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False, unsourced information in article

In this revert, unsourced information is included in the article. Please source each of the following assertions, using quotes from reliable sources. Do so on the talk page.

• The court found that Guede's version of events did not match some of the forensic evidence
• 5 shoe prints
• his shoe prints
• single bed pillow
• under the disrobed body

Thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 17:30, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not for or against inclusion, and frankly, couldn't care less about the case. I don't think information like that should be removed without first seeking consensus on the talk page. Since you have now posted this, if the consensus is for the deletion of the content, then please feel free to delete it. With the current polarization of the article (and this goes to both sides), it would be advisable to seek consensus before removing anything from the article. BelloWello (talk) 17:34, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

How do you know the information is false?LedRush (talk) 18:14, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

At least one of my bulletpoints is directly contradicted by the source that purported to confirm it. Hipocrite (talk) 18:15, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Didn't somebody provide a source (I don't remember if it was good or not) to at least some of these questions above? I'll take a look.LedRush (talk) 18:17, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

purported to source it. Hipocrite (talk) 18:20, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Hipocrite, can you tell us which of your bulletpoints is directly contradicted by the source? A quote would be helpful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:57, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

"Five" is a complete fabrication - an invention by an editor here. Hipocrite (talk) 12:44, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

• That information is based on the Micheli Judgment, in Italian (and expect Italian secondary sources to have similar wording). There has been a bias to avoid the Italian phrases and, thereby, reduce the matches to the same concepts in secondary Italian sources, some of which match the Micheli Judgment phrases, word for word, letter for letter, accent mark for accent mark. Quoting from the Micheli Judgment (in Italian & English):

"Ribadiva poi di aver toccato più o meno dappertutto nella stanza, anche con le mani sporche di sangue, senza tuttavia spiegare come mai una sua impronta si trovasse proprio sul cuscino sotto il cadavere, quando egli ricordava il cuscino regolarmente sopra il letto" in English, " confirmed to have touched more or less everywhere in the room, even with his hands stained with blood, without explaining why his shoe-prints are just under the corpse on the pillow when he remembered the regular pillow on the bed". –Micheli Judgment (filed 26 January 2009)

Again, due to systematically removing key Italian phrases from the article, that action has biased the text to reduce the connections to secondary sources in Italian, and giving the impression, that no where, in the world, do secondary sources exist about the Guede trial. Aha! Now we finally understand the crucial reasons why the key Italian phrases had been added to the article, for each point about Guede's first trial (1 of 3 for him). There is a secondary source in English which mentions this point about the unexplained shoe-prints on the pillow, but I am still looking.
Plus, remember the Micheli Judgment document we cite is an abridged version of the true primary source (106? pages), as a secondary source where all major text is quoted as significant, but the page numbers, and perhaps other details have been omitted, as an editorial choice as to what to drop from the true primary source. Our Micheli Judgment is, in fact, a secondary source (in Italian) where some editor(s) decided all of the text was to be quoted (except page numbers and etc.). -Wikid77 05:57, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

• "Five" is not a complete fabrication and was not invented by an editor. There were a total of five shoe prints found on the pillowcase. The prosecution's expert only found two shoe prints on the pillowcase. Forensics expert Francesco Vinci identified all five by highlighting the fabric using a process called Crimescope. None of these shoe prints represent a woman's shoe size 37 as claimed by the prosecution. The prosecution's expert found one partial shoe print on the edge of the pillowcase. It was that shoe print that was said to be a woman's shoe. The truth is, there were three partial shoe prints. All three partial shoe prints and the 2 full shoe prints match the tread pattern on Rudy Guede's shoes. 3 partials + 2 full = 5 prints all belonging to Guede. Here is Francesco Vinci's full report. BruceFisher (talk) 20:30, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

BruceFisher, do you have any specific, sourced text that you wish to add to this article? pablo 20:58, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Get actual primary source of Micheli Judgment

As you might know, for years, we had been unable to find the true primary source of the Micheli Judgment 28.10.2008 for Guede's first trial (with page numbers). The copy we have been using is a secondary source, at Italian website Penale.it, which omits the page numbers and perhaps other details. I had read the document size was "106 pages" but, now, I have found another document (written in MS Word) which appears to be the "real" primary source but with only 63 pages (page numbers generated by MS Word). It is my understanding that this court document is public domain in Italy; however, you may just wish to view-only the MS Word document from the website (or download file "trib_pg_sez_gp_28_10_08.doc" per Italian public-domain access):

• MS Word file link via Google: http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.camerapenalediperugia.it/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_docman%26task%3Ddoc_download%26gid%3D30%26%26Itemid%3D49&sa=U&ei=ygS5TYOvGM_Atgf6udneBA&ved=0CA8QFjAB&usg=AFQjCNHOHfECLk1XEe00jHCe4Cmfi_8RSg

When I opened the copy with MS Word, it complained that an Italian hyphenation file was missing, and without the same hyphenation, then the auto-generated page numbers might vary somewhat. It might be possible to host a copy at Wikisource, pending the restrictions of the Italian copyright law, which I believe some of our current MoMK editors have reviewed. At Wikisource, perhaps the MS-Word format could be converted to wiki-text format, adding equivalent page numbers and <hr> ruler-line page separators, and the hyphenation file would no longer be an issue. The first line of each paragraph is indented by about 7 letters. More later. - (06:53, 28 April 2011) Wikid77 revised 16:25, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

The following sources contiain information that should be included

Since this morning I've done some reading regarding the case. The following sources list information that I believe should be included in the article.

• Amanda Knox Framed CBS News
• OPINION: An Innocent Abroad New York Times
• Amanda Knox appeal: Police, prosecutors botched case KATU
• Investigators: DNA at center of Knox appeal KING-TV

These are all reliable sources the shed light on the situation. BelloWello (talk) 06:25, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Uh, I am not opposed to such sources (although some appear to be opinion pieces). But what content are you proposing?? :) --Errant 08:35, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Echo that - although this page is not currently protected, it is much more constructive to propose specific additions and amendments here first.
We need to be very careful with op-ed pieces, they are mainly sources for the opinion of the author ... pablo 09:03, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

The first one contains important information about the fact that the authorities seemed to be considering her guilty before the trial, going as far as to put her image up on their trophy list, giving substantial question to the fairness of the trial. BelloWello (talk) 21:00, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, from "Crimesider", the TMZ-ish investigative arm of CBS that has what is essentially an opinion piece about a photograph placement. Of what use is this to the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tarc (talk • contribs) 13:10, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

In a case where there has been much controversy over the conduct of police and the prosecutor, evidence that shows that the Police had assumed the guilt of an individual before they charged her seems incredibly relevant. That this fact has been picked up by many reliable sources, not just this one, seems to support that.LedRush (talk) 13:57, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Head investigator Edgardo Giobbi determined, in his mind, the guilt of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito before he had even begun to collect or analyze any actual evidence. This decision of guilt was achieved before Edgardo Giobbi had even heard of Rudy Guede. Edgardo Giobbi boasted: “We were able to establish guilt by closely observing the suspect's psychological and behavioral reactions during the interrogations. We don't need to rely on other kinds of investigation as this method has enabled us to get to the guilty parties in a very quick time." BruceFisher (talk) 20:19, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Adding cross-claims of suspects jointly

I think claims of the suspects, against each other, need to be added together in the article, not just Guede's version first. Over the past several months, I have tried to describe the reasons why Guede was judged guilty, as logically the first fully convicted (in 3 trials), and various people have resisted the additions, beginning last year. Then some observers claimed that by other people removing any text which made Guede look guilty, then "Knox would seem more guilty" (perhaps) in comparison to pruned Guede text which left him seeming totally innocent. Recently, I have noticed that as Guede progressively changed his story, from the interview in Germany, where he stated, "Amanda Knox was not in the house that night" to later claims of hearing "her voice" with his iPod headphones turned to high volume (which the judges really wondered how), then he becomes a BLP witness against Knox. However, text could be added to the article to also give Knox's version of events. When Knox attended Guede's first trial, she stated she thought Guede would shoulder blame for the murder, and confess to being the one, as she said, "There was one day when I thought Rudy was going to confess, I was shouting for joy." (source: "DNA on Meredith Kercher's bloodied bra was due to lab contamination", Telegraph, 24 Oct. 2008, Tel3). So, instead, if text is continually removed from the article which shows Guede radically changing his story (180 degrees) and how judges concluded that Guede's version did not match reality of some forensic evidence, then by omitting text which undermines his credibility as a BLP witness, then it might seem he always told a consistent version, as never refuted by evidence (not true) because Judge Micheli noted Guede insisted Kercher was fully clothed when stabbed, but blood spatter was found on her removed bra and bare skin, still wearing her 2 T-shirts rolled up to her arms, not blood spatter as fully dressed. I'm not saying the judge's conclusion is "true" but just we cannot omit such text when knowing that omitting the court conclusion would slant away from NPOV-balance and give the impression that none of Guede's claims were refuted. Similarly, we cannot omit Knox's version that she thought Guede would confess during his first trial. Hence, all related text should be added, together, as a balanced set to provide an NPOV-neutral view of the events. NOTE: None of this is WP:OR or WP:SYNTH because the sources already state the implied conclusions of guilt or innocence, or revisionism. Any thoughts or other related testimony? -Wikid77 16:25, 28 April 2011, revised 16:25, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand what you actually want to change. Please make a proposal to add, remove or edit text on the talk page. Thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 16:29, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

If Guede originally stated that Knox wasn't in the house, that should definitely be noted in the article.

I also think it is notable that he stated that Kercher had all of her clothes on, but that the judge concluded otherwise because of where the blood was.

Regarding Knox's feelings that she thought that Guede was innocent, I'm not sure what that adds to the article and why it is notable. She could be excited because if Guede took the fall, she would get out of jail despite the fact that she killed Kercher. To me, it doesn't really add and commentary that allows me to understand the case or the controversies. But, as I said, I think the other information can be very useful.LedRush (talk) 16:34, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Wikid, please actually propose the specific text you wish to add. pablo 19:40, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

• I suggest to add a section "Statements of suspects about each other" where all the statements would be collected, together, to avoid issues of NPOV balance if that text, instead, were scattered so that readers might not realize all suspects made some statements about some others. -Wikid77 16:25, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Wikid, please actually propose the specific text you wish to add. pablo 18:40, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

60% of American Students say that Knox Case Would Have Some Impact on Choice to Study in Italy

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/27/amanda-knox-case-study-abroad-italy-_n_854298.html

Is this better for this article, or one on Amanda Knox?LedRush (talk) 19:09, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Y'know, by my rough tally, you and Wikid77 have initiated 2/3rds of the topics that are currently on this page, the last 2 by you minutes apart. Do you think it might be a good idea to bring closure to existing topics before opening so many new ones? I note several above that never even received any responses at all. Tarc (talk) 19:34, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

By my rough tally, these are the only two active topics I've opened here. This question seems disruptive here...can we move this to my talk page? Or can you start a new section so as not to hijack mine?LedRush (talk) 19:39, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

It strikes me as peripheral at best. pablo 19:45, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I am strongly concerned that the results of the poll are being misreported. The poll doc can be read at and even a cursory review leads me to discount usage of this poll to generalize to the extent presented (in fact, any usage at all seems highly suspect). I can go into detail, but the methodology of the pool is irredeemably poor - of course, since it's a poll by an advocacy organization, the goal isn't data. Hipocrite (talk) 20:30, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Is Loyola University an advocacy organization, or is the Italy-USA Foundation an advocacy organization? What do they advocate? Studying in Italy?LedRush (talk) 20:36, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

• Full article here, original Italian page here (as far as I can tell, the first is a full word-for-word translation of the second, and not just paraphrase). LedRush, where would the information go - "Media coverage", or elsewhere? That said, Pablo may have a point about the information being "peripheral". SuperMarioMan 20:37, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Further, attributing the poll to "Loyola University" is problematic, as it appears to be a poll by two undergraduate students at Loyola University. Hipocrite (talk) 20:39, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I would think it would go in the Media Coverage section. If not, an article on Amanda Knox.LedRush (talk) 20:42, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I am opposed to any inclusion of this ham-handed poll, conducted by two college students without, apparently, any oversight or control, in our article. Hipocrite (talk) 20:44, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

The information would seem to be much more relevant to this article than a prospective Knox article, although Hipocrite's concerns seem to be something to consider first. SuperMarioMan 20:56, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

• I support inclusion of this poll as a valid indicator of the effects of the case in Italy. A good way to handle it would possibly be to create a section called "Reactions," which would include the current "Reaction of the Kercher Family" section, information about this relevant poll reported on by reliable sources as well as any other reactions we can find that satisfies due weight. I take exception to calling it a "ham-handed" poll unless reliably sourced criticism of the poll in this manner can be found, in which case both the poll and criticism should be mentioned. BelloWello (talk) 20:57, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

The poll was not conducted in Italy. Have you reviewed the poll document? Hipocrite (talk) 20:58, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Does it matter? It's been reported in reliable sources. I have reviewed the Huffington Post and Worldcrunch articles. That is sufficient. BelloWello (talk) 21:10, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

While the threshold for inclusion is verifiability, not truth, that does not mean we include false statements. Hipocrite (talk) 21:11, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if Hipocrite thinks it's a valid survey or not, what matters is what reliable sources report. BelloWello (talk) 21:23, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

• I don't think this poll should be included. The results are extremely vague. We could just as easily say that 70% of students say that the Knox case has little or no effect on whether people will study abroad in Italy. With the No percentage being higher than Yes (by quite a bit!), it's pushing a POV to go with the original proposal. Going to the source for HP, it says that the "little" choice would be some impact, but not determining. Hipocrite's comment about it being done by undergrads is also a red-flag. Nope, shouldn't be included. Ravensfire (talk) 21:07, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, the sources say it was done by Loyola and the Foundation. Even if it were conducted by undergrads, I don't know why undergrads can't conduct surveys like this, and we have no evidence either way of what supervision they had or didn't have. I do know that I had several articles and survey results published in logisitics, transportation and economic journals when I was an undergrad and I never received criticism based on that fact.

Raven is right that the results could be phrased in different ways, but the end results are the same.LedRush (talk) 21:18, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Those sources are objectively and provably wrong. The poll was not conducted by the University. While the threshold for inclusion is verifiability, not truth, that doesn't mean we insert false information. Also, I don't think you published alone - there was a lead author who was a grad student or professor/professional economist, right? Hipocrite (talk) 21:24, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Sometimes they were listed as a co-author, sometimes there was a footnote explaining my supervision (really, others' contributions) and sometimes I got published on my own just by sending my stuff around.LedRush (talk) 22:03, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't know that the source is provably wrong. I've just seen a pdf cover sheet of the results. Is that all you're going from?LedRush (talk) 22:03, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

No, it's not. 22:09, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Why the poll cannot be used to say "60% of American Students" anything

The poll document is located at http://www.italiausa.org/do.download.php?id=559 Read it first.

Thanks for reading it. Let's start with the sample weighting. Let's begin with the first question "What is your gender?"

• The gender gap in college is substantial and well studied. Evidence has resulted in a 58-42 female/male ratio. This poll would be a massive outlier - arguing that merely 24% of college students were male.

"What year are you in school?"

• While there are general variances in college admission over time, it is reasonably small. While there are a number of students who take "fifth" and further years and call themselves seniors, very few students repeat years other than the last. This would lead one to assume a year preference of F S J S O of x x x y z. The poll resulted in over two and a half times as many Sophomores as Freshman. Did colleges really shrink that much?

"Do you think that boycott campaigns against Italy, like that of Donald Trump, can have real effects on the collaboration between Italy and the United States?"

• This is a two part question. The first is "Are you aware of boycott campaigns against Italy?" Then "Are you aware of the Trump Boycott" then "Do you think it will have any effect?" By lumping three questions into one, you can only state that individuals made aware that Trump was boycotting Italy believed it would X.

"Do you think that the controversies coming from the news about the trial of the American student Amanda Knox, whom many people think to be innocent, will some way discourage study abroad in Italy?"

• I leave the analysis of the key question to the reader.

Further problematic items:

• Are you aware that there is a European Parliament?
• Are you aware that out of the many European institutions there is a European Commission?
• Do you agree with an establishment of the G2 forum between the United States and China, both of which represent the two greatest world powers?

Hope that helps. Hipocrite (talk) 21:09, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

If entered into the article, it would have to say that 60% of the American students interested in studying in Italy....that explains why more women are interested and why different classes of students are represented.LedRush (talk) 21:13, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

That's not an accurate description who took the poll. Where did you get it from? Hipocrite (talk) 21:16, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

In my link above: "Conducted by the Rome campus of Loyola University and the Italy-USA Foundation, the study "American Students' Thoughts on Italy" looked into overall attitudes of potential young visitors to Italy."LedRush (talk) 21:20, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

But that's objectively false. Further, since when did "potential young visitors" equal "interested in studying in Italy," exactly? Hipocrite (talk) 21:25, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

"...looked into overall attitudes of potential young visitors to Italy.", but what does that mean? It's pushing it to get interested in studying in Italy from that. Potentially, *I* could go and study abroad in Italy. I'm not, however, interested. Hence my questions below. Ravensfire (talk) 21:27, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't really know what you two are on about...I've explained why there would be a descrepency between males and females and between class representation. It's not a conspiracy or some I don't see what parsing my word choice accomplishes when I am not suggesting a specific edit to the article (and I think the word choice is fine, btw..."A sampling of 800 American students were asked if the Knox case would affect their decision of whether to study in Italy".)LedRush (talk) 21:59, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Addressing the first few concerns:

The gender gap in college is substantial and well studied. Evidence has resulted in a 58-42 female/male ratio. This poll would be a massive outlier - arguing that merely 24% of college students were male."

Are we sure that this isn't the makeup of previous participants for study abroad in Italy?

While there are general variances in college admission over time, it is reasonably small. While there are a number of students who take "fifth" and further years and call themselves seniors, very few students repeat years other than the last. This would lead one to assume a year preference of F S J S O of x x x y z. The poll resulted in over two and a half times as many Sophomores as Freshman. Did colleges really shrink that much?

Or maybe this is because after the Sophomore year is the most popular time to study abroad? That has been my personal experience as a student currently considering studying abroad.
Again, let's not get into an argument regarding the poll. That's what reliable sources are for. BelloWello (talk) 21:29, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

So you agree that the poll cannot be generalized into "60% of American Students," as you have now assumed that it polled only people who expressed a desire to study abroad in Italy? A "yes" or "no" answer will suffice. Hipocrite (talk) 21:32, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

We should say what reliable sources say, in this case, I think it should say something along the lines that "A study conducted concluded that a 60%..." etc. I'll leave the exact wording to someone else. BelloWello (talk) 21:34, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

So, to summarize, it is your opinion that our article should include information known to be false if a purportedly reliable source said that information was true? Hipocrite (talk) 21:36, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I decline to give any credence to wikipedia editors second guessing reliable sources, yes. Unless there is question about the content (like, another reliable source debunking it), I think it shoudl be assumed to be correct, despite any misgivings that may be present. BelloWello (talk) 21:44, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

To add a few more concerns, good studies will also mention some details about who they surveyed - what criteria did they use? How were they chosen? I can only see that 800 students were surveyed. Loyola only? Chicago schools only? Schools that send students abroad to Italy only? All colleges? Ravensfire (talk) 21:15, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

• As I said above, it doesn't matter if wikipedia editors thinks it's a valid survey or not, what matters is that reliable sources reported it. If you guys are qualified to critique surveys, then you should publish your concerns in a WP:RS and then come back here (although then you would have a COI). We should include it, and if there is criticism of it in reliable sources, include mention of that too. BelloWello (talk) 21:23, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

We also don't blindy put everything in, editors are supposed to use some discretion! This is a bad survey. Period. Curious, would you object to adding 70% of prospective students say the case is not a determining factor in their decision? That too is supported. (And yes, I would also object to adding that statement). Ravensfire (talk) 21:30, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't see that as being a prohibitive factor. We just play with the language to ensure that people understand that only 13% said it was a big factor and 47% said it was a little (or whatever it is). I'm not super-invested in getting this in, BTW. While some of the criticisms are valid, some seem misplaced.LedRush (talk) 21:35, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Was that reported on by reliable sources as well? I didn't see it, but maybe it was there in the two articles that I reviewed and simply glanced over that mention (which would imply it wasn't emphasized...). BelloWello (talk) 21:32, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

• If an addition to the article is sought, the phrasing will need to be precise. It will have to reproduce the text of the question and offer a full breakdown of the responses. Inserting a statement of either ~60% (at least mildly) affirmative or ~70 (at most mildly) affirmative would have the potential to be misleading. Greater precision would be of benefit to readers - this would extend to the need to cite the fact that only 800 people in total were polled. SuperMarioMan 22:08, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

• I see no statistical credibility to this poll, nor any real relevance to an article that is about the "murder of Meredith Kercher", if anyone needs a reminder. The scope of the article is about the case and the participants, not peripheral nonsense such as this. Tarc (talk) 13:04, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Where where these young people found. Other than not having been to Italy there is no clue. How did the students in Rome select students in America?

• Ask more females: more likely to empathise with a female in prison.

• Previous question is about the boycott. Putting avoiding Italy in the respondent's mind. Oldest trick in the book for surveys.

• Question says "who many think is innocent". Adding fear of Italian justice.

• Question says "in some way discourage study". Some people have said that they will never go to Italy because of this. So everyone who is aware that someone else has said that they would avoid Italy should answer Yes. Others have said it will affect them so the answer should be 100% Yes. The question does not ask whether it will have any effect on them personally. Kwenchin (talk) 15:21, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

The phrasing of some of the questions - the one regarding Knox in particular - would not appear to be neutral. Inclusion of the clause "who many think is innocent" could quite easily have led some of those polled to answer in the affirmative, when under different circumstances they may have been inclined to opt for something else. I am doubtful that the proposed addition has much to offer; if it must go in, there should be a full citation of the original question. SuperMarioMan 15:43, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Is this just your personal speculation/original research or are there reliable sources who say the same thing? Because, frankly, I don't give a crap what other editors think of a study, but if they can bring a reliable source to back up their claims, at that point it means something. BelloWello (talk) 01:10, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

On the contrary, it is the interpretation of quite a few others here, as earlier comments will indicate. Also, the onus is on those in favour of the addition of this data to disprove the concerns raised and prove that the addition would be worthwhile. Since I am in opposition to inclusion, there is no burden of evidence on me. SuperMarioMan 01:26, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

• Opinion polls are problematic at the best of times as they are very susceptible to bias, based on the way the poll is worded and the sample selected to take part. I agree with the several editors who have stated that this poll should not be included in this article for these reasons. If the poll attracted major and serious coverage by reliable sources I might change my mind. At the moment it is just a poll. I could do one myself and publish it, and the results from my poll wouldn't be notable for inclusion here either. --John (talk) 17:09, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

The difference being that the poll being discussed was published by reliable sources. Your poll would lack that credibility. Why is it that 2 reliable sources are good for some edits but others require "major and serious coverage?" BruceFisher (talk) 20:10, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I would agree with those editors who think that the poll should not be included, for the reason that the poll is not of a random sample, is not objective in its wording, and therefore does not produce a result worth quoting. Quywompka (talk) 16:58, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Setting notability limits for inclusion in MoMK

At this point, it might be good to talk about how many major news articles about an event (survey, book, film) are needed to reach notability within an article (not "individual notability" but inside the same article). Should we consider a film mentioned by 3 reliable sources as notable for inclusion, or just 2 (etc.)? For instance, if only one news report identified a possible "5th suspect" because one of the other 14 fingerprints hit a match to someone finally arrested on a new criminal charge, should that 5th subject be noted in the article. Or, if a news report claimed some witnesses felt compelled to say Kercher's Italian boyfriend was really in town that night early, when he claimed an alibi as being out of town since 29-Oct-2007 (perhaps just to avoid police harrassment), should that go in the article based on 1 news report? There were 13 unmatched fingerprints, so the expectation is that if an "accomplice" had no prior record but continues and gets fingerprinted for a new crime, then that would legitimately be the 5th suspect, and Rudy might be right saying it was some "short Italian guy with no glasses...wearing a white cap with a red stripe, black jacket with logo Napapijri" (needing money from Kercher's room) but Rudy only said "looked like R.S." to get his 30-year term cut to 16 years. Because... you may already know there are single sources out there that discuss a possible 5th suspect observed that night (among 39,000 students), and people wonder why didn't Rudy name him, unless it seemed an easier acquittal to name the current suspects. To me, it seems there is a town of "39,000" suspects, and 13 unmatched fingerprints, etc. So, again: how many news reports are needed to claim an issue is notable enough for the article? Does anyone think we should add a paragraph about a 5th suspect yet? -Wikid77 07:51, 29 April 2011, revised 16:06, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

As this article is about the murder, the investigation, and some of the counterclaims of a frame or setup, no, I don't think we need to delve down into every wild theory that comes down the wire. This is not a venue to try to exonerate a suspect. Tarc (talk) 13:07, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

I did not use the term "wild theory" to describe a reliable source. This is not a venue to suppress information which might exonerate a suspect. -Wikid77 16:25, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

When you're talking about a criminal case, someone's really only a suspect when the police say they are a suspect. There's enough media hyperbole and crap in the article already, we should be trying to keep garbage out, not add it in. STRONGLY concur about Tarc's last point. Ravensfire (talk) 14:01, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

There's definitely not enough for a section on a fifth suspect (unless I'm missing a slew of RSs on the issue). However, if there are 14 unmatched fingerprints in the apartment, I don't see why that wouldn't be included. I would imagine such inclusion would be a part of another sentence (i.e., very short), make no claims associated with this fact (e.g., someone else did it), and be substantiated by RSs (I haven't seen any yet).LedRush (talk) 14:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Mentioning the unattributed fingerprints will imply to readers that they are somehow connected to the crime. But we don't have any reliable sources making that connection. It would just be speculation on our part. --Footwarrior (talk) 00:53, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Just state it as a statement of fact. There were fingerprints that were not connected to any of the suspects. We don't have to speculate anything. BelloWello (talk) 01

06, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

The crucial word is "connection". Certainly there is all manner of "facts" that could be added to the article, but without discussion (not simple mentions) in reliable sources, the advantages of adding detail do not compensate for the disadvantages of filling out and bloating the article text. SuperMarioMan 01:16, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Certainly unidentified fingerprints in the house are more relevant than fruit juice? Regardless, I want to see the RSs and how they use the info. The rest of this conversation is speculative until we see the RSs.LedRush (talk) 01:21, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I don't deny that it's a much weightier point than juice. There is probably little about the case that is less worthy of inclusion than juice... SuperMarioMan 02:13, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Wikid, please provide links to sources that discuss the fifth person (and that state that they are a 'suspect') and sources that discuss the unidentified fingerprints. pablo 06:55, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

• The description comes from the Micheli Judgment 28.10.2008 (filed 26 January 2009), in the Italian (page 17-18):

Descriveva il soggetto in questione come di poco più basso di lui, di corporatura analoga, con jeans chiari, una giacca nera marca “Napapijri” di cui aveva notato il logo, una cuffia bianca recante una striscia rossa nel mezzo e i capelli - che si intravedevano al di sotto - di colore castano: non era in grado di fornirne una descrizione migliore proprio a causa dell’aggressione in atto, che lo aveva indotto a prestare attenzione a non essere ferito, anche se l’uomo lo aveva attinto di striscio alla mano destra. Peraltro, l’illuminazione era piuttosto bassa, perché di acceso vi era soltanto una abat-jour nella camera della vittima. –Micheli Judgment, p. 17-18

English: " described the person in question as a little shorter than him, of similar build, with light jeans, a black jacket marked "Napapijri" which he had noticed the logo, a white cap with a red stripe in the middle, and his hair - which could be seen below - pale brown: he was not able to provide a better description on account of the attack in progress, which prompted him to be careful not to be hurt, even as the man had struck at his right hand. Moreover, the lighting was quite low, because there was only an abat-jour in the bedroom of the victim. –Micheli Judgment, p. 17-18

Other sources are difficult find, all these years later; however, obviously such details were discussed in reliable sources (think: After Guede described the clothes, would reliable sources really fail to mention that?). As for fingerprints, begin with source from ABC News, "Testimony at Amanda Knox Trial Centers on Prints, DNA" (by Ann Wise, Perugia, Italy, 8 May 2009, web: ABC25): stating "A total of 61 prints were taken... at the scene of the crime. ... all but 13 were identified...." continuing "Five prints belonged to Sollecito... two of which were found on the outside of Kercher's bedroom door." -Wikid77 16:25, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

It's not really good enough, though, to merely state that "obviously such details were discussed in reliable sources" and "After Guede described the clothes, would reliable sources really fail to mention that?" - it needs to be referenced directly in the article. pablo 18:30, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Reading other websites which link reliable sources

I recently noticed a list which has several WP:Reliable sources linked in the right margin at SeattlePI.com, here:

• "Rudy Guede: Amanda Knox was not there", SeattlePI.com, April 28, 2011, web: SPI-28.

That webpage, describing the many times that Guede reportedly changed his version of events, has links to numerous new reports and other sources which report Guede's version of events, from the Internet Skype calls in November 20007, his interrogation by the German police, and his changing statements regarding his trials, such as the first appeal trial when he claimed he heard Amanda Knox's voice in arguments, while he was listening to hip-hop songs in his iPod earphones with the volume turned up, but only moved when he later claimed to hear cries (Italian: grida). His admission of giving the false information to the police in Stuttgart (Germany) is also noted in the Micheli Judgment 28.10.2008 (filed 26 January 2009):

"tanto da aver reso false generalità (su consiglio di altre persone di colore, non meglio indicate, che gli avevano anche suggerito di presentare domanda di asilo) in occasione di un controllo da parte della Polizia di Stoccarda;"
English: "that he had given false information (on the advice of other people of color, not further indicated, that they had also suggested he apply for asylum) during questioning by the Police in Stuttgart". –Micheli Judgment

Hence, by reading other webpages, some difficult-to-search reliable sources can be found, to provide footnotes for the text. -Wikid77 16:06, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

• Again, your source "...is a seattlepi.com reader blog" and anything else but a wp:RS.TMCk (talk) 13:20, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Request for advice and tiny bit of help

What I'm hoping to do, off and on, over the next week, is go through the article looking for statements that are soured poorly... either unsourced or sourced to a tabloid... and improve the sourcing. I think the best way to do that will be to attempt to dual-source the statements to both Candace Dempsey's Murder in Italy and Barbie Latza Nadeau's Angel Face. It seems safe to say that both of these books are WP:RS, as they are published by traditional publishers and are both used extensively already in the article. As an additional plus, they are diametrically opposed conclusions, which means that if they both agree on something, it's pretty solid unless there is new information which has come out post-publication.

Here's my problem: I only have the kindle versions, and kindle books don't all have page numbers. In this particular case, Angel Face has page numbers, while Murder in Italy does not. This is a bit of a hindrance to me, because I don't think citing "locations" from Kindle is appropriate for a general audience.

What should I do? Here's what I am thinking: I can propose edits here, and someone with access to page numbers can fill them in for me, and then I can make the edits to the article. Alternately, if someone is willing to work with me offline, who has a copy of Murder in Italy, we can test several locations in the book to figure out if there is a simple formula that maps one to the other.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:35, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

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