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Australia? opponent?

The listing of the group as a terrorist organization does not mean we are at war with them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.174.152.189 (talk) 16:34, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

The previous name..

..had no sources at all. The only google result was this wikipedia article. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 16:59, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Grassroots? Don't think so.

This is not a "grassroots" movement in the typical sense of a community organization passing petitions to get a new park authorized by the city council. Let's not use euphemisms when there are mortar attacks in Mogadishu leaving dozens dead or wounded, alright? --Petercorless 10:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Assumptions

Also as this page evolves, be careful not to make too many assumptions that the insurgency attackers are always Islamist. A Somali in Mogadishu does not have to be an Islamist supporter to be hostile to the Ethiopian presence. And there are one or two clan warlords and their supporters not averse to promoting instability in the city. Maghreb (talk · contribs) 16:24, 22 February 2007

That is 100% correct. There are many different reasons for the violence in Somalia, from individual warlords pursuing their own agendas, to banditry on the part of various individuals, including, allegedly, members of the military. The Islamists are a factor in amongst that, and should not be discounted, but not all violence is due to Islamists. It is very similar to the present situation in Iraq, where Al Qaeda is held up as the cause celebre for the violence, but is only one of the many factors involved in the sectarian and ethnic violence. Even so, I would not call the PRM nor Al Qaeda in Iraq "grassroots" movements. They don't seem to be doing door-to-door solicitation, phone banking, house parties, or gathering signatures on petitions. Underground movements are more appropriate. --Petercorless 21:06, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Removed sentence

Moved the following sentence until someone can find a source:

Members earned a salary of $70 a month, paid for by their leader, Aden Hashi Farah "Eyrow" (or Ayro).

Some apparent sources out there seem to have been taken directly from the wikipedia article itself so please confirm the validity —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.2.125.253 (talk) 19:55, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect information

The Current leader of the Harakah Al-Mujahideen Al-Shabaab is Sheikh Mukhtar Abu Zubeyr, and, as far as I know, has always been him. Aden Hashi Ayro (Abu Muhsin Al-Ansari), was a founding member and high-ranking commander, but NOT the leader of the group, and Sheikh Mukhtar Robow is not the leader now either. He is the spokesman and Amir of the Bay-Bakool regions in central Somalia. I think that this should be changed. The Al-Shabaab statement released after Ayro's death attests to all of this, and there was a speech recently released by Mukhtar Abu Zubeyr which labels him 'Leader of the Organization'.

Sa'ad June 7 2008

Rewrite in progress if anyone wants to help

I am undertaking a cleanup of this article. I am keeping most text and references as they are, just adding new headings and tidying things up. If you wish to assist then visit my sandbox. I should be done by the end of the month. Suggestions welcome. - Damian Doyle (talk) 19:16, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

• This rewrite has been delayed but will take place soon. - Damian Doyle (talk) 23:52, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Al-Shabaab's flag/logo

According to Al-Shabaab's website, their logo looks like this. Should the flag displayed on this article be removed? - Damian Doyle (talk) 09:15, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Is the flag in the article the correct one? The name of the file says it is "Somalia_Islamic_Courts_Flag.svg‎". This is not Al Shabaab. Should the flag be changed/removed ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.18.48.135 (talk) 14:39, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Somalia’s Shabaab al-Mujahideen

Is this the same group? http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=4935

http://www.memrijttm.org/content/en/report.htm?report=3014&param=AJT --BoogaLouie (talk) 21:40, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Police Raids in Melbourne, Australia

On the morning of August 4th, 2009, (4:30 am) 400 police from Victoria, New South Wales and Australian Federal Police raided 19 houses across Melbourne. They arrested two Somalian-decendants and two Lebanese-decendants (all four are now Australian citizens), two of whom have recently visited Somalia. The police claim they were going to attack an Army Base in Sydney and have links to the Al-Shabaab group. A Reporter also stated that the raids were leaked to the media and was released in The Australian Newspaper around 1:30 am. Adamdaley (talk) 02:24, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

On NBN (Channel 9) News at 6:00 pm - August 4th, 2009 - stated that the Holsworthy Barracks was the target of this attack. Adamdaley (talk) 08:04, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Rewrite

Am going to rewrite the article. The lead is too long, and there's no history. --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:23, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Here is the result. Lead is shortened, sections have been added and material added. --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:43, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Move request

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Arbitrarily0  19:55, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Harakat al-Shabaab al-Mujahideen → Al-Shabaab — Harakat al-Shabaab al-Mujahideen is the formal, complete name that is almost never used in coverage of this group. Note that every single title in the references section uses "Al-Shabaab" or a variant spelling. al-Shabaab already redirects here, since it was the initial location of the article. BanyanTree 07:14, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

• Support move to more common and widely used name. I personally have never heard the long form used, but the short form is instantly recognizeable.Erudy (talk) 17:56, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Iranian support claim highly questionable given rest of text

At a few places, Iran is listed as one of 3 state supporters (libya, egypt, Iran). However, Iran is Shi'ite and also has a history of aiding extremist groups with quite specific geopolitical agendas that advance core Iranian national interests within the Middle East region. Moreover, when individual leaders, activists, financiers, managers, and supporters are mentioned further down, they are all Pakistani, Yemeni, Egyptian, or Saudi -- or, more generically, Al-Qaeda. And in this regard, Iran is an adversary of Arab, Sunni states (and vice-versa).

Thus, in short, this article shows signs of doing what all media outlets are doing, which is throwing Iran into the bucket even when all other evidence (and article text) points toward fundamentalist Sunni sects (Deobandi, Salafi, Wahhabi) associated loosely with Arab Sunni-dominated countries or societies. This reflects the US (Washington) policy debate but does not necessarily reflect empirical reality.

More to the point, it is entirely too easy to throw out the words "libya" and "iran" when they are still either state adversaries or are in a grey area (libya), while it is hard to use the word "Saudi," given that they are the world's foremost oil producer, the leader in OPEC, and listed and treated as a close US ally. This was true as well in articles on Iraq, 2003 to present, when IEDs were almost uniformly blamed on Iran but in fact empirical evidence often pointed toward Saudi extremists crossing the Saudi border into Iraq, and indeed, Petraeus' war during the surge was all about Sunni Arabs in Al-Anbar province killing, arresting, and kicking out fundamentalist Sunni transnational terrorists, not Iranian Shi'ite terrorists.

Michael Kraig —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.60.240.80 (talk) 19:23, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

The point may be moot, as the claim being made has no reference cited. The two citations that follow a sentence later have to do with Egyptian water and contain no reference to support from Iran (the only reference to Iran at all is in a wholly different context). So while I'd say you should back up your assertions with sources, the current text is also not backed up and should be removed. Can we get either a source on it, or a consensus to remove?Jbower47 (talk) 19:12, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Ties to Somaliland

Hi,

I'm not the anonymous editor who has been blanking this section, although I have some sympathy with him/her. It seems to be entirely sourced from Puntland media, often quoting Puntland government sources. These can't be considered reliable, given the ongoing disputes between the two regions. It also ignores the fact that the Somaliland government has completely denied the claims, and that al-Shabaab attacked Somaliland, including the Presidential Palace, in 2008 - 2008 Hargeisa–Bosaso bombings.

I think this section needs to be radically rewritten at the very least. --Copper button 20:07, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Garowe Online is not "Puntland media". It is independent Somali media based in the Puntland region, just as many other Somali media organizations are based and broadcast/publish from abroad. The only region in Somalia that does not allow independent press to operate within its territory is the secessionist Somaliland region in the northwest . Also, this news outlet is hardly the only source that has pointed out Somaliland's ties with Al-Shabaab (ties which have primarily strengthened under the new Somaliland administration, well after the Hargeisa bombings of almost three years ago); it is just the latest (e.g. ). Middayexpress (talk) 21:56, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm aware that Garowe Online is not state-controlled but it is still "Puntland media" in the way that Le Monde is "French media" or Der Spiegel is "German media." The other article you quote was written just as Silanyo was elected and states that Somaliland had previously been hostile to al-Shabaab but predicts that this would change. It doesn't support the current state of the article. --Copper button 18:34, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the article (which is tellingly titled "Somaliland Predictions Bearing Out: al-Shabaab Terrorist Group Empowered; Ethiopia May React" ) was published almost a month after the election of the Silanyo administration. It also states, among other things, the following in reference to the Somaliland region's new Minister of Interior/Defense:

"Dr Mohamed Abdi Gaboose, a radical Islamist and longtime associate of the new President, was named Minister of Interior and Domestic Affairs. He is a member of the Yunis sub-clan of the Isaaq, and, as noted by Defense & Foreign Affairs Special Analysis of July 14, 2010, has strong personal connections with al-Shabaab. His new position places him in direct control of internal security and intelligence, and thus overcomes all of the efforts of the previous Government to work with the Western states against al-Qaida-linked terrorist groups, such as al-Shabaab.".

So yes, I'm afraid it most certainly supports Somaliland's increasing ties with Al-Shabaab; here's another from the International Strategic Studies Association. Middayexpress (talk) 23:19, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

The section you quote states that a Somaliland cabinet member (appointed a few days before) has personal ties to al-Shabaab. It doesn't say that Somaliland is in any way linked to al-Shabaab. The second article you cite is even vaguer - it simply predicts that cooperation with al-Shabaab will become routine. It's interesting to note that several of the other predictions (Somaliland will impose a harsh form of Sharia law, will sever ties with Ethiopia) have not come true. More recent news suggests that Somaliland is taking a hard line against al-Shabaab, for example recently arresting a bunch of al-Shabaab fighters . I think the current section should be limited to a single sentence, listing Puntland's claims and Somaliland's denials. --Copper button 16:07, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

The section won't be censored to a single sentence because the allegations surrounding Somaliland's ties to Al-Shabaab run much deeper than that. The Somaliland administration's reaction to Puntland's charges can be mentioned, but Puntland's charges won't be muffled because they are notable. Further, the article you produced above refers to the recent raid that Somaliland authorities made after foreign authorities in the region noticed terrorist elements there, not before ("Somalia: Somaliland silent as 'foreign soldiers' help capture terrorists" ). The term "Somaliland ties" likewise obviously refers to links that people within the Somaliland administration have with Al-Shabaab, not the landmass itself. And that unfortunately includes none other than the Minister of Interior/Defense -- the person who is actually in charge of the armed forces in the region -- according to that article by the International Strategic Studies Association (that is why it is titled "Somaliland Predictions Bearing Out: al-Shabaab Terrorist Group Empowered; Ethiopia May React" ). Remember, Puntland's intelligence agency, which is trained by U.S. security authorities, alleges that several actual Somaliland soldiers participated in the Galgala campaign and a couple of them died too; this is how they were able to identify them as such, going so far as to actually name one of them. With an Interior Minister/boss that's an Islamist according to the ISSA, that does not at all sound implausible:

"Dr Mohamed Abdi Gaboose, a radical Islamist and longtime associate of the new President, was named Minister of Interior and Domestic Affairs. He is a member of the Yunis sub-clan of the Isaaq, and, as noted by Defense & Foreign Affairs Special Analysis of July 14, 2010, has strong personal connections with al-Shabaab. His new position places him in direct control of internal security and intelligence, and thus overcomes all of the efforts of the previous Government to work with the Western states against al-Qaida-linked terrorist groups, such as al-Shabaab."

Similarly, according to the second article by the ISSA , Somaliland's new president himself is tied to Islamists ("the pan-Somalist, radical Islamist Kulmiye party candidate, Ahmed Mohamed Silanyo") and Al-Shabaab itself was involved in the change in leadership in Somaliland following this past summer's elections:

"The Pan-Somalists and al-Shabaab and others involved in the change in Somaliland are themselves openly and strenuously hostile to Ethiopia, which had militarily supported the Somaliland Government and had also put troops into Somalia — including into the Somalian capital (and former capital of Italian Somaliland), Mogadishu, to fight the Islamists, including al-Shabaab"

As a former leader of the Somali National Movement rebel group (whose followers refer to them as "Mujahidiin", just like what Al-Shabaab call themselves ), this is likewise within the realm of plausibility. But none of this really matters anyway since, per WP:VER, "the threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth; that is, whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true." Middayexpress (talk) 20:39, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

That's a long response, but you haven't introduced much new information. Your argument still rests on the following:

• A member of the Somaliland cabinet reportedly had personal ties to al-Shabaab prior to being elected.
• Puntland claims that Somaliland has ties to al-Shabaab.
• Conflating Islamism (a very broad movement) with al-Shabaab.

I'm aware of Misplaced Pages's policies. The one you don't mention is Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. I could quote at length, but "Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts" just about covers it. This has nothing to do with censorship. It's about fairly reflecting what the reliable sources say.

I don't think we're likely to reach agreement through this discussion, so I have a suggestion: I'll make an edit to the article, you can have a look at it, make further changes and we can work from there. Does that sound reasonable? --Copper button 22:07, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

That's a gross misrepresentation of the situation. Both the Puntland administration and the International Strategic Studies Association unambiguously indicate that the Somaliland adminisration has strong ties with the Al-Shabaab militants (that's in the present tense -- both ISSA articles were published after the election of the new Somaliland administration). The only group or polity contesting this is the Somaliland administration itself, so that quote above from WP:NPOV is beside the point. This discussion is going in circles, so I will query shortly on RS/N as to whether or not the sources in question are reliable. Middayexpress (talk) 22:49, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I must have explained this poorly. There is a world of difference between the oilprice.com article stating that a Somaliland cabinet member has personal ties to al-Shabaab and the Puntland claims that the Somaliland authorities are directly supporting and collaborating with al-Shabaab. Anyway, how does my recent edit look? --Copper button 17:16, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

The "oil price article" unfortunately is also from the International Strategic Studies Association (, ); it was just re-published on the oilprice website, among others. And it, of course, is quite unambiguous about the Somaliland administration's ties with Al-Shabaab, particularly its Minister of Interior:

"Dr Mohamed Abdi Gaboose, a radical Islamist and longtime associate of the new President, was named Minister of Interior and Domestic Affairs. He is a member of the Yunis sub-clan of the Isaaq, and, as noted by Defense & Foreign Affairs Special Analysis of July 14, 2010, has strong personal connections with al-Shabaab. His new position places him in direct control of internal security and intelligence, and thus overcomes all of the efforts of the previous Government to work with the Western states against al-Qaida-linked terrorist groups, such as al-Shabaab."

The sources you removed have been restored until the admins I shall contact shortly respond as to whether or not they are reliable. Removing them is also pretty pointless since many other sources (including Reuters ) have covered Puntland's charges as well as Somaliland's response; it is therefore already notable. At any rate, kindly do not again remove or alter the material until the issue is resolved. Middayexpress (talk) 22:05, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

P.S. The Somaliland region's ties with Al-Shabaab are not "external support"; that would be Eritrea. Somaliland's links constitute internal support. Middayexpress (talk) 22:05, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I think I explained that my problem is with Neutral point of view. I have no problem with the Puntland sources being used to say "Puntland claims that Somaliland has links to al-Shabaab". I used them like this in my version. I object to them being used to state that "Somaliland has links to al-Shabaab", as done in the original verison. "Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts", as I quoted before.

The current version of the article is better than the original but still has major problems.

• The Somaliland section is about three times longer than the Eritrea section, despite there being UN sanctions against Eritrea over the issue while the Somaliland section is almost entirely based on six months of material. The unqualified listing of Somaliland as an ally of al-Shabaab also needs to be changed. Misplaced Pages:Undue weight.
• It essentially paraphrases every relevant piece of information from every source. This is far too much detail for an article covering the whole of al-Shabaab. An encyclopedia article should summarise what the sources say, rather than repeat it.

Would you like to have a go at writing something we can both agree on or would you like to explain what you didn't like about my version and I'll have a go? --Copper button 11:19, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

I've already explained above what was wrong with your edit (omitting key information), and fixed it too. The only phrases in the article that could be construed as coming directly from a Puntland-based media source (rather than simply reporting Puntland's charges) are the ones that reference Garowe Online's special report on Atom : "Garowe Online reported in October that Mohamed Said Atom, an arms-smuggler believed to be allied with Al-Shabaab and who is on U.S. and U.N. security watch-lists, was hiding out in Somaliland after being pursued by the neighboring Puntland region's authorities for his role in targeted assassination attempts against Puntland officials as well as bomb plots... Several of Atom's followers were also reportedly receiving medical attention in the region". Note that those phrases just state that Atom and his men were hiding out/receiving treatment in Somaliland, not that the Somaliland authorities actually provided them with a safe haven as Puntland alleges. And Garowe Online, again, is an independent news organization. It even publishes op-ed pieces from supporters of Somaliland's secession (e.g. ), so it cannot be accused of bias. Again, the only region in Somalia that does not allow independent media (nevermind pro-unity op-ed pieces) is the Somaliland region itself . The Somaliland section is also longer than the Eritrea section because the region has a much longer history of involvement in the conflict in southern Somalia (this is not to say that the Eritrea section cannot be expanded; I'm sure it can). Including Somaliland alongside Eritrea in the infobox area that lists the groups/polities allied with or who have lent support to Al-Shabaab is also not placing undue weight since Somaliland's administration (at the highest levels, no less) has expressly been accused of such involvement by both Puntland authorities and the International Strategic Studies Association. Had it been just the Puntland administration that was accusing Somaliland, then yes, I would agree that adding Somaliland to the infobox would be a bit excessive.

Let's keep things in perspective here:

• Puntland has officially accused Somaliland of having strong ties with Al-Shabaab. This has been covered by all sorts of media, including Reuters.
• Somaliland has officially denied Puntland's charges. This too have been widely covered, including by Somaliland media.
• The ISSA has likewise accused Somaliland's administration of direct involvement with Al-Shabaab, including the region's President, its ruling political party and Interior Minister. This is no different to the ICG accusing Eritrea of having ties with Al-Shabaab, which has also been noted.
• Many of the Al-Shabaab group's top commanders hail from the Somaliland region's dominant, ruling clan. This includes both the former and current head of the organization, a fact that has also been covered by numerous sources.
• Somaliland's own, non-independent media (Hatuuf) has reported that a representative of Atom's has sought direct military assistance from the region. This too is notable.

Attempting to omit and/or limit parts of the above smacks of censorship. I have contacted an admin that regularly posts on RS/N about whether or not the disputed Garowe Online special report is a reliable source for the phrases cited above as to the whereabouts of Atom and his men. I ask you again to kindly not remove or alter the material until the gentleman responds and the issue is resolved. Middayexpress (talk) 21:30, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Please let me clarify a few things, to save you rebutting arguments I haven't made in the future. I have no problem with the Garowe Online article you quote being used as a source for Atom's men fleeing to Somaliland. I have never claimed otherwise. I have no problems with using Garowe Online and other sources to report on the Puntland Government's claims, provided they are identified as such.

My problem is with giving undue weight to the Puntland Government's claims, given the ongoing disputes between the two. (I am equally sceptical about Somaliland's claims that Puntland is supporting Shabaab-linked fighters, incidentally. )

My edit summarised this section as "In late 2010, the neighbouring region of Puntland claimed that Somaliland was supporting and shielding Shabaab-linked fighters."

Your response was to remove everything I had added and tell me I was wrong. Would you like to have a go at building some consensus? I haven't reverted you at all, I'm not trying to censor anything, I'm just trying to write a NPOV encylopedia article.

Regaridng your other points, I must again quote "avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts". I think that the fact that Somaliland completely denies the claims means they are seriously contested and listing Somaliland as a supporter of al-Shabaab with no qualification is stating it as fact. I respect your opinion, but this is pretty cut and dry.

The (uncontested) fact that some al-Shabaab leaders come from Somaliland is covered elsewhere in the article and not relevant in a section entitled "Support allegations". I'll leave off discussing the ISSA until we've managed to sort this out. --Copper button 23:16, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

As can clearly be seen in this dif, your edit removed and/or significantly understated large bits of information tying the Somaliland administration with the Al-Shabaab rebels. My edit expanded your edit, practically doubling the Eritrea section, mentioning in detail what the Somaliland authorities suggested is the reason behind Puntland's accusations, and actually quoting the ISSA's specific charges vis-a-vis Somaliland's president, ruling party and Interior Minister (not just what those ties might hold in store in the future, as your edit suggested).

Moving on, neither Somaliland nor any other polity or organization has issued statements accusing Puntland of supporting Al-Shabaab or of being in any way linked with the group. It's the writer of that Somalilandpress article you linked to -- one "Dalmar Kahin", an open advocate of Somaliland's secession -- who personally attempts to tie Puntland with Al-Shabaab via the SSC rebels ("But few knew that Puntland authority might be arming this Alshabab-affiliated rebel group, known as PSS (SSC/NSUM), and local clans to attack Somaliland security forces"). It is not the Somaliland administration or any other polity or organization that does this. There is likewise no polity or organization that links the SSC rebels themselves with Al-Shabaab (unlike the ICG, which ties Eritrea with Al-Shabaab & the ISSA, which ties Somaliland with the same group), so that whole argument is beside the point. In making this claim, this Kahin fellow also contradicts something he stated in another recent article of his which he links to in that piece to the effect that the "Puntland authority views the PSS (SSC) group as a threat to the region's stability".

Your citing WP:NPOV's statement to "avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts" is also, again, out-of-place since that only applies to statements that "are stated in Misplaced Pages's voice" rather than "attributed in the text to particular sources". As can clearly be seen in the text, all of Puntland's claims are attributed directly to Puntland, Somaliland's to Somaliland, the ISSA's to the ISSA, Garowe Online's to Garowe Online, and Godane's to Godane. They are never made in "Misplaced Pages's voice", but specifically in the format that that policy itself recommends.

Your suggestion that Puntland's claims are given undue weight is also unfortunately mistaken because, as already pointed out, plenty of reliable sources (including Reuters) cover Puntland's charges, and per that same policy, "in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Misplaced Pages editors or the general public".

Your suggestion that the fact that several Al-Shabaab leaders come from Somaliland is not relevant to the "Support allegations" section is also something of an understatement since, along with foreign commanders, these men occupy several of the highest positions in the organization, including both the former and current leadership spots. These commanders also hail from the Somaliland region's dominant clan -- the same clan that constitutes over 70% of the current Somaliland administration, including all of the important ministerial positions and the presidency (c.f. ). At any rate, I don't have a problem moving this passage to the earlier Leadership section; it probably should've already been there in the first place.

Now that you have hinted that the ISSA might also be a problem -- although you yourself first added the source to the article -- I have posted an additional query asking whether or not it is a reliable source for use on Misplaced Pages. As always, kindly do not remove or alter the material until the gentleman has had a chance to respond and the issue is resolved. Middayexpress (talk) 20:15, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm very sorry if this wasn't clear, but I mentioned "avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts" in the context of listing Somaliland as an ally of al-Shabab with no qualification in the infobox. What is this, if not stating the assertion "in Misplaced Pages's voice"?

I have no problem with including Puntland's claims. I included them in my version. I agree that they are both verifiable and notable. I do have a problem with paraphrasing everything that has been written about them at great length. An encyclopedia article should summarise what the sources say, drawing out the key points, rather than repeating it line by line.

Read some featured articles - July 2009 Ürümqi riots deals well with a somewhat controversial topic. For example: "the World Uyghur Congress quickly issued press releases saying that the police had used deadly force and killed "scores" of protesters." It briefly conveys the key points. It doesn't duplicate everything in the press releases, which is what this section currently does.

This is what I tried to achieve with my edit. If you think I omitted too much information, that's fine. I think your version is too wordy. Would you like to try and write something we can both be happy with?

Finally, I let this go last time, but I don't appreciate being told that you're the only one who is allowed to alter the content of the article. I don't currently plan to edit the article (I think everything I've said and done so far proves that I'm trying to build consensus on the talk page amicably) but saying "kindly do not remove or alter the material" isn't really fair, is it? --Copper button 00:27, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm very sorry if this wasn't clear, but I mentioned "avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts" in the context of listing Somaliland as an ally of al-Shabab with no qualification in the infobox. What is this, if not stating the assertion "in Misplaced Pages's voice"?

It wasn't at all clear that you were referring strictly to the infobox since you didn't mention it specifically. At any rate, I see your point here, so I've removed both Eritrea & Somaliland from the infobox (since both polities contest their putative involvement). Middayexpress (talk) 18:37, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I have no problem with including Puntland's claims. I included them in my version. I agree that they are both verifiable and notable. I do have a problem with paraphrasing everything that has been written about them at great length. An encyclopedia article should summarise what the sources say, drawing out the key points, rather than repeating it line by line.

Read some featured articles - July 2009 Ürümqi riots deals well with a somewhat controversial topic. For example: "the World Uyghur Congress quickly issued press releases saying that the police had used deadly force and killed "scores" of protesters." It briefly conveys the key points. It doesn't duplicate everything in the press releases, which is what this section currently does.

This is what I tried to achieve with my edit. If you think I omitted too much information, that's fine. I think your version is too wordy. Would you like to try and write something we can both be happy with?

Actually, your edit omitted pretty much all of Puntland's charges (as shown above), and that's precisely the problem. Puntland's charges are very lengthy -- much longer than that one press release , only one sentence of which is devoted to it in this article ("the Puntland government issued a press release accusing the incumbent Somaliland administration of providing a safe haven for Atom and of attempting to revive remnants of his militia") -- and actually span several years over various publications and press releases. The handful of sentences in this article that summarize these charges don't even scratch the surface, so it's a bit of a stretch to describe them as undue (which is what you appear to doing again; please refer to my comment above about why the passages are by definition not undue). Middayexpress (talk) 18:37, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Finally, I let this go last time, but I don't appreciate being told that you're the only one who is allowed to alter the content of the article. I don't currently plan to edit the article (I think everything I've said and done so far proves that I'm trying to build consensus on the talk page amicably) but saying "kindly do not remove or alter the material" isn't really fair, is it?

You were never told that I was the only one allowed to alter the content, so there's no point in insisting that I said that. The fact is, you specifically complained about material that pertained to leadership/command of the group being quoted in the Support allegations section ("The (uncontested) fact that some al-Shabaab leaders come from Somaliland is covered elsewhere in the article and not relevant in a section entitled "Support allegations""). As I explained in my previous post, I tried to accommodate your concerns by moving the material to the relevant Leadership area since it actually wasn't cited anywhere in the article ("I don't have a problem moving this passage to the earlier Leadership section; it probably should've already been there in the first place"), so you cannot now accuse me of being unreasonable. At any rate, I agree that we should try and work together to sort this out. Middayexpress (talk) 18:37, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Thankyou very much for editing the infobox. While we're on the subject, is there any reason why it shows flag for al-Qaeda in Iraq, rather than simply al-Qaeda?

I must have inferred that you considered yourself allowed to edit the article. Still, on three occasions you instructed me not to edit it, which is what bothered me.

I know that you were unhappy that I omitted most of the specifics of Puntland's charges. I think that the current version is overlong and not written in an encyclopedic style. Would you like to draft a version we might both be happy with or shall I? Or can you see another way forward? --Copper button 19:25, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't think you quite understand how Misplaced Pages works. Per WP:VER, it does not matter whether or not you are comfortable with particular material in the article as long as that material is from a reliable source: "Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth; that is, whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true.". It has already been demonstrated that the material in question is from reliable sources, so attempting to remove it as you have done is tantamount to censorship. Middayexpress (talk) 20:41, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm happy to put your mind at rest. The policy states that everything in Misplaced Pages must be verifiable, not that everything that is verifiable must be in Misplaced Pages. Can you imagine if that were actually the case? We would be forced to include even the most irrelevant details if there was a reliable source for them.

But that isn't really the issue. I don't object to any of the core facts appearing in the article but, as I said last time, "I think that the current version is overlong and not written in an encyclopedic style". This section clearly looks nothing like the featured article I linked to. Are you interested in improving it? --Copper button 21:21, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I got you the first time you stated your position. As pointed out, however, that is all opinion (viz. "I think that the current version is overlong and not written in an encyclopedic style"), not actual Wiki policy. And Misplaced Pages's best practices unfortunately aren't determined by editors' opinions or select featured articles but by its actual policies, several of which have been quoted above. Even if this weren't the case, your claim that the paragraph pretty much repeats the entire Puntland press release is still inaccurate since, in reality, only one sentence in the paragraph is earmarked to summarize Puntland's entire press release ("the Puntland government issued a press release accusing the incumbent Somaliland administration of providing a safe haven for Atom and of attempting to revive remnants of his militia"). Similarly, only two other sentences were devoted to Puntland's charges -- one explaining why the region believes Somaliland is supporting Al-Shabaab, just as it is indicated why the Somaliland administration believes Puntland is accusing it of supporting the group -- nevermind the fact that said charges actually span several years and over various publications and press releases. Bottom line, there is no such Wiki policy as WP:OVERLONG; and even if there were, this paragraph still wouldn't breach it. There are, however, policies such as WP:NOTCENSOR, which seems particularly relevant here. Middayexpress (talk)

I've tried to explain this a couple of times before, but I'm really not trying to censor anything. I think the bit about Somaliland's rebuttal needs to be shortened just as much as the initial claims. I have no ties to Somaliland or Puntland and am not interested in promoting either cause. I'm just trying to write an encyclopedia article. I'm sure you're equally dispassionate so how about we assume some good faith and try to build consensus? --Copper button 20:49, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I would like to believe your statements above, but it's a bit difficult to do that given the fact that you have cited pro-secessionist material as authoritative (viz. that "Dalmar Kahin" article above) and have repeatedly complained about and, at one point, even removed almost all of Puntland's charges. Whatever the case, you have not presented valid arguments to justify the removal of the material in question, and the consensus process only pertains to legitimate concerns that are in line with Misplaced Pages's policies: "Consensus is a decision that takes account of all the legitimate concerns raised. All editors are expected to make a good-faith effort to reach a consensus aligned with Misplaced Pages's principles." Indicating that you are just trying to write an encyclopedia is not a valid reason for removing sourced material; only Misplaced Pages's actual policies determine the website's best practices, not editors' personal assurances/claims: "Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines are developed by the community to describe best practice, clarify principles, resolve conflicts, and otherwise further our goal of creating a free, reliable encyclopedia". You already indicated that you felt that the Puntland material was too long, when in reality, it is only three sentences long -- nevermind the fact that said charges actually span several years and over various publications and press releases. And even if this had not been the case, it wouldn't really matter either way since there is no such policy as WP:OVERLONG (which the sentences wouldn't breach anyway). Similarly, per WP:NOTCENSOR, ""being objectionable" is generally not sufficient grounds for removal of content". WP:VER is likewise clear that "the threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth; that is, whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true." Since the material in question is from reliable sources and given the forgoing, there is still no legitimate reason to attempt to remove/censor it. Middayexpress (talk) 19:09, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

You may wish to re-read my comments. I didn't say that the Dalmar Kahin article was authoritative. Quite the reverse, actually. I said I was sceptical when I referenced it in passing, ironically in an attempt to point out that I wasn't partial to either side.

As I have previously explained, my edit attempted to summarise a section of text. I think this was quite obviously a good faith edit and perfectly normal activity for a Misplaced Pages editor.

Regarding the policies you quote, I'm not trying to shorten this material because it's objectionable or because it's not verifiable so they aren't relevant. I'm trying to shorten it because I think it can be written better.

Since you seem so unwilling to propose a compromise, I'll try myself. I'd say that the key facts in the Puntland section are these:

• Atom & followers hiding out/receiving medical attention in Somaliland
• Somaliland soldiers fighting with Atom
• Somaliland accused of providing a safe haven
• Financial and military assistance in 2006
• Somaliland denies charges
• Atom denies links to al-Shabaab
• Atom requests help from Somaliland

I think these can be fairly summarised as follows:

In January 2011, Puntland accused Somaliland of providing a safe haven for Mohamed Said Atom, an arms smuggler believed to be allied with al-Shabaab. The Somaliland authorities strenuously denied the charges, claiming that they were a smokescreen to divert attention from Puntland's own activities.

Atom and his followers were reportedly hiding out and receiving medical attention in Somaliland after being pursued by Puntland forces in late 2010. The Puntland Intelligence Agency also claimed that over 70 salaried Somaliland soldiers had fought alongside Atom's militiamen, including one known Somaliland intelligence official who died in the ensuing battle. In January Atom's representative requested military assistance from Somaliland, while denying that he was linked to al-Shabaab.

Puntland also claimed that Somaliland had offered financial and military assistance to Atom in 2006 as part of an ongoing dispute with Puntland.

This is roughly half the length of the current version but I don't think it omits any important details. If you don't like it I'd really appreciate specific feedback, particularly on what else needs to be included. --Copper button 19:53, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

As repeatedly explained via actual difs, your initial edit omitted pretty much all of Puntland's charges. Your paragraph above this time omits all of the International Strategic Studies Association's charges, which is the main reason why it is much smaller than the existing paragraph on Somaliland's alleged ties with the group. Another reason why it is shorter is because you also omitted key details, such as the fact that Puntland's intelligence agency that accused Somaliland troops of fighting alongside Atom's men is actually trained by U.S. intelligence. You also seriously understated why Puntland believes Somaliland is backing the rebels: Puntland believes it is part of a campaign to destabilize the autonomous territory via proxy agents and to distract attention away from the Somaliland government's own attempts at occupying the disputed Sool province, not simply "as part of an ongoing dispute with Puntland". That's not even including the fact that your paragraph completely omits just what exactly Atom is accused of having done in Puntland: he is wanted for targeted assassination attempts against Puntland officials as well as bomb plots. I don't know why I even bothered pointing out these things. This is the second time now you have attempted to remove material, and without even so much as having first established any legitimate reason for doing so. This is unacceptable. Middayexpress (talk) 20:22, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

As I said, this was a summary of the Puntland section. My version is half the length of the Puntland section in the article. I'm deliberately addressing one issue at a time to make discussion simpler. Your specific objections:

• I don't see how the fact that the PIA is trained by the US is relevant to an article on al-Shabaab. This seems a tangential detail.
• I'm in two minds on your second point. I think my version was a reasonable summary but I can see that it could be phrased more strongly. What do you think of: "...assistance to Atom in 2006 to destabilize Puntland as part of an ongoing territorial dispute"? I think that makes it clear that Atom was used as a proxy and that Somaliland wanted to occupy a disputed province.
• Surely it's enough to state that Atom is believed to be linked to al-Shabab? This section is about Somaliland's ties to al-Shabaab. If Somaliland is linked to Atom and Atom is linked to al-Shabaab then the details of Atom's activities in Puntland are irrelevant.

As always, I'd welcome your thoughts. --Copper button 21:06, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough in my previous posts. What is or is not admissible on Misplaced Pages is not determined by an editor's opinions but by Misplaced Pages's policies only. That means that attempting to water-down Puntland's accusations vis-a-vis Somaliland's motives to a vague "ongoing dispute"/"ongoing territorial dispute" (when it's really about Somaliland allegedly attempting to destabilize Puntland to promote its secessionist agenda) or neglecting to mention the specific crimes that Atom is accused of (when most of the article is devoted to Al-Shabaab's many crimes) will never wash. That also means that your assertions that the fact that Puntland's intelligence agency was actually trained by US intelligence is a "tangential" detail -- something which is absurd to begin with since it is specifically cited in Garowe Online's editorial on Atom's and Al-Shabaab's ties with Somaliland -- do not matter. Per WP:VER "the threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth; that is, whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true". Middayexpress (talk) 21:46, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Your argument seems to be that no-one is allowed to remove anything that is mentioned in a source, however irrelevant it may be to the subject of an article. I've previously explained that Misplaced Pages:Verifiability says that material that cannot be verified must be removed. It doesn't say that everything that is verifiable must stay in the article. Which policy do you think applies here?

If most of this article is devoted to al-Shabaab's crimes then that's because the article is about al-Shabaab. The details of Atom's activities don't affect al-Shabaab's links to Somaliland. And you haven't explained why you think the PIA being US-trained is relevant. You could write articles about Atom and the PIA if you wanted to include this information somewhere else.

Regarding your other point, my suggestion included "destabilize Puntland". I'm not keen on "promote its secessionist agenda", though. This seems to be unnecessarily emotive language for an encyclopedia. I look forward to your response. --Copper button 20:43, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

The article does not state that Somaliland is looking to destabilize Puntland to promote its secessionist agenda (though it easily could, given the many reliable sources that indicate precisely this; e.g. "Puntland government documents obtained by Garowe Online dating back to 2006 indicate that Somaliland's administration supported Atom's militia in Galgala area as a way to open a war front against Puntland. The idea was quite simple: with Mogadishu at war, it was only the stability of Puntland that threatened to break apart Somaliland's grand lie of saying: "Somaliland is peaceful while Somalia burns"); so your argument on "emotive language" is beside the point. It has also already been explained why your other argument that the fact that Puntland's intelligence agency is trained by the US is irrelevant to Somaliland's ties with Al-Shabaab is invalid: this training is specifically cited in Garowe Online's editorial on Atom's and Al-Shabaab's ties with Somaliland; WP:IRRELEVANT likewise defines irrelevant material as "information that clearly has no relevance to the subject named in the article should be removed" such as "if in the article tiger you find one or more paragraphs about light bulbs, and there is no explanation from the text why this is there". Further, your claim that "the details of Atom's activities don't affect al-Shabaab's links to Somaliland" is, with all due respect, absurd, since Atom himself personally declared a few months back that he and his men "are members of the Shabab" (though he later back-tracked on this when Puntland began cracking down on his militia) and since he has been identified as an Al-Shabaab operative by the UN . Lastly, your claim that I suggested that "no-one is allowed to remove anything that is mentioned in a source, however irrelevant it may be to the subject of an article" is a strawman argument; I unfortunately never stated that. What I did do was quote for you WP:VER's very first sentence explaining what is the threshold for inclusion of material on Misplaced Pages: "the threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth; that is, whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true". The materials are from reliable sources; ergo, they meet the threshold for inclusion whether or not one personally believes the material to be true. Your entire argument rests on non-existent Misplaced Pages policy constraints regarding content removal, when in reality, per WP:CRV, valid reasons for removing content are limited to the following points:

• Unsourced information -- the material is sourced, so nothing doing here
• Inaccurate information -- only applies to "information that is surely inaccurate beyond a reasonable doubt", which the material in question likewise does not fall under
• Information moved to another article -- not applicable
• Irrelevant information -- as defined earlier, it refers only to "information that clearly has no relevance to the subject named in the article should be removed" such as "if in the article tiger you find one or more paragraphs about light bulbs, and there is no explanation from the text why this is there"; that is what irrelevant material is on Misplaced Pages
• Inappropriate content for Misplaced Pages -- refers specifically to things like personal opinions, promotional or derogatory material, inappropriate external links and vandalism, none of which the material in question falls under either.

That's all of the valid reasons for removing material, none of which unfortunately apply to the present text. This is why it always comes back down to censorship concerns. Middayexpress (talk) 18:22, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

The section is about al-Shabaab's links to Somaliland. If Somaliland is linked to Atom and Atom is linked to al-Shabaab then Somaliland is linked to al-Shabaab. This is true whether Atom has carried out multiple successful attacks in Puntland or if he's never been there. You haven't explained how these details affect

I apologise If I did not correctly characterise your argument, but you seem to be saying that this article must refer to the PIA being US-trained because it is in one of the sources. You haven't explained what this piece of information tells the reader about al-Shabaab. This seemed pretty close to "no-one is allowed to remove anything that is mentioned in a source, however irrelevant it may be to the subject of an article" but if I have missed some subtlety then I'm very sorry.

As I explained to you, Misplaced Pages:Verifiability does not prevent verifiable information being removed from Misplaced Pages. You haven't disagreed but you continue to quote it in support of the same point.

Misplaced Pages:Content removal says that the five reasons you quote are valid. It doesn't say that no content can be removed under any other circumstances. In this case, I'm trying improve the article by tightening the focus, and making the prose more readable. --Copper button 19:19, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually, Atom is linked directly to both Al-Shabaab and Somaliland, and Somaliland is linked directly to the group by the ISSA. As clearly explained above, Misplaced Pages:Content removal -- Misplaced Pages's page exclusively devoted to the topic -- also lists the specific reasons that are recognized as valid for removing contect. It does this in its eponymous Reasons section; and unfortunately, none of the aforelisted reasons apply to the present text. You have twice now claimed that the reference to Puntland's intelligence agency being trained by US intelligence is irrelevant and alluded to some idiosyncratic personal interpretation of WP:VER rather than what WP:IRRELEVANT itself actually states is irrelevant material: "information that clearly has no relevance to the subject named in the article should be removed" such as "if in the article tiger you find one or more paragraphs about light bulbs, and there is no explanation from the text why this is there". Since Puntland's intelligence agency that is accusing Somaliland of involvement was trained by US intelligence and since this training is specifically cited in Garowe Online's editorial on Atom's and Al-Shabaab's ties with Somaliland as well as explained in the text per that policy, it is indeed relevant (unlike tigers and light bulbs, which are completely unrelated topics and which no sources associate in the first place). This is why it still always comes back down to censorship issues. Middayexpress (talk) 19:59, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

I didn't dispute that Atom was linked to al-Shabaab and Somaliland. You still haven't explained why specific details of Atom's activities in Puntland affect this conclusion.

As I have explained, Misplaced Pages:Content removal does not claim to provide an exhaustive list of reasons why content can be removed. You have not addressed this point. Equally my "idiosyncratic personal interpretation" is exactly in line with what Misplaced Pages:Verifiability says. You haven't been able to point out where the policy contradicts me.

I realise that the PIA is making accusations against Somaliland. The PIA is named in the article. Who trains the PIA, however, does not affect this, any more than who the chief is, the date it was founded or the location of its headquarters. There is no reason to include it. Your only argument still seems to be that because something is detailed in the source, it must be included in the article.

We seem to be going in circles. Do you have a suggestion for how we can move forwards? --Copper button 20:39, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, we are going in circles because you keep repeating the same invalid arguments that have just been debunked and keep making absurd strawmen arguments. For example, in reference to the Puntland intelligence agency, you state that "the date it was founded or the location of its headquarters" does not affect the PIA's accusations with regard to Somaliland, when no one said it did nor does the text even mention this material. I hope you realize that making misleading claims like that is a clear violation of WP:TALK. You also keep insisting that material is "irrelevant" or "unneeded" (interestingly, pretty much all of which has to do with Somaliland being accused of wrongdoing), but never quote any policy to back up what you are claiming. And there's a good reason for that: no Misplaced Pages policy or guideline page, including both WP:Content removal and WP:IRRELEVANT, support your reasons for removing sourced, reliable material, as clearly demonstrated above in my posts from yesterday. Here's a challenge: per WP:TALK's recommendation to deal with facts, actually quote the policy(ies) you claim support your idiosyncratic reasons for removing reliable, sourced material. WP:VER certainly does not, as it clearly states that "the threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth; that is, whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true" and that "anything that requires but lacks a source may be removed, and unsourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately". Since all of the material is referenced and to reliable sources (which is all that WP:BURDEN requires for its retention in the article), the forgoing unfortunately does not apply to it either. I'll be waiting with interest for those policy quotes that allegedly do for a change back up your consistent attempts to remove sourced content. Middayexpress (talk) 19:45, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

As I explained in my previous post, you still have not even addressed, much less debunked my arguments.

You must have misread my comments if you think I was making a strawman argument. I said that the training of the PIA is not relevant to al-Shabaab. I compared this to other inconsequential details (such as the date the PIA was founded) in order to illustrate my point. I'm glad you agree with me that these details should not be included in the article. What makes the PIA's training different? I have asked this several times and received no response.

Which policies support your arguments? I've already demonstrated that neither Misplaced Pages:Verifiability nor Misplaced Pages:Content removal contradict my version.

There are millions of ways to write an article while remaining within Misplaced Pages's policies. Neither your version nor mine break any policies at all. The difference is that I think mine is more readable and has a tighter focus. You haven't disagreed.

Since you haven't suggested a way to resolve the dispute I will list it at Misplaced Pages:Third opinion and provide a summary below. I will try to write this in a neutral and dispassionate way but if you think that I haven't accurately represented what you have argued then feel free to edit it. --Copper button 22:15, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I'm afraid that, with regard to the Puntland intelligence agency, your argument above pertaining ot"the date it was founded or the location of its headquarters" is a total strawmen for the simple fact that (as can be seen in the paragraph below) the date the PIA was founded and its headquarters were never mentioned. I am asking you politely to please stop misrepresenting what the text actually states; we cannot resolve this matter quickly if you keep doing this or threatening to remove sourced text. You have also never even come close to demonstrating that your edits are supported by WP:VER, WP:CRV or any other policy. In fact, you haven't quoted any policy that supports your edits, even after I specifically asked you to above per WP:TALK. Only I have done that, and in the process demonstrated that none of the sentences you deem irrelevant breach WP:IRRELEVANT. At any rate, I have contacted some admins about the paragraph in question, specifically querying as to whether or not the material is "irrelevant" as you claim or in any way unreliable. That should settle the matter once and for all. Middayexpress (talk) 20:47, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Somaliland summary

This is a dispute between User:Middayexpress and myself (User:Copper button) over how best to word some material relating to claims of links between Somali Islamist group al-Shabaab (the subject of this article) and Somaliland, an autonomous region of Somalia. The current article reads as follows (coming in mid-way through a paragraph):

In addition, Garowe Online reported in October that Mohamed Said Atom, an arms-smuggler believed to be allied with Al-Shabaab and who is on U.S. and U.N. security watch-lists, was hiding out in Somaliland after being pursued by the neighboring Puntland region's authorities for his role in targeted assassination attempts against Puntland officials as well as bomb plots. Several of Atom's followers were also reportedly receiving medical attention in the region, after having been wounded in a counter-terrorism raid in the Galgala hills by Puntland security personnel. According to Puntland government documents, the Somaliland region's Riyale government in 2006 both financed and offered military assistance to Atom's men as part of a campaign to destabilize the autonomous territory via proxy agents and to distract attention away from the Somaliland government's own attempts at occupying the disputed Sool province. The Puntland Intelligence Agency (PIA), a covert organization supported and trained by U.S. counter-terrorism agencies based in Djibouti, also indicated that over 70 salaried Somaliland soldiers had fought alongside Atom's militiamen during the Galgala operation, including one known Somaliland intelligence official who died in the ensuing battle. In January 2011, the Puntland government issued a press release accusing the incumbent Somaliland administration of providing a safe haven for Atom and of attempting to revive remnants of his militia. The Somaliland authorities, which had earlier described Atom as a "terrorist", strenuously denied all of the charges, dismissing them as "baseless" and intended to divert attention away from Puntland's attempt to establish what it described as a "large army". In January 2011, the Hargeisa-based broadsheet Haatuf also published an interview wherein a representative of Atom's denied that his group was affiliated with Al-Shabaab and requested military assistance from the Somaliland administration.

I think that this version contains irrelevant details, is over-long and poorly written. After long attempts to reach a compromise, I proposed the following, which I thought captured all the important information in a more readable way:

In January 2011, Puntland accused Somaliland of providing a safe haven for Mohamed Said Atom, an arms smuggler believed to be allied with al-Shabaab. The Somaliland authorities strenuously denied the charges, claiming that they were a smokescreen to divert attention from Puntland's own activities.

Atom and his followers were reportedly hiding out and receiving medical attention in Somaliland after being pursued by Puntland forces in late 2010. The Puntland Intelligence Agency also claimed that over 70 salaried Somaliland soldiers had fought alongside Atom's militiamen, including one known Somaliland intelligence official who died in the ensuing battle. In January Atom's representative requested military assistance from Somaliland, while denying that he was linked to al-Shabaab.

Puntland also claimed that Somaliland had offered financial and military assistance to Atom in 2006 to destabilize Puntland as part of an ongoing territorial dispute.

User:Middayexpress objects to this version, feeling that it is important that the article includes the fact that the Puntland Intelligence Agency is trained by the US and some specific details regarding Atom's activities in Puntland. He/she also did not like me characterising "the Somaliland government's own attempts at occupying the disputed Sool province" as a "territorial dispute". He/she feels that my version violates Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, Misplaced Pages:Content removal and Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not#Misplaced Pages is not censored.

I obviously disagree with all of this, but I won't go further into argument and counter-argument here. The last few screens of text in the main section contain the relevant discussion. Any further opinions are most welcome. --Copper button 22:27, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

You have already expressed your belief that the paragraph is overly long and contains some details you believe to be irrelevant. However, you have been unable to prove that this is in fact the case, much less that actual Misplaced Pages policy supports these claims. That heavily censored re-write above and its many omissions of sourced material were also already critiqued point-by-point, so there's no point in rehashing it here. It omits key details, such as the fact that Puntland's intelligence agency that accused Somaliland troops of fighting alongside Atom's men is actually trained by U.S. intelligence. You also seriously understated why Puntland believes Somaliland is backing the rebels in the fist place: as part of a campaign to destabilize the autonomous territory via proxy agents and to distract attention away from the Somaliland government's own attempts at occupying the disputed Sool province, not simply "as part of an ongoing territorial dispute". That's not even including the fact that your paragraph completely omits just what exactly Atom is accused of having done in Puntland: he is wanted for targeted assassination attempts against Puntland officials as well as bomb plots. It also leaves out the key fact that Atom's group actually directly requested military support from the Somaliland administration. Whatever the case, I have contacted some admins about the paragraph in question, querying specifically as to whether or not the material is admissible. That should go a long way towards settling the matter. Middayexpress (talk) 20:47, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, you're dealing with a user who's been blocked for edit warring about 3 or 4 times, and I should point out that he's quite persistent. The current version is badly written, and contains several POINTy phrasings typical of this particular author. One obvious redlight: "the Somaliland region's Riyale government" implies that said government is the government of the "Somaliland region", which is not the case. The Riyale government is the government of the Republic of Somaliland, so that's one thing that needs changing. Nightw 11:36, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

I was wondering when one of the old pro-secessionist Somaliland accounts would show up, and sure enough, one has. FYI, there is no edit war going on, just talk page discussions; so attempting to score cheap points by resorting to ad hominem is unfortunately an epic fail. It is also blatantly untrue that the paragraph above tries to pass off the Riyale administration as the current government of Somaliland since the text clearly refers to the "the Somaliland region's Riyale government in 2006" -- which indeed was the government of the Somaliland region at the time, right up until just a few months ago. Middayexpress (talk) 20:47, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Clan & ethnic makeup

It is common knowledge that, while nominally "trans-clan", the clan and ethnic makeup of the Al-Shabaab group of militants mostly consists of Rahanweyn/Sab foot soldiers from the south (their main area of inhabitation), and northern Somali (primarily Isaaq) and foreign commanders. This dichotomy is actually a large part of the reason behind Al-Shabaab's recent internal struggles. Examples:

• "Rahanweyn elders have long demanded that Robow explain why the bulk of al-Shabab fighters are from their clan but most of the group's influential positions are filled by northerners"
• "there are questions within al-Shabaab regarding financial improprieties and the appointment of members of Godane's northern Isaaq clan to key positions within the movement"
• "Powerful sources also confirm that most of the injured or died fighters in this offensive were of Digil & Mirifle Clan (a.k.a Rahanwein), which represents more than 60-70 percent of Al'shabaab's overall combat power, although they do not receive adequate attention. The Clan's elders asked Sheikh Roobow to explain why their tribes men are in the front lines while most of the senior positions are dominated by people from north of Somalia(Somaliland), and why proper medial treatment is not given to their tribes men when they sustain injuries."
• "Shabaab's top leadership positions are dominated by foreign commanders, according to an intelligence assessment by the African Union Mission for Somalia. The foreign Shabaab commanders have trained in al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan or Pakistan, and many have entered Somalia over the past year to assume top leadership roles in Shabaab. The al Qaeda commanders come from Kenya, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Sudan, and the United States."

Middayexpress (talk) 21:56, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

As is clear, there are different factions in al-Shabaab, while Godane's faction is said to be Isaaq dominated, just a brief look at the article itself shows that only few of al-Shabaab's prominent commanders are Isaaq themselfes. Also the source on the ethnic breakdown of the group shows that although the Rahanweyn are the largest group, it's nowhere near a situation where they comprise of a majority of HSM's fighting force and are meanwhile led by a bunch of northerners. It also shows that the movement is pretty much as trans-clan as it claims to be. Kermanshahi (talk) 22:51, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

The quotes above don't refer to factions. They refer to all of Al-Shabaab. The Rahanweyn constitute the overwhelming majority of Al-Shabaab's foot-soliders. Even that article you linked to states this ("Quoting some of Al-Shabaab militant officials, the report says the biggest number of Al-Shabaab militias is from Digil and Mirifle clans of Rahanwein tribe totaling 4,230 fighters as indicated in the list of the clans and their figure"), which is why the Rahanweyn elders are unamused by their clan's lack of representation at the leadership levels. At any rate, this is great new information to add the infobox i.e. each clan's representation. That link, however, does not dispute or indeed even mention the basic fact that northern Somalis clans (mainly the Isaaq) and foreigners constitute the bulk of the commanders. That part therefore should be restored. Middayexpress (talk) 23:43, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

1. ^ Somalia: Al Shabaab rebel Atom 'hiding in Somaliland': Report
2. ^ Somalia: '70 Somaliland soldiers fought alongside Al Shabaab in Galgala': Puntland
3. Somalia: Somaliland is becoming Africa's 'terrorism secret'
4. Somalia: Puntland is Deeply Concerned About Somaliland’s Growing Ties to Al Shabaab
5. ^ Somalia: Haatuf newspaper reports Somaliland link with Al Shabaab
6. Somaliland says Shabaab ties claim a smokescreen

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