editing), and one with an unclear CU result - the block still stands. Of course, several have been blocked for other reasons (disruptive editing and 3RR), but that has nothing to do with the integrity of the SPI process. And "the usual", combined with a link to the contribution history, is evidence. If I had been reported to SPI (I may have been once, but I'm not sure), I would be unconcerned. If I had been blocked, I would have used an unblock template like user:WavePart and been unblocked. No big deal. Few things on Misplaced Pages are irreversible. Your current contribution at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Sock_Puppet_Standards_of_Evidence gives the impression that "one out of seven" reported accounts are "forced off Misplaced Pages" as a result of a faulty SPI report. That is clearly wrong. Will you restate this or should I add a note explaining this to my statement? BTW, you quote "only one out of seven" as if that's something I had said. Maybe you interpret quotes differently, but I find that a problematic use. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:53, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

As the "one in seven" was from the "85%" figure, you might try yelling at that editor <g>. What figure is closer to the 85% figure? Do you know who cited the 85% figure by any chance? Collect (talk) 20:33, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

If you paraphrase you do not quote. I don't quite understand what you mean about the figures - do you want to point out that 1/7 is roughly 15%? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:56, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

In fact, it is closer to 14 1/2 %. Did you find the person who gave the 85% figure by ny chance? Collect (talk) 22:23, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think this is going anywhere. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:47, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

All I did was point out where the "one in seven" came from. I wonder just where you thought it would lead? Collect (talk) 22:56, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

All you did was showing either bad research or an inability to express the results cogently, and an appalling misuse of quote marks. I was hoping that you would correct your obvious misrepresentations. It seems as if I was wrong. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:08, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I added material to show that 6/7 is not' the same as 85% as you seem to wish me to do. Collect (talk) 11:52, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, you are wrong. I want you to avoid the use of quote marks unless you are actually quoting, and I want you to retract what appears to be the wrong claim that 20 innocent new editors were "forced of" Misplaced Pages. I thought I was clear that I'm not concerned about 3rd significant digit rounding effects in your arithmetic. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I used the quotation marks as is proper journalistic practice to indicate that a phrase is being used which might not otherwise be clear. If you read the general manuals of style, you will note that this is normal practice. As I never said that the 20 were forced off of WP, that part is a teensy bit irrelevant. Retracting what I did not say is a neat idea, I suppose. Collect (talk) 12:25, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

RFAR Race and intelligence

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 12:21, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

The Gore Effect AfD

You previously commented on Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Marknutley/The Gore Effect (2nd nomination). A new version of the article has been created in article space at The Gore Effect and has been nominated for deletion. If you have any views on this, please feel free to comment at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The Gore Effect. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:13, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

RFC discussion of User:JClemens

A request for comments has been filed concerning the conduct of Jclemens (talk · contribs). You are invited to comment on the discussion at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Jclemens. SnottyWong talk 23:56, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change

An Arbitration request in which you are involved has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change/Workshop.

Additionally, please note that for this case specific procedural guidelines have been stipulated; if you have any questions please ask. The full outline is listed on the Evidence and Workshop pages, but please adhere to the basics:

• The issues raised in the "Sock Puppet Standards of Evidence" and "Stephen Schultz and Lar" requests may be raised and addressed in evidence in this case if (but only if) they have not been resolved by other means.
• Preparation of a formal list of "parties to the case" will not be required.
• Within five days from the opening of the case, participants are asked to provide a listing of the sub-issues that they believe should be addressed in the committee's decision. This should be done in a section of the Workshop page designated for that purpose. Each issue should be set forth as a one-sentence, neutrally worded question—for example:
  • "Should User:X be sanctioned for tendentious editing on Article:Y"?
  • "Has User:Foo made personal attacks on editors of Article:Z?"
  • "Did Administrator:Bar violate the ABC policy on (date)?"
  • "Should the current community probation on Global Warming articles by modified by (suggested change)?"

The committee will not be obliged to address all the identified sub-issues in its decision, but having the questions identified should help focus the evidence and workshop proposals.

• All evidence should be posted within 15 days from the opening of the case. The drafters will seek to move the case to arbitrator workshop proposals and/or a proposed decision within a reasonable time thereafter, bearing in mind the need for the committee to examine what will presumably be a very considerable body of evidence.
• Participants are urgently requested to keep their evidence and workshop proposals as concise as reasonably possible.
• The length limitation on evidence submissions is to be enforced in a flexible manner to maximize the value of each user's evidence to the arbitrators. Users who submit overlength diatribes or repetitious presentations will be asked by the clerks to pare them. On the other hand, the word limit should preferably not be enforced in a way that hampers the reader's ability to evaluate the evidence.
• All participants are expected to abide by the general guideline for Conduct on arbitration pages, which states:
• Incivility, personal attacks, and strident rhetoric should be avoided in Arbitration as in all other areas of Misplaced Pages.
• Until this case is decided, the existing community sanctions and procedures for Climate change and Global warming articles remain in full effect, and editors on these articles are expected to be on their best behavior.
• Any arbitrator, clerk, or other uninvolved administrator is authorized to block, page-ban, or otherwise appropriately sanction any participant in this case whose conduct on the case pages departs repeatedly or severely from appropriate standards of decorum. Except in truly egregious cases, a warning will first be given with a citation to this notice. (Hopefully, it will never be necessary to invoke this paragraph.)

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, ~ Amory (u • t • c) 00:35, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit to Union busting

Hi--with this edit to the union busting article you added some CN tags and deleted about half the lede. I've tried to follow up with some of the CN issues. However, the lede was the result of an extremely long discussion last year between a number of editors (myself included). I returned the lede to what was the consensus last year; of course there's no reason it should be set in stone, but would appreciate some discussion on the talk page if you think it should be edited further as your edit note only mentioned RS issues (did that apply to the lede, too?). Thanks. --Goldsztajn (talk) 16:52, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

The consensus was never really a consensus...but it was the result of a long debate between 2 people and myself. I would appreciate a pair of eyes on this that are less interested than theirs.LedRush (talk) 18:28, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

I see no reason for much of the "Article" as written. Consensus can not allow use of any non RS sources. Collect (talk) 19:33, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Plumber ref

Hi

I noticed you added a ref for the text claiming that plumber comes from Roman roofers rather than people that merely worked with lead - although the book is obviously a good one from 1897 I think that the ref does not really back up the claim. All the ref does is link to the book and without quoting page number it is not really a valid ref is it ?

If you have a copy can you paste the quote into the Quote box for the ref so it will be displayed for all to see?

At present I cannot find a single sentence in that book which ties roof with lead or plumbum

thanks Chaosdruid (talk) 20:12, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually I found many refs -- the fact is that Romans had a lot more roofs than indoor toilets <g>. 16th century England had a large number of roofs with lead - and no toilets. See page 321 of this work to see the cite about using lead for drain-pipes from roofs, noting the use of lead in Pompeii as an example. Consider further which makes the specific statement "Lead sheet was used for roofing ..." All of the older English churches (pre-7th century) had lead roofs, as apparently did the Pantheon. Collect (talk) 23:46, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

add also showing clearly an English of "plumber" to refer to working on roofs. Collect (talk) 23:53, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Moved to Plumber talk page to free up your user page Chaosdruid (talk) 01:02, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Climate change moving to Workshop

This Arbitration case is now moving into the Workshop phase. Please read Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration#Workshop to understand the process. Editors should avoid adding to their evidence sections outside of slight tweaks to aid in understanding; large-scale additions should not be made. Many proposals have already been made and there has already been extensive discussion on them, so please keep the Arbitrators' procedures in mind, namely to keep "workshop proposals as concise as reasonably possible." Workshop proposals should be relevant and based on already provided evidence; evidence masquerading as proposals will likely be ignored. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 20:37, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Re: GoRight

Have you considered that all of the coincidences between the two editors, from the obsession with Al Gore, to the CamelCase user name, to the shared grammar and vocabulary and style of argumentation, are best explained as the singular usage of one editor avoiding a community ban, rather than the remarkable and unusual identical and matching contributions from two different users? What makes you think that it is more likely a new user than a returning user? I'm not following you. There is no good evidence pointing to the existence of anything more than one user editing from multiple accounts. As I have said before, it is possible that someone is deliberately pretending to be GoRight, but unlikely. Viriditas (talk) 00:01, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

I examined the edit summaries - which are of zilch value as they are basically all common words. I did not examine talk page edits. Nor did I make any comment at all about "new" v. "returning" user, so I think you may be confusing my post with others. You might also look at my essay on alternate personas at User:Collect/personas. Collect (talk) 00:05, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Tell me then, what significant differences did you find when you compared edit summaries?Viriditas (talk) 00:11, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

As there were no really noteworthy wording usages, I would say a few thousand editors would fall into the same word usage category. Sort of like finding two people in a supermarket who buy some ground beef - enough other people also buy ground beef that one does not need to say that the two people bought distinct ground beef, but more that so many buy it, that it is a meaningless distinction. When looking for socks over the decades, I found such clues as specific alliterative phrases, and misspellings, were genuine clues. Use of common words was never a good clue. Look, for example, for people who write "comprimize" on WP - and the odds are greater that they are related than finding two people using common words being related<g>. Collect (talk) 00:20, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

I think you are forgetting many important aspects of sock puppetry, such as the psychology of socking. Some users want to be caught, and others may just give themselves away with certain "tells", providing sock hunters with needed clues. Viriditas (talk) 00:31, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

I have dealt with users with "alternate personas" online for about two decades. I daresay I am experienced enough to spot solid evidence (such as statistically improbably coincidences etc.). Common words, alas, do not fit that level, even if users are alternate personas. Perhaps you have been around as long, or not. I had to handle forums with cumulative userbases of several hundred thousand <g>. And manage the relative handful of genuine problem users. Collect (talk) 03:37, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Another proposed revision to Koch Industries

Hello Collect, I'm sure you'll remember giving input on my work involving the Koch Industries article earlier this year, with which I need to be careful for COI reasons. I've recently proposed another not-insignificant update to the article, cleaning up a particularly messy section about its environmental and safety record, although the article has been very quiet and I haven't received any comment on my suggestions. The section in question is this one, my proposed replacement is right here, and my explanation is on the talk page. Please let me know what you think, and meantime I've also sought input from one other previously-involved editor. Thanks, NMS Bill (talk) 13:07, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Reduced it a bit, and used. Collect (talk)

Re

Thank you, but I can not comment on the AfD because of my topic ban.Biophys (talk) 15:09, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

NP. Notified only to avoid any claims that I did not do the canvassing in a non-neutral manner at all. Collect (talk) 15:20, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Sure, thanks. But please do not do it again. I left a disclaimer at my talk page to clarify this.Biophys (talk) 17:25, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

I am highly unlikely to seek any discomfort for you! Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:29, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. As about "canvasing", one of proofs of my misconduct was this diff: (taken from FoF about me).Biophys (talk) 17:35, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

A little defence

A little defence of me at arbcom along these lines would help for consistancy. Polargeo (talk) 12:14, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. Polargeo (talk) 20:32, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

You are welcome. Collect (talk) 23:02, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Canvassing

All those user talk page posts you made as to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Mass killings_under Communist regimes (3rd nomination)#Mass killings under Communist regimes were outside the bounds of Misplaced Pages:Canvassing. First, it was not a limited posting (it was a spamming with dozens of posts). Second, you posted to user talk pages and third, saying something is "neutral" doesn't make it neutral, many editors may still think you're in some way not being neutral, whatever you may have in mind yourself. There would also be worries as to how you selected the users to whose talk pages you posted, but that's the least of them. The only mass posts I know of that are put up with on en.WP are fluffy "feel-good" things like season's greetings and RfA thank-you notes (which are called "RfA spam"): Dozens of posts to user talk pages (or anywhere else) about editorial or policy discussions aren't ever allowed and these are always seen as spam.

If you wan't to draw lots of eyes to something, do so on a project noticeboard or other page, never spam user talk pages.

I think you must have made a mistake and didn't mean to breach the policy. Now you know. It was way beyond the pale. If you do something like this again, you could easily get yourself blocked. Gwen Gale (talk) 08:19, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

The posts were in response to a specific biassed CANVASS by another poster, and were specifically mentioned on the AfD page - they were not a "spamming" and respresented a specific allowed use of CANVASSing using an extraordinarily neurtral post. The posts were s

Why you're responding to this in two threads, I don't know. As I said on my talk page, your posts were not within policy, you sent out way too many. Please don't do it again. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:48, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Policy requires "everyone" (that is the word used) - it is hard to limit "everyone" without selecting them - which is precisely against the specific policy <g>. You might note that where I asked about this, that a very experienced user said that I behaved fully properly here. Now will I do it again? Not likely. Was I wrong to do it here? Nope. Thanks! Collect (talk) 15:29, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

As I said on my talk page, the policy also says Do not send notices to too many users. There is a table in on the policy page which straightforwardly shows that postings which aren't "limited" are too many. Dozens of posts are not limited, dozens of posts wlinking to a content discussion are too many. As I also said earlier, I think you made a mistake and didn't mean to breach the policy, this has aught to do with "wrong."

As for the other account, having had some time to come back later and look into it, I agree that it's a sock up to something unhelpful and I've blocked it. I might have done sooner had you given me a diff instead of quoting them by copy pasting onto my talk page (I thought you were talking about yourself at first) and noted the odd contribution history.

I'm happy to help out, but please don't be coy about telling me what you want me to do and why (no, I don't think you were "wrong" for posting about all this in ways I took to be "coy"). Gwen Gale (talk) 16:52, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Please amend your evidence

"Reverted in rapid succession by WMC, Verbal and Schulz -- who found that using such a clearly biassed word such as "stated" was sufficient to label a person a Scibaby sock whose edits can be reverted on sight without regard to any 3RR (or 1RR) limits at all. Evidence? Changing "found" to "stated" is clearly egregious POV pushing on the part of Wealths Wealth. A clear case of sufficient proof of being Scibaby?" I have never claimed that anyone was a SciBaby sock. I know nothing about SciBaby. Please clarify or remove this untrue statement which may mislead arbiters. Also, if you refer to someone in an ArbCom case it is the minimum you can do to inform them. Verbal chat 16:41, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

I note that you find "found" to be POV as compared to "stated." And that you were one of the reverters of the basic edit. My statement (foundment?) was that the person was reverted by three specific editors - which is a matter of fact. Are you here "state"ing that you do not believe the person to be a Scibaby sock? I wopuld be delighted to emend the comment to state that you do not believe the person to be a sock of any ilk. No problem. Collect (talk) 18:53, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

I have no knowledge of Scibaby either way. The reason I reverted was because "found" or "concluded" was a correct statement, whereas "stated" weakened the text, reducing the sourced informational content of the article. I did not revert on sight because of any socking issues, but because it was a bad edit in my opinion - and I stated why on the talk page. Thanks, Verbal chat

And thank you for being reasonable about this. Verbal chat 19:50, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

You are welcome. Collect (talk) 00:32, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

<g>-2010-07-29T20:51:00.000Z">

Are you still living in the BBS era? <g> –xeno 20:51, 29 July 2010 (UTC)"> ">

LOL = 300 baud - remember? And I had to manage up to ten simultaneous private chats on the old CompuServe CB software! This is now my 28th year or so online. Collect (talk) 21:35, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

My first modem was a 2400 baud. I used to run a Renegade BBS (tricked out with the full screen logon and all the bells and whistles). =) Those were the days... –xeno 21:36, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Speed demon! My dad was used to the old Friden FlexoWriter at 110 baud. I did have the very first "laptop" - a TRS-80 Model 100. I also wrote in TinyBasic (one neat one was a "Star Trek" game in under 4K total memory). Collect (talk) 21:40, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Heh. I remember when I got the US Robotics 14.4k... I felt like the king of the world. –xeno 21:40, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Ah - but did you have a "flippy" drive for your computer? (Where you had to cut the extra notch?) Collect (talk) 21:46, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Eh??? Probably not. I did have a true "floppy" (5.25) ... Kings Quest IV - they don't make 'em like they used to. –xeno 22:08, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Seeking suggestions for new title for WP:AMORAL

You have previously commented regarding the essay WP:Misplaced Pages is amoral; I am soliciting suggestions for a better title for the essay. If you have any, please list them at Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_is_amoral#Suggestions_for_new_title.3F. Thanks, --Cybercobra (talk) 06:59, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Please review

Hi, you cast a vote of oppose on a proposed content guideline; I and a few other editors have made significant changes to the proposed guideline to try and resolve the issues of the opposers. I initially opposed the guideline but now support it due to the changes made recently. Would you mind reviewing the changes and commenting on this section. Wikipedia_talk:Identifying_reliable_sources_(science-related_articles)#Towards_consensus_acceptance_of_the_guideline.2C_lets_discuss Thank you very much.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 21:03, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Skull and Bones comment

Hi, just wanted to thank you for that comment on the talk page at the S&B piece. That piece gets an awful lot of vandalism, and one grows weary of reverting it, especially with the inevitable backlash. I appreciate your comment. Thanks. MarmadukePercy (talk) 19:25, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Note on MFD discussion

Hi,

I hope my tone reads appropriately regards the MFD debate, and I appreciate your comment - I always find it a relief when people disagree with me. Obviously it is a judgement call (hence UCS) with heavy reliance on souces - unusual for a MFD discussion. I think I'm right and it's a very cut-and-dried issue, but then again I'm not the boss of wikipedia so we'll see what the consensus is. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 15:40, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

The aim is to, if possible, make the relative weight of the arguments pro and con easily assessed - the worst XfD discussions are where folks simply line up in a queue without actually giving much for the closer to work with <g>. Thanks! Collect (talk) 18:32, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, I've either conveyed an air-tight, compelling case, or I've hopelessly muddied the waters. Those poor closing admins, they'll get blamed no matter what. I just hope they use common sense and agree with me :) WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 20:07, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Never underestimate the ability of another person to completely misunderstand everything entirely <g>. Collect (talk) 10:52, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Please could I make use of your skills?

I wonder if you might be inclined to create a graph or other chart in respect of my "suggested exercise" here. I want to evidence, further, that at least the perception of factionalisation is convincing. I suggest that the 10 cases, the 8 edit wars noted at the PD plus the Bishop Hill (blog) and Fred Singer articles, would suffice. I would wish that no names were exampled in any graph, just X% editors edited Y% of articles to the same effect (top end), the same for the medium percentages, and the lowest meaningful percentages, plus any examples of an account edit to differing effects. I suggest using WMC and Marknutley as the data points of the perceived idealogical split, so that any editor aping their actions being placed within that grouping (for the sake of neutrality, please do not include WMC and Mn in the data), and capable of being checked as acting against the other editor. If you are willing to do this I will want to announce it on the PD talkpage. I should be grateful if you would let me know soonest if you can. Thanks. LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:38, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

If you will do this, are you able to do a top, medium and least ratio's for both "sides" - hopefully without indicating whose is whose - so it can be shown that such practices were not endemic to any one viewpoint? Cheers. LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The very selction of your prefered article to do the examination on negates any objectivity of the exercise right from the start. you appear to be asking Collect to do an analysis on an article you have made controversial admin decisions on in order that it might back up your arguments. Whilst Collect may come up with some stats that back this up I would treat them with a very healthy pinch of salt. Polargeo (talk) 15:40, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, it will only be a tool open to examination. However, until Collect agrees they will or will not do this I would be grateful if my request here is not used in the ongoing debate. If Collect is unable to do this, for any reason, then you are at liberty to point out my actions here for whatever purpose you feel appropriate (and if they are willing, then all aspects of this request are open to comment, of course). LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

But collect would be likely to simply do a wikistalk that any of us can do and you know this then maybe even add some statistical obscurity to the answer. What is the point? You think you have been wronged and you are trying to pin this on factionalism by your own selection of the article. The fact that this article was noted on the CC enforcement pages pretty much guarantees that all interested editors would turn up, the fact that someone then started an RfC goes even further. If you then want to use this stick to beat editors with that is simply poor. Polargeo (talk) 15:51, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I think Collect is more able than just present bare facts from a wikistalk, which is why I asked with the specific criteria. As for Bishop Hill (blog), if you can suggest an alternative CC related article where there was a recent (2010) edit war then please do so - it is just so much easier to review percentages from 10 and multiples datapoints. If no alternative, then I am willing to drop that article if Collect can do an analysis over 9 cases. I would note that the article was not brought up on the enforcement page, until by me when I sanctioned some of the editors and noted my request for review at AN (thus the edit war had already happened). Anyhoo, this is moot until Collect responds. LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:09, 25 August 2010 (UTC) Oh, and the purpose is to provide the evidence that there is or was "factionalisation" within CC related space, or at the very least the appearence of same, that some commentators at the PD takpage say is lacking. LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:13, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I just think that the whole issue of stats is worthless. We are not looking at random articles anymore but articles that have been the focus of CC enforcement. All any analysis will prove is that those editors who watch CC enforcement will turn up at similar articles. This is hardly surprising and is proof of nothing. Polargeo (talk) 16:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

All these are articles where there has been edit warring, and my intent is to indicate there were two large groups of editors whose actions in supporting each other and deprecating other editors were a major factor in these issues. Turning up en masse and resolving issues is good, turning up en masse and sustaining an edit war is not. LessHeard vanU (talk) 17:01, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Suppose I simply look at a sample of n editwarred articles of my choosing (random from the set where more than 3 edit wars have occurred in less than, say, 6 months? and see if similar patterns occurred in any subset thereof? A bit of a project in any case. And Polar - you should trust me to make reasonable choices - you have a knack for trying to upset applecarts <g>. Unless, of course, you are stating that editors with similar CC interests specifically choose to act in concert? I think that would be substantially "against interest" for you. Collect (talk) 18:07, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I think there needs to be a test on CC edit wars, and then a random set of edit wars to compare it against - but you are the expert here. Would there be a major time factor? LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I am almost done medical treatments for a minor cancer - which rather sap energy. Last group of WP work was about 100 hours - but I imagine I can get something done this week - sound ok? Collect (talk) 23:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

If you are knocking shit out of some cancer, you take as much time as you like (I have two younger cousins both in remission, and a third who has just had an elective hysterectomy). This is only a fucking website. LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:13, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

BLP and companies

Hi, I just happened to notice your latest edit on Koch Industries, taking out a link to a Frank Rich piece and justifying the removal as violating BLP. The link may not need to be there for other reasons, but BLP doesn't apply here because it expressly does not apply to companies. Quoting: The policy does not normally apply to edits about corporations, companies, or other entities regarded as legal persons, though any such material must comply with the other content policies. I thought you should know. — e. ripley\ 01:43, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

The Rich ecditorial was about the Koch brpthers and thus is under BLP. WP:BLP applies to all articles referring to living people, and sources making claims about living people. Did you read the Rich screed? Collect (talk) 10:03, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

No I didn't. I'm not following the articles at all, I just happened upon your edit summary and thought I'd point out that section of the policy to you. I'm glad you were already aware of it. — e. ripley\ 12:27, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

BLP certainly applies to the articles about David and Charles Koch, and to references to those individuals as individuals in the company article, but not to the company per se. Your objection to Frank Rich, a highly respected journalist who has probably one of the world's most prime pieces of journalistic real estate in the world as op-ed columnist for the Sunday NY Times, is quite curious indeed. While some of the rhetorical language he uses may sometimes not be appropriate for an article, that he is a reliable source is nearly incontestable. Finally, please note that you are at 2RR for the David Koch article. Best, Arjuna (talk) 12:07, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

The "flourishes" make up the bulk of his screed. and he has been found non-RS for such in the past. His article, as you phrase it, entirely aims at the Koch's as people. Collect (talk) 18:38, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

WRT "2RR" - where WP:BLP is clearly involved, reverts are not counted - the policy requires removal of such material. Collect (talk) 18:48, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Collect, you might want to post diffs or links to those previous discussions. You don't seem to be garnering a whole lot of sympathy here--probably time to regroup and reconsider the approach to the topic. Jclemens (talk) 19:48, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually BLP/N got response - and one who decidedly agrees with me from that area. Thanks! Collect (talk) 20:54, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

You assert that you are enforcing BLP, but that is not yet clear if this is in fact the case or whether you are being tendentious. If the material is not in contradiction to BLP - and I have asked Admins to weigh in on the BLP page - please be aware that you could be in violation if you hit 3RR. You assert that Rich has been found non-RS in the past - can you please provide examples or a statement of policy on this? It can be argued that Rich refers to the Kochs as individuals, but you reverted whole sections of material with multiple citations, so this doesn't seem a reasonable way to go about fixing a possible BLP violation - if so you should have removed just the Rich citation. Finally, since you refer to the Rich op-ed as a "screed", this suggests to me that you may find the material objectionable from an ideological POV, in which case I urge you to exercise some caution. Best, Arjuna (talk) 19:54, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

I also refer to Dr. Laura's stuff as "screed" I am an equal-opportunity opponent of using editorial comments in BLPs. Note also that I posted on BLP/N a while back - as soon as it appeared this was a problem. Did you miss my post? Thanks! Collect (talk) 20:54, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Linda McMahon

If you want to discuss the page, then join the discussion. I don't need someone to revert me and then contact me on my talk page to tell me that they reverted me.--Screwball23 talk 16:31, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

ANI enforcement request notice

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

Note: this involves Screwball23 and the ruckus over at Linda McMahon. Fell Gleaming 16:58, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Happy Collect's Day!

User:Collect has been identified as an Awesome Wikipedian, and therefore, I've officially declared today as Collect's day! For being such a beautiful person and great Wikipedian, enjoy being the Star of the day, dear Collect! Peace, Rlevse 00:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC) A record of your Day will always be kept here.

For a userbox you can add to your userbox page, see User:Rlevse/Today/Happy Me Day! and my own userpage for a sample of how to use it. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

And sincere best regards and thanks to you! Collect (talk) 00:09, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Your AE Filing

You need to use this form to submit a new issue. I closed the old one but you are free to copy and paste from it to start a new one. --WGFinley (talk) 17:10, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I tried - kept getting nowhere. Thanks - please try to restart it, as I do not have the patience to get the template to work. The instructions state that as long as the information is there, that it was valid. Collect (talk) 17:12, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

You didn't provide all the information such as that he was notified, what remedy you were looking for etc. Using the template is a rather easy cut and paste affair, if you don't use it it's impossible for admins to review your request. As the instructions state "Your request may be declined without further action if you provide insufficient or unclear information." Which is what I did. So please, either use the template (easy) or submit all the information that is in the template so that your request can be evaluated. And please don't add on to something that's been closed again. --WGFinley (talk) 17:22, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

The notification was on his page (multiple times) as well as on the article page itself - which is noted in the filing. The Digwuren sanctions are what I am seeking - as it states. The Diffs are provided. What more can I do? I spent a good half an hour trying to make the template work and failed. Sorry about that - but ignoring the problem as a result is a tad silly, no? Collect (talk) 17:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I will create a new entry for you so that it's there you will need to fill it out. --WGFinley (talk) 17:29, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Please include as much from my initial filing as possible - I do not want TFD to find a comma missing <g>. Collect (talk) 17:30, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Actually started a new one for you, you can cut and paste from your original to that one. --WGFinley (talk) 17:33, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I have filed the request, it is very much like the CC probation one mark nutley (talk) 17:33, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Now co-signed, and diffs given as requested. Collect (talk) 17:41, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

white out

Hi Collect, tiresome indeed. I had a white out (major comp failure) up and running again now. I see the issue and actually it is annoying but there is only policy and guidelines that will be effective in creating a balanced article. Against strongly opinionated contributors with a single purpose those guidelines and policies are weak and ineffectual, drawing the attention of uninvolved NPOV editors is helpful. Off2riorob (talk) 10:45, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I had Windows XP a while back and sympathize <g>. Seems that the ones who make fifty edits in a row on any article are an order of magnitude more likely to engage in such behavior <g>. It does boost their "edit count" though. Collect (talk) 10:51, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Crist

ec.I don't know if you are still following the BLPN discussion but I have (boldly) added a concise version of the content, here . I felt less would be close to censorship and felt a simple neutral uninvolved comment was the way to go, if you have any objections feel free to remove it and discuss, thanks. Off2riorob (talk) 10:53, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Pretty much in line with my proposal earlier. (heck - the original edit I made was just to replace "homosexuality" with "sexual orientation" ! which got reverted) Thanks. Collect (talk) 10:56, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Boldness

I'd like to believe I'm as bold as the next guy, but even I'd think twice before making 18k of changes to a mature topic. Bold is good, cautious may be even better. Conservative best?   Will Beback  talk  11:13, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

There was a lot of duplicated material in Crist - and an article is not really "mature" when much is less than three months old to be sure. And a lot was actual simple copyediting as well. Thanks. (Um -- in another aticle, one person deleted 55% of the article (60k+) in one swoop which I did feel was a bit much). Collect (talk) 14:35, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

The article was started in 2004, though I'm sure it's had major changes since then. I'm not complaining about anything you did - just surprised to see such a sweeping revision in a single edit.   Will Beback  talk  20:26, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

No problem - some stuff was iterated several times. Last straw was folks confusing "Independent" with "unaffiliated" for ballot lines <g>. Collect (talk) 21:20, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Carl Paladino

This was sourced. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 01:34, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

The claims were not founded in the cite. WP:BLP is not a joke -

OK, I'll accept that, as I didn't check the source, but there are reliable sources out there which make the same claims. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 01:41, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

See this version of the article, which got deleted despite being reliably sourced. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 01:42, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Look back to my edit where I stated "improper emails" which is all the reliable sources actually claim. I am also quite unsure that bringing a child into the BLP is proper under ] but I don;t recall who added it. Collect (talk) 01:43, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand what you're saying, that the sources are not reliable, or that they don't spell out what the emails were? Everard Proudfoot (talk) 01:46, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Read WP:RS and WP:BLP paying close attention to "contentious or poorly sourced material." Collect (talk) 01:47, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

I know what RS and BLP say. What I am saying, and which you seem to be dancing around, is that the material is not poorly sourced. Why do you keep contending that it is? Everard Proudfoot (talk) 01:50, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

I am not the only one pointing out that"sex with a horse" is a "contentious claim" at best. Beyond contentious. The source is grossly insufficient for the claim. WP:BLP requires removal of such stuff. Collect (talk) 01:51, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Are you trying to claim that CBS News is not a reliable source? Everard Proudfoot (talk) 01:54, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

CBS uses "reportedly" which is not a strong enough commitment that CBS backs the claim at all. In fact, it is used to cover "rumor" which is also not permitted in BLPs. Sorry - this is something which has now been discussed more than enough. Please cease posting on this page. Collect (talk) 01:58, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

The BLP Barnstar

		The BLP Barnstar
		For persistent and devoted efforts to cleanup, balance, and remove policy violations from the Linda McMahon article Fell Gleaming 10:49, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

EL list

You made a reference to "EL list" here. Can you tell me what it is?--SPhilbrickT 16:56, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

"EL" is short for "External links" - see WP:EL Collect (talk) 02:57, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Screwball23 at ANI noticeboard

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

Cleaning up the advocacy section on the David Koch page

Collect, I have some suggestions on the Advocacy section of the page that I have made on the talk page. I have gotten some pushback that has been rhetorical, but not really on substance. Basically, I want to fill out the information about Koch's involvement in boards. I feel like the current information is elided in a way that creates WP:BLP and WP:NPOV issues. Would love your thoughts. MBMadmirer (talk) 13:40, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

There are sme substantial BLP issues on all the Koch pages if you read Jimbo Wales' comments on his user talk page (see "silly season" sections from a week or so back). Collect (talk) 18:26, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree completely. Do you think that my changes could be ok? If I put the final formating on a page in my userspace, would you be willing to look at it and consider moving it over? I think this should be fine, but I want to be respectful of Arjuna's issues. Thanks MBMadmirer (talk) 10:15, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Post suggestions on the Koch talk page I think Arjuna will actually be careful with any BLP issues raised, as is appropriate. And note that if anyone directly associated with Koch files a WP:OTRS report, that functionaries with "powers beyong those of mortal men" will edit the article. Collect (talk) 10:19, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I just posted my suggestion there with a lot more detail. Would really appreciate your thoughts. The actual text, with full references, that I am recommending is here: User:MBMadmirer/David H. Koch. MBMadmirer (talk) 15:19, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Collect, I have made another proposed edit here: Talk:David_H._Koch#Updating_the_advocacy_section. No one has responded to the proposal. I think that you might have WP:BLP sympathies to both, but I don't feel comfortable moving forward without discussion. Thanks! MBMadmirer (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:49, 5 October 2010 (UTC).

RFC on vandalism sandboxes

As someone who previously participated in the discussion to adopt policy verbiage that is being used as a rationale to delete "vandalism sandboxes", your input would be appreciated on the matter: Misplaced Pages talk:User pages#Userspace Vandalism Sandboxes. Gigs (talk) 15:09, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

AN/I statement

Actually, MuZemike seems to indicate the opposite of what you infer: " As far as WP:CLEANSTART is concerned, I felt that it was OK for him to edit with the BErD account. Now if the community (or another CheckUser) feels that he is trying to avoid scrutiny, I certainly understand that, and that is a valid point." (emphasis mine). The terms of cleanstart also support such, as even MuZemike pointed out.

That aside, in attempting to assume good faith (yet again), I've proposed remedies that consist largely of doing nothing unless blatant repeat behavior occurs (or unless this is a rogue admin). Perhaps you may wish to review them and provide counter suggestions or provide your support. I feel it may be a proposal you would support. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI /_CNTRB 19:20, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Absent a finding from MuZemike that anything is amiss, I suggest that remedies based on fishing results are not a great idea. Collect (talk) 20:40, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Then I suspect you didnt read my proposed remedies (as I know BErD is acting like he didnt) :-). I proposed to do nothing over all' previous actions (other account or this one), complimented them twice in my proposal, and ensured that an allowance for honest mistakes was included in it. Contrary to BErD's claims, I've tried assuming good faith and look out for them (based on their proven ability to contribute non disruptively and without trolling - when they want to). I think I've done so again in my proposal. As I said, I think it's a proposal you may support. :-) ROBERTMFROMLI /_CNTRB 20:52, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

But you asked for the fishing expedition to be made - which is where I demur. Collect (talk) 22:16, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Ah, perhaps you are misunderstanding what I have proposed? I am proposing the AN/I be ended the way I have suggested, as stated above, having nothing to do with previous actions, even though cleanstart (and the current consensus at AN/I) clearly support such. I'm asking for an end to the AN/I with my proposal, and not more scrutiny (even if deserved). Hope that clarifies. ROBERTMFROMLI /_CNTRB 22:32, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh! Perhaps you are nor realizing I have made a new proposal? This is not my initial proposal. This is a new one intended to hopefully end the AN/I without the permanent or indef block others are requesting. Sorry I wasnt more clear in my initial message. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI /_CNTRB 22:37, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Will check it out. Thanks. Collect (talk) 22:41, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Your Screwball23 ANI post

I've added a comment. I don't know whether it's strictly required, but I'm informing you of it since the thread had previously been marked as "resolved" by another user. BTW, please remember to inform users when you comment about them there. I don't know whether Screwball32 might have seen your post if you'd done so, and thus have had time to respond before he was blocked, but it's possible.  – OhioStandard (talk) 09:25, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

I had, fort some odd reason, assumed Screwball23 knew about the ongoing concerns since the prior section was so recent. On another board I was criticized for not tacking on to an earlier report <g>. Seems I can't win. Collect (talk) 10:08, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Hey, Collect! I know you're following my edits, but I thought I'd save you the trouble of looking. I've just posted here, and I expect you'll want to have your say. I think I won't post a rejoinder, unless you're unusually agressive in misrepresenting my motives or statements, so if you're relatively moderate there, you'll be welcome to have the last word. Best regards,  – OhioStandard (talk) 05:01, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually I do not follow anyone's edits at all. Collect (talk) 13:25, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

October 2010

Template:Z9

{{ is the evidence of "edit war." I demur that the single edit constitutes sufficient evidence of edit war, and ask to be unblocked. I shall avoid the Paladino article, and let it be edited in whatever way others choose. I shall also avoid McMahon, though I would like someone to make sure that the articles do not violate WP:BLP which has always been my primary concern. Collect (talk) 21:17, 3 October 2010 (UTC)|I have now been informed that this edit is the evidence of "edit war." I demur that the single edit constitutes sufficient evidence of edit war, and ask to be unblocked. I shall avoid the Paladino article, and let it be edited in whatever way others choose. I shall also avoid McMahon, though I would like someone to make sure that the articles do not violate WP:BLP which has always been my primary concern. Collect (talk) 21:17, 3 October 2010 (UTC)]]}}

Your request to be unblocked has been granted for the following reason(s): OK. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 23:44, 3 October 2010 (UTC) Request handled by: King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ Unblocking administrator: Please check for active autoblocks on this user after accepting the unblock request.

(UTC+1) |3=HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:01, 3 October 2010 (UTC)}}

Unfortunately, King hasn't specified where the alleged edit warring took place in the block log or here, which makes it difficult to evaluate the merit of the block. Thus, I've put your request on hold pending comment from him. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:01, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

There is a fine line between vandalism, BLP violation, and a factual dispute; your edits so far have not shown that you understand this. However, if you agree to limit yourself to one revert per week (excepting only self-reverts and vandalism that can be detected by a bot) on Linda McMahon and Carl Paladino, I will unblock you. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 23:37, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Done (excepting clear vandalism) until after political "silly season" has ended. I wish you had noted my repeated use of BLP/N for all the questions, as well as my use of article talk pages for all the matetrial involved. Collect (talk) 23:39, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

diffs please

Will anyone looking at my recent edits please tell me where I "edit warred" at all? I fear this is a "punishment" made because one editor kept saying I edit warred without having the courtesy to notify me nor to provide diffs of the accusation anywhere on WP. Thanks! Collect (talk) 12:55, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Seems like its related to this discussion at Administrator King of Hearts talkpage. http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:King_of_Hearts#Good_call.2C_but_incomplete and to edits made over five days ago on the Linda McMahon articles. Personally I don't think this is a correct block if it is about that issue, if King of Hearts after looking in depth at the issue there though he was wrong to only block one side then after five days a note to inform the user of such a realization is imo the correct decision to take and not a dated editing restriction.Off2riorob (talk) 13:08, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I never hit 3RR on any page, never got any warnings, never was told why this block occurred, and my edits sure were not in any sense "edit war." And without telling me what is going on, or any indication that any diffs were provided, his block goes against WP policies and procedures. And if he was wroing to block Screwball23, then it is wrong to block me at this point - it looks like "punishment" which is a grossly improper reason for any block. Thanks! Collect (talk) 13:41, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Collect, the block notice says it's for disruption, not 3rr as such. One can be blocked for disruption following, say, a slow and tendentious edit war without even reaching 2r/day. This said, the block log itself says it's for edit warring. I think you might want to think about taking down your unblock template straight away, then asking the blocking admin for more input on why the block was made (article(s), contribs and so on) and then, if you want to appeal the block, put up a new UBT which deals with whatever you were blocked for. You can't get this block lifted until you know what it's about. I think this needs more input from the blocking admin. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:01, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

No diffs were given. No warning was given. I ask that you examine the actual edits I made - and note than I never got past 2RR, and my total edits on Linda McMahon in the past two weeks are 20:11 2 Oct where I removed unsourced "In 2010 there have ben rumors that wwe will end the PG rating and go back to the TV-14 rating." Proper edit. 15:04 1 Oct where I used the figure given in the source. Proper edit. My total edits ever on that article are 20. No tendentiousness there at all.

May not be that article, don't know. I'd already sent the blocking admin an email, asking for more input here, since you don't seem to understand why the block was made (and hence, can't meaningfully appeal it). Gwen Gale (talk) 14:24, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Now if you go all the way back to 16 September (over two weeks ago) : 16 Sept where I unwikilinked duplicate wikilinks. I did hit 2RR on 16 September. Stale when you have to go back more than 2 weeks to even find a 2RR, I suggest. And going back further, not even a 2RR for one to use. And those reverts were founded on WP:BLP in the first place. How can you call that a "slow and tenentious edit war"? Really? Collect (talk) 14:13, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I did ask on the Administrators talkpage for a bit more in depth explanation as to his reasons for the block. Off2riorob (talk) 14:20, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I made so few edits that giving me an "edit war" label without solid material to back the claim seems odd at best. Collect (talk) 14:32, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

First of all, you have a history of edit warring, so any reverts you perform will be viewed with additional scrutiny. Moreover, a "warning" IMO is anything that makes you realize there is a chance you could be blocked if you continue with your actions; OhioStandard's posts on both of our talk pages constitutes a warning, so it's not like you didn't know this could happen. On Carl Paladino, you first reinserted the "allegedly" on September 20, and proceed to do so again on September 30; more recently, you removed the "undue" incident once on October 1, and again on October 2. On Linda McMahon, you have a long history of editing and edit warring on the page, and probably would have been blocked if Malinaccier hadn't protected the page on September 17; your October 1 and October 2 edits are inadvisable due to your history on that page, but I'm not really concerned with those since the things you reverted are borderline vandalism. Therefore the main motivation for the current block was your final edit to Carl Paladino. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 19:01, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure I buy two reverts in two days as disruptive edit warring. Moreover, the combination of low speed and non-explicit warnings are concerning. Certainly, the articles in question attract people writing for differing political agendas, but I'm not aware of any specific sanctions/enforcement which apply to these articles at the moment. Jclemens (talk) 19:37, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Sir - my "history of edit warring" was basically two years ago. 20 total edits on a page ] which another editor has over 800 edits does not seem to me to show anything near an edit war. So I am surprised to see your rationale is the Carl Paladino page! is a legitimate edit, and not actionable at all. is also proper, and a day earlier. I have a grand total of 28 edits on that page, or an average or just over an edit a day also removing clear vandalism as well). But you blocked me without any indication of my crime, and were absent for quite a while - leaving me in limbo. Frankly, 72 hours for a person who has no recent edit war problems seems extreme. And for this use of block as punishment - I have doubts as to propriety thereof. Did you block because Ohiostandard kept asserting that I was edit warring? AFAICT, he never even posted a single diff for his charge. Thank you - now can I be unblocked so I can resume normal editing? My radiation treatment limits my activities quite a bit. Oh - look at this sort of "editor" I have had to face at , and a favorite example to show the kind of edits I reverted on the article. Collect (talk) 20:19, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

This looks like a bad block, and even worse when I read the explaination from the admin. Is there any "history/involvement" per say with the blocking admin? --Threeafterthree (talk) 20:25, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

WRT asserting that Ohiostandard 'warned me" - he never edited on the Paladino article, nor mentioned it to me. Right now the block is clearly punitive, and I respectfully request it be removed with a note that it was not "edit war" on my part. I do not see the point in having a clear record for nearly two years - and then being blocked for a 1RR because someone "thinks" I must be watched! The only connection I have with Ohiostandard is that he did not like my post about Screwball23. Collect (talk) 20:29, 3 October 2010 (UTC) Examples of current edits from others : . And of course the current content of " Content of the emails in question includes video of dancing African tribesmen under the title "Obama Inauguration Rehearsal", a video titled "Miss France 2008 Fucking", an altered image of President Obama and First Lady Michelle Obama dressed as a pimp and a prostitute, an image of a cargo plane landing in an African desert behind a group of panicked men titled "Run, Niggers, Run!" and a video portraying a woman engaged in copulation with a horse. For some odd reason, I had thought this was actually improper on WP. I take it that I was wrong if reverting such edits is "edit war." Collect (talk) 20:40, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

precipitating edit

is where the "warning" exists, I assume? First of all, I do not have any "preferred candidates" at all. I edit on Dems, Reps, Independents with exactly the same concerns as for any BLP. Anyone is free to accuse me of backing Alex Sink or anyone else where WP:TABLOID exists and I remove scurrilous or lewd accusations. Thanks. Note nicely that Paladino is not mentioned in this "warning". Collect (talk) 20:54, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Speeding tickets

John Doakes of Hallandale FL was issued a speeding ticket for going 60mph in a 70mph zone. When he asked the policeman, he was tol;d it ewas because he had gotten two speeding tickets last year, and this was "preventative." (Aesop) Collect (talk) 21:01, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Collect, if I was you I would delete your previous unblock request now that you have been informed in detail of the reasons for the blocking and I would take what the Administrator has said on board and make a decent unblock request addressing his issues. Off2riorob (talk) 21:08, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

His issue is that it is "preventative" to block a person for a relative handful of edits over a month, and where 2RR has not been exceeded, on the basis that he needs to give me a speeding ticket when I was not speeding. And not having the courtesy to respond to me for most of a day. The sole edit he cites, moreover, is proper under WP:BLP. I assert that it is not a valid use of blocks to issue such a ticket. He also asserted that Ohiostandard "warned" me - but OS has never even appeared on the Paladino page, meaning the admin, sua sponte, looked for a reason to block. Unfortunately, he found one which is not a reason to block. I don;t know what issues are there except that "edit war" was not present. Collect (talk) 21:23, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

As HJ left an on hold note on your unblock request, I have left him a note to request if he can re-review the situation. Off2riorob (talk) 21:26, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

• OK, I'm willing to unblock you if you agree to avoid the article for a few days and to make a point of seeking discussion on talk pages at the earliest possible stage in any future dispute. This shouldn't be taken as an endorsement or a rejection of the original block. Sound reasonable? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:45, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Scratch that. I see King has unblocked you. I've cleared your autoblock so all should be fine. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:47, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
    • • As I repeatedly used noticeboards, I have no idea why this blew up. shows clearly that I sought other opinions on the Paladino article. But this got elided in the rush to assert "edit war." shows me using the proper noticeboard on McMahon. So much for the charge of "edit war." BTW, OS, you are now disinvited to post on this page. I trust this is clear. Collect (talk) 00:12, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Carl Paladino

Collect,

Please review more carefully. There were various problems with the previous revisions of the controvery section which have been corrected. Those changes include: better sourcing, on-going/long-term discussion (not news), and no more links to youtube. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.125.59.112 (talk) 21:46, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Again - your venue is the article talk page. I simply declined an edit under "pending revisions" as something which would need discussion there. Collect (talk) 23:11, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Question about (lack of ) list of RS

I have a question about Reliable Sources. It may be that I should ask this at Misplaced Pages talk:Reliable sources/Noticeboard, but I wanted to run it by you first (I don't know that we've interacted, but I've seen your work, and I know you hang out at the RSN a fair bit.) I'm surprised that we don't have a table summarizing the community view on specific reliable sources. It looks like the current process is as follows: An editor wonders about the propriety of a specific source. The editor should come to RSN, enter the source in the search book to see what is in the archives, read all the archives carefully to determine the answer, and if the answer isn't clearcut, post a new question, and see what people think. This seems like an enormously inefficient process. I am aware of the blacklist and whitelist, but, unless I'm missing something, those aren't intended to be the definitive answers on whether a source is reliable. This seems like such an obvious need, I'm wondering if I'm missing something fundamental (for example, maybe it does exist, and I just don’t know where to look.) Having given the issue the briefest of thoughts, I'm quite aware that the answer isn't always as simple as "yes" or "no". Sometimes the answer is, "it depends". But I'm also confident one can handle that in a table.--SPhilbrickT 12:53, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Basically you need to keep looking up past discussions. A bit of a pain, but some folks think a source is relaible if it agrees with what they WP:KNOW, and unreliable if it disagrees with what they "know". Which means the same people argue on both sides for the same source at times. And there are also ArbCom "principles" and "findings" which apply to many (such as, for example, self-published sources, where ArbCom is actually more restrictive than current WP practice has been). Collect (talk) 13:09, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. SPhilbrickT 13:52, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Warning

The Arbitration Committee has permitted administrators to impose, at their own discretion, sanctions on any editor working on pages broadly related to Eastern Europe if the editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. If you continue with the behavior on Mass killings under Communist regimes, you may be placed under sanctions including blocks, a revert limitation or an article ban. The committee's full decision can be read at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Final decision. When you note that an edit war is in progress, please do not join in even if you are in the right. The slow slog of consensus is the only way that article will ever become a high quality stable encyclopedia article. Several of your comments at Talk:Mass killings under Communist regimes verge on personal attacks, or at the very least assume bad faith on the part of your fellow volunteers; please try to focus discussion on improvements to the article. The article is locked from editing for the next month; please discuss proposed changes on the talkpage in the meantime. As always, template:editprotected and requests for unprotection may be used when a firm consensus is reached. Thank you, - 2/0 (cont.) 23:37, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Interesting as the only objectionable posts I saw there were by others. Thanks and Cheers. Collect (talk) 23:39, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

If this warning is not removed I intend to complain at ANI. TFD (talk) 02:11, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Ghostofnemo (2nd nomination)

Because you participated in Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Ghostofnemo, you may be interested in Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Ghostofnemo (2nd nomination). Cunard (talk) 22:27, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Eyeballs please

You commented on topic bans here. The wording's apparently close to consensus. It's now been updated as v3 and could do with a final check. Thanks - FT2  17:07, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

ANI

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.--Novus Orator 06:24, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

AE

I saw you comment at AE. While I agree with your comment, it might be a good idea to stay away of this . Biophys (talk) 20:13, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

MfD

Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject North Korea (2nd nomination) Hello, this is to invite you to a previously held discussion on MfD that had been closed but was recently revealed to be a vote fraud following the discovery of a big sockfarm operated by that particular individual. Appreciate if you could voice your opinion on this matter there. Best. --Dave 13:15, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Rick Scott

Do you really think that the following text, which you restored, belongs in the article?

An edit has occurred here. It removed an off topic reference to the fact an attack ad was placed in his home town and the DC area against Rick Scott. Saying that someone paid to have a negative ad broadcast against Rick Scott serves only as a distraction and does not improve the readers understanding of facts.

I must admit, it seems to me highly inappropriate, but perhaps you know best. Deor (talk) 21:04, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I did not note that such was in the body of the text - what I thunk I removed was the cite for the negative ad. Please remove that quote, which I did not realize was present. Thanks! Collect (talk) 22:49, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Pro forma

Sorry for being so curious. I took it here because it really is off-topic over at WP:SPI. I've had 4.5 years of Latin, but much of it only pro forma ;-). I think "pro forma" means "for the sake of appearance", or, as our article writes, "as a pure formality, perfunctory, or seek to satisfy the minimum requirements". I assumed you intended to say something more like "in an official capacity", or maybe "as a matter of principle". Why would you want the CUs to run a sensitive tool "as a mere formality"? Or are there nuances of meaning I miss? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:24, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Try the implication for "as a matter of form" in the sense of "as a matter of routine," sometimes with the sense of "perfunctory" which is not actually the original meaning. It is misused a lot for "pro forma accounting" which generally means "made-up figures" :). Nice to see "How long, O Cataline" to be sure. My Greek memory does not do much beyond "Phobes tous Hellenicous" though (transliterated as I do not like using that many special characters on my keyboard). Collect (talk) 16:32, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I have not encountered that reading before. Since I know so little Latin (probably as much from Asterix as from schooling), I always take delight if I recognize or can use a phrase. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:41, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Asterix is not a valid Latin text :) You might wish to read Stephen Leacock's essay on translating Latin ... Collect (talk) 17:05, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Actually, in Germany they sell proper Latin language editions of Asterix for use as texts in Latin class. Of course we used boring Caesar and Agricola, but I got Asterix Legionarius just for the fun of it. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:10, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Why not just get Winne Ille Pu? Collect (talk) 22:18, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Talkback

• Guess what. HW is still being a douche. I politely ask him to comment on something at You Ain't Goin' Nowhere and he bulldozed my edit with an edit summary that basically amounted to "I ALREADY TOLD YOU, READ THE EDIT SUMMARY". Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • 13:32, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Seems a civility reminder is due for him! But I really think the issue of "stalking" is not key here. Collect (talk) 14:19, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Hullaballoo Wolfowitz. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • 18:42, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Reminder

You may want to voice your opinion on the discussion of whether to merge the Communist Terrorism article into the Left-wing terrorism article. Mamalujo (talk) 20:57, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

to disinvited guest

Try reading what I write -- and do not template me. Nor did any "personal attack" occur, so please now consider yourself fully disinvited from posting on this page. Collect (talk) 14:00, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

question

Your manoeuvers in the US midterm election make me deeply uneasy. I hate to see people using wikipedia in the way you have just done. It makes me extremely sick. Polargeo (talk) 11:39, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh? I simply stick to WP:BLP - whether for Republicans, Democrats or Independents, or even any other group (including magicians etc.) I am not "using" anything as a "manouever" whatsoever. Thanks. Collect (talk) 11:51, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I do not see it that way. Not at all. Do you want me to devote my time to this or simply aknowledge you will be more accomodating in the future. Polargeo (talk) 11:55, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I can not say that my practice of defending the WP:BLP policy will diminish. I would note that where others have examined any controversy, they tend to strongly agree with me - you likely should look at Ratel's history on David Copperfield (illusionist)for one example. Or the history on Alex Sink. Collect (talk) 15:05, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Communist terrorism

Please note that this article comes under the Digwuren rule and any edit-warring may result in sanctions. TFD (talk) 14:33, 9 November 2010 (UTC)