| Revision as of 20:30, 9 May 2011 editCreedence (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users1,720 edits Develop. Aid← Previous edit | Revision as of 21:05, 9 May 2011 edit undoCreedence (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users1,720 edits CorporationsNext edit → | ||
| Line 147: | Line 147: | ||
| Here is a map: http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/atlas/index_en.htm | Here is a map: http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/atlas/index_en.htm | ||
| ] (]) 03:53, 8 May 2011 (UTC) | ] (]) 03:53, 8 May 2011 (UTC) | ||
| == Corporations == | |||
| I add the sentence about the Po Valley and the GDP sector composition. | |||
Revision as of 21:05, 9 May 2011
| Skip to table of contents |
| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Italy article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
|
| Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8Auto-archiving period: 3 months  |
 | This is not a forum for general discussion of Italy. Any such messages will be deleted. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. |
Template:Outline of knowledge coverage
 | This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
{{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||
 | A fact from this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the On this day section on April 25, 2005. |
 Archives | ||||||||
Index
|
||||||||
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Italy article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
|
| Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
| Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8Auto-archiving period: 3 months |
 |
Tip: #section links are case-sensitive on most browsers
Links from this article with broken #section links : |
Mistake.
Italy ,allowed by Italian Prime Minister,didn't guest Pershing rockets but Cruise rockets in Sigonella. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.60.117.139 (talk) 16:48, 2 October 2010 (UTC) Italy tried to colonize Ethiopia but it did not work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.13.91.135 (talk) 19:48, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Note 1
What is the connection between Repubblica Italiana and note 1?
Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 09:47, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
- It gives the translations of ‘Repubblica italiana’ into other languages spoken in the country. At least, that’s how I read the footnote. Ian Spackman (talk) 15:56, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
- Well, that would be a sensible and useful thing for it to do, certainly. But what I am seeing is this text: "According to Mitrica, an October 2005 Romanian report estimates that 1,061,400 Romanians are living in Italy, constituting 37.2% of 2.8 million immigrants in that country but it is unclear how the estimate was made, and therefore whether it should be taken seriously." Maybe I'm dumb, but I just can't see the relevance.
Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 17:51, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
- Well, that would be a sensible and useful thing for it to do, certainly. But what I am seeing is this text: "According to Mitrica, an October 2005 Romanian report estimates that 1,061,400 Romanians are living in Italy, constituting 37.2% of 2.8 million immigrants in that country but it is unclear how the estimate was made, and therefore whether it should be taken seriously." Maybe I'm dumb, but I just can't see the relevance.
Highest point
"The Apennine Mountains form the peninsula's backbone and the Alps form its northern boundary, where Italy's highest point is located on Mont Blanc (4,810 m/15,782 ft)."
No. Mont Blanc is in France. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.136.105.104 (talk) 08:23, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
No. Mont Blanc is shared between Italy and France. In Italy it's called "Monte Bianco". --Conte di Cavour (talk) 15:50, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
Crime
I disagree with the latest attempts to whitewash over crime's role in the Italian economy. The Guardian ref should definitely be kept, as it mentions Censis data and is more recent than the Confesercenti one from the NYT. Violent crime affects the economy of all countries. I feel there is also space for a mention of the high rates of insurance fraud and tax evasion. Mayor of Yurp (talk) 18:04, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
The New York Times source is reliable. If counts 7% of GDP, affects less than 13 million people. I think is important to show that Italy has the 47th highest Homicide Rate in a group of 62 countries. If you count the 200 countries in the World, Italy will be in the group of 50 countries with less homicides. GustoBLSJP (talk) 00:25, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
- The 13 million figure is indeed true, as evidenced by the more recent paper "Condizionamento delle mafie sull'economia, sulla società e sulle istituzioni del Mezzogiorno", a more recent source than the one given by the NYT. see this page (in Italian) Mayor of Yurp (talk) 00:40, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
I will cite that Italy has the 47th highest Homicide Rate in a group of 62 countries, and the the 43th highest number of rapes in a group of 65 countries. Ok? GustoBLSJP (talk) 00:59, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
I found this source http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/6957240/Italy-claims-finally-defeating-the-mafia.html, from the Telegraph UK. Here it says 9% of the GDP. GustoBLSJP (talk) 01:07, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
This PDF http://www.confesercenti.it/documenti/allegati/2008sosimp.pdf (Italian) GustoBLSJP (talk) 01:13, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
- I'm OK if you want to include the fact that "Italy has the 47th highest Homicide Rate in a group of 62 countries, and the 43th highest number of rapes in a group of 65 countries", as long as you don't delete anything else. As for the story by The Telegraph, it is a bit of a non-news, as the article then goes on to describe how the claim is aimed to distract attention from Mr Berlusconi's troubles (while also mentioning his alleged involvement in the mafia). It also doesn't mention the source of the 9% claim. The pdf by Confesercenti is still more dated than the Censis report, and also makes the point that (page 2) by 2008 the mafia was taking 160.000 Euros a minute from honest shopkeepers. Mayor of Yurp (talk) 01:47, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
I think is better specify in the article that the Mafia controls between 7.0 and 14.6 % of the GDP, with the two sources. It looks fair. GustoBLSJP (talk) 02:15, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
I have moved the data about murders and rapes, from "Economy" to "Demographics". GustoBLSJP (talk) 11:03, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
- That's OK. It would be fine to state the different figures, but they all seem to be estimated using different criteria.
- 6% of GDP directly going to organised crime, not just the mafia, but only in their commercial branch (not including trafficking etc.)
- 14.6% of GDP is produced in 610 comuni controlled by the mafia, where 22% of Italians live
- 9% of GDP earned by the mafia from arms and drug trafficking, extortion, prostitution, embezzled EU funds and illegal waste dumping
With just these sources the text would have to be:
"6% of GDP is directly earned by organised crime in commercial operations, with a further 3% of GDP derived from illegal activities such as arms and drug trafficking, extortion, prostitution, embezzled EU funds and illegal waste dumping. In total, 14.6% of the GDP is produced in 610 comuni controlled by the mafia, exerting control over 13 million Italians."
I think that's quite neutral and balanced. Let me know what you (or anyone else) think. Mayor of Yurp (talk) 11:23, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
The data must be compressed. The Mafia directly controls 9% of Italy's GDP, with commercial operations and the illegal activities. In total, 14.6% of the GDP is produced in 610 comuni with strong presence of the Mafia, where lives 13 million Italians.
The Mafia doesn't control 13 million Italians or 14.6% of the GDP. That's the number of people who lives in cities with strong presence of the Mafia, and the GDP produced. They coexist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GustoBLSJP (talk • contribs) 23:35, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
According to http://www.antimafiaduemila.com/content/view/20052/78/, the Mafia does not control 13 million people or 15% of the country's GDP. That's the number of Italians who lives in cities with strong presence of the Mafia (not control), and the total produced by these cities. It's reasonable to informe this on the article. GustoBLSJP (talk) 15:57, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
- I see your point. The antimafiaduemila article mentions that the 610 comuni "hanno un clan o un bene confiscato, o ancora sono stati sciolti negli ultimi tre anni", that is, "they either have a clan or a confiscated property or have been dissolved . So we could reasonably say that the lives of 13 millions Italians are affected by the mafia. 201 councils have been dissolved for this reason since 1991, and that's just the ones that have been found out.
- So, the text I propose is this:
- "6% of GDP is directly earned by organised crime in commercial operations, with the percentage rising to 9% with the inclusion of proceeds from illegal activities such as arms and drug trafficking, extortion, prostitution, embezzled EU funds and illegal waste dumping. In total, 14.6% of the GDP is produced in 610 comuni with a strong mafia presence, with 13 million Italians living alongside organised crime."
Mayor of Yurp (talk) 18:16, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Prehistory and Roman Empire error?
"Excavations throughout Italy reveal a modern human presence dating back to the Palaeolithic period, some 200,000 years ago."
How can this be? I am no expert, but modern humans did not inhabit Europe at all until ~35,000 years ago (or so several sources tell us ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by SirTankalot (talk • contribs) 16:35, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
itaaly rooles —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.108.13.164 (talk) 22:52, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
relpubic
Italy is a "republic" not a "relpubic" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.29.135 (talk) 06:47, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
Human rights
Well, we now have a section on "Human Rights". While this material is all sourced, I think there must be a better place to put it than here. I also have concerns at the motivations of the editor who wants to insert it, as they've been touting it round the project; this is something like the fifth attempt to place it. Anyway, what do others think? --John (talk) 18:18, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
- Many countries seem to have a "Human rights in " article, but maybe they need it more than Italy does. There doesn't seem to be enough material here at the moment to justify that. Personally I'd say leave it, and would not myself worry too much about motivation or the apparent slight bias, as others will soon edit it into shape. And I can't think of a better place for it.
Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 18:43, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
- I'm putting it back in that case. It's pretty uncivil for John to have removed it without even notifying me. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 19:20, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
- Agree with the WP:COATRACK assessment. I've removed it per that and WP:UNDUE weight. OhNoitsJamie 19:33, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
- Why would Italy not merit a section on human rights, given that it accounts for by far the largest percentage of cases sent to the ECHR? This is just censorship of fully sourced material which could be viewed as unfavourable to Italy. Another day of suppressing the truth on Misplaced Pages. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 19:36, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
- Do you have reliable scholarly sources for the significance of this material, or is it just your own opinion? --John (talk) 19:59, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
- The reader can make their own mind up as to the material. What's important is that it is sourced and belongs in a section on human rights in Italy. the sources are respected organisations such as Amnesty International. I'm seeking further advice on this matter as i have not heard any convincing reason why the Wiki entry on Italy should not have a section on human rights. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 20:19, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
- The first two sentences are problematic. The proposed content begins: "In 2011, issues with press freedom in Italy were raised. On 19th April 2011, the Committee to Protect Journalists, based in New York, sent a letter to the Italian government and EU and US officials complaining of violence and intimidation used by the Perugia authorities to silence journalists who disagreed with them." Considering that this is an article about the country, to refer to one incident that happened in one town and then state (without attribution to a reliable source) in the first sentence that "issues with press freedom in Italy were raised" would seem to be in violation of WP:OR or WP:SYNTH, since that broad conclusion is not documented in sources. Furthermore, the second sentence is questionable with a mind to WP:UNDUE (again, since this is not the Perugia article). However, the rest of it seems to be fine. SuperMarioMan 20:46, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you SMM, that's a constructive comment. I'll rework the section omitting the initial section you have a problem with. I'll resubmit a new version some time tomorrow. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 08:19, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
- The first two sentences are problematic. The proposed content begins: "In 2011, issues with press freedom in Italy were raised. On 19th April 2011, the Committee to Protect Journalists, based in New York, sent a letter to the Italian government and EU and US officials complaining of violence and intimidation used by the Perugia authorities to silence journalists who disagreed with them." Considering that this is an article about the country, to refer to one incident that happened in one town and then state (without attribution to a reliable source) in the first sentence that "issues with press freedom in Italy were raised" would seem to be in violation of WP:OR or WP:SYNTH, since that broad conclusion is not documented in sources. Furthermore, the second sentence is questionable with a mind to WP:UNDUE (again, since this is not the Perugia article). However, the rest of it seems to be fine. SuperMarioMan 20:46, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
- The reader can make their own mind up as to the material. What's important is that it is sourced and belongs in a section on human rights in Italy. the sources are respected organisations such as Amnesty International. I'm seeking further advice on this matter as i have not heard any convincing reason why the Wiki entry on Italy should not have a section on human rights. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 20:19, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
- Do you have reliable scholarly sources for the significance of this material, or is it just your own opinion? --John (talk) 19:59, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
- Why would Italy not merit a section on human rights, given that it accounts for by far the largest percentage of cases sent to the ECHR? This is just censorship of fully sourced material which could be viewed as unfavourable to Italy. Another day of suppressing the truth on Misplaced Pages. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 19:36, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
- Agree with the WP:COATRACK assessment. I've removed it per that and WP:UNDUE weight. OhNoitsJamie 19:33, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
- I'm putting it back in that case. It's pretty uncivil for John to have removed it without even notifying me. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 19:20, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
Develop. Aid
According to Eurostat Regional Policy at http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/index_en.cfm, the countries that receive Development Aid are: UK, Germany, Italy, Spain and others. These countries have "Convergence Zones", regions with GDP below the EU average. Here is a map: http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/atlas/index_en.htm GustoBLSJP (talk) 03:53, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Corporations
I add the sentence about the Po Valley and the GDP sector composition.
Categories: