Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 06:08, 16 April 2011

Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article: You must be logged-in and extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive) You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. Further information The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are: Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive. Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required. With respect to the WP:1RR restriction: Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring. Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence. After being warned, contentious topics procedure can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. Contentious topic sanctions can include blocks, topic-bans, or other restrictions. Editors may report violations of these restrictions to the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard. If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. When in doubt, don't revert!

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Ethnic groups High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks: Here are some open WikiProject Ethnic groups tasks: Meta-tasks: Place the {{Ethnic groups}} template on the talk page of articles within the scope of this project. Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups Articles about ethnic groups that currently have issues needing resolution: Category:Unassessed Ethnic groups articles Category:Ethnic groups articles needing merge action Category:Ethnic groups articles needing infoboxes Category:Ethnic groups articles needing reassessment Category:Ethnic groups articles needing attention Iyer Peruvian people Start an article: Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Article requests Feel free to edit this list or discuss these tasks. Arctic This article is within the scope of WikiProject Arctic, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Arctic on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ArcticWikipedia:WikiProject ArcticTemplate:WikiProject ArcticArctic ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Where are the Arameans?

The Aramean people are the indigenous people of Syria/Lebanon (Aram) and Mesopotamia (Aram Naharaim, Paddan-Aram, Tur-Abdin).

Inclusion criteria

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

The intended purpose of this listing is to provide a survey and overview of various distinct peoples, communities and societies who may be referred to as an indigenous people, even if some other terminology may be in more common use (for example, Native American).

Not every ethnic group article or stub will warrant inclusion in this listing. The term indigenous peoples has a distinct meaning as per the main indigenous peoples article, which is more specific than the general sense of "a people or group considered native to, or originating from, a given place".

The following are criteria suggested as guidelines for determining whether any particular people or group ought to be listed here. These criteria are put forward as an attempt to forestall any need for POV-based inclusion (or exclusion), particularly in cases where the claim to identity as an indigenous people may be contentious, inconsistent or unclear.

• an indigenous people may be identified as such, where notable independent reference(s) can be found that the group's indigenous identity is either asserted or recognised as being indigenous, or some other cognate term, by either:
  1. some government, regulatory body, law or protocol, which may be either sub-national, national or trans-national; and/or
  2. some recognised body, NGO or other organisation, involved with indigenous affairs and recognised as an accredited participant, intermediary or representative in some legal, negotiative, national or international regulatory or rights-based process; and/or
  3. some academic and peer-reviewed literature or publication; and/or
  4. some representative body of the indigenous society itself, where that representation is made in respect of a claim or issue to a government or governmentally-supported organisation (eg the UN, African Union).

That source should naturally be cited on the relevant page (and perhaps here on the listing, also). Where there is (independent) contention about identifying any particular group as an indigenous people, the contention should be noted in the relevant article along with the cited reference(s) in which this contention appears. See Category talk:Indigenous peoples for some further discussion. --cjllw | TALK 04:16, 2005 Jun 20 (UTC)

Content of archives

Please discuss all topics from archives on current talk page.

Archives

Archive 1 (2005-2007)

Archive of past discussion (2005-2007)

• 2 Current listing
• 3 Sorbs (Wends) do not identify themselves as an "indigenous people"
• 4 What should be listed under "Circumpolar North"
• 5 Are Copts considered a people
• 6 Are the Jews an indigenous people? also Talk:List of indigenous peoples/Comments
• 7 No more Ainu on Sakhalin island
• 8 Indigenous Finns?
• 9 Tongans: A problematic inclusion
• 10 Removal of two sub-lists
• 11 Palestinians are indigenous

Archives

Archive 2 (2007-2008)

Archive of past discussion (2007-2008)

Somalis

I recently took the time to weed out all Somali clans out of the list but i have an objection to the inclusion of the Somali people to this list. In my view we somalis are not an indigenous people. Indigenous people are defined in the main article as “a politically underprivileged group, who share a similar ethnic identity different to the nation in power, and who have been an ethnic entity in the locality before the present ruling nation took over power” (Greller, 1997). Somalis do not fit this description, we have our own country in which we are the overwhelming majority. That is why i took the Somali people of this list.Emperorgrey 02:38, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Aymara/Quechua

However much I fear stepping into this discussion I think that it is a bit amusing that the Aymara (and for that matter the Quechua...and the various Kichwa speakers if you want to separate them out) have not made it onto the list or discussion in some form. However much I think this whole discussion is incredibility silly (to the degree that I am completing a PhD on it...which I should be working on now), it surprises me that the group that Bolivia's "first indigenous president" belongs to is not on the list. Indeed the UN Declaration of the rights of Indigenous People party took place in Bolivia at the archaeological site of Tiwanaku with Rigoberta Menchu (who gets to be indigenous according to this list) in attendance along with President Morales. Perhaps this absence stems from the completely laughable and contradictory criteria that an indigenous person must belong to an oppressed minority group within a modern state. Bolivia's indigenous majority and indigenous president, on those terms, makes everyone not indigenous any more. Does self identification win against political and cultural majority? Because indigenous Bolivians sure THINK that they are indigenous and have been feeling pretty good about that lately. According to this list, that probably doesn't matter...unless you are from Tonga.

I am curious: were the Aymara de-listed after Morales was voted in? Politics, politics.

Anyhow, I am loath to debate this so do your research and change what you will. I think lists like this wrongly simplify the fluid nature of cultural identity and allow non-indigenous people to use the concept of indigenousness for their own purposes. Heck I have a phd thesis on Bolivian indigenous archaeology to write. Radiotik (talk) 16:51, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

References for the Inclusion of Palestinians

I've added Palestinians and cited a number of sources for their inclusion. I'll list each sources under the relevant criterion below but before I do I want to address the matter of WP:RS. The guideline says, in part: "The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is the best such source for that context." I make no claims, pro or con, about the general reliability of the sources I cite for criteria 1, 2, and 4 but I do assert the sources are reliable for the specific context for which I cite them here. Regarding criterion 3, the two sources I cite are books published by well-established, mainstream academic publishers. I cannot say for certain that the books in question have been subjected to "peer review" but I am confident they have been subjected to professional in-house editorial review. Also, the criteria for inclusion are "suggested as guidelines," they are not rigid requirements. I submit that Israel/Palestine and the Encyclopedia of Diasporas satisfy WP:RS and criterion 3.

• Criterion 1. some government, regulatory body, law or protocol, which may be either sub-national, national or trans-national; and/or

United Nations (30 June 1978). The Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem: 1917-1988, Part I. New York: United Nations. Retrieved 5 April 2011.

• Criterion 2. some recognised body, NGO or other organisation, involved with indigenous affairs and recognised as an accredited participant, intermediary or representative in some legal, negotiative, national or international regulatory or rights-based process; and/or

Minority Rights Group International (1997). World Directory of Minorities. London, UK: Minority Rights Group International. ISBN 978-18-73194-36-2.

According to their web site, MRGI has "consultative status with the United Nations Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC) and observer status with the African Commission for Human and Peoples Rights".

• Criterion 3. some academic and peer-reviewed literature or publication; and/or

Dowty, Alan (2008). Israel/Palestine. London, UK: Polity. ISBN 978-07-45642-43-7.

Ember, Melvin; Ember, Carol R.; Skoggard, Ian (2005). Encyclopedia of Diasporas: Immigrant and Refugee Cultures Around the World. Vol. 2 Diaspora Communities. New York, NY: Springer. ISBN 978-03-06483-21-9. OCLC 315151735.

Alan Dowty's scholarly credentials are discussed in his Misplaced Pages bio. The Embers and Skoggard don't yet have Misplaced Pages bios but they are cited numerous times as sources in Misplaced Pages.

• Criterion 4. some representative body of the indigenous society itself, where that representation is made in respect of a claim or issue to a government or governmentally-supported organisation (eg the UN, African Union).

The Local Preparatory Committee of Palestinian NGOs in Israel (Undated). Statement submitted to: World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance. Haifa, Israel: Adalah - The Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel. Retrieved 6 April 2011. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

Mossawa Center - The Advocacy Center for Arab Citizens of Israel (June 2006). The Palestinian Arab Citizens of Israel: Status, Opportunities and Challenges for an Israeli-Palestinian Peace (PDF). Haifa, Israel: Mossawa Center - The Advocacy Center for Arab Citizens of Israel. Retrieved 6 April 2011.

DieWeisseRose (talk) 05:12, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

There is a longstanding consensus at Talk:List_of_indigenous_peoples/Archive_2#Request_for_Comment:_Palestinian_indigeneity and Talk:List_of_indigenous_peoples/Archive_2#Proposal_for_inclusion that there is no consensus to add "Palestinians" to the list, for the reasons listed above. Please don't re-add it without gaining consensus to do so. Plot Spoiler (talk) 16:11, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Request for Third Opinion: Dispute with Plot Spoiler

On 5 April 2011, I added Palestinians to the List of Indigenous Peoples of Southwest Asia. Plot Spoiler, six hours later, reverted that and several intermediate edits. On 6 April, I restored the deleted texts and added additional sources. I also left the following message on Plot Spoiler's Talk Page: "... before you again revert my addition of Palestinians to the List of indigenous peoples please explain on the talk page what criteria you feel Palestinans do not meet for inclusion." I also explained on this Talk Page how the references I provided satisfy the criteria for the inclusion of Palestinians. Nevertheless, Plot Spoiler reverted my edits without discussing them on any Talk Page. Plot Spoiler's edit summary simply says, "per longstanding talk page consensus".

I have reviewed this Talk Page and its archives. It's not clear to me that there was any consensus to exclude Palestinians from the list when this was last discussed in 2007. In any case, to quote WP:CCC: "Consensus is not immutable. Past decisions are open to challenge and are not binding."

As an alternative to an edit war I will be requesting a Third Opinion. DieWeisseRose (talk) 02:18, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Your request for a Third Opinion has been removed due to the lack of sufficient discussion about the dispute. As stated at the Third Opinion project, "Before making a request here, be sure that the issue has been thoroughly discussed on the article talk page. 3O is only for assistance in resolving disagreements that have come to a standstill. If no agreement can be reached on the talk page and only two editors are involved, follow the directions below to list the dispute." You are to be commended for taking this matter to dispute resolution rather than prolonging the conflict. If you still feel that you need dispute resolution for this matter, you might want to consider taking it to the content noticeboard or doing a request for comments. Regards, TRANSPORTERMAN (TALK) 16:53, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Criteria has been met

I believe the new sources provided meet the criteria outlined and indicate that an entry for Palestinians on this page is appropriate. I should disclose that I tried a number of times to include an entry for Palestinians but voluntarily desisted after the difficulty I met with in trying to do so. The input of longtime editors to this page on this issue, which was given in the past, would be appreciated now. In the last discussion with some of you before giving up, I sensed that some felt the burden of proof may have in fact been met, but there was hesistance because of the edit-warring that tended to take place when Palestinians were listed, and that there was a desire for more unequivocal proof. Could we hear from you all again now in light of the new material provided? Tiamut 19:49, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

To Plot Spoiler: Concerning Consensus

As I wrote above, I have reviewed this Talk Page and its archives. It's not clear to me that there was any consensus to exclude Palestinians from the list when this was last discussed in 2007. Also, here is a longer excerpt from WP:CCC (emphasis added):

Consensus is not immutable. Past decisions are open to challenge and are not binding. Moreover, such changes are often reasonable. Thus, "according to consensus" and "violates consensus" are not valid rationales for accepting or rejecting proposals or actions. While past "extensive discussions" can guide editors on what influenced a past consensus, editors need to re-examine each proposal on its own merits, and determine afresh whether consensus either has or has not changed.

Revised References for the Inclusion of Palestinians

I've added Palestinians and cited a number of sources for their inclusion. I'll list each sources under the relevant criterion below but before I do I want to address the matter of WP:RS. The guideline says, in part: "The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is the best such source for that context." I make no claims, pro or con, about the general reliability of the sources I cite for criteria 1, 2, and 4 but I do assert the sources are reliable for the specific context for which I cite them here. Regarding criterion 3, the two sources I cite are books published by well-established, mainstream academic publishers. I cannot say for certain that the books in question have been subjected to "peer review" but I am confident they have been subjected to professional in-house editorial review. Also, the criteria for inclusion are "suggested as guidelines," they are not rigid requirements. I submit that Israel/Palestine and the Encyclopedia of Diasporas satisfy WP:RS and criterion 3.

• Criterion 1. some government, regulatory body, law or protocol, which may be either sub-national, national or trans-national; and/or

United Nations (30 June 1978), The Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem: 1917-1988, Part I, New York: United Nations, retrieved 5 April 2011

• Criterion 2. some recognised body, NGO or other organisation, involved with indigenous affairs and recognised as an accredited participant, intermediary or representative in some legal, negotiative, national or international regulatory or rights-based process; and/or

Minority Rights Group International (1997), World Directory of Minorities, London, UK: Minority Rights Group International, ISBN 978-18-73194-36-2

According to their web site, MRGI has "consultative status with the United Nations Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC) and observer status with the African Commission for Human and Peoples Rights".

• Criterion 3. some academic and peer-reviewed literature or publication; and/or

Dowty, Alan (2008). Israel/Palestine. London, UK: Polity. ISBN 978-07-45642-43-7. Palestinians are the descendants of all the indigenous peoples who lived in Palestine over the centuries; since the seventh century, they have been predominantly Muslim in religion and almost completely Arab in language and culture.

Farsoun, Samih K. (2005), "Palestinian Diasporas", in Ember, Melvin; Ember, Carol R.; Skoggard, Ian (eds.), Encyclopedia of Diasporas: Immigrant and Refugee Cultures Around the World, vol. 2, New York, NY: Springer, ISBN 978-03-06483-21-9, OCLC 315151735, The Palestinians are the indigenous people of Palestine.

Forman, Geremy; Kedar, Alexandre (2003), "Colonialism, Colonization and Land Law in Mandate Palestine: The Zor al-Zarqa and Barrat Qisarya Land Disputes in Historical Perspective", Theoretical Inquiries in Law, 4 (2): 491–539

Peled, Yoav (2007), "Citizenship Betrayed: Israel's Emerging Immigration and Citizenship Regime", Theoretical Inquiries in Law, 8 (2): 603–628, Israel is the effective sovereign in the entire area of Mandatory Palestine, and it has incorporated the indigenous Palestinian population of this area into its control system in two different ways: some as second-class citizens of Israel, but most as subjects devoid of rights living under military rule.

Alan Dowty's scholarly credentials are discussed in his Misplaced Pages bio. The Embers and Skoggard don't yet have Misplaced Pages bios but they are cited numerous times as sources in Misplaced Pages. The two journal articles are both peer-reviewed and from Theoretical Inquiries in Law.

• Criterion 4. some representative body of the indigenous society itself, where that representation is made in respect of a claim or issue to a government or governmentally-supported organisation (eg the UN, African Union).

The Local Preparatory Committee of Palestinian NGOs in Israel (Undated), Statement submitted to: World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance, Haifa, Israel: Adalah - The Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, retrieved 6 April 2011, Palestinians are also an indigenous group entitled to the recognition of their historical claims and the receipt of compensation, as outlined in the Draft Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. {{citation}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

Mossawa Center - The Advocacy Center for Arab Citizens of Israel (June 2006), The Palestinian Arab Citizens of Israel: Status, Opportunities and Challenges for an Israeli-Palestinian Peace (PDF), Haifa, Israel: Mossawa Center - The Advocacy Center for Arab Citizens of Israel, retrieved 6 April 2011, Consisting of those who remained and were internally displaced during the creation of the state and their descendents, Palestinian Arab citizens are an indigenous population to Israel.

Removed lie

I have removed a lie inserted by a self-identified Palestinian Arab from this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tgandz (talk • contribs) 21:13, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

You did not remove any lies, you removed sourced facts and added unsourced text instead. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:21, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I removed sourced lies. How can Arabs be indigenous if Jews lived in Palestine before them? Have you never heard of the Kingdom of Israel? As you can see from that page, there were multiple kingdoms of Israel before Arabs invaded the region. Even if Palestinian Arabs somehow are indigenous, which is logically infeasible, how can Jews not be indigenous? Tgandz (talk) 21:39, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Reliable sources show Palestinian are indigenous: Dowty, Alan (2008). Israel/Palestine. London, UK: Polity. ISBN 978-07-45642-43-7. "Palestinians are the descendants of all the indigenous peoples who lived in Palestine over the centuries; since the seventh century, they have been predominantly Muslim in religion and almost completely Arab in language and culture.", Peled, Yoav (2007), "Citizenship Betrayed: Israel's Emerging Immigration and Citizenship Regime", Theoretical Inquiries in Law 8 (2): 603–628, "Israel is the effective sovereign in the entire area of Mandatory Palestine, and it has incorporated the indigenous Palestinian population of this area into its control system in two different ways: some as second-class citizens of Israel, but most as subjects devoid of rights living under military rule." The text you added is unsourced. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:58, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

You have not answered my question: How can Arabs be indigenous to Palestine if Jews lived there before them? Tgandz (talk) 22:01, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

I have showed two reliable sources that show that Palestinians are the indigenous people.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:10, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

• All unassessed articles
• List-Class Ethnic groups articles
• High-importance Ethnic groups articles
• WikiProject Ethnic groups articles
• Unassessed Arctic articles
• Unknown-importance Arctic articles
• WikiProject Arctic articles