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There

There was a large section that I just deleted regarding "Honey" - the whole thing seemed to be pretty inappropriate for this article User:Gil-Galad 9 June 2006

Vandalism

This page appears to be a target of a few vandals, if it continues it may need to be protected. Cartwarmark 21:39, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

What to call this article

Islamic medicine is not the best name, because it implies that the discoveries made by the early arabs is somehow "islamic", which is a big POV. I origionally proposed Early Arabic medicine, but that was later changed to muslim medicine. Now we are back to the origional title. So, I throw the question at those who changed it. Which title is the best?--Sefringle 01:45, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Your page move was inappropriate on 4 grounds:

1. You just moved the article w/o any discussion whatsoever. ---> Misplaced Pages:Requested moves
2. Your new title was inappropriate as the most notable physician in the article was not arab at all. ---> Al-Razi

Rolex was established in London by a German watchmaker. Yet we still refer to it as "Swiss." Most Islamic contributions came from the arab-dominated regions (e.g. islamic Spain, Egypt and Iraq) especially Baghdad where Al-Razi worked. Thus I don't think there is a problem with calling the article "Arabic Medicine." But I think a "Islamic Medicine" is fine title. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.82.194.166 (talk) 14:16, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

1. "Islamic medicine" doesn't necessarily mean that it "implies that the discoveries made by the early arabs is somehow "islamic"". It implies medicine developed/researched during the Islamic scientist development era. There weren't only arabs who contributed to that! ---> Hindu medicine
2. You are asking people the same question you should have asked yourselves in first place. -- FayssalF - 02:00, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I origionally tried to move it through WP:RM , User:Stemonitis said the result was no consensus dispite the lack of objections, but later said the I could move it if I wanted to:. Second, the title does imply the subject is "islamic." It implies that there is something within Islam that caused these discoveries. That is why maybe "muslim" was more appropiate, but I think their could be a better title.--Sefringle 02:11, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

He said you could move it and it was on another article where no one objected. It may mean that no one had the opportunity to comment as you requested it at 03:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC) while he closed it at 10:16, 29 March 2007 (UTC). People were sleeping, playing w/ their kind? Here you followed an advice based on other circumstances. Here you were reverted.

I have no objections w/ "muslim". -- FayssalF - 02:25, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I object to the move. If we have a look at the references and external links we see that be have:

• Edward G. Browne, Islamic Medicine, 2002, Goodword Pub., ISBN 81-87570-19-9
• Manfredd Ullman. Islamic Medicine, 1978, Edinburgh University Press, ISBN 0852243251.
• Peter E. Pormann and Emilie Savage-Smith, Medieval Islamic Medicine, 2007, Edinburgh University Press, ISBN 0748620664.
• Islamic Medical Manuscripts at the National Library of Medicine

This seems to be the most common name. —Ruud 10:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Though what is the topic of this article? It does not discuss how any medicine is Islamic, meaning a part of the religion of Islam. It discusses the medicinal discoveries of muslims. Muslim medicine is thus more appropiate.--Sefringle 03:51, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

The adjective "Islamic" refers to the Islamic civilization and in no way is meant to imply the medicine itself is in some way Islamic. In fact, I find that the name "Muslim medicine" implies an even stronger connection to Islam (whcih I believe is what you want to prevent.) However, your reply doesn't in anyway refute my argument that "Islamic medicine" is the WP:COMMONNAME of this subject. —Ruud 19:11, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I dont think medieval Islam ever existed. You can say Ancient Islam, or old Islamic Scriptures, but im not sure about medieval.

changes

first the removal of the phrase saying islamic science marked the begining of microbiology. Thats has been removed since at most muslim scientists did was speculate that bacteria may exist, and mind you they had absolutely no clue to what the correst idea of microbes where. So why the removal, simple, merely speculating on something does not constitute the beginning of that field of science, that be like saying greeks and indians initiated atomic theory, since they speculated matter is made of atoms, even they could not prove it and that there theorie were absolutely wrong and philisophical in nature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.36.181.171 (talk) 09:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Smallpox vaccine

Can anybody verify reference 68 (Paul Vallely, How Islamic Inventors Changed the World, The Independent, 11 March 2006.)? The referred text is: "12 ... Children in Turkey were vaccinated with cowpox to fight the deadly smallpox at least 50 years before the West discovered it." If not, this reference, together with the sentence "This was later followed by the first smallpox vaccine in the form of cowpox, invented in Turkey in the early 18th century." should be removed from the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.2.123.224 (talk) 19:40, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

• Ftory told on --Ashashyou (talk) 17:47, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
• Also states that "Lady Mary Wortley Montagu, wife of the British Ambassador to Turkey, observed this third method in the early 1700s and brought it back to England. Although the effects of variolation varied, ranging from causing a mild illness in most individuals to causing death in a few, the mortality and morbidity rates due to smallpox were certainly lower in populations that used variolation than in those that did not.

One person who experienced variolation as a child in the late 1700s was Edward Jenner, a young boy who survived the process and grew up to become a country doctor in England. As a country doctor, Jenner noticed a relationship between the equine disease known as "grease" and a bovine disease known as cow pox."--Ashashyou (talk) 17:35, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• Also states that "In 1717 the germ theory of disease, in particular, being the unconscious offspring of the ancient Eastern faith in specific demons, each possessed of his own special weapon of malignity. Thus the smallpox inoculation introduced into England from Turkey by Lady Mary Wortley Montague in the eighteenth century and its substitute of cowpox inoculation were based on the ancient Indian rite of subjecting people to an artificially induced attack of smallpox to propitiate Sheetula-Mata, the goddess of that torment." This confirms that Turkey was the route of transfer of knowledge about vaccination to the western civilization then to the whole world. --Ashashyou (talk) 17:35, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• Also states that "Lady Mary Wortley Montagu, the wife of the British Ambassador to Turkey and who had once survived smallpox, had her children treated and brought the ideas back to Britain, where research began on how to reduce the inoculation's sometimes-awful side effects."--Ashashyou (talk) 17:35, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• state that "In 1717 inoculation against smallpox instituted in England by Lady Mary Montague after she returns from Turkey, where it was in a popular experimental stage at the time."--Ashashyou (talk) 17:35, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

WPMED assessment

WPMED does not have a process for identifying articles as A class. It also does not consider historical information to be one of the most important articles on Misplaced Pages for this project, which focuses primarily on diseases, medical conditions, and their treatment. I ask that the assessment for WPMED be left as I have set it. If you disagree with it, then please actually read the project's assessment guide here and post a request at the end of that page for reassessment.

Modern day section

Should Medicine in medieval Islam include a "Modern contributions" section? Orpheus (talk) 05:02, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

The modern day section should probably include research regarding the hsitory of Medicine in medieval Islam since the 1900s. Such as how such a notion was regarded mostly non-existent in western lay thought. And aye modern medical contributions should be removed. Faro0485 (talk) 06:59, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

This is a no-brainer. The 'modern contributions' section appears to basically be a puff piece for Muslim scientists to claim how great their research is. This should be a totally different article, if it needs to exist at all. Famousdog (talk) 10:08, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Islamic teachings

medicine in medieval Islam was triggered by Islamic teachings not from other sources like greek or hindu ( maybe little but need proofs ), we saw that Islamic medicines were so high advances that never did before in other places. we should respect islamic scientist achievements without mix with some unqualified claims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shatree (talk • contribs) 22:39, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Innacuracies and claims of "invention" and "being the first"

Some issues with this article.In the "other instruments",it says many of this instruments were invented by Abulcasis.Let´s see:

-scalpel:Known since antiquity,at least by the greeks and romans.

-surgical spoon:known since antiquity

-specula:known since antiquity

-surgical spoon:known since antiquity

-sound:known since antiquity

-surgical rod:knwon since antiquity

-bone saw:known since antiquity

-Forceps:known since antiquity.

Evidence:

Hematology and heredity section

This section claim Abulcasis wrote the first description of haemiphilia.While this may be partially true,he only told a story of a familly who died after bleeding.He did not explain the illness,or provided a cure for it.He just told the story of a case of haemophilia And what is more,the illness was alerady known since antiquity,when Rabbi Judah the Patriarch exempted male infants from circumcision if elder brothers had died as a result of this procedure.Source

Allergology and immunology section

First it´s claimed that "the study of allergology and immunology originate from the Islamic world",which is(excuse my sincerity)bullshit.If we consider that this primitive approaches to be valid,then we have to conclude that immunology can be traced back to ancient babylonians,at least.Evidence here:

Then,it´s calimed that the smallpox vaccine was invented in Turkey in the 18th century.First,this is out of place("medieval" in the title),and second it´s a lie.Vaccination was invented by Edward Jenner,as we all know.What the turks used was INOCULATION,which by the way started in China.It´s not the same as vaccination. The source,Paul Vallely,has been reapetedly criticised.Here there is a link to an article that discalims many supossed islamic inventions,including inoculation:

Then,in the Tracheotomy section,it´s said that abulcasis invented it.This contradicts several evidence that this procedure was know since ancient times. Evidence and

In cancer therapy,It says "Avicenna described the first known treatments for cancer in The Canon of Medicine; one was a surgical method involving amputation or removal of veins",and "Avicenna's Canon also described the first known surgical treatment for cancer"

This are,of course lies.Cancer treatment and surgery is known since(again)ANCIENT times.Even some medieval doctors did it long before Avicenna.Evidence:and

That´s all.I´ll remove those claims,and then will continue studying this article to see if I can find more pro-Islam BIAS.Contact me for more info.--Knight1993 (talk) 18:39, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

#REDIRECT history of medicine

I've redirected this article, for the usual reasons: Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/Jagged_85 provides discussion: having gone back over the history to see where it comes from, I think that too much of the article is Jaggedese and unreliable. I couldn't even see a salvegable stub William M. Connolley (talk) 16:19, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Did you remove content based on a compiled list of revisions committed by Jagged85 to this article ? No you didn't, instead you have removed contributions by many other users as well. Flagged as vandalism, the next time you don't do your "cleanup" properly I'm filing an RfC. Al-Andalusi (talk) 19:11, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I've warned you before that unfounded allegations of vandalism amount to incivility: please mend your ways. I reviewed the article history, saw how much of it was from Jagged, and saw that large amounts of it were unreliable William M. Connolley (talk) 19:35, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

As for "I'm filing an RfC": Aam has already been down that route and failed, as you know full well. Your threats are empty William M. Connolley (talk) 19:37, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

"Islamic medicine" has been widely discussed by academics and deserves its own article. You need to work on trimming the article rather than wiping out history as if it never existed. Al-Andalusi (talk) 19:45, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

You miss the point. I agree that the article probably deserves its own article. I disagree that the current article is it, because it is too badly polluted by Jaggedese. If you care to replace it with an untainted stub, then fine. But please don't keep replacing all the Jagged-junk William M. Connolley (talk) 20:40, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Why aren't you at least keeping the lead and "further reading" sections of the article along with the structure/headings ? Surely, Jagged85 would not have also cooked up the names of books and journals, or did he ?! Of course this is the most extreme case that I had thought of but then you went further and removed the whole thing in one click. This is not a "cleanup" Al-Andalusi (talk) 21:27, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Like I say: If you care to replace it with an untainted stub, then fine. But please don't keep replacing all the Jagged-junk. If you think the lede (not lead) is OK, then consider stubbing it to just that, plus maybe any useful refs. However, that would leave it shorter than the section on the redirect page, so I don't know why that would be useful (though as J8079s points out, the redirect page is poor, too) William M. Connolley (talk) 21:37, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I really am against redirecting an entire article just because it contains some junk by jagged 85

redirecting an entire article, does go against the idea of a Cleanup

in affect by redirecting, you are not really fixing the problem, but ignoring it

in fact it might constitute to stealthy aritcle deletion, without going through proper methods of deleting an article, you will see wikipedia files their "redirect policy" article, under the article deletion section

see here:http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion

if you wanna delete article, please take it to a vote

--Misconceptions2 (talk) 21:18, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

If you don't know whether or not it contains junk, you shouldn't be restoring it. Are you really asserting that the article deserves to be restored, no matter how rubbish it may be? William M. Connolley (talk) 21:30, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I fully support making this a redirect unfortunately it re-directs to a bad section but you can fix it.

To do list

1. add Galen it is Galenic-medicine that is practiced (some times called greco-roman medicine) (Avicennia's name becomes firmly attached to Hippocrates and Galen until Paracelsus burns their books and starts medicine on a new course though not yet "modern")
2. surgery is relegated to the barber shop and will remain there until the 19th century.
3. the hospital is ubiquitous in the Byzantine empire
4. what we have now is vandalism

J8079s (talk) 21:33, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Oppose redirect which is annihilation of an article. Stubbing is the proper procedure and the criteria I understand to apply are here. This criteria should be applied to the version proposed for stubbing. -Aquib (talk) 00:37, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Policy citation for opposition: WP:Redirect Reading Misplaced Pages:Redirect#When_should_we_delete_a_redirect.3F shows ample reasons why this sort of redirect should not be performed. In particular, let me draw your attention to the concern expressed about redirecting articles with ample history. This is the annihilation of an article with ample edit history. -Aquib (talk) 01:33, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Policy citation for opposition: WP:Redirect (ctd) The list of reasons for a redirect does not include the suppression of an article's content. The only reason on the list that comes close to qualifying for the purposes of the people who wish to redirect is Sub-topics or other topics which are described or listed within a wider article. (Such redirects are often targeted to a particular section of the article.). Can anyone who favors redirecting this article make the claim that is their intention?

If so, I would refer them to the introductory statement at Redirects for discussion: Note: If all you want to do is replace a currently existing, unprotected redirect with an actual article, you do not need to list it here. Turning redirects into fleshed-out encyclopedic articles is wholly encouraged at Misplaced Pages. Be bold..

-Aquib (talk) 05:00, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I am posting a warning on User talk:William M. Connolley's talk page. The reasons given for this attempted redirection are not consistent with WP Policy. I am posting a warning on WMC's talk page. Two such warnings by different individuals constitute grounds for an RFC/U. -Aquib (talk) 05:13, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Your threats are empty and your understanding of policy is lacking William M. Connolley (talk) 14:12, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Fix It dont be a wikilawyer

To do list (in no real order)

1. add Galen it is Galenic-medicine that is practiced (some times called greco-roman medicine) (Avicennia's name becomes firmly attached to Hippocrates and Galen until Paracelsus burns their books and starts medicine on a new course though not yet "modern")
2. surgery is relegated to the barber shop and will remain there until the 19th century.
3. the hospital is ubiquitous in the Byzantine empire
4. Tasting urine is not urinalysis
5. see Avicenna Biology and Medicine
6. see Humoralism
7. Prioreschi, Plinio (2001). A History of Medicine: Byzantine and Islamic medicine. Horatius press. ISBN 9781888456042. Retrieved 3 April 2011.
8. Davis, Nathan (2010-05-25). History of Medicine. Applewood Books. ISBN 9781429043786. Retrieved 3 April 2011.

Due process is important. It would be helpful if you revisited your redirects as well. Thanks -Aquib (talk) 13:51, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

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