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Revision as of 18:31, 26 February 2006

NPOV tag

I fear the language and perspective of this article ("strike breaker thug", "man killer", "bounty hunter") is extremely far from NPOV. Until the general tone is rephrased and/or rewritten, we cannot truly accept this article as an example of neutrality, even if the facts described are completely true. Regards, Phædriel ♥ 23:49, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Phædriel When you get a chance -- and I realize how busy you are! - I would humbly request you take a look at the article now, and see if it is improved. I have 1) tried to remove the rhetoric, and report just the facts; 2) source EVERYTHING; 3) not say anything which could remotely be libelous, and 4) be fair, and simply present the issues which exist. Thanks in advance for your kind help! old windy bear 01:27, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

The facts are true, but you are right, they should be reworded. let us make a stab at such now. My brother -- who taught history and was a real expert on the Bonnie and Clyde story -- carefully documented this article. nonetheless, I believe you ware right that he was way too biased in his wording. I have reworded it to reflect what is historically religiously correct, and this hopefully will meet the test of NPOV. All the words you mentioned have been removed, with a careful emphasis that the unions and labor viewed Hamer one way, management and big business another, and the facts are true. Labels have been removed. I wish my brother had written this, but he was ill, and the disputes over content drove him out. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.50.125.89 (talk • contribs) .

Mac, can you please sign your name by typing four tildes in a row? Like this: ~~~~. When you sign your name by typing ], it looks like you are signing as the username User:Mac, which is a different person. If you want to contribute significantly at Misplaced Pages, which I welcome, I would suggest you register for an account. It makes communication easier, and also gives you more privacy. Right now, when you edit, you're editing as an IP address (I fixed your address, above -- because when looking through the history files, that is the address from which you are contributing). Katefan0/mrp 05:45, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Gotcha. I used my brother's notes to clean this article up. And appreciate your welcome, but have to say I thought you were cruel to my brother, a disabled Vet, who had spent considerable time working on wikipedia projects for nothing but a hard time. But then, that is all Vietnam Vets ever got, was a hard time. In any event, I will sign my name as you suggest, as for an account, I signed for one, but I saw what you did to my brother, so I wanted to let you know I don't think you are in any, way, shape, or form, unbiased. Your cruelty to a crippled Vietnam Vet who was just trying to contribute -- wrong, and I won't join the legion of people praising you. Sorry! I just used his work to clean up this article. I think you drove my brother from this site because he had the courage -- which he showed in a war people your age have long forgotten -- to try to write the truth, and you crucified him for that. You deeply hurt him, and you were wrong. I remember growing up in Texas with him, but i won't be exchanging Texas notes. I am here to use his research to correct things -- like this article -- until you drive me off too with personal attacks. I will say you did a good thing in removing the personal cruel things on ;">Phædriel</'s page. People are so cruel, for no reason i can ascertain. Anyway, I used my brother's notes to try to be fair to the union people who felt Frank Hamer was a paid thug, and the need for professional NPOV, I believed the article now fair and unbiased. it was sure well researched. Mac1953

Listen, I completely disagree with how you and Oldwindybear are portraying what happened. I harbored him no ill will, respect his service to America, and while I was firm, I was never anything but polite. I can hardly be faulted for (apparently, mistakenly) believing that he asked people from an outside forum to come to Misplaced Pages because he felt he was being mistreated or that the article was not being handled right; he SAID as much himself. This is all I'm going to say about this, I'm not going to rehash the past anymore and would ask you not to either. If you feel he's been that wronged, open a Requests for comment on my editing here. If you don't want to do that, I would respectfully ask you to simply drop it in the interest of getting on with our main purpose here, which is building an encyclopedia. Also, typing ] is not the same thing as signing your name, because typing four tildes in a row not only inserts your name, it also inserts a timestamp which is important because it retains the timing in which comments were left. PLEASE, please, please, sign your name using four tildes in a row. Thanks. Katefan0/mrp 16:00, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

>mrp</ you were right, and i was wrong. I have corrected much of the language that you and ;">Phædriel< rightly found far too politically opinated. I am hoping you will feel the present language fairer. Really, a person's view of Hamer inhis business dealings depended solely on your side: if you believed the company had a right to operate with scab labor, hamer was a hero. If you believed in the union movement, he was feared and hated. I have tried to present both sides, and will further cite sources page by page next week. The man himself was complicated, as were the times. old windy bear 08:35, 16 January 2006 (UTC)oldwindybear

Totallydisputed

I also dispute this article as it is written's facual accuracy as well. Many, MANY assertions of fact in this article need specific citations, particularly ones that could be viewed as potentially libelous to Frank Hamer or his estate. Katefan0/mrp 16:15, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Katefan0<you were right, and i was wrong. I have corrected much of the language that you and ;">Phædriel< rightly found far too politically opinated. I am hoping you will feel the present language fairer. Really, a person's view of Hamer inhis business dealings depended solely on your side: if you believed the company had a right to operate with scab labor, hamer was a hero. If you believed in the union movement, he was feared and hated. I have tried to present both sides, and will further cite sources page by page next week. The man himself was complicated, as were the times. old windy bear 08:35, 16 January 2006 (UTC)oldwindybear

Katefan0kate, when you get a chance, will you review this article, it is much more heavily sourced, and the wording far more neutral. Thing is, in the end, there is not a court with jurisidiction to declare this a murder. People have to look at the facts and what was reported by the posse, and decide for themselves, and that almsot applies to much of his record. To those who hired him, he was the great lawman, to the laborers, and strikers, he was a horror, a brute thug. I really tried to clean the article up, source it, and be fair. Let history judge! What do you think? A lot of people have looked at it, and so far, not a lot of disagreement.old windy bear 04:28, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Hey bear, I have glanced at it and my initial thought is that it's quite a bit better; thanks for the hard work! More does exist to be done, though. I just haven't had time to do anything today, and don't have the stomach for it tonight. But I'll look at it tomorrow and make some more detailed ocmments. Thanks again Katefan0/mrp 04:44, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Katefan0 Thanks Kate, I really appreciate your help. i really did try, and would welcome the comments, and input, so it can be brought up to wikipedia standards. I made some additional changes this am to the ambush, based on Hinton's book, which is the best source -- I believe -- (though I think it self-excusing and biased). Hinton makes clear that there were considerable reservations by some of the posse about firing on Bonnie without warning. (Clyde noone worried as much about, considering all the men he had murdered!) Anyway, further help from you is welcomed! I am working hard to make this accurate historically, and fair. To some extent, I truly believe all we can do is present the facts and let the reader decide if Hamer murdered the girl. We are not saying he did, we are saying the question has been raised, which it unquestionably has (and because of Hinton's book, the lack of any capital warrants on her, and the laws of the time, that cannot be libeleous to Hamer's estate, I have checked this carefully!) old windy bear 17:28, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Dispute

Perhaps if you were a family member of one of the officers killed you might not be as simpithetic about the "Two poor kids from Texas".

Perhaps, but I don't honestly believe I am being sympathetic - I am just trying to tell the truth on the way the ambush happened. have you read the books in teh bibliography? Hinton's is generally considered by historians the best account of the ambush, and Hinton makes clear that there were considerable reservations by some of the posse about firing on Bonnie without warning. (Clyde noone worried as much about, considering all the men he had murdered!) He also made clear hamer had planned to fire without warning in advance, period, and the "lurch" excuse is just that. And as you pointed out in your citing of some of Hamer's statements -- but you did not cite them all, because he openly admitted his intention to kill her was formed prior to her arrival. HE YELLED SHOOT WHEN THEY DROVE UP. Hinton's book specifically refutes the "lurch" theory, and Hamer's own statements like "they weren't gonna ride away this time, period, we were gonna put em in the ground." Blunt sad fact: the girl was not wanted for any crime that excused shooting her. Now Clyde -- a plain killer. Anyway, you made some good points, and hope you will consider the other side, not from someone who sympathizes with criminals, but believes in the law, and when a law officer makes his own, he is no better than the criminal he pursues. old windy bear 06:04, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

First crack

I've copyedited the first couple sections. Haven't even looked at those following. I removed quite a bit of text that fell, broadly, into a few categories: biased, or using unencylopedic language, or speculative, or unsourced, or a combination of those things. The worst of it I've just excised. What I felt could be salvaged, I've placed requests for those assertions to be backed up with sourcing. First few steps! Thanks · Katefan0/mrp 01:40, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

>(scribble)Kate, You did a good job on the first few sections, (though obviously I felt the essential issue is legitimate to raise, the shooting of Bonnie without warning, especially after Clyde was dead --as you know, this issue has arisen in many places, on the legality of shooting Bonnie; and I will get you the specfic sourcing you indicated. How do we handle the issues of the laws? Kate, there is no question from anyone that Bonnie was not wanted for murder, nor did the laws of the time provide for accessory in the first degree, etc. The fact that no murder warrants were out for her is a matter of public record -- well, I will ask you more on wording/Will i need the actual number of the Code section in effect at the time in the states involved, (which I can get easily enough) or how would you prefer this to be handled? On the ambush itself, the information on placement, firing orders, (Hamer explicitly ordering them to fire without warning PRIOR TO THE CAR'S ARRIVAL, and some of them questioning that plan, are all in Ted Hinton's book - again, the best source on the ambush itself. Will it be sufficient to have the book, or do you need page numbers?) Thanks for the help, and it will get done. Ted Hinton's book makes clear that the posse, many or most of them, raised teh question of firign without warning, that Frank Hamer personally ordered it done, and had planned it that way prior to the arrival of Bonnie and Clyde. To me, that is the central issue of the article. By the way, I did not put those quotes in from Hamer, that was another user. Resourcing has begun, as you will notice when you work on the next sections, hopefully the specific cites will help. Hope you had a good weekend, old windy bear 01:51, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Bear, thanks a bunch. Some of that information no doubt can be revived, but probably in the B&C section rather than in the "early years," it doesn't really directly apply to that particular section. Sorry I haven't had a chance to look at the rest yet! Best · Katefan0/mrp 19:57, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Katefan0 Kate, you are doing a great job, and you are right, it is probably more appropriate in the B & C section - and all that is important to me is that we get the information out, in appropriate form. Thanks a bunch for your help, and I ordered a book via Amazon on the Tudors tonight, (should be here in 3-5 days) so I will be doing something there also. I will be at the library tomorrow, but I wanted something more. Thanks a bunch for asking me to help with the Tudor project, it doesn't look like I will be involved with the military project, so I will certainly have the time to go wherever you send me to help, and am honored to do so. old windy bear 01:40, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Katefan0 Kate, I have heavily sourced this article now, so what it needs when you have time, is your magic touch as to what you want in, and what not. The legal stuff, as you indicated, belongs in the Bonnie and Clyde section, and I am putting it there, and you can decide what we word and how. old windy bear

Just looked a bit at the fact tag stuff you were cleaning up -- I'd still like to know what exacxtly these books say. We sort of throw out there "political connections" and "problems with the political establishment," but with accusations like that we need to be very specific. In BOOK X, AUTHOR said that Frank Hamer quit the rangers because he X (whatever -- got into an argument with someone, disliked their operating practices, etc.) Can you tell us briefly what these books say on these subjects so we can get a bit more specific? · Katefan0/poll 19:10, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Katefan0 Kate, no problem. I am trying to finish the Battle of Tours first, and then it is back to work on this one. Yes, i can and will do exactly as you say, and make the citation more specific than simply stating the name of the book. I will do as I did in the B & C section where I said "Hinton said xy and z, and Fruits said a, b, and c in such and such books." Also, have you had a chance to look at the section I put in Margarat Tudor? But on this article, no problem, I will make sure the sources are exactly as you need them. Hope you are having a good weekend...old windy bear 20:02, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Still not quite there

When he had political disagreements with the establishment in Harris County, as he had earlier with folks in Navasota - see Gene Shelton's The life and Times of Frank Hamer. (not uncommon in the old west, where a tough lawman would clean things up, and then become an irritant because he was reportedly extremely blunt in his speech)

We say generically why lawmen had trouble, but is this why Hamer had trouble? This still is too vague. What, exactly, does Shelton's book say? · Katefan0/poll 21:17, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Hamer was as well known in his own time for his political connections as he was his law enforcement credentials, as Shelton discussed Frank Hamer's ties to the Texas business and political establishment in his book The Life and Times of Frank Hamer.

This is a little better, but still not there. Does Shelton's book say that Hamer was as well known for his political connections? Or does Shelton's book simply mention some of them? This is an important distinction. · Katefan0/poll 21:21, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Sufficiently unusual in fact, according to Gene Shelton in that book, that the state kept a copy, perhaps realizing that someday people would call him the last of his breed.

It's not clear to me what this is referring to. Does Shelton's book suggest that it was unusual, or are you using it as a source for the fact that the state kept a copy, or for the speculation about calling him back into service? This needs to be made more explicit. Again we come back to the question of what exactly does Shelton's book say. · Katefan0/poll 21:26, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I've removed a tremendous amount of extraneous detail about Bonnie and Clyde's capture and shooting tha tdon't really have much to do with a biography of Frank Hamer. More appropriate, potentially, for the article about the pair. I am also of the opinion that the "aftermath" section needs a lot of trimming, if not completely erasing. Does anyone actually argue that Bonnie was killed illegally? You seem to have a lot of "supporting facts" (bordering on no original research, frankly) without any source that actually argues that there was something amiss. Can you produce such a source? If so, then the rest of this information becomes a little more relevant. · Katefan0/poll 21:43, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

(scribble) Hi Kate! Shelton's book suggested that it was unusual, to answer that question, and NONE of the cited sources believe Hamer had the legal authority to fire without warning; John Treherne travled the country, and found not one warrant for Bonnie's arrest for murder. Without her having a warrant for a capital crime, there were no grounds to use lethal force for her capture. But, as the sources say, Hamer never bothered about the nicities of the law! Also, see the sources for teh posse's reservations about firing on her without warning! I think at the least, it needs to say that questions have been raised about the legality of the ambush -- that is certainly safe encyclopedic language!old windy bear 03:58, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

(scribble) John Treherne's book The Strange Lives of Bonnie and Clyde atually searched every jurisdiction and could find no warrants for murder for Bonnie, that being the case, he, and pretty near everyone else who writes about the pair, questions Hamer's firing on the duo without warning, and even Hamer admitted in his press conferences that he was not concerned about the "nicities of the law." Also, remember that in his own book Ambush, Ted Hinton stated the posse had reservations about firing on Bonnie without warning - and were overriden by Hamer! I think it can be said something like "because there was no known warrant for Bonnie Parker for murder, shooting her without warning from ambush has been questioned by some historians for it's legality." That would be my suggeston - it really is encyclopedia language, and has teh virtue of being the truth! THANKS for all your hard work on this article. I do think, and humbly ask, that the horror of the aftermath of the shooting, with Hamer letting people cut off her bloody clothes and hair, till the coroner asked him to stop - that is sourced page number and all in teh article -- should stay in, but it is up to you! Kate, I think this paragraph or something similiar, needs to be in also, as it raises the legitimate doubts the posse had about Hamer's actions. "In his article "Romeo and Juliet in a Getaway Car" Joesph Gerringer writes of the ambush: "But, Hamer chose not to call out a warning -- not to Bonnie and Clyde...in a voice audible only to those around him, void of drama, void of malice, Hamer ordered, "Shoot!" Also in Hinton's book, the best source on the ambush, he makes clear Hamer had ordered firing without warning no matter what happened prior to the car's arrival. The car was hit over 130 times, with the entry in the passenger, or Bonnie's, side. Hinton's book records Bonnie uttering one long agonized scream , saying in "Ambush," Hinton tells the rest: Hamer says Shoot! then "...Bonnie screams, and I fire and everyone fires!" At no point did anyone in the posse ever claim that they told Bonnie and Clyde to halt or surrender. Hamer himself admitted in I'm Frank Hamer that he intended an ambush where the duo would have no chance. In The Strange Life of Bonnie and Clyde John Treherne also records the ambush as having the posse simply opening fire on Hamer's command without warning. No reliable account of the ambush has ever claimed the posse called out a warning, or intended to, in fact, the opposite, all claim Hamer planned the ambush exactly as it happened. According to E.R. Milner, citing in his book as his source for that quote the Dallas Morning News of May 24, 1934, Hamer gave a press conference at 2:15pm on that day in front of the courthouse in Gibsland, with Tom Simmons of the Texas Department of Corrections, and described in detail the ambush. He stated flatly that they had planned the ambush with the intention of firing without warning, pointing at a bench in front of the Gibsland courthouse and saying "a few weeks ago I sat on that seat and mapped out the plan that was carried out this morning." These two issues, the firing without warning on someone WHO WAS NOT WANTED FOR A CAPITAL OFFENSE, and the incredible aftermath, where people were allowed to cut the dead girl's bloody clothes and hair -- these two need to be in, though languaged appropriate to an encyclopedia. old windy bear 19:35, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Kate's edits on this article

User:Katefan0 hi Kate, I just read your edits of the aftermath - very fair. Thank you. I think you did, in a very professional way, raise the issues which have become more and more public, while not doing so in a way that raises issues outside the biography of this man. Good job,VERY good job and I hope my work helped at least a little...old windy bear 22:02, 24 February 2006 (UTC) ==A BETTER IDEA==Since you and "Old Windy Bare" are so saddened about a pschopath and his moll (who was guilty of aiding and abbeding a fudgitive, even if she had never fired a gun-she could have left at any time, she chose to be where she was on may 23, 1934 and deserved to die, ulike the eleven law officers and two civilians they killed) Why dont you two go to the next "Bonnie and Clyde death scene reinactment" and catch a few bullets yourselves!Randazzo56