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Revision as of 12:40, 28 February 2011 editChesdovi (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users22,098 edits →"Deterioration in the security situation"← Previous edit Revision as of 13:02, 28 February 2011 edit undoAsad112 (talk | contribs)Rollbackers1,232 edits →"Deterioration in the security situation"Next edit →
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::Thanks, not only have I read the article, I've been to the site. If the occupying force builds a wall, even 1x1 meters, it is still considered a land grab by many people, as they don't have the right to wall anything which does not belong to them. Therefore, rather to say speak about the so called "security" situation, or the so called "apartheid" it is better to leave it as the situation stands. -] (]) 12:11, 28 February 2011 (UTC) ::Thanks, not only have I read the article, I've been to the site. If the occupying force builds a wall, even 1x1 meters, it is still considered a land grab by many people, as they don't have the right to wall anything which does not belong to them. Therefore, rather to say speak about the so called "security" situation, or the so called "apartheid" it is better to leave it as the situation stands. -] (]) 12:11, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
:::The occupying power is actually obliged to safeguard historical monuments. The tomb was not turned into a civilian settlement. The Oslo accords gave Israel a joint right to military presence therein. Had the fortification not been built, the tomb would have been destroyed by arson attacks, as we saw with Joseph's tomb. The result may have been consolidation of the site as an Israeli enclave, but the cause was the attacks against it, (since Israeli soldiers were stationed there.) The site had been held by Israel for 30 years before it was fortified as a military post. And that was certainly due to the deterioration of the security situation. ] (]) 12:40, 28 February 2011 (UTC) :::The occupying power is actually obliged to safeguard historical monuments. The tomb was not turned into a civilian settlement. The Oslo accords gave Israel a joint right to military presence therein. Had the fortification not been built, the tomb would have been destroyed by arson attacks, as we saw with Joseph's tomb. The result may have been consolidation of the site as an Israeli enclave, but the cause was the attacks against it, (since Israeli soldiers were stationed there.) The site had been held by Israel for 30 years before it was fortified as a military post. And that was certainly due to the deterioration of the security situation. ] (]) 12:40, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
::::That is one opinion, the other is that local residents are trying to prevent the occupying power from stealing its land and appropriating their holy sites. Thusly, not taking your side, or the side I just presented, the statement is fine as it is. -] (]) 13:01, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

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Reliability of sources

Given source says: "In March 1997, around 500 Arab students marched on the site hurling firebombs and stones." This is correct report of what the book says regarding March 20. By contrast, Jerusalem Post on March 21 says "several dozen Palestinian youths hurled rocks at soldiers guarding Rachel's Tomb outside Bethlehem. ... In Bethlehem, trouble resumed after nightfall, as four firebombs lit up the new fortress style-wall protecting Rachel's Tomb, but caused no damage." There is quite a difference between 500 and several dozen. Looking at the book, its polemic nature is evident. Zero 01:16, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Taken out "500" claim. Chesdovi (talk) 13:31, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Location

Its not in Israel, its in the West bank. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:44, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

The West Bank is Israeli land that is currently being occupied by Muslim invaders. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Termswagon2 (talk • contribs) 22:48, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

The location is in the west bank, not Jerusalem. See this source: --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:42, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

The tomb, located in Bethlehem, has been "annexed" to Jerusalem by Israel. Chesdovi (talk) 16:24, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Whatever "annexation" Israel does in the west bank has no validity, you know this. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:29, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Valid or not, its municipal and physical location is in Jerusalem. Chesdovi (talk) 16:33, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
No it isn't. Its an occupation of land in the West bank. You can ad: "Israeli occupied West bank" if you want. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:34, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
If we are going to use that field for its presumed political location rather than its de-facto location, surely "UN Corpus sepataum" is more accurate? Chesdovi (talk) 16:40, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Its de facto location is that its in the west bank occupied by Israel, it is not in Jerusalem or in Israel. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:43, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
It was in the WB till a few years ago, when it was included behind the wall and is now considered to be part of Jerusalem. Chesdovi (talk) 16:53, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
This is located in what the world, almost without exception, considers to be Palestinian territory. It is a minority view it is in Israel and as such is a NPOV violation for us to say, as a fact and with a flag, that it is in Israel. nableezy - 17:52, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
The location field should not show the where the world "considers" it, but the de-facto sovreign nation which holds control over that territory. Chesdovi (talk) 17:54, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
The control is an occupation, its not part of Israel or Jerusalem. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:57, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Change the word "consider" with "recognizes". Israel occupies this territory, it is not in Israel and to say that it is in Israel is a NPOV violation as you are saying in the narrative voice something that the overwhelming majority of sources say is not true. nableezy - 17:59, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
If the Israeli flag flies above the tomb, its fair for it to be displayed in the infobox. It is in the WB. It is in J. And in I. Chesdovi (talk) 18:01, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Israeli flag can not be for this place in the Palestinian territories. Thats not a neutral point of view. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:26, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Just adding to Chesdovi, it is considered "Area C." That means it is under full Israeli security and civilian administration. Pursuant to the Oslo Accords, the PLO recognizes this designation so it is fair to display the Israeli flag.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 18:31, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
It being in Area C does not mean it is in Israel. All Area C means is the territory is under Israeli control, it does not mean, and no sources say it means, that the territory is Israeli in any meaning other than Israeli occupied. Neither the PLO nor any other state recognizes that this territory is anything other than Palestinian territory. nableezy - 18:35, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

If you insist on including "Israel" as the location because a single state says it is in Israel then you also need to include that it is recognized as being in the Palestinian territories. As the flag of Israel was returned, I have added the Palestinian flag and the fact that it is recognized as being in the Palestinian territories. I would rather not have to have articles like these overly-politicized, but West Bank with no flag was apparently no good enough for some of the people here who felt it important to include the extreme minority position that this is in Israel. nableezy - 18:40, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

It is not recognised as I or P land. But there are places under full PA control, and they can display the PA flag. Areas under full Israeli control can display the Israel flag. Thats why Joseph's tomb is described as being in the PA (I will add the flag) as is Ancient synagogue (Eshtemoa). Chesdovi (talk) 22:11, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
The West bank is internatioanlly recognized as Palestinian land. We can therefor not have the Israeli flag for any part of this area. The same way we can not have the Palestinian flag for an area in Israel. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:30, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Is West Jerusalem internatioanlly recognized as Israeli? Chesdovi (talk) 23:05, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
By most countries, the UK being a notable exception. The edit you just made is garbage and as I still respect you I kindly request you self-revert. The only state in the world that says this is in Israel is Israel. Every other state, the UN, and countless NGOs all say it is in the occupied Palestinian territories. If you want to say that it is "de facto" in Israel you need to also include that it is recognized as within the Palestinian territories. nableezy - 00:20, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
Here is a source giving the location as "Bethlehem, Palestinian Authority". Here is a source saying that Rachel's Tomb was to be treated within "Area B" in the Oslo Accords with a special status and that Israel disregarded that agreement and treated it as "Area C", but that it is not even "Area C". Whether or not it is "Area C" is irrelevant anyway; A, B, C, all of the West Bank is occupied Palestinian territory. That Israel has enclosed portions of occupied territory within a wall does not make this place in Israel. That Israel makes up a "Jerusalem envelope" does not mean this place is in Jerusalem. And just because Israel says all of Jerusalem, and apparently its "envelope", is in Israel does not mean it is in Israel. nableezy - 03:42, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Have the municipal boundaries of Jerusalem been extended to encompass Rachel's Tomb? I mean officially extended. Source? Zero 02:10, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

I have found that the cabinet approved to annex the tomb to Jerusalem in 2003 Chesdovi (talk) 10:55, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
I believe the answer to my question is "no", in which case the tomb is not even in Israel according to Israel's own reckoning. Its location in the West Bank is clear in a ruling of the High Court of Israel, see . Note that the court applied the law of belligerent occupation and not the domestic law of Israel. In summary, it is not in Israel as an undisputed fact. Zero 07:35, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
Is West Jerusalem internationally recognized as Israeli? No. Is RT internationally recognized as PT? No. Both are located within the CS, a neutral zone. The flag displayed should be the one affiliated to the party which excersises control over the site. Chesdovi (talk) 10:55, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Chesdovi, your source does not even say it is in Jerusalem. You have repeatedly placed a falsehood in this article, and this time you replaced a solid source with another source that does not even support what you have placed in the article. That was also your 4th revert. Self-revert. nableezy - 13:30, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Your source was not "solid". It was false. You know yourself as attested to in Strickerts book, that the tomb was originally in Area B, and your source places it only in Area "A". Also, that book was from 2002, a year before it was annexed. My source says it was annexed? Obviously to Jerusalem as shown above, (and here again). Chesdovi (talk) 15:00, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
Your source does not say it was annexed, your source does not say it is in Jerusalem, your source does not say it is in Israel. Last chance, self-revert or I'll need to ask for administrative help. nableezy - 15:18, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
“Which would de facto annex Rachel’s’ tomb into Jerusalem. The cabinet approved the change. What's not clear Nab? Chesdovi (talk) 16:02, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
Are you really this dense? The book you are citing is saying that Israel's separating this site from the rest of the occupied territories with its wall would "de-facto annex" the site, it does not say that it is in Israel much less that it is in Jerusalem. As you have declined to self-revert I will be going to an admin board. nableezy - 16:04, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
Annex it to what. It has been annexed to Jerusalem. This may not be recognised, but it is reality:
    • Haareatz article cited in my source: “"IDF Plan Puts Rachel's Tomb Inside Jerusalem's New Security Borders," &” Rachel's Tomb to Be Annexed — De Facto ...”
    • "Separately in the West Bank, Palestinian officials said the Israeli Army had distributed notices to families in northern Bethlehem that the land there would be annexed to Jerusalem. There was no immediate response from the Israeli Army.” February 17, 2003 New York Times
    • "Rachel's Tomb was no longer to be considered part of Bethlehem but was being annexed to Jerusalem. The transition was complete from Area A to Area B, and now to Area C”. page 135.
    • "We marched peacefully and sat near Rachel's Tomb ". Chesdovi (talk) 16:11, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
What is "reality" is that this site is located in occupied Palestinian territory and that you insist on only including extreme minority views on this topic and have no problem removing what is the majority viewpoint. nableezy - 16:22, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
See. I provide the sources you so require. And you just chnage the subject. I think this is the third time you have ignored my sources. Chesdovi (talk) 16:39, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
No, you, as you apparently do often, misrepresent your own sources. Area C is occupied Palestinian territory, an administrative zone of the West Bank; if your source says it is in Area C it is in the West Bank, not Israel. There are no Israeli checkpoints in Israel. If your source says there is an Israeli checkpoint there it is not in Israel. Even if Israel were to declare this territory annexed that would not make it in Israel. East Jerusalem is not Israel. The Golan is not in Israel. An occupying power cannot annex occupied territory. This is a well-established fact. You have repeatedly misrepresented both the your own sources and the facts in this article. nableezy - 16:46, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
The sources say it has been annexed. Whether or not this is seen as a legal move by the IC is a not relevant here. The infobox should show where it is located. In 2002 it was in the CS/WB/OPT/Area B, now it is in annexed Israeli WB territory. Whether or not this move is valid is of no concern when it comes to then infobox icon which shows where it is politically and physically located. Not what it’s claimed location is. How can we have the PA flag when it does not exercise control over the location. That is misleading. Leave the political descriptions for the main article. Chesdovi (talk) 17:18, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
Israel building a wall around this place does not magically mean it is not in the Palestinian territories. We have the Palestinian flag (not a PA flag) for a site in the Palestinian territories. nableezy - 17:30, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

I will delete the location while this is dispute. Clearly there is no consensus establish to change location to say "Bethlehem, West Bank" with Palestinian flag. I disagree to this, it has been annex to Jerusalem by Israel. Several other editor agree here. So I will delete that stuff no until we can reach agreement. LibiBamizrach (talk) 18:59, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

  • Technical legalities aside, Israel is unquestionably the de facto governing entity over the Tomb. Thus, any information that does not make this clear to the reader does a disservice to the reader. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:47, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
And does any information that does not make clear that this is located in the occupied Palestinian territory, as it unquestionably is, do a disservice to the reader? nableezy - 20:53, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
not as much. readers are most likely more interested in who controls the area, then who perhaps should control the area.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:58, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
Nobody said who "should" control the area. The question is "where" is this place. You dont think that is important? Interesting. nableezy - 21:00, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
where it is depends on what perspective you are using. To the neutral reader its the de facto governing entity that decides where something is, not the de jure governing entity. If a reader is going to Cyprus for vacation, and wants some information about Cyprus, the reader does not care if as much if Turkey is the legal governing entity or Greece (or whoever is fighting with whoever). The reader wants to know who controls the area. The reader wants to know what type of visa is needed, what type of cell phone to get. This depends on the de facto governing entity, not the de jure governing entity. That's how the reader decides "where" something is. This is not to say that we should hide from the reader the issues surrounding the "legality" of the controlling power. However this information should be secondary to the more important information about who controls the area. And to the neutral or uninterested reader, who controls the area defines "where" it is. Messing up the priorities of the readers because of a pov-push is not what we do here. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:14, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
No, the location does not depend on "perspective", it depends on sources. Sources say this is located in the Palestinian territories in the occupied West Bank east of the Green Line. None of those things are disputable. Misplaced Pages is not a travel guide, it is an encyclopedia. If we have an ignorant reader it is not our job to allow that reader to maintain their ignorance, what we should do is educate that reader. nableezy - 21:25, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
What the sources say is an irrelavant straw man argument. Of course there are sources that say "Palestine" is the legal governing entity over the area. Just like there are sources that say Israel is the governing entity of the area. It is not a question of sourcing, but a question of providing the reader with the information the reader wants in a neutral manner. Wikpedia is not a travel guide, but it is also not a legal scholarly text book. Again, the reader's primary interest is who controls the area. That's how the average reader decides "where" it is.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:39, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
Ah, the tried and true tactic of choice for the POV-push. The sources are "irrelevant". I think I found a quote to add to my userpage. I thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for demonstrating just how little you care about the policies of this website. It is refreshing to see a user come out and say he does not care what the sources say, that what matters is what he wants. nableezy - 21:42, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
You're creating a straw man argument and that's unfair. The sources are irrelevant because thats not the locus of the dispute. There is no question what the sources say. Its a question of content and which sourced content should be primary and which sourced content should be secondary. Claiming that i am a "pov-pusher" because i say the sources are "irrelevant" is not reflective of the conversation we are having. Please don't do that. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:48, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
That approaches being a lie. Pointing to what the sources say is the location of this site in a dispute on what the location of this site is cannot be called a straw man. Of course the sources are relevant, they are the only thing that matters. The dispute here is what is the location of this site. If the sources say it is in occupied Palestinian territory in Bethlehem in the West Bank that is what matters. nableezy - 21:52, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
the straw man is your claim that i think is sources are irrelevant when they do not conform with my POV. thats the lie. as any objective reader will see from the conversation above, how you made me repeat the same thing over and over, is that the issue is not sourcing but what type of sourced content should be primary and what type of sourced content should be secondary. It is my position that the reader defines location and "where" by the governing entity, not any other entity. The fact that Israel controls the area is sourced just like its sourced somewhere that "Palestine" is its legal entity. You can disagree with my position and call is idiocy if you like, but please cease implying that i dont care about sourcing. Just stop with the games. Please.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 22:05, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
I didnt make that argument, so apparently it is not a straw man. Your "position" on where something is ignores what the sources say where that thing is. You are the one that said "What the sources say is an irrelavant straw man argument (sic)". Complaining that I said you said the sources are irrelevant is asinine. nableezy - 22:11, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
I'm done here. I made my point. Let the reader decide which one of us is guilty of WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT and straw man arguments and which one of is trying to have a good faith discussion.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 22:23, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
I've reverted it to nableezy's version. There's no reason that this would be considered as part of Israel. It even lacks the (quasi-) annexation of EJ and GH. The de facto ruler does not decide a place's location. If you want to put in "Controlled by Israel" below the location in the info box I think that makes sense but putting the location as in Israel is ridiculous. Until Israel legally annexes it, Rachel's Tomb isn't in Israel. (please direct all accusations of sockpuppetry/Anti-Semitism/vampirism to my talk page) Sol (talk) 01:13, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
Sol Goldstone, it doesn't matter if Israel declares an "annexation", because whatever "annexation" Israel does has no valid or legal effect. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:30, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
I don't mean a declared annexation that violates the GC/Vienna Convention/Code of Hammurabi that no one accepts, a la Golan Heights, but a legitimate and valid annexation resulting from final status negotiations. Sol (talk) 01:20, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to refer everyone back to the Israeli court case posted by Zero which nicely answers the main question. Sol (talk) 18:26, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

There has never been any agreement to use the Israeli map for this place in the West bank, and there has never been any agreement to say that Israel owns the territory, therefor the infobox should be removed until consensus can be established. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:28, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Now this infobox has a new field "management" that can be used to present the fact that the Israeli Ministry of Religious Affairs runs the site. That leaves the "location" field, which is "Bethlehem municipality, West Bank" according to everyone including the High Court of Israel. There could be two flags or there could be none; I prefer none so that the box is a-political. Zero 21:43, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Why did you revert flag icon? What's the harm? Unless there's some other nefarious purpose behind its removal.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 22:26, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
I stated the purpose. Do you object to the Palestinian flag icon appearing beside the location? Zero 22:38, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
I would object because 1)Palestine is not recognized as a state. 2)Palestine has no defined borders. 3)The area in question is not under PA control. 4)Under Oslo, the parties mutually agreed that the area would be under exclusive Israeli control 5)Historically, the tomb has always been a place of Jewish worship.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 22:53, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Just as an aside, you'll notice that I didn't touch the location part of your edit despit my objection to it. I'm trying to work with you. Will you please try to work with me?--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 23:00, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Just a comment: MOS:FLAG could be helpful. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 23:27, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
No flag with the inclusion of the location and management info sounds reasonable. Sol (talk) 00:05, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Location has been the subject of bitter dispute as you are aware. I have no interest in fighting on this issue and have given in, white flag if you may. However, I'm asking you to work with me on a minor point. I've given in to you. Can't you reciprocate? Or is "no prisoner" mentality.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 00:15, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
That's what I thought we are doing. You were objecting to the Palestinian flag and I was suggesting a compromise. It's a compromise that gives too much ground to spurious arguments but it's a compromise. Sol (talk) 01:20, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
JG, regarding your five points: (1) Israel has never asserted sovereignty at this place; (2) Much of Israel's borders are also undefined; (3) True, which is why I put in the "management" field; (4) Under Oslo there was an agreement for Israeli control of the tomb itself, not Israeli sovereignty. The maps show it in Area A. ; (5) It was also a place sacred to Muslims. Zero 01:56, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the UNESCO executive board adopted five rulings just over a week ago. Amongst them was the following:

• The Palestinian sites of al-Haram al-Ibrahimi/Tomb of the Patriarchs in al-Khalil/Hebron and the Bilal bin Rabah Mosque/Rachel’s Tomb in Bethlehem: the Board voted 44 to one (12 abstentions) to reaffirm that the two sites are an integral part of the occupied Palestinian Territories and that any unilateral action by the Israeli authorities is to be considered a violation of international law, the UNESCO Conventions and the United Nations and Security Council resolutions.

- G E Enn (talk) 02:37, 30 October 2010 (UTC) In Moslem Eyes there are NO Jewish holy sites any where in the Holy Land once known as Judea and Israel. Everything is Moslem. Thats nice in the Moslem world of make believe there are no Jewish Holy Sites (Judaism was around thousands of years before Mohammed was born) Of course the burial places of the Jewish forefathers and matriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Sarah, Rebecca, Leah and RACHEL are Jewish holy sites. ANd frankly there is nothing a non-Jew can do to change that. Israel is in charge of these sites as if Israel was not the Arabs would destroy the sites and paint them green as they have done to Joseph's Tomb just a few years ago in Nablus. Benshlomo (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:07, 31 October 2010 (UTC).

84.228.15.167, this is an area in the Palestinian territories, you did not explain why you replaced the map of the Palestinian territories which it is part of, with an unaffiliated map which it is not part of. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:42, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Time to remove the map altogether if it is causing disagreement and confusion?Cptnono (talk) 15:58, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Bilal ibn Rabah Mosque

Do we have any source before 1996 about this name? The sources I read think not and even have the Arabs referring to this as Rachel's Tomb. --Shuki (talk) 00:28, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I was wondering the same thing. I checked and can not find a single source that uses this name prior to 1996--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 00:48, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
The older sources I've dug up either leave it unnamed or call it some vartiona on "al-Ibrahmimi Mosque". Any Muslim historical scholars in the house? Sol (talk) 01:29, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
Sol, the name al-Ibrahmimi Mosque refers to the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron not Rachel's tomb.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 02:10, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
Holy God, I'm dumb as a rock. . . .let's not tell anyone about this. I got confused with another Arabic-y named mosque I'd found. I'll dig up the other name. Sol (talk) 02:29, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
Nah Sol, I think you're pretty smart. We all have these senior moments ;)--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 03:00, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
You take that back right now, JG! How are we supposed to edit war with all of this good-will and kindness?! :P (Thanks) I have no idea what I was on about, chasing down a lead about Rachel's Tomb and the Tomb of the Patriarch's being related in some Muslim school of thought. Either way, can't find the name any earlier! Sol (talk) 04:41, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

The place has been called the tomb of Rachel by Muslims for many centuries and is still called that by Muslims today. I don't know of any Islamic authority who denies the connection to Rachel, which is not surprising since Muslims revere Rachel very much. There has been a Muslim graveyard there since the 15th century and it became a popular "weli" (place for Muslim funerals). Later there was a mihrab for praying; it still exists but is plastered over. Whether it was an actual mosque is less certain and it is possible that was a recent political invention. Similarly the name "Bilal ibn Rabah" might be a new association. I've asked an expert and he didn't know when it first appeared. It is an error to say that anyone tried to "rename" the place as Bilal ibn Rabah Mosque, as nobody denies the Rachel connection. A more correct description is that it is now claimed that the part of the structure used for Islamic ceremonies (which existed as a historical fact) was in fact a mosque dedicated to Bilal ibn Rabah (which is historically doubtful). The Palestinian News Agency starting about 1997 used expressions like ""Rachel's Tomb inside Bilal bin Rabah Mosque", "Rachel's Tomb and Bilal bin Rabah Mosque" and "Rachel's Tomb near Bilal bin Rabah Mosque", showing that they were not competing names but rather separate functions. Bethlehem University just published a book called Rachel's Tomb, showing that there isn't any denial of the Rachel connection from Christian Palestinians either. Zero 05:41, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

This might be helpful. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 10:40, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
Unreliable advocacy website. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:56, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
First of all, there are some good RS listed as references there, which I thought would be useful. Also, I think Shragai could be considered an expert on this subject.
But thank you for dismissing the whole thing out of hand. At this point I expect no less. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 11:09, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
Here is a better source (same author). I eagerly await to hear some excuses as to why this can't be used. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:40, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Function as a mosque

That the tomb has been used by Muslims for prayer cannot be denied. It must be noted however that the site lacks the usual trappings of a typical mosque: a minaret, minbar. The mihrab, installed by a Jew, dates from 1841. If mere prayer at a site confers upon a space the definition of a "house of worship", then the site has also functioned as a church and synagogue. The site is ignored in early Muslim pilgrim accounts. Early Jewish accounts do not call the site a mosque, yet do call the Tomb of Nathan a mosque. It would seem the earliest source calling the place a "mosque" is from Russian deacon Zosimos in 1421, but on what was this based? From seeing a passing Muslim performing salat at the site? No minarets were added as they were at the Machpela Cave, David’s Tomb, etc. Some sources indicate that Montefiore built the 1841 vestibule solely for Muslim use, according to one "to conciliate Moslem susceptibility." But it is more probable that the vestible was for shelter and a niche was added for Mulsim who wished to pray therein. It would further seem from its remote location adjacent to a cemetery, that it chiefly served as a place for pre-burial rites and funeral chapel, rather than a purpose built house of worship. This is also attested to the inscrptions on the gates which refer to the cemetery. Veneration and worship at the site was offered by members of all faiths and I cannot find evidence that shows the tomb served as a "mosque" more than it did as a place of worship for other religions.

  • A league further on we entered the plain of Rama, where you meet with Rachel's tomb. It is a square edifice, surmounted with a small dome. It enjoys privileges of a mosque, for the Turks, as well as the Arabs, honor the families of the patriarchs. (Monthly magazine and British register, 1796)
  • Next cam Rachel's tomb, a modern mosque. (Sinai and Palestine: In Connection with Their History, 1856)
  • Finally, in 1841, Montefiore, the English millionaire, obtained for the Jews the key of the Qoubbet Rahil, and added a mean, square vestibule with a mihrab, which since then has served as a place of prayer for the Mussulmans. (Guide to the Holy Land, 1923)
  • It consists of an oblong building with an arched entrance on the N., and divided into two rooms, the E. being a vestibule and place of Mohammedan worship, containing a prayer-niche or "mihrab" indicating the direction of Mecca, and the W. chamber connected with the other by a door. (American colony guide-book to Jerusalem and environs, 1925)
  • A difference arose between Moslem and Jewish authorities in regard to the placing of benches for aged pilgrims and children by the Jewish beadle in the antechamber to Rachel’s Tomb, and the proposal of the Moslems to effect certain alterations to the ante-chamber. The shrine was restored some 90 years ago by Sir Moses Montefiore, and the Jews have held the keys during that period. It is stated that the ante-chamber was built at the same time as a special place of prayer for Moslems. It was ruled in 1921 that repairs should be undertaken by Government for the time being, Jewish rights to the shrine and Moslem rights to the ante-chamber being recognized. Applying this ruling to the existing dispute, the Government caused the Jews to cease from whitewashing the antechamber and placing benches in it and the Moslems to respect the Jewish right of passage through it to the shrine, and to refrain from any altering or repairing of their portion of the building. (Colonial, 1935)
  • In 1841 the English Jewish pilgrim Sir Moses Montefiore bought the site, made repairs, and added a vestibule, which included a prayer niche, a mihrab, facing Mecca for Muslim use. (Pilgrimage: from the Ganges to Graceland : an encyclopedia, 1965)
  • Sir Moses Montefiore secured the key of the Tomb for the use of the Jews and added a square vestibule with a mihrab, or praying place, for Moslems. (Guide to the West Bank of Jordan, 1965)
  • The tomb was included among the Tombs of the Prophets and identified with a signboard. Sir Moses Montefiore, at the time of its restoration especially assigned the antechamber to the Muslims for prayer. Both Jews and Muslims continued to pray there, happily together. In 1912, the Ottoman government allowed the Jews to repair the tomb. After the establishment of the mandatory government, the Jews whitewashed the whole shrine, but when in 1921 the chief rabbinate applied for permission to carry out further repairs, certain Muslims protested. The mandatory government decided to carry out the repairs itself, but was prevented by a Jewish protest. In 1925, however, the government went ahead with essential repairs to the exterior, but the Jews still witheld the keys to the interior. From 1948 the tomb was within Jordanian territory and Jewish access was impracticable. (Holy places: Jewish, Christian, and Muslim monuments in the Holy Land, 1969)
  • The tomb you now see was walled up until 1841, when Sir Moses Montefiore secured permission from the Turkish authorities for Jews to pray here. He also built a small vestibule for Moslems. (Bazak Israel guide, 1971)
  • ln 1788 the arches were blocked to form a closed chamber, then in 1841 Sir Moses Montefiore repaired the building and added a vestibule with a mihrab, or south-pointing prayer niche, for Moslem worship. (This is Israel: pictorial guide & souvenir, 1993)
  • In 1841 the tomb was acquired by Sir Moses Montefiore, who added a vaulted vestibule on the east for the Muslims to pray in. ( The Churches of the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem, 1998)
  • It consists of an open antechamber and a two-roomed shrine under a cupola containing a sarcophagus. The building lies within a Moslem cemetery, for which it serves as a place of prayer. (Documents on Jerusalem, 2007)
  • "The actual renovations centred on the completion of a vestibule adjacent to the tomb itself. This second room was now enclosed with an open, arched entranceway. A mihrab was added in the south wall for Muslim who wished to pray.
  • Formerly a stone pyramid covered the tomb, but the site was purchased in 1841 by Sir Moses Montefiore who had it restored and decorated with a cupola and a vestibule.
  • When Dr Robinson passed, this sepulcher of Rachel was fast falling into decay. Its restoration, I was informed, was the work of Sir Moses Montefiore on his first visit to Palestine. The building consists of two apartments, viz. an ante-chamber without a door; and an inner one containing the sepulcher, secured by an iron door, which, on this and many subsequent visits, I always found locked.
  • In 1841, Sir M. Montefiore purchased the grounds and monument for the Jewish community, added an adjoining prayer vestibule, and reconditioned the entire structure with its white dome and quiet reception or prayer room. (The Holy Land, 1977)
Interesting stuff but I'm not sure what you are proposing. Sol (talk) 20:38, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

19th-century accounts

On our way we met with companies of poor Jews, who having poured out their hearts in prayer at Rachel’s Tomb, in behalf of their suffering brethren in secular countries… They looked the picture of misery, which considerably damped my buoyant feelings at the time. (Moses Margoliouth, 1850)

On the way to the right, we branch off to the road to visit the Tomb of Rachel, a round, solid building of stone, surrounded by substantial stone-domed square case; the interior passage between the Tomb and the case is just wide enough to allow one to pass another; one lamp only relives the darkness; many Jews were there praying, standing up – this is their posture for prayer. (William Wyndham Malet, 1867)

Flag

The Israeli Ministry of Religious Affairs is a ministry, not a location, so a flag is inappropriate.

The West bank on the other hand is a location, part of the Palestinian territories, so I suggest we ad the Palestinian flag after "West bank" in the infobox.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:53, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

"Do not emphasize nationality without good reason" is part of MOS:FLAG. I think deemphasizing nationality is just as wrong. Don;t poke buttons if we don't have to. The flags are not really needed and although nationalism might be fun, it really doesn't assist the reader hin this instance. And I just found this one "Avoid flag icons in infoboxes". "they are unnecessarily distracting and give undue prominence to one field among many." on top of POV. So should I start a centralized discussion for the whole topic area or can I stop this undue prominence issue that has been causing drama in multiple articles?Cptnono (talk) 03:28, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

The tomb is in Jerusalem

The infobox currently states: "Location Bethlehem municipality, West Bank." This is false. The tomb is in Jerusalem. Chesdovi (talk) 15:13, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

The tomb is in the West Bank, Bethlehem, see this reliable BBC source . --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:35, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
That 23 February 2010 report saying the tomb is "in Bethlehem" is factually incorrect. All areas behind the wall in the vicinity of Jerusalem are now considered part of Jerusalem. Chesdovi (talk) 20:29, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
Do you have a source for what you are saying? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:40, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
I have found one you might accept. Asad provided me with it: pg. 20 If I am correct, the map shows areas north of the barrier as being in Jerusalem. Chesdovi (talk) 00:29, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
I don't see anything in that page saying that Rachels Tomb is in Israel and not the West bank, what page? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:42, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
I didn't provide that source and I have not even personally reviewed it. Here is another source showing its location to be within Bethlehem. (notice the white color is Israel's annexed territory). Irregardless, its locations is in the West Bank, not Jerusalem, as its annexation of Jerusalem is illegal and was universally condemned by even its steadfast allies. -asad (talk) 16:29, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
You said before not to use an Israeli source? Anyway, the lead made it clear that it was part of the west bank. Israel has not offically annexed it, and the lead did not claim that. Rather my new wording made it clear that that wall has made it a de-facto reality, viz. it is now annexed to Jerusalem and cut off from Bethlehem by a physical barrier. Your map does not show it within Bethlehem, and my rewording did not claim it wasn't "part of" Bethlehem. Chesdovi (talk) 17:22, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
Actually in reality, me being able to use an Israeli source to prove this point is all that much damning to your case. What you may view as a de facto permanent annexation by the wall, others view as temporary apartheid. My map clearly shows it is not in the white Israeli "annexed" Jerusalem which is what this whole fuss is about in the first place. -asad (talk) 17:30, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
I have already stated that the tomb was not offically annexed, and lies 460m past the municipal line. The "de-facto annexation" is just that, whether it is permenant or temporary, that is the case as it stands today. As the Palestinian Academic Society for the Study of International Affairs stated in 2005: the "army has prepared a plan - approved by PM Sharon and WJM mayor Olmert - for the de facto annexation of Rachel's Tomb to Jerusalem, in the context of the 'Jerusalem Security Envelope' plan, which involves the constructing of a security barrier..." With the barrier now constrcuted, the tomb has "effectivly" been annexed. RACHEL'S tomb In a desolate corridor created by Israel's security wall, near the main checkpoint into town, ... and the security wall, effectively annexing this area to Israeli Jerusalem.
...Right, but the world doesn't recognize the "de facto" annexation. I believe that is a vital point. What about that do you not get? -asad (talk) 17:53, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
The lead sums up the facts; viewpoints and stances of envious and disgruntled parties can be discussed at length in the body. I am happy this has been cleared up. Chesdovi (talk) 18:02, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
No matter what it says here or anywhere, Rachel's Tomb is in Jerusalem. When you go there, it is obvious. You want a great source, go visit it for yourself. Take a photo, video, or draw a picture. What is the official address? Jerusalem. Who controls the area? Jerusalem. How do you get there? Jerusalem. Where is it on my Garmin GPS? Jerusalem (I guess Garmin is part of the Zionist conspiracy) I know some might not like this, think this unfair, feel it is disputed, etc. But in actuality and reality Rachel's Tomb is in Jerusalem. It might make you feel good to say otherwise, but you are simply fooling yourself. Get over it.

You can say what you want, but I actually go and visit it in Jerusalem. I actually go and pray there in Jerusalem. No one who goes there thinks it is anywhere except Jerusalem. Hello world, go visit Rachel's Tomb in Jerusalem. --אֶפְרָתָה (talk) 18:08, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

You can't get to it from Bethlehem, right? Chesdovi (talk) 18:18, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

I will restate what I just wrote, and add on something that I thought was benignly obvious and wasn't needed (boy, was I wrong): the world doesn't recognize the "de facto" annexation. I believe that is a vital point. What about that do you not get? So, regardless if it is defacto annexed Jerusalem or annexed Jerusalem, the annexation is illegal and not recognized by anyone. If the annexation is illegal then land "annexed" by the annexing body is therefore null and void which would mean the unrecognized muncipal borders of are illegitimate and irrelevant. Further more, beyond the illegal annexation, there is an illegal occupation taking place. And under the borders of the occupied land, Rachael's tomb is not even close to Jerusalem. So if it's location is not in Jerusalem, then writing a lead which says it is in Jerusalem, be it de facto and unofficially, is POV. Not to mention the universal consensus of the location (in the West Bank) is flagrant POV. -asad (talk) 18:22, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree that recognition and reality should be addressed in the article. I very keen to undersatnd why you are not taking up the point that currently you have no problem whatsoever about the lead containing "was annexed to Jordan", also an illegitimate and illegal move. Explanation? Chesdovi (talk) 18:36, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
I have no problem with adding "annexed and occupied by Jordan..." -asad (talk) 18:49, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
Ass-ad, I guess you don't live in the area since you think it is "nowhere near". By the way, you must think my Garmin GPS is illegal. Also you should know that Christians don't celebrate Jesus's birth in Bethlehem. That too was illegal, they think. A Jewish family giving birth in the West Bank. Jesus's family were Jewish settlers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by אֶפְרָתָה (talk • contribs) 18:31, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
Jesus may have been born an illegal settler in the West Bank, but he did live as a Jew in Nazerath within the '67 borders; and since he is buried in the international zone of East Jerusalem, he had the best of all worlds! Chesdovi (talk) 18:41, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Chesdovi, the text before was much better then your edit, it describes the present situation, what its part of, you removed that its part of the Palestinian territories. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:35, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

"Israeli enclave"

What source says: "it was agreed that the tomb would serve as an Israeli enclave" ? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:20, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Lead

How is the removal that its located in Bethlehem in the West bank a "better lead" ? How is the BBC a "primary source? how is the replacement of occupied Palestinian territories, to only "occupied territories" "tighter and better wording" ? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:57, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

How is it that an editor justified removing the part about Palestinians not having access to the site, but justified leaving the part about Israeli's having access to the site? If it isn't blatant POV, it is beyond me. -asad (talk) 22:02, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Looks like the purpose of his edit was to revert back to Chesdovis edit; , he has not explained it.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:05, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Chesdovi did a remarkable job of rewriting the lede as to smooth out the contentious subjects. We don't have to smack the reader in the face if not necessary. The cites UNESCO were problematic because it is not secondary and should not really belong on the lede per WP:LEAD. Most importantly, the cites were misleading. Can't cite to one UNESCO document for the proposition that Israel's actions "have been criticized by international bodies."--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 22:27, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
You essentially said you removed certain material in the lead because it was "cited" and they were "primary sources". So if that were truly the case and that was truly the reason why you removed it, then you would logically saw it better to keep the material and add the sources later on the the article, right And BTW, on WP: LEAD it says determining the citations in the lead is something to be reached by consensus, something you DIDN'T do. And note, the second citation was only intended to cite its location in Palestinian Territory. -asad (talk) 23:36, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
How is it a remarkable job to remove that its located in the west bank? How is it a remarkable job to ad that "it was agreed that the tomb would serve as an Israeli enclave" without any source to confirm this? How is it a remarkable job to replace OPT with OT that includes Golan? How is BBC not secondary? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:02, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Can you respond Brewcrewer? As it appears now, it should be reverted back. -asad (talk) 16:58, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Where in WP:Lead does it say that primary sources cant be used? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:26, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

"The United Nations decided in 1947 that the site should lie within an international zone."

What source says this? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:44, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

"Deterioration in the security situation"

I would really love to to delete that part from the lead. It is no where close to becoming POV to say that the West Bank barrier serves as a "security" purpose. That is just as fair as me add that the wall was built to steal land from the Palestinians. None of those would have a place. I say we just remove it. -asad (talk) 20:16, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

I guess there are no objections to removing it. -asad (talk) 14:05, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
The fortification of the tomb 10 years before the wall was no doubt due to the constant PA attaks against Israeli soldiers stationed there. Chesdovi (talk) 21:34, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
That is one opinion. But I know you know that I can find an equal amount of opinions that say it is a land grab. -asad (talk) 12:29, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
I can find quite a few people who would claim the earth is flat. TFighterPilot (talk) 22:53, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
Indeed. There may be material about the wall constituting a land grab, but I am not sure the encapsulation of the tomb was described as such. Chesdovi (talk) 23:20, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps when the world court and all international and human right bodies join the Flat Earth Society, then your trivial comparison might have a backbone. It seems as if you all would like to believe that Rachel's Tomb is located outside of the 1967 border. Just in case you forgot, it is actually located inside the said border. Therefore, when you build a wall around something that is not yours, most people come to the conclusion that is is land grab. Otherwise they would build it on the internationally recognized border, right? -asad (talk) 07:39, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

There is the wall and there is the tomb housing, built 10 year earlier. It seems you are not familiar with the site. Try reading the whole article. Chesdovi (talk) 11:55, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, not only have I read the article, I've been to the site. If the occupying force builds a wall, even 1x1 meters, it is still considered a land grab by many people, as they don't have the right to wall anything which does not belong to them. Therefore, rather to say speak about the so called "security" situation, or the so called "apartheid" it is better to leave it as the situation stands. -asad (talk) 12:11, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
The occupying power is actually obliged to safeguard historical monuments. The tomb was not turned into a civilian settlement. The Oslo accords gave Israel a joint right to military presence therein. Had the fortification not been built, the tomb would have been destroyed by arson attacks, as we saw with Joseph's tomb. The result may have been consolidation of the site as an Israeli enclave, but the cause was the attacks against it, (since Israeli soldiers were stationed there.) The site had been held by Israel for 30 years before it was fortified as a military post. And that was certainly due to the deterioration of the security situation. Chesdovi (talk) 12:40, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
That is one opinion, the other is that local residents are trying to prevent the occupying power from stealing its land and appropriating their holy sites. Thusly, not taking your side, or the side I just presented, the statement is fine as it is. -asad (talk) 13:01, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
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