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Ratings of articles

Hi, like in title I have to ask you about ratings in articles. So, will they in for example: the german, french, polish, italian etc. version of Misplaced Pages? I think, that they need something like ratings, because the part of article has bad quality, are incredible, has no references. Please lead to of the ones biggest Wikipedii of the evaluation. It really will be needed. Thank You --83.11.225.163 (talk) 21:17, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

If I may try to help, we do have article assessment which appears in the menu bar of every article for users who have a login account. This ranking system is one of many features available to account holders.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 23:57, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

An article's assessment is not displayed by default to logged-in users. This feature is enabled by selecting the gadget entitled "Display an assessment of an article's quality as part of the page header for each article" in the gadgets section of your preferences. Graham87 08:59, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying. I have forgotten what the standard account looks like as I have several gadgets installed and use the modern skin. (note to IP) Listen to Graham...he knows what he is talking about. :)
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 12:41, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Do you mean the Article Feedback Tool?Smallman12q (talk) 02:14, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

How to keep a discussion about possible anti-Semitism civil

I know that you are now for the most part just one editor among thousands, which I admire and would not wish to compromise. But you have in the past taken an interest in discussions that cross a line beyong uncivil, and of course no one can question your commitment to the project as a whole.

I opened a thread at AN/I because of what I perceived as anti-semitic content in a new article. I proposed a ban, which another user changed to a proposal for a topic ban. Many editors oppose this and while I do not agree with them, I respect their reasoning.

But here is one exception that really disturbs me.

I am really disturbed by the following reasoning, at an AN/I thread: "Should it be concerning that a good percentage of the supporting editors here are Jewish, according to their userpage? Doesn't that make them biased against Noleander?"

I didn't bring this to your attention at the time because a great number of other editors responded and in my view quite appropriately. But it has now been two days, and this user continues to take the same line of reasoning:

The reason I raised the issue is because there is an preponderance of Jewish users who have arrived to vote on this topic ban, far more than an average cross-section of ANI watchers should have. There is also the fact that there is also accusation of antisemitism on Noleander's part being thrown around with very little actual looking at his editing and only looking at the type of articles he edits. It raises concerns for me of both bias on the part of users using such arguments and concerns about ulterior notification of this discussion. SilverserenC 00:18, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

No, it is specifically true. Every single person on the opposing side in that argument was Jewish, thus it is literally true to call them Jewish users. Their userpages said so and they were arguing against the inclusion of any material that was criticism unless it was by a Jewish author (which...doesn't even make any sense in terms of criticism). Eventually, most of us gave up on trying to argue, since it was getting nowhere. I believe Noleander kept arguing since then, which clearly didn't help him in the books of said users. The rooted stance of the opposing users also explains why the Criticism of Judaism article is so much worse than other comparable Criticism of religion articles. There is a specific reason why I attempt to stay away from articles where I would have a personal interest in them having a POV (such as political articles, articles about social issues, articles related to homosexuality, ect.). I wish other users did the same, but more often than not, users go directly to articles where they have a biased opinion and it's this that causes such conflict on Misplaced Pages. I have no personal interest in Judaism, either for or against, but I am against other biased users trying to control such an article. SilverserenC 00:37, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

If you do not want to get involved, you don't need to give me any explanation. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:26, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

This post isn't about Noleander; it is about the responses to the discussion on Noleander.

It seem seems to me that there are two possible issues to address here:

1. When an editor is accused of anti-X bias, should it be a matter of concern if Xian editors are disproportionately represented amongst those making or supporting the accusation?
2. In this case, did the editor claiming that this was the case have reasonable grounds for doing so?

My own thought on point two is that is that allegations either of structural bias or of misconduct should not be made unless there is sufficient evidence for a case to be reasonably made. Whether the case is proven is a different matter, but editors should make sure that they have have reasonable prima facie grounds before making such a claim.

However, it appears to me that Slrubenstein is objecting to the principle of an editor ever raising such concerns about who is doing the accusing. Is that what you mean, Slrubenstein? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:05, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Noting that there's already a lengthy WP:Wikiquette alerts thread about this. I would have thought that accusing other editors of being biased because they're Jews was an obvious personal attack, but maybe I'm just not smart enough to appreciate the subtleties and nuances involved. I know if I'd said something like that as a kid my Protestant parents would have washed my mouth out with soap, but apparently here it's just "fighting political correctness" or "standing up to censorship" or some such. 28bytes (talk) 19:36, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

If an editor was accused of anti-Ruritanian bias, and faced sanctions based on the consensus of a predominantly Ruritanian set of participants, I would be concerned. If an editor faced sanctions for anti-American bias on the basis of a consensus of American editors, I would be concerned. And the same goes for any value of the "X" I mentioned above, because it's a long-standing principle of justice that people should be tried by an impartial tribunal, not by a group who perceive themselves to have personally slighted by the accused.

I don't know whether SilverserenC had reasonable grounds for hir claim of bias; I have not attempted to assess that point. What concerns me here is the attempt to censure an editor for even suggesting that such bias could be a problem, just because the allegation was of a pro-Jewish bias. This seems to me to a very dangerous situation: are Jewish editors to be exempt from any expression of concern about structural bias? If any editor says "hold on, Xian editors should not be the majority on a jury deciding whether someone is anti-Xian", are to be automatically tagged as anti-semitic whenever X=Jew? Really?

Anti-semitism is a wicked thing, but the existence of anti-semitism should not be abused as an automatic trump card to which can be played to prevent any scrutiny of the processes used in assessing whether an editor has fallen below the high standards which Misplaced Pages seeks to uphold. If anyone who questions bias and due process in this sort of discussion is going to be hounded as anti-semite, we set a horribly chilling precedent. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:15, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Let me say that I have never stated that such a bias does exist in this situation. I have always been asking whether there is the possibility it exists and voicing my concern about the makeup of the topic ban voters. But I have never, ever said that said voters are biased without a doubt. I have always just been asking and it is this asking that has been taken so far our of context and somehow meant to mean that I was condemning Jewish editors or something to that effect. Silverseren 20:29, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Here's what I find chilling. Immediately after Silverseren made his accusation of bias, two or three editors supportive of the topic ban scrambled to point out that they weren't Jewish. As a non-Jew who supported the topic ban, I almost joined them... and immediately felt ashamed of myself for thinking my not being Jewish would somehow "legitimize" my support of the topic ban. For thinking my opinion would somehow hold more weight because I'm not a Jew. It disgusts me that the non-Jewish editors have felt the need to "out" themselves as non-Jewish to defend their position. I can't imagine how the Jewish editors must have felt. 28bytes (talk) 20:33, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

@28 bytes, if the substantive topic was anti-American bias or anti-Methodist, would you be disgusted if editors declare whether or not they were American or Methodist?

If not, then how can we ensure that such concerns can be aired in respect of Jewish editors and Jewish topics, without someone seeking an unbiased assessment being accused of anti-semitism?

Because that's the chilling effect I see here. It seems that even asking whether there is bias is being taken as an open-and-shut case of anti-semitism. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:57, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, yeah, I would be disgusted if editors felt compelled to announce that they weren't Methodists in order for their opinions not to be considered suspect. Is it really too much to ask that our arguments and evidence be considered rather than what church we go to when determining if what we say has merit? 28bytes (talk) 21:13, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

@28bytes - re "I would be......they weren't Methodists" - Not to butt-in here, but a question to better understand your point. Would you say a Methodist would on average be equally able to write neutrally on some contraversial methodist-related subject as a non-methodist? NickCT (talk) 21:20, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

On average? No idea. I'd imagine some are very good at it and some are not, just like everyone else. 28bytes (talk) 21:43, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

With all due respect, I think that viewpoint is a little naive. Being American, I think it would be hard for me to write/research the war in Afghanistan in a way that gave due attention to the Afghani perspective on the ordeal. Even if I made a good-hearted, good-faith attempt to do so, it would still be difficult.

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that we're all subject to our prejudices. Regardless of whether we're American, Methodist, or what have you.... Someone posing to me the question "Do you think as an American you can write w/ NPOV about the War in Afghanistan", doesn't strike me as "disgusting". NickCT (talk) 13:50, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

If the discussion on ANI had worked as you say it should, then it would have been about the real issue with Noleander, which is misrepresentation of sources, and the word antisemitism would have never been used. But the fact that it is being used extensively in that discussion and seems to be one of the primary reasons for most of the supporters of the topic ban, your argument doesn't really work. It is everyone else who made this about religion. Silverseren 21:25, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

There were plenty of other opponents of the topic ban who managed to make their case without referencing the supporters' religions, so don't blame "everyone else" for something you alone did. My "argument" is that you shouldn't say things like this about your fellow editors for reasons that should be painfully obvious but apparently aren't. 28bytes (talk) 21:43, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Is it possible to talk with anyone on this topic without the other person becoming increasingly rude? And, yes, it is clearly not "painfully obvious", considering the number of users who are pointing out that it was a valid question (though I clearly worded it badly). Silverseren 21:53, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Apparently not :(

It seems that questioning the impartiality of people who have a personal stake in an outcome is to be labelled "disgusting", and the questioner is to be hounded. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:15, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

• This is clear WP:FORUMSHOPPING. While this response was made before the almost exact duplicate on Wikiquette, it should have never been brought here. As I explained over there, the last quote from me, beginning with "No, it is specifically true" is misquoted and misapplied here and there. That comment is in reference to an incident I was involved in a year ago on Criticism of Judaism, as the comment itself says. I was elaborating on that incident because someone asked, it doesn't apply at all to the topic ban proposal or the discussion at hand.

Furthermore, as I have already elaborated on Wikiquette and received support for such, asking whether someone is biased in a certain situation is not a personal attack. People are continually misquoting or bringing my words out of context and trying to make it seem like I am on the hunt to expose a great Jewish conspiracy or something when I am clearly not. I was merely asking whether, in the case of a discussion about a user who works on anti-Jewish articles, is it proper for the majority of users supporting a topic ban to be self-described as Jewish. That was my original question, whether the sample base is proper in such a case, I was in no way saying that Jews are always biased or whatever is trying to be pinned on me. My original question was one that could have been answered with a simple "Yes, it is" or "No, it isn't". Instead, i'm getting accusations of anti-semitism being thrown at me. I am both offended and appalled at the reaction from a simple question, which is only furthering my reasons for never getting involved in the Israel-Palestine area if accusations and threats of blocking are thrown around as wildly as they have been here. Silverseren 20:06, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

There shouldn't be "anti-Jewish articles" on Misplaced Pages. If an article can't be NPOV, it's got no business being here. 28bytes (talk) 20:36, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Sorry I should rephrase that, articles whose subject is about negative stereotypes of Judaism. There. No reason why said articles can't be NPOV, indeed, all (I would presume) of them are. That's what I meant by anti. Sorry, I should have phrased it better. Silverseren 20:39, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

"...asking whether someone is biased in a certain situation is not a personal attack" - I disagree. Such questions almost always are personal attacks and almost are always wrong, particularly when grounded in looking at their user page to discover that they are... Jewish... or Muslim... or athiest... or American... or... or... or....

And please don't accuse people who bring issues to my attention of forum shopping, particularly when they have very explicitly started out by saying anything similar to "I know that you are now for the most part just one editor among thousands, which I admire and would not wish to compromise." That's the opposite of forum shopping. No one is asking me to do anything, and this is not a "forum" in most cases. Unless someone comes to me with a formal appeal of something (at the right point in the process) or asking me to do something unusual (at the wrong point in the process), it isn't forum shopping, it's just talking to me. It is important that I stay informed, and I don't like it when people are discouraged from talking to me.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:41, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that most Wikipedians use your words as a de facto ruling on a matter, almost on the same level as Arbcom. Because of this, it is hard to view anyone coming to you after having a discussion in multiple other places as anything other than an attempt to use your opinion as a way to sway an argument to their side. If a discussion is one that is initially discussed on your page before elsewhere, that would be different, but it isn't often such a case for things that end up at ANI.

As to your response, so no user can ever question whether another (or other) editors have the possibility of bias in a situation? I understand that this is quite different when talking about articles and how that is inappropriate to ask as such, but I think this sort of situation that involves a topic ban for an editor who works in an area of Criticism articles is a bit different. Of course, the topic ban discussion itself is currently moot since it has been taken to Arbcom.

Let me also note that, in most cases in my opinion, bias is not something that is purposefully applied. Bias most of the time is a propensity to lean toward a decision based on a personal opinion or of personal likes or dislikes, but that doesn't mean it is one that is consciously done. However, that doesn't change the fact that there are many situations where there is a topic for someone where it is almost inevitable for them to be influenced by their own bias about said subject. Silverseren 22:50, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

TEMP vs BLP1E: your thoughts, please?

It is no accident, to my mind, that WP:BLP1E could only have evolved on a separate page to WP:NTEMP; they are in many senses incompatible. A person who is once famous is always famous, says NTEMP, and 1E says if they were only once famous, they were never famous. The former seems more logical to me, but I am interested in hearing your thoughts on the issue. Anarchangel (talk) 16:38, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

IMO, the easy answer is that 1E is policy while NTEMP is a guideline, so if there is a conflict between the two then the former wins. The more involved answer is that when there is a discussion about a 1E person, "notability" is not really germane. It is a given that the person in question has received coverage in reliable sources, otherwise the discussion probly wouldn't be had in the first place. What is central to 1E is of the person is only in the news for this singular incident, and if absent that situation, would they be an otherwise non-notable person. The woman who Gordon Brown called a bigot in last year's UK election does not have an article. The JetBlue steward does not have an article. The woman who was fired from her job because her large breasts were a distraction in the workplace does not have an article. All were in the news, but for only one thing. Tarc (talk) 19:45, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I generally agree with you, Tarc, but I'd say that a person who is 1E isn't notable, rather than saying that in a 1E event, notability is not really germane. But that's a quibble and we arrive at the same answer.

I would argue that NTEMP is slightly wrong. I agree with the general gist of what it is trying to say, but I think it is not stated correctly. I think that notability may not be temporary, and that in general, once notable, ongoing coverage is not necessary. But I don't think a blanket statement that "notability is not temporary" overstates the case, and may actually tend to shortcut the valid debate contemplated in the next section, i.e. allow people to argue "We had a deletion debate in 2003 and the guy was found notable, so now in 2067, you can't say that he wasn't." In the fullness of time, things that seem important to us now may prove to be not so in the future. It's a complex matter that we should be cautious about prejudging.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:51, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

This is an interesting discussion! Tarc's examples of the "bigot woman" Gillian Duffy, the JetBlue steward Steven Slater, and a large-breasted woman named Amy-Erin Blakely are all true, it seems -- none have an article on Misplaced Pages, though the first two re-direct to articles with information about these people, much like Wang Weilin. But, how do other people notable for just one (usually adverse) event seem to slip past the WP:BLP1E policy? For example:

• Hans Van Themsche
• Madanlal Pahwa
• Bjarte Baasland
• Edward Porta
• Richard Marin (investment banker)
• Grandmaster Ratte'
• Sarah Morrison
• Cheryl Sullenger
• Jamale Aarrass
• Ellen Feiss

There are probably hundreds of other examples. Why do you think BLP1E is so haphazard in its application to actual articles? - Wacomshera (talk) 20:59, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Congrats!

Congratulations on being in wikipedia for 10 years yesterday. There should have been a party or celebration in my opinion Pass a Method talk 16:48, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

No, he was on Misplaced Pages the day it started. His original account name was JimboWales (talk · contribs). However, many of the early edits have been lost from the current Misplaced Pages database. Also see this Signpost story. Graham87 02:20, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Might be variety of opinion one way or the other

Are the infamous(/famous) Julian Assange, that blogger Murphy that impersonated David Koch to the governor of Wiz, and/or prankster Mr. O'Keefe "alternative journalists"? I've started a thread on this topic here: Talk:James_O'Keefe#cat.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 15:04, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Jimbo, I've quoted you on the npov noticeboard page here.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 19:17, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

ANI problems

Mr. Wales,

I notice a persistent problem in ANI and WP. When people cannot defend their opinion, they automatically accuse the other side of being a sock. This is funny but sad.

On ANI, there is an issue what to call Kansas State University since the offical name is quite long. I have a reasonable solution (and interest since my dad went there) but can only offer an opinion, which is not what the 2 major people want.

Also on ANI, there is a rather heavy handed handling of Malia Obama. It seems like President Obama doesn't want too much coverage on her (but does mention her regularly and even let her do an interview). There is an issue of whether children should not have articles or whether she is enough of a public figure. However, an article existed, but aome people just removed the article and redirected it without adequate discussion. Furthermore, their main reason is sockpuppetry, not logic.

Mr. Wales, you should bring order in Misplaced Pages and let things be decided rationally, not slightly poorly in the KSU article and very poorly in the Malia Obama article. What is at stake is orderly process in Misplaced Pages, not the specific article, but these articles need your help. Thank you. Ksuoaas (talk) 23:00, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

That's just...false. There has been extensive discussion on the matter on the respective article talk pages. The general consensus is that WP:NOTINHERITED applies, and that while the children have received coverage in reliable sources about schools attended and something recently about growth spurts or whatever it is, that that is not out of the ordinary. They are minors, they derive 100% of their notability through famous parents, and they have not done anything especially notable in their own right to justify separate articles. The insinuation that editors take indirect cues from the President is a bit fanciful. Tarc (talk) 01:05, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

I wish there was some level committee which acted in a capacity similar to the Supreme Court. In other words if lessor means have exhausted, and they accept to hear the case, it is binding and if policy is affected, it must align with the precedent. But ultimately I prefer structure and some form of finality. Do we have such a means? My76Strat (talk) 05:53, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes indeed we do, although I have never before heard them described as a "level committee". For this neologism, My76Strat, we must consider ourselves to be as part of an indebtedness to you, coinciding to accompanied acceptances that permeate our discussion. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 07:12, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Regarding KSU, I have no opinion and have so little interest in the topic that I didn't bother to even visit the talk page. I'll do so if anyone tells me that it's important, but if it is just a routine discussion, I'll stay out of it. :-)

Regarding the Obama children, that touches on WP:BLP issues and I do have an interest there. I think it's important that WP:NOTINHERITED be considered, and that sensitivity to human dignity must play a solid role in our deliberations. Some children of famous people are themselves famous, for better or worse. But we should always be reluctant to write an article just because we can. A good biography doesn't consist of random tabloid facts about a person of interest to the press for not very good reasons. In short, I agree completely with Tarc's answer here.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:57, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Violation of Misplaced Pages CheckUser policy

Dear Jimmy Wales,

Are you aware that Misplaced Pages's CheckUser policy is being violated by someone using the name 'Versageek'?

Anyone who checks the SAQ Talk page can see that neither TurquoiseMountain nor NotRecommended has ever made a comment or edited on the SAQ Talk page, and that neither TurquoiseMountain nor NotRecommended is a SPA. It is therefore obvious that Versageek was snooping into the identities of new Misplaced Pages editors for some other reason, and that he/she made these two false statements to provide cover for his/her flagrant violation of Misplaced Pages's privacy policy in the use of the CheckUser tools. Will this be investigated?

Nina Green50.92.68.21 (talk) 03:36, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Note that User:NinaGreen was banned for a year as a result of the SAQ arbitration case, and that the two usernames mentioned above were found to be her sockpuppets. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:59, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Mr Wales is being asked to investigate Versageek's violation of the CheckUser policy. You should be as concerned about the violation of the privacy of Misplaced Pages editors and the flagrant violation of Misplaced Pages's privacy policy as I am, rather than seeking to shoot the messenger. And as you well know since you were involved, the arbitration was a kangaroo court, as a result of which a whole slew of highly-educated and well-qualified professionals who wished to edit on Misplaced Pages have been banned and continue to be banned one after the other on an almost daily basis. It's an absolute scandal, and people would be shocked if they knew what was going on behind the scenes on Misplaced Pages, particularly when there was a recent appeal made by the Misplaced Pages Foundation because Misplaced Pages was losing editors. Moreover the two usernames mentioned were not 'found' to be sockpuppets. Versageek merely made the assumption that they were sockpuppets. And if they were sockpuppets, one of them had made very significant contributions to more than two dozen Misplaced Pages articles, including the editing of one brand-new article, while the other did no editing at all other than to get rid of a link on an article that no longer worked. Misplaced Pages seems to be on a course of self-destruction when new editors who are making significant contributions and editors who are doing no editing at all are banned alike by administrators who have nothing better to do than to snoop into editors' privacy in violation of Misplaced Pages policy.

And just for the record, one of the two alleged sockpuppets is anything but a Single Purpose Account (SPA), and since the (false) ground for the arbitration decision was that I was a Single Purpose Account, what does that say about the arbitration other than that it was a kangaroo court? Misplaced Pages can't have it both ways -- banning editors on the ground that they are Single Purpose Accounts, and then banning their alleged sockpuppets who are clearly not Single Purpose Accounts. Things are very much out of control on Misplaced Pages when administrators are allowed to ban everyone in sight on self-contradictory grounds. Nina Green50.92.68.21 (talk) 04:15, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Just to make sure I'm totally clear on what's happening here, you're evading a block to protest being blocked? By Arbcom, no less. And your block has been extended before, for exactly the behavior you're exhibiting now. I suppose this is the definition of "last ditch". --King Öomie 04:42, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

The complaint appears to be of the "You don't have a right to try and catch me!" variety. As a member of the ArbCom audit committee (for whom such appeals are intended) I've rerun the CU evidence, and not only confirmed the original two blocks, but blocked an additional sleeper sock in the process. Nina Green, you are not welcome to edit Misplaced Pages at all until and unless your ban has been removed. Trying to complain vaguely about the processes which catch you out violating the sanctions placed upon you is not productive, nor is misconstruing ArbCom sanctions: there is no bright line offense in being an SPA and your sanction involved a long pattern of disruptive behavior. Your chance to disengage from such behavior and edit Misplaced Pages productively has previously been spent. Rather than trying to concoct a reason why it was illegitimate to catch you violating your ban, you'd be better served by reading WP:Standard offer and taking it to heart. Jclemens (talk) 04:59, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Here's the point. Versageek flagrantly violated Misplaced Pages's CheckUser policy, AND lied about it. If that doesn't concern Jimmy Wales, it should concern him. So let's hear what Jimmy Wales has to say about whether he's going to have the matter investigated. Moreover, highly-educated and well-respected professional people who would like to edit on Misplaced Pages continue to be banned as a result of this arbitration on an almost daily basis. Just have a look at the partly locked-down FA status page and the accompanying talk page. People in the outside world would be shocked if they knew this sort of thing was going on behind the scenes in Misplaced Pages. And all of this is in aid of one thing and one thing only, i.e. the small group of editors and administrators who have decided that the SAQ article is going to attain FA status despite the fact that it violates the most important Misplaced Pages criteria for FA status, neutrality and stability. Getting rid of any opposition to the achievement of FA status for the SAQ article was the sole purpose of the kangaroo-court arbitration, which was brought under an allegation that there was a vast conspiracy, an allegation which was immediately and totally dropped the minute the arbitrators accepted the case. Can you imagine a case of any kind in the real world, whether it be a trial or an arbitration, in which the totally absurd and specious grounds on which the case had been brought were dropped, but the case went ahead anyway? I thought not, unless we're talking totalitarian regimes. However that's the modus operandi on Misplaced Pages, and any disagreement with the small group of editors and administrators who are determined to push the SAQ article to FA status is branded as 'disruptive behaviour'. No-one can call attention to the non-neutral point of view of the SAQ article without being branded as 'disruptive' and having their comments moved by officious administrators off the project page and onto the talk page on the ground that they are irrelevant, when in fact they have to do with one of the most important criteria for FA status, which is neutrality. This shutting down of any comment concerning the non-neutrality of the SAQ article is outright censorship and a violation of freedom of speech, and is against everything Misplaced Pages stands for. As for the statement that I had engaged in 'a long pattern of disruptive behaviour', that's just plain baloney, and everyone knows it. I edited on a sustained basis for only A FEW WEEKS, during which time I edited, entirely on my own, an entire Misplaced Pages article, before I was swept into the SAQ arbitration on the specious grounds of a vast conspiracy involving people I'd never heard of, grounds which were immediately dropped as soon as the arbitrators accepted the case. Very Kafkaesque. One day the true story of that absurd kangaroo-court arbitration will come to light. In the meantime, Misplaced Pages is the loser because of all the excellent and well-qualified editors who have been banned, and continued to be banned or threatened with bans on a daily basis as a result of the arbitration. Nina Green50.92.68.21 (talk) 05:38, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh, OK, I see where you took the wrong turn: He's clearly entitled to check on NinaGreen, which quickly leads to the ban-evasion accounts, which were duly blocked. You appear to have assumed he started with the accounts he blocked, which doesn't appear to be the case. Even if your "new" accounts were behaving themselves entirely, they're still blocked, appropriately, after the CU findings. Jclemens (talk) 05:45, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Wikisophical issue

presents what I consider a core issue of a Wikisophical nature - is it up to editors to "know" what a source means, or is it up to editors to use precisely what the source actually states? This has been a long-running discussion with some editors, and my side is that it is up to us to use what is written, not what we know the author meant, but others may clearly differ. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:52, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Without going too deeply into the philosophical question, there is a practical issue here: the only way to "use precisely what the source actually states" if you don't understand it is to quote it. To paraphrase something you have to interpret it. In any case, if you don't know what something means, how do you judge whether it is relevant to the article? AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:15, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

The issue is that one editor finds a source using a particular term does not "mean" the term (in his estimation) - which would, it appears, not be your opinion at all. It is not an issue of paraphrase - he feels the source can not "mean" what the source says in English. Collect (talk) 14:18, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

This isn't something that has a black and white answer. It is entirely possible to directly quote a source while still misrepresenting its meaning; out-of-context "quote mining" is a recurring problem in some contentious areas. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:26, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

There's no right answer to this question. Those who tend towards a strict reading of V and OR will insist we must use a source as written it and keep out our interpretations of it. Those who focus on the context of the claim (also mentioned in V/RS), and care about shades of meaning, will make a case for WP:Editorial discretion or even WP:IAR with the goal of neutrality. This is not unlike the current dispute going on at Pseudoscience, over a quote which says one thing literally but about which there are editorial questions regarding whether the source is doing it in such a way that meets RS and OR 'in this specific context'. A simple solution is to find more or better sources. If that's not possible, try to find another source which can comment on that misuse of terms directly. If that's not possible, hold an WP:RfC at the article. I don't know if the community has resolved this tension in a more philosophical way; indeed, it may reflect different approaches to more than just Misplaced Pages, but to thinking and writing in general. Also, bias comes into play, since one person's quote-mining may be another's quote-finding, and one person's seeing the forest may be another's clouding the issue. Curious if anyone has parsed this better... Ocaasi 16:30, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Let's look at where this came from:

On May 4 Munich celebrated its liberation from Communist terrorism. Crowds thronged the streets and cheered the Government troops, which included a detachment of 800 Austrians. Bands played and national airs were sung outside the palace. (from a 1919 source)

Does this sound as if it talks about something we would call terrorism now? ("On September 12, New York City celebrated its liberation from Islamist terrorism.") No, I don't think so either. It all becomes clear once you remember that the term terrorism started as a description of government actions during the Reign of Terror of 1793/94, and once you consider that 1919 was about half way between that time and now. The term has shifted in meaning, and at the time it was much closer to the original meaning than it is now.

Historical sources must be translated into modern English in the same way that we cannot simply take French sources and read them as garbled English. Unfortunately Misplaced Pages seems to have an increasing problem with literalism of this kind. Hans Adler 16:56, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

IMO, there's a bit of intellectual dishonesty going on if someone is taking that 1919 headline and trying to use it to support the existence of "communist terrorism" today. Word usage changes over time. Context matters. Tarc (talk) 17:25, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

I venture to suggest it's more complex than Hans and Tarc suggest. The 1919 meaning is compatible with some if not all of the currently proposed definitions: see my cites at WP:RSN. Hyperdoctor Phrogghrus (talk) 17:31, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Qwiki ranking higher than Misplaced Pages

For certain random articles and images(found on commons), Qwiki is appearing before Misplaced Pages in the search results of certain search engines. Should Misplaced Pages appear before it's mirrors?Smallman12q (talk) 22:41, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

You know we don't own Google, right? It's entirely down to whoever operates PageRank as to in what order their search results appear. – iridescent 22:48, 29 March 2011 (UTC)