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view · edit Frequently asked questions Misplaced Pages's Manual of Style contains some conventions that differ from those in some other, well-known style guides and from what is often taught in schools. Misplaced Pages's editors have discussed these conventions in great detail and have reached consensus that these conventions serve our purposes best. New contributors are advised to check the FAQ and the archives to see if their concern has already been discussed. Why does the Manual of Style recommend straight (keyboard-style) instead of curly (typographic) quotation marks and apostrophes (i.e., the characters " and ', instead of “, ”, ‘, and ’)‍? Users may only know how to type in straight quotes (such as " and ') when searching for text within a page or when editing. Not all Web browsers find curly quotes when users type straight quotes in search strings. Why does the Manual of Style recommend logical quotation? This system is preferred because Misplaced Pages, as an international and electronic encyclopedia, has specific needs better addressed by logical quotation than by the other styles, despite the tendency of externally published style guides to recommend the latter. These include the distinct typesetters' style (often called American, though not limited to the US), and the various British/Commonwealth styles, which are superficially similar to logical quotation but have some characteristics of typesetters' style. Logical quotation is more in keeping with the principle of minimal change to quotations, and is less prone to misquotation, ambiguity, and the introduction of errors in subsequent editing, than the alternatives. Logical quotation was adopted in 2005, and has been the subject of perennial debate that has not changed this consensus. Why does the Manual of Style differentiate the hyphen (-), en dash (–), em dash (—), and minus sign (−)? Appropriate use of hyphens and dashes is as much a part of literate, easy-to-read writing as are correct spelling and capitalization. The "Insert" editing tools directly below the Misplaced Pages editing window provide immediate access to all these characters. Why does the Manual of Style recommend apostrophe+s for singular possessive of names ending in s? Most modern style guides treat names ending with s just like other singular nouns when forming the possessive. The few that do not propose mutually contradictory alternatives. Numerous discussions have led to the current MoS guidance (see discussions of 2004, 2005, 2005, 2006, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2008, 2008, 2009, 2009, 2009, 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2017, 2017, 2018, 2018, 2019, 2021, 2022). Why doesn't the Manual of Style always follow specialized practice? Although Misplaced Pages contains some highly technical content, it is written for a general audience. While specialized publications in a field, such as academic journals, are excellent sources for facts, they are not always the best sources for or examples of how to present those facts to non-experts. When adopting style recommendations from external sources, the Manual of Style incorporates a substantial number of practices from technical standards and field-specific academic style guides; however, Misplaced Pages defaults to preferring general-audience sources on style, especially when a specialized preference may conflict with most readers' expectations, and when different disciplines use conflicting styles.

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Manual of Style

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Compromise on WP:REFPUNC?

Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (footnotes)#Compromise on WP:REFPUNC? -- Jeandré, 2011-03-21t12:46z

Capitalization of "Congress", "Parliament", etc.

The words Congress and Parliament should be capitalized when referring to national law-making bodies, even though the full name of the institution ("United States Congress", "Parliament of Canada") is not mentioned. Examples:

• "Headquartered in Washington, D.C., AVC was able to frequently testify before Congress, file briefs in major court cases, and provide legal aid to minority veterans in the South." (American Veterans Committee)
• "The scandal pitted Congress against the Bush White House, generating a series of constitutional issues." (Dismissal of U.S. attorneys controversy)
• "Holt spent 32 years in Parliament, including many years as a senior Cabinet Minister, but was Prime Minister for only 22 months." (Henry Holt)
• "Bonar initially became frustrated with the slow speed of Parliament compared to the rapid pace of the Glasgow iron market" (Bonar Law)
• "The committee found the Government to be in contempt of Parliament" (Canadian federal election, 2011)

Another editor believes that the MOS requires "parliament" to be written with a lower-case p in the last example on the basis that it is not a proper noun and the MOS provides that "generic words for types of government bodies do not take capitals". Therefore the MOS should be clarified to provide that a short form referring to a specific, unique institution such as Congress or Parliament does take a capital letter. In addition, the terms "Government" should be capitalized when referring to the political apparatus of a party in power, but lower-cased when referring in a general way to the offices and agencies that carry out the functions of governing. Similarly, the term "Opposition" should be capitalized when referring to the parties (or individuals) constituting the Opposition in the House of Commons (or other law-making institution). Mathew5000 (talk) 19:48, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I can agree with "Congress" and "Parliament", but I don't fully support "Government". I think "the terms "Government" should be capitalized when referring to the political apparatus of a party in power" would just create confusion, both for readers and for editors.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 20:27, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) Although I agree with much (probably most) of this, I'm hesitating to expand the Manual of Style to include every small point of usage about which editors may disagree. (I just reverted someone's removal, citing WP:MOS-DASH, of a hyphen from a sentence I'd written about a "regularly-scheduled election" because the hyphen made comprehension quicker in that particular sentence.) We really need to find ways to reduce the Manual to a size that ordinary editors feel they can read in one sitting and absorb after one or two more. We often talk about ways of doing so. But the natural process works the other way: for every possible difference of opinion, style or usage, another phrase, sentence, section or page is added (sometimes peremptorily and sometimes after long discussion) to the MoS or one of its multifarious offshoots. But it's very rare, once such an item is added, for it ever to be removed.

¶ On the particular point, Congress and Parliament, especially when they carry no article, should be treated as capitalized proper names when they're referring to a particular congress or parliament. British and Irish usage does the same thing for British and Irish political party conferences and Trades Union Congresses, as in "By a unanimous vote, Conference decided..." American usage keeps the article for U.S. political party conventions, usually not capitalizing "the convention" alone, but often "the Democratic Convention". Where I have difficulty (and I don't think the MoS should necessarily decide this) is with presidents, prime ministers, etc. I'm also unsure about Government (although definitely for H.M. Government and H.M. Opposition), although I think it usefully distinguishes the cabinet and governing parties in Parliament from the administrative apparatus operated by the civil service; usually it's "the Government" or "Her Majesty's Government" or "H.M. Government" and not "Government" without an article. I'm even less sure about capitalizing Opposition except as an adjective ("the Opposition benches" and "the Government benches"); I'd probably prefer capitalizing Opposition, but don't greatly mind if it's uncapitalized.

(There, I've added my little bit to the 120+ pages of MoS archives. I really wish there were a non-prescriptive forum where such nice and interesting points of usage and practice could be intelligently discussed without setting rules for anyone else.) —— Shakescene (talk) 21:01, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

This is going slightly off topic, but... I just wanted to bring up the point that the "culture" of Misplaced Pages has been changing slightly, over the last year or two. We're collectively shifting from "build the web" mode to a more "fix what we have" mode. Witness the BLP brouhaha, the (ongoing?) MOS-DASH dust up, and a raft of similar but lower level battles over relative minutiae. Granted, individually most of this stuff really is minutiae (the blp issues aren't, but... I personally thing that was way overblown), but collectively these issues represent fairly large scale improvements to the content on Misplaced Pages. That's my take, at least.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 22:02, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

According to the MoS' rule and the illustration thereof, "congress" and "parliament" should not be capitalised unless they're part of the full, proper titles of specific institutions. Hence, "the Parliament of Canada consists of three parts" and "the parliament consists of three parts" are both correct, "the Parliament consists of three parts" is not. If the MoS is incorrect, then it should be amended. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 04:19, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

(after slight edit conflict) But it's certainly not idiomatic (and you'd have little luck in persuading all the potential editors of thousands of articles on U.S. history, politics and law that it is) to say "following this debate, congress passed a bill". Even writing "nevertheless, the congress overrode the president's veto" isn't very good American English because readers are so used to recognizing this particular Congress in its capitalized form (even after "the") that the reader will think it's the congress of some other organization or nation. (It's a little different if you're comparing different congresses, like that of 1974 with that of 1946; similarly, though not identically, for presidents.) The original post suggested adjusting or amending the Manual's current language to account for these nuances. —— Shakescene (talk) 04:38, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

The MoS absolutely should be altered if it's giving misleading instructions. And, according to some input here, it is. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 04:52, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes it should; if somebody would care to formulate an {{editprotected}}? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:04, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

• For decades, the trend has been towards less initial capitalisation in all varieties of English. Many public and in-house style guides say to use lower case for "government" and "parliament" and "cabinet" (even "Thatcher's last cabinet", "prime minister Gillard", and "the Obama administration". I haven't looked at the MoS on this, but by the way, could we have an audit of WP:Manual of Style (capitalization) and how it shapes up with the related section(s) here? Tony (talk) 09:57, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
  • No, competent style guides will distinguish between "the prime ministers of the Commonwealth", a common noun, and "Prime Minister Gillard", a proper noun. The loss of this semantic differentiation in the name of recentism is harmful to the encyclopedia. References to a specific Congress, whether in Vienna or Washington, should be capitalized; to do otherwise is to ignore English usage: the endemic disease of the Manual of Style (or should I say the manual of style?). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:54, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Is the MoS not trying to talk about specific designators? If so, can it perhaps be clearer? --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 12:59, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Given the introductory subheading ("Political or geographical units such as cities, towns, and countries follow the same rules:"), I think this bullet item is intended to apply to political units, not organizational bodies like Parliament. However, as currently written, the previous item on institutions seems to apply. I think there is a good case to be made for allowing for capitalized specific designators. isaacl (talk) 23:01, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Then why doesn't the MoS make that case? --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 02:17, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't know what occurred historically; it seems the existing text was considering bodies such as universities and hospitals, and the consensus at the time was to not capitalize these examples. I think the editors above are making the case now, though. isaacl (talk) 13:45, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

To generalize: why doesn't the MOS make a case for most of its recommendations? (All too often: because there isn't one to be made.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:01, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Guidance re present or past tense

I put this quote from Gulfport, Mississippi article here as a example. The main issue is not this particular article.

"According to the United States Census Bureau, the city had a total area of 64.2 square miles (166.4 km²): 56.9 square miles (147.4 km²) of it is land and 7.3 square miles (19.0 km²) of it is water. The total area was 11.40% water."

I think it should say "has" and "is" instead of "has" and "was" but I wanted to check the Style Manual before making a change.

I cannot find guidance on the use of present tense and past tense in Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style, Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Register or their Talk pages. Maybe I missed it. Where is guidance on this?

Thanks, Wanderer57 (talk) 13:04, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that should be present tense. If you want to be super-extra correct, you could say, "According to information from the YEAR census, the city has..." That would settle the matter of time.

Hm, a CTRL-F of "tense" turns up nothing on the MoS. We should fix that. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:13, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Do people really need much guidance on that? Default to past, in cases such as the above present. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 13:28, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you all. "Do people need guidance?" Clearly some do. Whether the people who need guidance will seek it is another matter. Wanderer57 (talk) 14:43, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

If you want those people to seek guidance before writing any sentence that has a verb tense, which includes most sentences, then Misplaced Pages's slogan should be "The encyclopedia that anybody can edit, after you have read half a megabyte of the Manual of Style including subpages, because there's something really important about verb tenses about half way down." More practically, there are a number of changes that would make our guidelines more accessible, that don't generate much enthusiasm around here. Art LaPella (talk) 16:11, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

In the realm of stuff we should cover, I think tenses are pretty unambigious in most cases and thus don't require "legislating". I haven't seen people arguing for all articles to be written in future imperfect. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 16:29, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

I merely asked where I could find guidance. I don't particularly need guidance on tenses but I was surprised to find that the Style Manual had nothing on the topic.

Now I will feel compelled to try to convert existing articles to the pluperfect subjunctive or the future imperfect. Perhaps alternating paragraph by paragraph would add interest and build suspense.

I should paid more attention in English grammar class. (And I would have if Christine Williams hadn't been sitting practically beside me.) Wanderer57 (talk) 21:23, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Did you not mean to link to Christine Williams? ;-) --Ohconfucius 03:04, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for drawing my attention to this Christine Williams. Not the same one as in my class. Both beautiful. ;o) Wanderer57 (talk) 05:52, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

• I agree with just about everyone here. It's too fine-grained for the MoS, like most aspects of usage. However, one point needs to be sounded loudly and clearly to all scholastic and scientific writers, including WP editors: when reporting the finding of a "permanent" fact—that is, one that is uncontroversial in the writer's view and applies now as much as then, and will continue to do so, use the present tense. So "19th-century scientists discovered that the speed of light is about 300,000 km/s" (not was, which leaves open the possibility that this finding was later proved to be wrong, or that the speed has mysteriously changed since). However, when you want to cast uncertainty on a finding—and it is sometimes NPOV to do so—using past tense is a good way of conveying this, by highlighting the (past) experiment or the study or report, which of course was in the past: "Rogers et al. found that the rate of increase was greater for B than for A" (perhaps the jury is still out on this, or maybe a subsequent study didn't quite confirm it, or the sample was rather small, or it was only a prelim study). By contrast, "Rogers et al. found that the rate of increase is greater for B than for A" would give a ring of greater certainty/permanance—you couldn't write "is" if there's still uncertainty about it).

  Tense can thus be used to manipulate the level of certainty in the text by shifting the consciousness of the reader either back to the time of the study or to the present moment; I think that if the writer doesn't realise this, wrong impressions can be given. Tony (talk) 13:53, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

  Bravo. That may be worth adding to MOS. Would you care to boil this down to suggested wording? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:45, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

  I agree. Wasn't this part of the issue during the "Speed of Light" arbcom case? Or, at least, somehow related? Regardless, this is a good point, and one that should be clear in the MoS... somewhere.
  — V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 22:42, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Inconsistent use

In Dragon Warrior, there are some items the player needs to retrieve. The manual does not capitalize these items termed "balls of light"; however, other secondary RSes that name them do capitalize them as "Balls of Light" (or sometimes improperly as "Ball of Light". Should it be capitalized here or not?陣内_Jinnai 21:52, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Some sources are reliable for facts but not for usage. While, say, a website on Dragon Warrior would be a good source for things like characters and game mechanics, such sites are notorious for iffy English (even the ones that are not translated from Japanese). If the b/Balls of l/Light are proper nouns, then capitalize them, but if they aren't, don't. I'm getting the impression that they're just general balls of light. Can you link us to the specific source (or is it a print source)? Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:25, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

The original is a print source (manual). It uses lowercase and the context of the paragraph makes it look like it could either be a proper noun or not; its unclear. The manual is also known for having several grammatical errors. Other reliable sources, such as editoral reviews, capitalize it.陣内_Jinnai 20:07, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Inserting Video clips

What is the policy on inserting Video clips into articles? Is it the same policies as for images? --HighKing (talk) 11:08, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I would say so. What part of inserting videos were you specifically thinking about? Adabow (talk · contribs) 11:23, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Which brings us to the question of whether WP:IUP already covers, or if not should cover, the use of vids as well as stills. Tony (talk) 13:34, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I originally reverted an insert of a video here and here as they were unsourced, and wasn't appropriate for the Ultras article. The editor makes a good case that a video is "better" than an image for the Supporters article though, as a video can capture the atmosphere, etc. Leaving aside the quality of the video, I wanted to see if there are any policies on inserting videos, couldn't find any, so asked here. I don't know if videos are frowned on unless absolutely necessary, of if the same copyright laws apply, etc. I'm grateful for any/all advice/opinions. --HighKing (talk) 16:43, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I would follow WP:IUP on this; note that it has a size limit, and advises caution on using animations because they produce difficulties in making a pinrt version; both are reasons to be careful with videos, although not reasons to avoid them absolutely. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:14, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Usage of the Diaeresis

Should it be used in articles? The MoS doesn't say. --43?9enter _★contribs 06:06, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style#Foreign terms (permanent link here) says the following (I am updating the third link here).

The use of diacritics (accent marks) on foreign words is neither encouraged nor discouraged; their usage depends on whether they appear in verifiable reliable sources in English and on the constraints imposed by specialized Misplaced Pages guidelines. Place redirects at alternative titles, such as those without diacritics.

—Wavelength (talk) 06:47, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Does any guidance exist for plain English terms such as preeminent, cooperative, reelect, etc.? —LOL /_C 07:10, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Most modern English sources use neither a diaeresis nor a hyphen on those. Unless you are quoting a source where those are used and the exact manner in which the word is printed is important to the quote's purpose, I would omit them. Ozob (talk) 10:14, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

In brief: consult a good dictionary, preferably an unabridged of the relevant nation, or the OED. The result will very rarely be hyphenation, hardly ever diaresis (the OEdf does not even use one for aerate or naive; anybody want to help clean up Naïve, which does did not even correctly describe naïf? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:07, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Fixed for now; but a move request may be useful. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:36, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

To avoid disputes over diaereses for plain English, should a brief statement be added to the MoS? —LOL /_C 22:03, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

This is one of the many cases which MOS:FOLLOW is intended to take care of: follow the sources unless there is good reason to do otherwise and consensus to adopt it. Do we need more? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:27, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I can imagine someone arguing that the existence of diacritics in definitions of other dictionaries (such as AHD3) calls for a stalemate and WP:RETAIN. —LOL /_C 03:47, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

For loan words like naïve it's a tough call. It appears with diaresis in at least hundreds, perhaps thousands, of recent books. Probably it's more common without, though. For English words, the use of diaresis to mark a separately pronounced second vowel is something that I'm told only the New Yorker magazine does. Otherwise, it has pretty much disappeared from use; probably we don't need to say anything, as nobody would think to do such a thing. People do sometimes throw in hyphens, though, so maybe we should say something to show that no such marking is needed. Dicklyon (talk) 04:16, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, this section's existence is due to this edit (which has since been self-reverted), so I suspect that there are others who like to add diaereses to English words. —LOL /_C 18:11, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Personally, I'm all for generally avoiding diacritics as much as possible (obvious exceptions for completely foreign words , and cases where a diacritic could reasonably change meaning, should of course be made). English itself doesn't use diacritics (yea, yea... face it though, there aren't diacritics that are regularly used in English), so I think that it's fairly unambiguous that we should avoid them as much as possible. But... I realize that, for whatever reason, my view seems to be a minority one, at present.

Now, I understand MOS:FOLLOW, and even agree with it for the most part. However (and, I made a case about this earlier here, I think), I've come to the conclusion that it's time that the MOS specifically, and en.wikipedia policy in general, ought to (slowly) start to become more "prescriptive" in nature. There are a couple of reasons for this:

• There's now a significant body of history to en.wikipedia. Hey, we've been around for 10+ years now! There's really very little "new ground" here, in terms of policy issues. The point here being that creating more prescriptive "rules" isn't just a guessing game, as it would have been in 2001.
• The (predominantly) "descriptive" nature of current policy and guidance (and especially of the MoS) works more to create conflict now, in my view. Look, at the beginning, when we were trying to build en.wikipedia from the ground up, being purely descriptive was exactly what we needed for a variety of reasons. Now though, it seems to me that people are trying to build on what we already have more then they're trying to expand what we have (quality, not quantity). If we're doing that, focusing on improving the content of what we already have, then we need to decide what's generally better (meaning, prescriptive "rules").

I'm not saying that we need to be prescriptive about everything; and, we certainly don't need to be "going after" editors for "breaking the rules". That stuff should always continue to be discouraged. But, we could and should be willing to "duke things out" and come to some sort of consensus on issues such as this, the use of diacritics. Granted, some feelings may be bent, but... I mean, should some feelings be bent here, in a central place, or hundreds of times over hundreds of talk pages? Something that, I hope, some of you will consider.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 23:49, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

What's wrong with some such prescription as use diacritics when they are commonly used in reliable sources; avoid them when they are commonly unused? This will lead to some cases where reliable sources divide fairly evenly (I doubt naive is one), and Wikipedians are free to use either (in different articles) - but those are precisely the cases whether either form will be readily understood. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:33, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

RFC

I don't know how many of you are keeping up with Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Wikipedia style and naming (all of you, right? ;-) but there's an RFC at Template talk:MoS-guideline#RFC_For_The_Removal_Of_The_Non-protocol_Page_Reference about whether it's acceptable for a MoS template to link to a mere essay, WP:COMMONSENSE. The editor has started a similar discussion at WT:LAYOUT to have the link removed from the guideline. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:08, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

En dashes in chemical bonds

I hope this doesn't start a major debate, but is there any reason that, for example, Carbon-carbon bond shouldn't actually be Carbon–carbon bond? Do we defer to MOS:ENDASH or common usage in reliable chemistry sources? –CWenger (^ • @) 07:26, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

It definitely should be: like protein–protein interaction. Tony (talk) 08:50, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

(looking at google books) dash seems to be reasonably common usage in this case. @Tony, please don't cite wikipedia itself to support usage WP:CIRCULAR. --Enric Naval (talk) 09:36, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that's what Tony's doing. He is giving an example of a different application of the same rule (the rule in this case being MOS:ENDASH number 2). Anyway, I think we are all agreed that carbon–carbon is correct. Ozob (talk) 13:08, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

If the published sources commonly use a dash, then so should we. If necessary we should update MOS:ENDASH to reflect that common usage (perhaps noting it as an exception to the more general rule?). Blueboar (talk) 13:14, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes. And we've been through this before: usage out there is not consistent. So which common usage are you talking about? And where WP's pre-existing rules are concerned, it's not a matter of tallying up google hits against each other. We use the best, not the sloppiest practice in the sources. Tony (talk) 13:31, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Ozob: the MoS is not an article & the rule is not a fact. Consistency of rules is desirable. The argument makes good sense. JIMp _talk·cont 13:51, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I think we are all in agreement as to this case. On the more general issue... I realize that sometimes usage can be inconsistent (with some sources using a hyphen and others using a dash)... WP:TITLE says that when that occurs, editors need to reach a consensus as to how to proceed. And I think the MOS is a very useful tool to help editors reach that consensus (ie it can be used as a "tie-breaker" when there is no obvious common usage in the sources).

My point was that if a significant majority of sources use a dash (or a hyphen, or whatever), we should follow the sources... even if we disagree with that usage and think it "sloppy". The sources know best, not us. My point was simply to say that we should never impose our style preferences over the preference of a significant majority of sources. Blueboar (talk) 14:28, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

As a general principle, the "significant majority" approach is not all that helpful. It would mean that we'd have to throw out most of all of our usages of en dash, as a significant majority of reliable sources simply don't use them. As Tony said, our WP:MOS is designed to encourage "best practices" in our style, not "average practices." There has been a recent push to abolish the use of en dashes in many contexts, based on the fact that most sources don't do that; however, I think that the consensus in building the MOS is that by adopting best practices we bring real value to the reader; the use of en dash to indicate relationships different from what the hyphen indicates is something that I've always been taught by top-notch editors that I've worked with, and something that I've found very helpful in reading. Let's be careful about advancing ideas that might encourage those who would tear down that valuable MOS and go back to typewriter typography. Dicklyon (talk) 16:15, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I will agree that it is unhelpful to the handful of editors who want Misplaced Pages to be written in a gooblegook they have invented. To those of us who prefer to have this English Misplaced Pages written in English, as eccentric as that may seem, however, it is extremely helpful. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:56, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Plenty of top-notch reliable sources demonstrate that there is no conflict between good English and good typography. Nobody here invented en dashes or how to use them; we just decided to follow good typographical practice. Dicklyon (talk) 16:58, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Plenty of top-notch reliable sources demonstrate that there is no conflict between good English and good typography. Quite true; but Dicklyon's views are neither good English nor good typography; and reliable sources avoid the uses he prefers. Those who want to reinvent English to their personal tastes should make a Misplaced Pages of their very own; WP:Forks and mirrors will show them how to incorporate all our present content. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:10, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I've already stipulated that many reliable sources do not use en dashes. This has nothing to do with English, nor with me. Dicklyon (talk) 17:13, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Some uses of en dashes are actually moderately common, and are harmless - even if none is a majority, they can and should be tolerated; but the ones Dicklyon revert wars for are vanishingly rare, not consistently used by any publisher. In insisting on them - and nothing else - he and his friends are deliberately harmful to the encyclopedia, and should be banned. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:22, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

That's right; better ban me soon, before I destroy the project with professional typography! Dicklyon (talk) 04:18, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I shall abstain from supporting this here, but I do wonder if anybody else does. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:08, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I searched for an answer at Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (chemistry), but did not find one.

—Wavelength (talk) 15:01, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

ACS Style Guide (3rd ed (2006), p267) states "indicate bonds by en dashes", giving "the C–C–C angle" as an example. DMacks (talk) 15:43, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

That's not a word; that's a symbol, as the C is; if the carbon were tetravalent, it would be a two-dimensional symbol. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:25, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't find a style guide specifically calling out "carbon–carbon bond" as an example of en dash usage, but will you accept this one from the American Chemical Society that uses "carbon–oxygen bond", or is that too much of a stretch? Dicklyon (talk) 17:36, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Under no circumstances; following isolated style-guides demonstrably ignored by normal usage is a road to incomprehensibility. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:49, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

The ACS Style Guide is very definitive in chemistry. It is absolutely not an "isolated style guide". –CWenger (^ • @) 17:52, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback. I have proposed some moves to fix this at Talk:Carbon-carbon bond#Requested move, using DMacks' rationale above. –CWenger (^ • @) 17:27, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Sheesh, good to see that one settled. Frankly, editors, this one can easily be resolved by appeal to such sources as the ACS Guide, which has other examples beyond the one Dicklyon has shown here. Can we back off from these relentless personal attacks? Dicklyon has direct professional knowledge and experience in technical writing, and it is appalling to see him treated with such disrespect here and elsewhere. We should all stand against such poor behaviour. It is one thing to take every opportunity to undo the valuable work MOS does for the Project (unproductive as such captious carping is), and another to make it personal every time, in a way that is so transparently vicious and unwarranted. Noetica 02:59, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

And the third member of the Mutual Admiration Society shows up; the facile and disinterested praise of this small band for one another can be taken for granted. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:20, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

PMAnderson, I would take this to your talkpage but you have requested that I not do such a thing. Please formulate an apology to Dicklyon, and now also to me. This is egregious incivility, compounded by other manifest abuses. I see no reason for anyone here to tolerate any more of it. Your retraction and apology may be posted here, or at my talkpage and Dicklyon's. I will not enter any more discussion of this for the next 24 hours. Noetica 03:34, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

That the members of your faction praise one another is a matter of common observation, which need extend no further than this section. The spurious cry of incivility is the first resort of those who have no substantive points to make; if you don't want to be called a Mutual Admiration Society, don't behave like one. Professional qualifications are unverifiable - and irrelevant: if genuine, they would supply the data and arguments which would be relevant. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:44, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

As an entirely uninvolved party until I was pinged via the chemistry side, I find this a quite poisonous approach to community and consensus-building. PMAnderson, consider this your final warning for long-running incivility despite numerous warnings. You know this will lead to a block if it continues. DMacks (talk) 04:11, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks, DMacks. For the record, I have expressed admiration on-wiki for Mr Anderson's expertise in his chosen areas on more than one occasion; I have initiated kind exchanges with him via email in a previous year. Everyone acknowledges that for some four years he has had a major issue with centralised style guidance, and particularly with some aspects of typography; but continuing to bang on that wall in an attempt to knock it over is becoming destructive and, to quote someone above, creates a "poisonous" environment. I ask him to avoid negative personalised statements here, as required by the site policy. Apologising for such is a way of healing and making oneself look good socially. We would love it if Mr Anderson worked with the community to improve the style guides rather than continually working against them. Tony (talk) 06:00, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

PMA, if you had said, "I notice that these people admire each other a lot and that makes me question their judgment on this issue," then we would either be talking about en dashes in chemical bonds or Noetica et al's credibility. Instead, we're talking about you. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:38, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Very well, I do notice that these people admire each other a lot and that is indeed one reason I question their judgment on this issue; I do not assert - and hope I never have said anything which would imply - a lack of learning or honesty on Tony's part. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:19, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

But you're still OK with your claims of a lack of honesty on my part? I hate Tony for that! You like him better than you like me; wah! Dicklyon (talk) 20:30, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Tony is honest (even in abuse, and in crying "subversion"), occasionally kind, sometimes flattering; he does not AFAIR engage in praising his own arguments instead of making them; it takes unusual animus to object to noting such things. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:19, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Episode lists in infoboxes

Some infoboxes for TV programmes (example: Bart the Genius) have episode and season lists within them. I contend that this is unhelpful, and that the episode lists belong in navboxes, after (unlike infoboxes, which come before) the content of the article, which is where comparable information is found for almost every other type of article.

Recent TfD discussion was inconclusive, so I'm raising the matter here for a wider consideration. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 14:08, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

This should probably be discussed at WT:Manual of Style (infoboxes) rather than here. Blueboar (talk) 15:51, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I'll move it there. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 22:23, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Request for Additions to Abbrieviation Section to Disambiguate Military Ranks

I was not able to find anything in the MoS about military rankings (Lt. as opposed to Lieutenant or Gen. as opposed to General). Could a section be added about this? I believe abbreviations would be a good section to put it in. If there is already a policy and I am missing it, could someone direct me to the appropriate place? Even if this is the case, I still believe the MoS should cover it. Thanks. Bronsonboy _Q 14:28, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Military abbreviations are covered at Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style_(abbreviations)#Widely_used_abbreviations_in_Wikipedia. I am not sure that there is a need to go further. Is there something about military ranks that is unique... something we have not covered in the more general guidance? Blueboar (talk) 14:35, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

This can be a tricky question because sometimes the practice differs between different armies, navies and air forces, or between different services of the same English-speaking nation. I think that the very extensive Misplaced Pages:Wikiproject Military history has some stylebook or guidelines that may cover this sort of question, although I'm not absolutely sure. —— Shakescene (talk) 01:42, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Distinguishing Misplaced Pages/encyclopedia from other media

Many new editors seem unfamiliar with encyclopedia writing style. They have watched television "sell" a particular story. Then in complete disregard to yesterday's story, which was oversold and not quite correct in many places, move on to yet another "developing" topic.

It seems to me that we need a high level "statement of intent." Somewhere in this policy it should be stated that Misplaced Pages/encyclopedias differ from the usual media by ensuring honesty, npov, but mainly do not "sell" stories or a pov. Adjectives are kept to a minimum for that reason. The style is deliberately bland. Facts only. Just the bare facts. New editors are mystified that we don't "sell" an article, place, or event as "exciting." Television always does and their journalism classes teach them to as well. We need to counter that impression IMO. A high level statement here might help.

More to the point, it would help them to understand the policy of using material from that media, while avoiding the concurrent apocalyptic hysteria that often accompanies the actual facts.Student7 (talk) 19:22, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I think we can be encyclopedic and NPOV without going as far as bland and avoiding adjectives. Besides "bare facts" we want to report a range of opinions, observations, reactions, and relationships, too. Dicklyon (talk) 19:29, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

But those opinions et al are phrased as those of specific people and organizations rather than voiced by the narrator. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:11, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I think there’s quite a bit of ground between “bland without adjectives” and “apocalyptic hysteria”. JeffConrad (talk) 23:35, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Image alignment

It is stated here that it is often preferable to place images of faces so that the face or eyes look toward the text. "Often" is not the same as "Always". I think that the MOS should be clear as to what the exceptions are, or if there aren't any, then just change the wording to state that it is always the case. A lack of clarity regarding this could result in an edit war between two editors. Joyson Noel 14:52, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Please observe that this is one of several preferable qualities for images. Sometimes they cannot all be satisfied; therefore it is a matter for editorial discretion which may be sacrificed; if we make them all mandatory, we can leave the editor with no choices, or very undesirable ones. The present wording developed after some editors were flipping well-known images side-to-side in an effort to comply with everything. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:36, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand. Are you saying that this image alignment is a choice; that it isn't necessary that the guideline be followed? Joyson Noel 21:44, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

It is never necessary that guidelines be followed; that is why we head this page with {{MoS-guideline}}; it is usually (sometimes almost always) desirable, but there are exceptions, especially when the guideline as written can't be followed.

For example, WP:MOS#Images has nine bullet points; only the first is phrased as mandatory, and that is because having a lead image or info-box on the left hardly ever works well; it confuses screen readers, and has a strong tendency to misalign text for the sighted.

If the only image suitable for the lead (it may be the only real image of the subject in existence) itself faces to the reader's right, we have several bad choices: omit the image (a loss of valuable data); place it on the left, with the ensuing havoc; place it looking on the right, looking out of the page. Flipping an image is worse yet, especially if the subject has lettering on it. Editors should decide, on each case, which of these is the least bad; that's why it's good to be edited by humans, not by bots. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:11, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Problem with "Honorifics for deities"

The rule says : Honorifics for deities, including proper nouns and titles, start with a capital letter (God, Allah, the Lord, the Supreme Being, the Great Spirit, the Horned One, Bhagavan). Do not capitalize the unless it is formally a part of the name of the deity. The same is true when referring to major religious figures and figures from mythology by titles or terms of respect (the Prophet, the Messiah, the Virgin). Common nouns denoting deities or religious figures are not capitalized (the Romans worshipped many gods; many Anglo-Saxons worshipped the god Wotan; Jesus and Muhammad are both considered prophets in Islam; biblical scholars dispute whether Mary was a virgin for her entire life; her husband was her muse, but the nine Muses).

In the article Religion in Europe, one reference is to an Eurbarometer poll, in which the questions were expressed like this : Which of these statements comes closest to your beliefs? 1)I believe there is a God 2)I believe there is some sort of spirit or life force 3)I don’ t believe there is any sort of spirit, God or life force.So in this case, applying the rule for 'honorifics for deities' would mean to write god with lower case 'g'.This would grossly mislead Misplaced Pages readers about how the questions were asked in the poll! So we have to make an exception to this rule of style for such cases.

Please tell me what you think about this.Stefan Udrea (talk) 16:04, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Here is a permanent link to the section.

—Wavelength (talk) 19:57, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

If quoting an external source, present it clearly as a quote, and follow the formatting of the original. Kevin McE (talk) 16:12, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

The texts of concern were put into a table's header.Do we really need to put quotation marks around them to make it clear that they are quotes?Stefan Udrea (talk) 17:56, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I would say yes. Otherwise the table formatting will tend to make the derived nature of the text inobvious. —chaos5023 (talk) 18:02, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree. If the headers are in fact quotes, then this should be clearly indicated. --RL0919 (talk) 18:06, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

And even if they weren't quotes, if the survey said God, so should we in stating the survey results; it is not inconceivable that a survey about belief in "a god" would have gotten different responses. Above all else, represent what the source said, clearly and accurately. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:33, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Septentrionalis, without quotes, what you say would require making an exception to the style rule.Do you want such an exception to be mentioned in this manual of style?Stefan Udrea (talk) 10:16, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't think the case under discussion is parallel to the examples MOS now gives, so it comes under the general heading of exceptions. But this reading of MOS would be contrary to core policy, in this case WP:OR; if anybody is likely to insist on it on the grounds of "MOS breach", it may be more useful to add a general section saying that MOS should not be read so as to violate policy, which will cover many such problems.

We don't want to lengthen MOS more than we can avoid. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:27, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Stefa, I think I see where you're coming from, but this might be one of those times when following the sources and using common sense trumps the specifics of the MoS. If you think about it, the point of that section of the MoS is that capital letters can change meaning. The poll was about "God," not "god," so that's how the article should read. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:46, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

We don't need to specify every possible exception to the MOS... because we have a policy that already allows us to make such exceptions whenever we need to: see WP:Ignore all rules. It was for situations such as this that the IAR policy was created... to allow us to follow common sense rather than the "rule". Blueboar (talk) 17:58, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

But the MOS could be clearer. I would suggest changing one sentence to "Do not capitalize the unless it is formally a part of the name of the deity or there is a good reason for retaining the capitalization of a source, for instance in a direct quote."

We also have here a problem with countering systemic bias. The guideline at wp:Naming conventions (Islam related topics) is to my interpretation clear and straightforward to use. It doesn't pander to sectarian preferences. In contrast, the guideline at wp:Naming conventions (clergy) goes so far as to specialize in Christian (particularly Roman Catholic) clergy, ambiguously endorsing the use of several sorts of honorifics, styles, or titles in biographical article names. Similarly the wp:Naming conventions (Indic related topics) is a mess. The consequence of this is that many of these articles become wp:BATTLEgrounds. This evidently will only be sorted out by a centralized discussion that can engage editors of all backgrounds. LeadSongDog come howl! 18:39, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Insect names with "fly"

I quote hereunder the third paragraph of the article "Fly" (permanent link here), featured in highlighted with today's picture of the day.

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(edit conflict) JohnBlackburne, but grammar, spelling and punctuation is something that is consistent and well-known, most editors know it, so they get it right the first time, or, if they don't, the next editor to see it is likely to fix it.

We don't need to be micromanaging aspects of style on otherwise good pages. We need to be macromanaging the waves of crap coming through the gate at New Pages. That is all. Carrite (talk) 02:19, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

I didn't mean to actually propose anything (yet); I was just wondering what the objections might be if something like that was proposed. So far I've seen nothing significant. --Born2cycle (talk) 03:54, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

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