Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:34, 2 March 2006

I have slightly modified the page to explain how the group has been discredited because anti-semetic groups have quoted them out of context- ] 08:03, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

You removed solid factual information and replaced it by junk. Desist. --Zero 15:25, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Junk? I only seek to describe that like many Israeli and Jewish Groups they are often quoted to give the appearence of dissension in Israel that doesn't neccasarily exist to the same extent in reality. I was perhaps overzealous in the original text so I will modify the previous comment but to not list anything would make the article incomplete. If you decide to edit the new passages which are extremly mild I will be forced to flag this page.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg 05:30, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Please indicate your level of approval with the edited passage. If you decide to include a condescending comment similar to last time it will indicate that I am not dealing with an adult- Santa Claus

Your paragraph is barely English. Nobody will have a clue what it means. And spare me the nonsense about childishness, Santa! --Zero 10:27, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Give me a break, the only criticism you provided makes it seem like only right wing fascists disagree with the group, Machsom Watch is a fringe group. If your problem was just my choice of language you would have written something yourself since you wouldn't know as much about the group if you didn't also know it had very little support inside Israel or the Jewish community. Are you just disingenuious, stubborn, or are you trying to promote a particular viewpoint?

Look I really don't want to get into an edit war so if you have a certain attachment to your article or take issue with my writing, you can write something, but I am not going to let nothing be written about real opposition to the group. I would understand if it was a controversial group that still generally had a lot of support, but writing about Machsom Watch and leading the reader to believe what you have written is wrong.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg 05:30, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Your paragraph does not even mention Machsom Watch and its relevance is unclear. Furthermore, it is an opinion and opinions have to be sourced. You can't just type your personal impressions into the article. Quote someone important saying something relevant. And, no, it is not a fringe group. It is a medium-sized (thousands of members) human rights group in the mainstream of the Israeli human right movement. --Zero 12:16, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Lyndon Larouge has about the same percentage of support in the US that Machsom Watch has in Israel, yet no one would deny he is on the fringe on American Politics. Look I am sure you wouldn't deny that there is much more criticism of Machsom watch than what you have provided. Although I will admit that NGO monitor is not the most neutral source in the world, the article could at least include their criticism. It appears that the quote from Women in Green in purposely chosen to make it appear Machsom Watch's critics are fascists.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg 19:23, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

The website from the quote is under references at the bottom. I will do a proper reference when I return from work.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg 19:30, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Criticisms

I've re-added that paragraph with sources. This is very clear as far as I can see. Moreover, the MW accused Israeli soldiers of laughing, while they didn't laugh in the video (I remember seing it on TV, they didn't laugh). Besides, it's a littles senseless to have a section and MW criticisms without listing a single thing they did wrong, don't you think? -- Ynhockey || Talk 04:06, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

As much as I would hate to I think I am going to agree with Zero on this one, the passage is unnecessarily political, and too POV. If you can find some criticism that is more appropiate I think it would be helpful to the article.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg 06:24, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Zero and I weren't even talking about that paragraph. The one you removed is a quote from a website. -- Ynhockey || Talk 05:56, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Well I was actually referring to that paragraph as well. The one I removed was also inappropriate I thought, I know you didn't change it or anything and it was properly cited, but honestly the quote seemed improper.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg 06:24, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree it was a bit harsh, but I'm trying to represent a major viewpoint of those who are opposed to Machsom Watch - it is a prevailing opinion within Israel that the organization isn't helping anyone, and it's unfair that an article about it will only have good things. By comparison, the article on Ariel Sharon, who has much more support within the country he represents, lists a load of criticisms (scattered all over the article). I think the way it is right now (without that IDFIsrael quote) is fine, but if you disagree, we should reach a consensus regarding acceptable criticism of MW. -- Ynhockey || Talk 06:30, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Believe me I know that there should be more criticism of Machsom Watch in the article (just scroll up on this talk page) my impression is that by including your quote it actually kinda underminded our cause.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg 07:26, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Violin incident

"Known blunders of Machsom Watch have included falsely accusing the IDF of forcing a Palestinian violinist to play his violin at a checkpoint, a story which was printed worldwide. It was later discovered that the violinist was playing at his own will."

I'll explain what is wrong with this. On Nov 9, 2004, three MW women observed a Palestinian playing his violin while trying to get through Beit Iba checkpoint and one of them filmed it. Akiva Elder of Haaretz picked up this story, together with the presumption of the filmer that the IDF had required the Palestinian to play, and published it on Nov 25 along with a statement from the IDF regretting the incident ("the officer in charge...acted in an insensitive manner, but not maliciously", etc). A few days later, the IDF issued another statement contradicting the first one; now they claimed that the Palestinian had started to play of his own accord. The Palestinian violinist has consistently claimed that he was told to play by the soldiers. Meanwhile, the MW women acknowledged that they did not know why he started to play because the conversation was in Arabic which they don't speak (actually two of the three women said that right from the beginning). The film does not help because the Palestinian is already playing when the film begins. That's about the whole story. So firstly the claim "falsely accused" is inaccurate; actually one women voiced a presumption that she could not in fact prove. Secondly, it is not true that the violinist was later discovered to have played of his own accord, rather that is the official claim of the IDF and contradicts the testimony of the Palestinian. It cannot be proved one way or the other. I'm not opposed to this incident getting a mention, but the present suggested text will not do. Btw, copies of the relevant Haaretz articles can be read in the Google cache: Nov 25, Nov 30, Dec 7. --Zero 12:14, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

While the details of the incident seem murky and the Palestinian would have reason to lie about the incident (as would Haaretz, a leftist news agency), I'm prepared to take Haaretz's word for it. So, how about this text:

Recently, Machsom Watch has been accused of falsely claiming that the IDF forced a Palestinian violinist to play his violin at a checkpoint, a story which was printed worldwide. While originally the IDF apologized for the incident, the IDF's commission on the issue denied responsibility, citing the testimonies of several soldiers. However, the Palestinian in question insisted that the original story was true.

EDIT: Keep in mind also that the human rights organization I cited is also a leftist organization, just like MW, and they oppose MW on this.

Not sure who you are referring to. It can't be NGO Monitor, which is published by advisor to Sharon, Dore Gold, and edited by a well-known rightwinger. Also, no left-wing organization would publish material from CAMERA without independent checks. --Zero 22:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

-- Ynhockey || Talk 13:07, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

If it matters I support Zero's last edit, it is pretty matter-of-fact and avoids controversial statements.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg (talk) 02:34, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes I also support the last edit, it's a good compromise. -- Ynhockey || Talk 04:29, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Arutz Sheva as source

While I didn't add that last paragraph, or its source, I maintain that if palestineremembered can be used as a source for dozens of articles, so can Arutz Sheva. If you remove Arutz Sheva, please remove all information taken from palestineremembered. Otherwise, please restore the paragraph. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 09:22, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

No deal. --Zero 10:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Why then do you support vehemently anti-Israel sources but oppose vehemently anti-Arab sources? -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 11:18, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you might remind me where I used palestineremembered as a source for something. I have no recollection of such a thing. To the best of my knowledge, my standard for sources is consistently high. (Nevertheless, your example is not equivalent. An equivalent to Arutz Sheva would be radioislam.com. palestineremembered is not in that class.) --Zero 12:17, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually the equivalent of Arutz7 would be Wafa the palestinian news agency. Zeq 12:39, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

This isn't about where you specifically used palestineremembered (because, as you probably know, I have never used Arutz 7 as a source myself either), but whether you support such extremely biased sources being on Misplaced Pages in general. Clearly you support palestineremembered since I've seen you editing articles using palestineremembered as a source, but not Arutz 7. I don't think we need to draw direct equivalents, because it's not about what type of source a certain source is (news, memorial, advertizement, etc.) but about how the particular source interprets the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. If pro-Palestinian sources are allowed to stay, then so should pro-Israeli sources. In Black September, the site palestinefacts.org (a pro-Israeli site) was not allowed as a source, and in Altalena Affair, etzel.org is not used. Why is there a bias against pro-Israeli sources? -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 12:47, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually Misplaced Pages has hundreds of "pro-Israeli" sources. --Zero 12:51, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Plenty of sources were given, including the corresponding HebWiki article. You will probably also find it in the external links given (though I didn't check yet) but here is another link to this accusition: YNET. Just google it and stop reverting. MathKnight 13:01, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Zero, give us a break, Palestine Remembered is neutral huh? here is an excerpt from their website: "Are you aware that Israeli Zionists, during the 1948 war, pushed over 150,000 Palestinian refugees into the sea?, For a long time, Zionists have been propagating fear based propaganda to their followers". Even by itself it is unacceptable to even consider the website as a source but it is even worse to claim it is somehow more neutral than Arutz 7. Its time to stop editing under a veil of neutrality Zero.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 21:34, 2 March 2006 (UTC)