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The

(Please don't archive this section: it is a resurrecting issue, and a permanent pointer to discussion is useful)

Shouldn't this article begin with a The? Has this debate already been had? Isn't it, "The Scientific method is a body of techniques..." Mathiastck 06:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, right at the top of Archive 11, there is debate on the definite article The. --Ancheta Wis 08:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok well I vote to include "The" next time :) Mathiastck 18:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

There is/are "Scientific Method(s)/Process(es)", and then there is "The Scientific Method" - a more general, abstract model: Observation, Hypothesis, Experiment (repeat): this is "The Scientific Method"...it is more of a philosophical model than a process, as the body to which "Scientific Method" can/does refer(s). Am I right in thinking lack of "the" grammatically puts this method in way similar to the term "kung-fu" which is used without "the". For example, one does not say, "he used the kung fu on me!" I think journal citations showing use of "scientific method" minus the definite article "the" will be shown to be typos. One might see if there is a correlation in typo articles and authors of native asian (especially Japanese) toungue. It is known that the definte article is not used similarly in these asian languages as it is in english, and that new or late-comers to English may publish with this typo. Living and working in Berkeley, I have much experience with non-native English speakers of all types and feel the lack of definite article may in fact stem from native asian speaking individuals both authors and editors...unless of course the spirit of english wishes to refer to the scientific method as we do the kung fu. That does sound cool. 76.102.47.125 (talk) 00:51, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Observation, Hypothesis and Experiment are the three primary and fundamental concepts in all methods of science. Experiment: Search the internet for "observation hypothesis experiment". Observation: the majority of results are for "the Scientific Method". Hypothesis: I have just used the scientific method. 71.156.103.213 (talk) 22:10, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

At the outset of the discussion about this issue, User:Wjbeaty pointed out some of the published current discussion in the field per WP:VER and WP:RS. He said: "Many scientists object to ... the very concept The Scientific Method, and they fight to get it removed from grade-school textbooks. Examples:

• D. Simanek, physicist
• J. Denker, physicist
• P. Bridgman, physicist
• R. Feynman, physicist
• W. McComas
• H. Baur, chemist

Experience has taught that scientific method should be viewed as a cluster of techniques or body of techniques. When diagrammed it might look something like a sunflower with an identifiable core with a bunch of petals representing various fields of science. Add or remove a few petals, and it still looks like a sunflower. Kenosis 19:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

My modest opinion: I disagree on "The". A laboratory experiment, a computer simulation, a theoretical model: all may be scientific but are far from using a unique and univocal method. One thing is to single out a body of criteria in order to define if a method of inquiry is scientific, and another is to say that there is only one such method. Also (but I might be wrong), I think there is an implicit usage in Misplaced Pages so as to use "The..." in reference to a book or a specific theory (e.g. "interpretation of dreams" and "The Interpretation of Dreams"). -- Typewritten 08:21, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

"Experience has taught that scientific method should be viewed as a cluster of techniques"

If this article is about a collection of methods, then the title should be Scientific methods. indil (talk) 02:18, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

A redirect already exists. I personally oppose a page move. This article is referenced by thousands of other articles already, under its current title, and is well-known under its current name. A google search shows that the current title is referenced over 4 times more frequently than the plural. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 11:04, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

This is absurd. The rhythm method isn't specific either: some people use calendars, some people count days, others guess. We still follow correct English grammar. I am WP:BRDing. MilesAgain (talk) 16:47, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, I have done the R so D rather more than you did. This is not an issue of grammar as either is OK from that respect. It is a fundamental question and the balance is on not have the "The" there. --Bduke (talk) 22:18, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I've changed it to "Scientific method refers to the body of techniques..."; perhaps this is a satisfactory solution? Andareed (talk) 23:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes; good. MilesAgain (talk) 12:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I have looked at the Richard Feynman link given above. He does not use the phrase Scientific Mathod", and far from arguing that it should be removed from grade school textbooks, he seems to be arguing strongly that it should be taught. Rjm at sleepers (talk) 08:47, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

• I'm confused. None of those pages seem to insinuate that the problem is the article "the". They seem to contest the idea of the scientific method itself. Then again, I'm very tired, and not at all that attentive to begin with.  Aar  ►  09:30, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

  The best discussion on 'the' that I have seen comes from Mark Twain. One could argue this is all a fine point for those who think in English. There are languages that get along without a 'the', after all. But there is a part of English, the subjunctive mood, which is a good basis for the hypothesis and prediction steps of scientific method, and without which I believe it is hard to explain scientific method. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 20:04, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Cause and effect

Scientists apply the scientific method in determining cause and effect relationships. This foundational principle (cause and effect) seems to be neglected in this over elaborated article. Would anyone mind if I add a sourced statement to this effect in the lead. I would like to avoid causing a disruption. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 03:10, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

See footnote 12 on Max Born's statement, taken from Natural Philosophy of Cause and Chance. Aristotle took the lead in making cause and effect a principle, 2000 years before Born, of course. If you like, you can follow the link to a web version of Born's lecture. It is probably prudent to talk about the additional statement for the article here as well, as the note at the top of the talk page states. But it is well to 'be bold'. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 03:49, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Note: The view espoused by ZuluPapa5 is also part of the agenda of Physics First. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 04:09, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Aristole has the four causes for causality; however, karma was likely before that (if you take a global view). What is significant to me about about the scientific method is measurement index, means and apparatus. Scientific methods simply advance by standardize measurement methods. Ask anyone at NIST. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 19:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

The measurement part is already listed in the article. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 19:23, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes thanks, I get a sense that this article shows many scientific works in progress as folks try to characterize, classify, segment and scale measurement definitions. It is as if this article is a showcase for new and developing scitific methods. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 19:58, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, thank you for your feedback, ZuluPapa5. This article has existed since the beginning of the encyclopedia and hundreds of us have worked to get it to its current state. As a public work, science and its methods are the product of many minds, so your contributions at every level are important, for all our sakes. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 21:05, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Well maybe, I am interested in how all the little scientific methods piece together the cause and effect relationships, into one reliable and reproducible whole system. Kind of like the Macrocosm and microcosm approach with the scientific method. Guess I better find some sources and see how they fit in here. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 21:43, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

There are some articles in popular magazines which appear to be neglecting confirmation bias. (See Jonah Lehrer (Dec 13, 2010), New Yorker) The reported cases on non-reproducibility of results show clearly that the researchers are falling into the trap of looking for an expected case, rather than disproving counterexamples to the expected case. The researchers appear to have theories about a cause-effect relation which they then attempt to confirm, and appear to be running out of populations which confirm their theory. Of course, the science lies in the hard work of figuring out what it would take to debug a theory. Feynman would phrase this as "You have to be your own worst enemy". Lehrer's point is that some researchers are being too easy on themselves. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 01:00, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Interesting, suspect demonstrating Discriminant validity is the issue. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 14:28, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Very interesting. Selective reporting, confirmation bias, significance chasing, fashion and paradigms - those things fit into that which Peirce called the method of congruity. An early version of the Scientific method wiki mentioned Peirce's view that actual science is far from free of all vestiges of unscientific methods. (I'd insert a phrase to that effect if I could source it to a focused statement by Peirce on that.) Seduced by the glamorous side of the Force! - even in this day and age. Significance and implications can feel good but do not automatically equate to established conclusions and learnings, just as correlation can be useful but does not equate to causation or even to actual connection. Feynman is right; the first person whom one needs to check and balance is oneself.
Regarding science as measurement, I think that's a thesis that nets a lot of insight, but ultimately leads to diluting and weakening the ideas of measurement (and of analysis into components), so as to encompass things like tracking, plotting, and explaining; differentiating, classifying, and calculating; and identifying, ordering, and establishing. To the point of the wiki, we probably don't want to adopt a preconceived viewpoint (mine or anybody else's) on science as measurement, but rather treat measurement as one of those things that, in experience, has actually bulked large in science (and done so for identifiable reasons), such that one naturally addresses it in an article on science. The Tetrast (talk) 17:04, 3 January 2011 (UTC). Edited The Tetrast (talk) 17:09, 3 January 2011 (UTC).

Light travels in a straight line? No it doesn't.

I think the introduction to scientific method is perfect, except shouldn't it be pointed out that even though this method scientifically proves light travels in a straight line, that in fact it does not? It leaves the information a bit misleading to not do so..

The shadows cast by heat waves show that thermal energy bends light, and that would be considered a transparent body. Also, the phenomenon of "Einstein's cross" proves that gravity bends light, gravity exists in transparent bodies. Then there are the transparent liquid experiments, the main course of light will travel along the transparent liquid in whatever shape it is bent--thus bending the light rays (without this effect fiber-optics would never work). Moreover, light rays expand according to a logarithmic curve; although, this could be perceived as a straight line in short distances, it is in fact an expansion curve.

I don't know where to cite this information, or the corresponding experiments which proved it--I am not educated in this effect--but I found it misleading to have in scientific article proof of a phenomenon that has been shown to be incorrect by other experiments. Of course, this makes it perfect for an introduction to scientific method, since scientific method requires that the conclusions can be wrong.

I'm sure there are some scientists contributing who would be totally familiar with these. Sjahm (talk) 23:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

But the degree of an effect has to be taken into account, as detailed by the difference between accuracy and precision. So when Alhazen demonstrated the precision of his proposition using the dust particles in the air of the desert, we with hindsight get to find out the limitations of that proposition which you have outlined above. The range of a scientific theory is discussed further down in the article, with the comparison of Newton's gravitational theory with Einstein's gravitational theory. Feynman discusses this in his Character of Physical Law, where a precise physical statement (like Alhazen's statement) can be completely legalistically wrong from the POV of classical logic, as you point out. There are other types of logic, such as intuitionistic logic which can allow us to 'feel' our way to the truth in a constructivist way. The simplifications in scientific thinking allow us to be precise, so that we can make more accurate calculations, predictions, and further corrections, as you have pointed out. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 23:47, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Copyedit of Scientific_method#Evaluation_and_improvement per this talk section. Thank you for your comment. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 12:53, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

The example seems like a classic case for controversial Type III errors to me (see: Type_I_Error#Various_proposals_for_further_extension). Moving gleefully and easily down the wrong path, maybe. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 18:32, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Except that Alhazen and Peirce especially were very much aware of the role of doubt in critiquing their proposed propositions. I definitely would not classify these two in the role of a 'sorcerer's apprentice' in over their heads. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 18:44, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Before we get too far afield on this, Alhazen's statements are the basis of optics, which is a practical science now part of electromagnetism. He did good science then, and it is good science now. Please don't throw out Alhazen's statements for effects which do not show up in our everyday realm of experience (i.e, low velocities, low masses, low gravitational fields, in air etc.). They still apply in this realm. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 21:08, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

We shouldn't just assume what is that Alhazen meant by the words that have been translated as "transparent body" - whether this would include water, or heat waves in the air, and so on. One could add something like "The conjecture holds up then and now in its original domain of application." The Tetrast (talk) 22:44, 5 November 2010 (UTC).

I am definitely in over my head here, but it seems like a seeing the trees but not the forest issue. Which can happen by constructing very precise measurements to support elaborate conclusions. I suppose this might be a critique of the scientific method, but wouldn't want to see a critique section. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 01:22, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I thought Light did move in a straight line, and it was space itself that was curved.....And regarding "transparent" matterials, the change in the direction and/or speed of light i'm pretty sure are actually because light gets absorbed and then possibly reemited by matter, so it's not that light moved in a curve, it is more like it disapeared and was created again moving in a different straight direction (several times depending on the thickness of the material) --TiagoTiago (talk) 14:07, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

In noneuclidean geometry, it might be said that a even a straight line doesn't "travel" in a straight line. HkFnsNGA (talk) 14:18, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Joe3Eagles, 14 November 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} Simple word omission error: In the 3rd to last paragraph of the first section (Introduction to scientific method), the word "to" is missing in the clause, "you will have go back to 2 and try to invent a new 2, deduce a new 3, look for 4, and so forth." The corrected clause would be as follows: "you will have to go back to 2 and try to invent a new 2, deduce a new 3, look for 4, and so forth." --<BR>Joe3Eagles<BR>----------When I get new information, I change my position. <BR> What, sir, do YOU do with new information? <BR>--John Maynard Keynes (talk) 07:04, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

 Done All fixed, thanks! Qwyrxian (talk) 08:01, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Paul Feyerabend and 'anything goes'

As the sentence in the article is quite misleading, (and is often misinterpreted and misquoted) I would suggest editing it from "In essence, he says that "anything goes", by which he meant that for any specific methodology or norm of science, successful science has been done in violation of it." to: "In essence, he says that for any specific method or norm of science, one can find a historic episode where violating it has contributed to the progress of science. Thus, if believers in a scientific method wish to express a single universally valid rule, Feyerabend jokingly suggests, it should be 'anything goes'." If necessary I can supply citation for 'anything goes' being meant jokingly. Biophil.o (talk) 02:19, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps somehow the joking aspect might be included; Lee Smolin has described how Feyerabend flim-flammed him and another physicist when they came to him for advice. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 03:41, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, please do include the citation. Where there's misinterpretation and misquotation, a citation (especially with a link if available) can nail things down. The Tetrast (talk) 03:59, 9 January 2011 (UTC).

Here you go: "Imre Lakatos loved to embarrass serious opponents with jokes and irony and so I, too, occasionally wrote in a rather ironical vein. An example is the end of Chapter 1: 'anything goes' is not a 'principle' I hold ... but the terrified exclamation of a rationalist who takes a closer look at history". Feyerabend, Against Method (1993), p.vii. Google Books page (btw, it is already quoted in Misplaced Pages's Scientism entry) Biophil.o (talk) 02:06, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

For the Feyerabend-Smolin episode, see Lee Smolin (2006) The Trouble With Physics ISBN 0-618-55105-0. Start on p. 290.

I too am interested in the citation. (Parenthetically, for Smolin, the trouble with physics began with a failure documented on p. 64 ff.) --Ancheta Wis (talk) 13:16, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Intro

The start of the intro was horrible, and riddle with errors. It was like a very badly done history of the scientific method, so I chopped that bit all out William M. Connolley (talk) 20:15, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

William M. Connolley, Thank you for your evaluation. As we are all interested in the improvement of this page, I will proceed with fixing the links which are now broken.

To all editors, while the repair work is underway, I ask your patience. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 11:23, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

The role of doubt, so prominently discussed by Peirce, was discussed by Alhazen 850 years prior to Peirce, in his scathing Critique of Ptolemy (published 1028, also called Aporias against Ptolemy, where an aporias is a statement of unresolved contradictions). Since doubt is a good thing in a community of scholars, as it is a call to arms, this alone represents an advance in scientific method beyond the empiricism of Aristotle (and ancient China, for that matter). As Alhazen said in his Doubts concerning Ptolemy, "Truth is sought for its own sake. And those who are engaged upon the quest for anything for its own sake are not interested in other things." -- (Pines translation) --Ancheta Wis (talk) 15:21, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Lakatos, same same but different

I would suggest to either delete or heavily hedge the statement about Lakatos claiming the principles of science and mathematics are the same, i.e. Rtc's recent edits. To claim that THE principles of science are the same as math's cannot be true. It might be argued that Lakatos suggested that some principles, given a certain level of abstraction are the same, but referencing one whole book, and arguing that science and math are on a all normative respects identical is no good. Biophil.o (talk) 04:10, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

We have changed the statement. Thank you for your suggestion. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 11:42, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Very odd article

I haven't looked at this before, but I came to it from the Science#Philosophy of science debate. I'm afraid I find the whole thing very strange.

1. Why does every mention of DNA require that silly icon?
2. Why does every piece on DNA refer back to another piece?
3. Why do the references on photo 51 say that its shape was predicted by C&W, when the article photo 51 says that the X shape predicted the helix? Later in this article it says that the X 'confirmed' the helix theory.
4. The DNA example section uses terms (eg. characterizations) that are not explained until much later on; and I don't think that one is used in the same way.
5. Who says that hypotheses are 'normally' mathematical models? In which sciences?
6. Much of the article reads like a story book rather than an encyclopedia entry. Cf "So, the race was on ..."
7. The Models of Sc enq section seems to read better. Was this older stuff?
8. There is a great deal of repetition. Myrvin (talk) 20:45, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

See reply to #1 & 2 at Talk:Science#Merging with scientific method section

reply to 3: You will have to re-read this article for the history of photo 51 as Crick's paper is only a part, but the paper is the mathematical prediction. Watson's reaction to the photo (which is the data, or experimental result) is perhaps the most famous part. The sentences you object to were written for different stages in the investigation. The key part is that each predicted result be currently unknown, so that there is no fudging of data or hypothesis.

Needham, for example, characterized hypotheses as mathematical, so did Galileo. It is possible to state mathematics in words, as Galileo famously did.

reply to 6. I'm afraid that each editor has his own style. Per guidelines, we Assume Good Faith. Unfortunately, the editor who wrote the words you object to was banned. I respect him and do not wish to change his words.

reply to 7. It is not the oldest material in the article.

reply to 8. See Talk:Science#Merging with scientific method section --Ancheta Wis (talk) 11:38, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I include your response on the Talk:Science#Merging with scientific method section:

Myrvin, the scientific method article is the result of contributions of a long series of editors, dating back to the beginning of the encyclopedia. The editors have different philosophical positions, but the use of a method is the common thread. I claim here (but do not state in that article, as that would be OR) that if one doesn't know something, that one can approach an subject previously unknown to oneself using a scientific method. You can follow the hyperlinks in the DNA section (marked by Double Helix icons), for example, and get a synopsis of the article in that way (so a little article lives in the larger article). The article is heavily overlapped because it embodies the concept of a state machine whose states are marked by the little Double Helix icons. Fortunately, the wiki-links allow a reader to move from one state to the next by causing events (clicks), and in this way, move from one state of understanding to the next. The state machine is taught, in stages, to students who learn the individual names from their individual teachers, according to their individual scientific interest. There are commonalities, such as the ethos imparted (i.e. no fudging of predictions, no back-entry of data, etc.) and everything is meant to be open (per the ethos). In the history of science, every mistake has been made, but what survives works. And what has survived is reproducible per the ethos. The reproducibility requirement is the reason for the loop in the state machine. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 11:07, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

My first reaction is that you are trying to bamboozle me with computer-speak. I want the article to embody the concept of a well-written encyclopedia, not a state-machine. Something very strange is going on here.

What is the point of confusing people with an article within an article? Surely, additions should be integrated with the current text. Your state clicks serve only to point to the DNA parts and not to a 'synopsis of the article'. If it this that causes overlapping then I do not like it and I think readers will find it confusing.

Are these DNA intrusions put there for some particular students you know who have learnt about a state machine? - or individual teachers? The article should be written for the general reader.

Are we to expect lots of little icons popping up in Wiki articles? Will they all become unreadable? Wales you were right - fewer people will be able to edit it.

I didn't understand any of your talk about 'reproducibility'.

Perhaps these students who know about the state machine also know that they should look out for the DNA icons. To me they look silly and should be removed.

Your use of 'mathematical' seems much too wide. Some scientists are keen to produce mathematical models, but others (say biologists) might not. A prediction or explanation is not necessarily mathematical at all. Nor are they maths re-written in words. C&W's model was made out of metal and plastic. As for Needham, how on earth is the prediction about the way a horse gallops mathematical? Perhaps you mean 'quantitative', ie the use of numbers? Even then, the horse prediction seems not to fit.

If you are going to use DNA research as an example, then the photo 51 stuff should be much clearer: Who predicted what and when. Myrvin (talk) 13:49, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Myrvin, it's in the article already, in the citations: The people, predictions, dates and results have been in the article for years. The whole point is that no one knows anything until a clear corroboration has been established.

A sequence of steps is one formulation for an algorithm or machine. Scientific method is more subtle than a finite state machine, which is why that statement is not in the article.

But if you are looking for a philosophical statement there is one in the article. It was hyperlinked from the beginning. The DNA section was added later because readers wanted an introduction, so I inserted it after the philosophical statement had been in the article for a number of years.

No, the Needham 'flying gallop' is about the difficulties of observation, not hypothesis. Needham (2004) Science and Civilisation in China VII.2 contains at least one statement about mathematical forms for a scientific hypothesis. I would have to go to the library to get the page number where I saw the statement. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 14:55, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

You do not seem to be addressing my comments seriously or cogently. I do not understand most of what you say.

What is in the article already? The DNA stuff was added by you, you say. So that wasn't there for years?

Why do you keep going on about state machines? Please say clearly what you mean.

I think there were real conflicting hypotheses about the flying horse, and the experiment decided between them. Until a horse is found that doesn't 'fly'.

I cannot see how the DNA pieces can provide an introduction. They are a particular example.

You seem to have ignored much of what I have said. Myrvin (talk) 17:47, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Regarding Myrvin's point 3, I'd agree that "confirmed" should be changed. I'd say "established" or "helped establish" or at least "implied." I looked but I don't see where the notes say that C&W predicted the helix prior to Photo 51; if it's there but I missed it, then maybe I'll agree the notes need to be clarified.
  Regarding "state machine" I think that Ancheta means that the wiki illustrates the stages in scientific method in the perspective of the state of knowledge at each given stage.
  As regards "the race was on," that sentence is both true and succinct as to the particular case, and to the point of much scientific research. In a way, science is the intentional speedup of the discoveries to which sufficient experience would lead anyway.
  Myrvin, please be patient, Ancheta makes more sense than you may see at first. Anyway, I'm against rushing changes in these aspects of the article. The Tetrast (talk) 18:41, 16 January 2011 (UTC).

Thank you. I am patience personified. Myrvin (talk) 20:15, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Myrvin, I apologize for the 'geek-speak' which I unintentionally inflicted on you. When we talk on the talk page, I create a mental picture of the respondents, and my assumption about your background was wrong. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 13:21, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

In rhetoric of science, a researcher has something to propound, is attempting to communicate a claim, and convince his peers. In the stages of a scientific method, the state of knowledge is common to the researchers of that community, who share a common vocabulary, and who know what is currently known, and what is currently unknown. Once agreement about the state of a given topic is attained, using the canon of proof for that community, then it is proper to communicate it to the general community of scholars, to the interested laymen (in this case, also including scientists who are not currently engaged in the topic of inquiry, but who at least know the issues. The journals Science, Nature, etc. attempt to serve this population.), and finally to the general populace (leaving aside questions of policy).

This article's introduction claims that there 4 distinct stages (as Tetrast names them) which can be distinguished when investigating a topic of interest.

In the first stage, one sets the stage, and marshals resources (There are researchers who specialize in this phase alone, typically senior people, and in the DNA story, it is Lawrence Bragg, Salvador Luria, etc. There are some sciences for which this stage suffices, see for example Aristotle's work in Natural History).

In the second stage there are a lot of opinions racing around the community but nothing is known for sure (In the DNA story, the people are Pauling, Watson, Crick, Perutz, Kendrew, Randall, Franklin, Gosling, etc., and one opinion, for example is that the gene has a material basis, an opinion which Pauling and Crick share. Pauling, who pioneered the use of quantum mechanics in chemistry, was the first to determine a molecular structure, the alpha helix, proposed a triple helix for DNA).

In the third stage, based on one of those opinions, a researcher deduces a consequence, evidence for which/evidence against can then be sought (In the DNA story, Crick derives the Fourier transform for a helix). This is a prediction about a substance, just as long as no one has previously determined the structure of that substance, thus no chance of tampering. The crucial point is that one does not know the true situation yet. Crick's mathematical prediction is thus an expectation about a future action.

In the fourth stage, evidence is obtained for or against the opinion. (In the DNA story, photo 51) Again, there was no risk of tampering the result because another researcher, Franklin, obtained the data independently, and there was no back-entry of data. (The citations in the article have the dates showing that the stages indeed occurred in the 1 2 3 4 order. But the link I gave you also asserts that researchers have the freedom to work however they choose.) At this point the community has attained a new state of understanding, and the protocols of the rhetoric of science obtain. Sometimes, this new understanding is immediately communicated to the populace, but sometimes the new state of understanding is simply communicated to the funders. This process, as you see, is extremely fluid, and the finding spirals upward with another set of issues in another iteration of the whole process. For example, photo 51 does not disprove the triple helix. But Pauling's published model had DNA as neutral and not acid. So Watson and Crick had more work to do before they nailed the structure.

Now what is it about the introduction that bothers you? As you can see, it is real science. I could have used a king commanding the waves to stop, and that would have been an example of experimental disproof, but then we would be faced with 'why that's obvious'. Or I could have used the 'flying gallop', as you point out, but then that would be an example from the history of cinema. So why not science, in this case science that has materially improved the world, with the applications and understanding of the structure of DNA. If one were to leave out the DNA example, then what device might one use to better understand the article? --Ancheta Wis (talk) 13:21, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

My user page User:Myrvin tells you all you need to know about me with regard to my credentials. I know nothing of yours. I have come across an awful lot of geek-speak in my time. I wasn't going to complain about the use of the DNA story (apart from photo 51 and 'characterizations') but since you ask: Who says the DNA story is a good example of the scientific method? It looks to me like two very clever guys bumbling around until they hit on the idea that their peers liked. I came across the Examples of scientific method article which has all the DNA stuff - including the switching around - but no clue as to why DNA is a good example. (Which came first?) To my mind we need a citation that talks about the DNA story in the way you describe - otherwise it's your own research. I also question the way the examples tell the story - I feel it is incorrect. Perhaps I should re-read Watson and Crick on how they saw the story. Gauch (2003) is very rude about scientists and their understanding of Sc Method, but I can't see C&W in the preview. He may have other examples. Myrvin (talk) 14:34, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, I have looked Francis Crick and Richard Feynman in the face, and have felt Crick's penetrating blue-eyed stare when he asked me questions; Feynman was my best teacher. We both agree that there was a lot of bumbling around, which exactly fits the expectations of Ludwik Fleck. I cannot claim responsibility for Examples of scientific method, but it is clear that its article history states that it was taken from this article. The link confirms my statement that the DNA story has been in the article for years.

By the way, the consensus from this page is that 'the scientific method' is untenable usage. Thus the DNA story is for 'a' scientific method. The McElheny citations are already in the article. There is a critical edition of The Double Helix which may contain additional information which you probably seek but I do not posses the critical edition, only the original; Watson was very forthright to describe the situation, and it comes across as the truth, to me. In the search for the model which you seem to seek, I will revisit McElheny. However, there are probably multiple models in play here (think Lakatos, Feyerabend, and Popper laughing gleefully right now). Naturally, you can be bold. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 17:48, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

New version of the DNA story

To show willing, I have spent some time coming up with my own short precis of the story of DNA structure. As you can see, I'm stuck on what actual physical experiments C&W carred out, so - as I feared - maybe this is not a good example to use. Any way, here it is:

1. SCOPE - Salzberg, et al

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