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Mistake.

Italy ,allowed by Italian Prime Minister,didn't guest Pershing rockets but Cruise rockets in Sigonella. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.60.117.139 (talk) 16:48, 2 October 2010 (UTC) Italy tried to colonize Ethiopia but it did not work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.13.91.135 (talk) 19:48, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Note 1

What is the connection between Repubblica Italiana and note 1?
Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 09:47, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

It gives the translations of ‘Repubblica italiana’ into other languages spoken in the country. At least, that’s how I read the footnote. Ian Spackman (talk) 15:56, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, that would be a sensible and useful thing for it to do, certainly. But what I am seeing is this text: "According to Mitrica, an October 2005 Romanian report estimates that 1,061,400 Romanians are living in Italy, constituting 37.2% of 2.8 million immigrants in that country but it is unclear how the estimate was made, and therefore whether it should be taken seriously." Maybe I'm dumb, but I just can't see the relevance.
Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 17:51, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Highest point

"The Apennine Mountains form the peninsula's backbone and the Alps form its northern boundary, where Italy's highest point is located on Mont Blanc (4,810 m/15,782 ft)."

No. Mont Blanc is in France. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.136.105.104 (talk) 08:23, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

No. Mont Blanc is shared between Italy and France. In Italy it's called "Monte Bianco". --Conte di Cavour (talk) 15:50, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Crime

I disagree with the latest attempts to whitewash over crime's role in the Italian economy. The Guardian ref should definitely be kept, as it mentions Censis data and is more recent than the Confesercenti one from the NYT. Violent crime affects the economy of all countries. I feel there is also space for a mention of the high rates of insurance fraud and tax evasion. Mayor of Yurp (talk) 18:04, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

The New York Times source is reliable. If counts 7% of GDP, affects less than 13 million people. I think is important to show that Italy has the 47th highest Homicide Rate in a group of 62 countries. If you count the 200 countries in the World, Italy will be in the group of 50 countries with less homicides. GustoBLSJP (talk) 00:25, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

The 13 million figure is indeed true, as evidenced by the more recent paper "Condizionamento delle mafie sull'economia, sulla società e sulle istituzioni del Mezzogiorno", a more recent source than the one given by the NYT. see this page (in Italian) Mayor of Yurp (talk) 00:40, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

I will cite that Italy has the 47th highest Homicide Rate in a group of 62 countries, and the the 43th highest number of rapes in a group of 65 countries. Ok? GustoBLSJP (talk) 00:59, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

I found this source http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/6957240/Italy-claims-finally-defeating-the-mafia.html, from the Telegraph UK. Here it says 9% of the GDP. GustoBLSJP (talk) 01:07, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

This PDF http://www.confesercenti.it/documenti/allegati/2008sosimp.pdf (Italian) GustoBLSJP (talk) 01:13, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm OK if you want to include the fact that "Italy has the 47th highest Homicide Rate in a group of 62 countries, and the 43th highest number of rapes in a group of 65 countries", as long as you don't delete anything else. As for the story by The Telegraph, it is a bit of a non-news, as the article then goes on to describe how the claim is aimed to distract attention from Mr Berlusconi's troubles (while also mentioning his alleged involvement in the mafia). It also doesn't mention the source of the 9% claim. The pdf by Confesercenti is still more dated than the Censis report, and also makes the point that (page 2) by 2008 the mafia was taking 160.000 Euros a minute from honest shopkeepers. Mayor of Yurp (talk) 01:47, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

I think is better specify in the article that the Mafia controls between 7.0 and 14.6 % of the GDP, with the two sources. It looks fair. GustoBLSJP (talk) 02:15, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

I have moved the data about murders and rapes, from "Economy" to "Demographics". GustoBLSJP (talk) 11:03, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

That's OK. It would be fine to state the different figures, but they all seem to be estimated using different criteria.

• 6% of GDP directly going to organised crime, not just the mafia, but only in their commercial branch (not including trafficking etc.)
• 14.6% of GDP is produced in 610 comuni controlled by the mafia, where 22% of Italians live
• 9% of GDP earned by the mafia from arms and drug trafficking, extortion, prostitution, embezzled EU funds and illegal waste dumping

With just these sources the text would have to be:

"6% of GDP is directly earned by organised crime in commercial operations, with a further 3% of GDP derived from illegal activities such as arms and drug trafficking, extortion, prostitution, embezzled EU funds and illegal waste dumping. In total, 14.6% of the GDP is produced in 610 comuni controlled by the mafia, exerting control over 13 million Italians."

I think that's quite neutral and balanced. Let me know what you (or anyone else) think. Mayor of Yurp (talk) 11:23, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

The data must be compressed. The Mafia directly controls 9% of Italy's GDP, with commercial operations and the illegal activities. In total, 14.6% of the GDP is produced in 610 comuni with strong presence of the Mafia, where lives 13 million Italians.

The Mafia doesn't control 13 million Italians or 14.6% of the GDP. That's the number of people who lives in cities with strong presence of the Mafia, and the GDP produced. They coexist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GustoBLSJP (talk • contribs) 23:35, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

According to http://www.antimafiaduemila.com/content/view/20052/78/, the Mafia does not control 13 million people or 15% of the country's GDP. That's the number of Italians who lives in cities with strong presence of the Mafia (not control), and the total produced by these cities. It's reasonable to informe this on the article. GustoBLSJP (talk) 15:57, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I see your point. The antimafiaduemila article mentions that the 610 comuni "hanno un clan o un bene confiscato, o ancora sono stati sciolti negli ultimi tre anni", that is, "they either have a clan or a confiscated property or have been dissolved . So we could reasonably say that the lives of 13 millions Italians are affected by the mafia. 201 councils have been dissolved for this reason since 1991, and that's just the ones that have been found out.

So, the text I propose is this:

"6% of GDP is directly earned by organised crime in commercial operations, with the percentage rising to 9% with the inclusion of proceeds from illegal activities such as arms and drug trafficking, extortion, prostitution, embezzled EU funds and illegal waste dumping. In total, 14.6% of the GDP is produced in 610 comuni with a strong mafia presence, with 13 million Italians living alongside organised crime."

Mayor of Yurp (talk) 18:16, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Prehistory and Roman Empire error?

"Excavations throughout Italy reveal a modern human presence dating back to the Palaeolithic period, some 200,000 years ago."

How can this be? I am no expert, but modern humans did not inhabit Europe at all until ~35,000 years ago (or so several sources tell us ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by SirTankalot (talk • contribs) 16:35, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

itaaly rooles —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.108.13.164 (talk) 22:52, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

relpubic

Italy is a "republic" not a "relpubic" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.29.135 (talk) 06:47, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Human rights

Well, we now have a section on "Human Rights". While this material is all sourced, I think there must be a better place to put it than here. I also have concerns at the motivations of the editor who wants to insert it, as they've been touting it round the project; this is something like the fifth attempt to place it. Anyway, what do others think? --John (talk) 18:18, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Many countries seem to have a "Human rights in " article, but maybe they need it more than Italy does. There doesn't seem to be enough material here at the moment to justify that. Personally I'd say leave it, and would not myself worry too much about motivation or the apparent slight bias, as others will soon edit it into shape. And I can't think of a better place for it.
Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 18:43, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm putting it back in that case. It's pretty uncivil for John to have removed it without even notifying me. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 19:20, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Agree with the WP:COATRACK assessment. I've removed it per that and WP:UNDUE weight. OhNoitsJamie 19:33, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Why would Italy not merit a section on human rights, given that it accounts for by far the largest percentage of cases sent to the ECHR? This is just censorship of fully sourced material which could be viewed as unfavourable to Italy. Another day of suppressing the truth on Misplaced Pages. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 19:36, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Do you have reliable scholarly sources for the significance of this material, or is it just your own opinion? --John (talk) 19:59, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

The reader can make their own mind up as to the material. What's important is that it is sourced and belongs in a section on human rights in Italy. the sources are respected organisations such as Amnesty International. I'm seeking further advice on this matter as i have not heard any convincing reason why the Wiki entry on Italy should not have a section on human rights. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 20:19, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

The first two sentences are problematic. The proposed content begins: "In 2011, issues with press freedom in Italy were raised. On 19th April 2011, the Committee to Protect Journalists, based in New York, sent a letter to the Italian government and EU and US officials complaining of violence and intimidation used by the Perugia authorities to silence journalists who disagreed with them." Considering that this is an article about the country, to refer to one incident that happened in one town and then state (without attribution to a reliable source) in the first sentence that "issues with press freedom in Italy were raised" would seem to be in violation of WP:OR or WP:SYNTH, since that broad conclusion is not documented in sources. Furthermore, the second sentence is questionable with a mind to WP:UNDUE (again, since this is not the Perugia article). However, the rest of it seems to be fine. SuperMarioMan 20:46, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you SMM, that's a constructive comment. I'll rework the section omitting the initial section you have a problem with. I'll resubmit a new version some time tomorrow. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 08:19, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Develop. Aid

According to Eurostat Regional Policy at http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/index_en.cfm, the countries that receive Development Aid are: UK, Germany, Italy, Spain and others. These countries have "Convergence Zones", regions with GDP below the EU average. Here is a map: http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/atlas/index_en.htm GustoBLSJP (talk) 03:53, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Corporations

I add the sentence about the Po Valley and the GDP sector composition, based on List of countries by GDP sector composition.GustoBLSJP (talk) 21:08, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

What you've written it's true...but it lacks sources! Search for some and add please! Especailly on the Po Valley, I wanted to write something about its economy on the dedicated page, but is very difficult to find some book on the web.--Conte di Cavour (talk) 15:47, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

I will try to find the sources. GustoBLSJP (talk) 20:13, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Much of the text i stated on "Corporation" was taken from the article Po Valley. The citation for the "other areas of intense economic ativity" i get from the list of the 10 biggest italian cities by population + Cagliari (regional capital). In the "Po Valley" article is stated "The major settlements therefore are also in that zone, which has become the center of economic development and industry in Italy, and now is an almost continuous megalopolis strahing from Turin to Trieste." GustoBLSJP (talk) 20:41, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Some sources to "Northern Italy", equivalent to the Po Valley are:

http://www.shearman.com/offices/detail.aspx?office=6b8bec0f-696f-4d81-9bfd-45c2baeb7195

http://www.geog.ucla.edu/faculty/shinm/files/milan.pdf "With a population of 1,400,000 in an urban region of 5.8 million, Milan is in the middle of a great “spider’s web” of smaller cities and urban sprawl on the Lombard Plain to the north of the river Po and to the south of the pre-Alpine Belt of mountains and lakes along the Italian border with Switzerland (Bartaletti 1996, 175)."

GustoBLSJP (talk) 21:25, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Economy section rationalization

The section is actually quite a mess, I tried to fix it in the following way (trying to highlight weak and strong points in an organic way), what do you think?--Conte di Cavour (talk) 16:37, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Italy has a capitalist economy with high gross domestic product (GDP) per capita and developed infrastructure. According to the International Monetary Fund, in 2008 Italy was the seventh-largest economy in the world and the fourth-largest in Europe. Italy is member of the Group of Eight (G8) industrialized nations, the European Union and the OECD.

In the post-war period, Italy was transformed from a weak, agricultural based economy which had been severely affected by the consequences of World War II, into one of the world's most industrialized nations, and a leading country in world trade and exports. According to the World Bank, Italy has high levels of freedom for investments, business and trade. Italy is a developed country, and, according to The Economist, has the world's 8th highest quality of life. The country enjoys a very high standard of living. According to the last Eurostat data, Italian per capita GDP at purchasing power parity remains approximately equal to the EU average, while the unemployment rate (8.5%) stands as one of the EU's lowest. Italy owns the world's 4th largest gold reserve. The country is also well-known for its influential and innovative business economic sector, an industrious and competitive agricultural sector (Italy is the world's largest wine producer), and for its creative and high-quality automobile, industrial, appliance and fashion design.

Despite these important achievements, the country's economy today suffers from many and relevant problems. After a strong GDP growth of 5-6% per year from the 1950s to the early 1970s, and a progressive slowdown in the 1980s and 1990s, the last decade's average annual growth rates poorly performed at 1.23% in comparison to an average EU annual growth rate of 2.28%. The stagnation in economic growth, and the political efforts to revive it with massive government spending from the 1980s onwards, eventually produced a severe rise in public debt. In 2010, the EU's statistics body Eurostat published that Italian public debt standed at 116% of GDP, ranking as the second biggest debt ratio after Greece (with 126.8%). However, the biggest chunk of Italian public debt is owned by national subjects, that is a major difference between Italy and Greece. In addition, Italian living standards have a considerable north-south divide. The average GDP per capita in Northern Italy exceeds by far the EU average, whilst some regions and provinces in Southern Italy are dramatically below. Italy has often been referred the sick man of Europe, characterised by economic stagnation, political instability and problems in pursuing reform programs.

More specifically, Italy suffers from structural weaknesses due to its geographical conformation and the lack of raw materials and energy resources: in 2006 the country imported more than 86% of its total energy consumption (99.7% of the solid fuels, 92.5% of oil, 91.2% of natural gas and 15% of electricity). The Italian economy is weakened by the lack of infrastructure development, market reforms and research investment, and also high public deficit. In the Index of Economic Freedom 2008, the country ranked 64th in the world and 29th in Europe, the lowest rating in the Eurozone. Italy still receives development assistance from the European Union every year. Between 2000 and 2006, Italy received €27.4 billion from the EU. The country has an inefficient state bureaucracy, low property rights protection and high levels of corruption, heavy taxation and public spending that accounts for about half of the national GDP. In addition, the most recent data show that Italy's spending in R&D in 2006 was equal to 1.14% of GDP, below the EU average of 1.84% and the Lisbon Strategy target of devoting 3% of GDP to research and development activities. Organized crime is a contributing factor in Italy's economic weakness. The Mafia directly controls 14.6% of Italy's GDP, and exerts influence over 13 million Italians. However, at 0.013 per 1,000 people, Italy has only the 47th highest murder rate and only the 43th highest number of rapes per 1,000 people in the world. In the latest Corruption Perception Index 2010, Italy is ranked the most corrupt among Western European countries.

At the way you stated, need many fixings. It's harmful to the NPOV. I will explain. The Mafia did not controll 15%. The Mafia receipts can reach 9% of the GDP. The Mafia did not control 13 M. italians. That's the number of people coexisting with Mafia (living in cities with strong influence of the Mafia). Other poin that hurts the impartiality is "Italy is often considered Sick man of Europe". See→http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/bill_emmott/article7112208.ece This term was used for the Ottoman Empire in the begin. of 1900, and should not be used nowadays. See my opinion above, on "Crime". The "Economy" section needs a real impartial approach. GustoBLSJP (talk) 20:11, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Some parts needs reworking, as I did before. The part about Murders and Rapes belongs to "Demographics", and it's already there (I insert), with the ranking/number of countries, to be impartial.

The citation "The Italian economy is weakened by the lack of infrastructure development, market reforms and research investment, and also high public deficit." and "Despite these important achievements, the country's economy today suffers from many and relevant problems. After a strong GDP growth of 5-6% per year from the 1950s to the early (...)" are basically the same. One of the 2 should be deleted. I suggest the "The Italian economy is weakened by the lack of infrastructure development, market reforms and research investment, and also high public deficit."

I had made the edits with clear sources. I'm not trying to "dissimulate" or "make up" the section. When i edit, i kept the citations about Mafia, infrastructure problems, low economic growth, because it has good sources and because is important to be stated. GustoBLSJP (talk) 02:39, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Nooo look, the point is not the % of mafia or other specific data, I didn't put that number, if you have a better source it's very ok...the point (for me) is the general structure of the section that is very chaotic and full of repetitions! Anyway please stop doing 20000000000 edits without discussing, you have deleted a lot of parts just because you don't agree but if there are the sources you shouldn't do it, or at least, you should discuss it before.--Conte di Cavour (talk) 23:49, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

1. "Hobsons Careers in Europe | Country profiles". Careersineurope.hobsons.com. Retrieved 2 August 2010.
2. Cite error: The named reference economist.com was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
3. "GDP per capita in PPS" (PDF). Eurostat. Retrieved 25 June 2009.
4. Ocse, tasso di disoccupazione stabile nell'eurozona
5. "Please login to download > World Gold Council, the information resource for gold, investment, jewellery, science and technology, historical and culture > Please login to download" (PDF). Gold.org. Retrieved 27 January 2010.
6. ^ "Italy – Economics". Dev.prenhall.com. Retrieved 2 August 2010.
7. "UK tops world wine imports table". BBC. 14 January 2009.
8. Nicholas Crafts, Gianni Toniolo (1996). Economic growth in Europe since 1945. Cambridge University Press. p. 428. ISBN 0-521-49627-6.
9. Eurostat. "Real GDP growth rate – Growth rate of GDP volume – percentage change on previous year". Retrieved 10 May 2009.
10. "Europolitics". Europolitics.info. Retrieved 26 January 2011.
11. http://www.cnbc.com/id/37207942/Could_Italy_Be_Better_Off_than_its_Peers
12. "EUROPA – Press Releases – Regional GDP per inhabitant in the EU27, GDP per inhabitant in 2006 ranged from 25% of the EU27 average in Nord-Est in Romania to 336% in Inner Londo". Europa.eu. 19 February 2009. Retrieved 30 October 2010.
13. "The real sick man of Europe". The Economist. 19 May 2005. Retrieved 10 May 2009.
14. "Italy: The sick man of Europe". London: The Daily Telegraph. 29 December 2008. Retrieved 10 May 2009.
15. Eurostat. "Energy, transport and environment indicators" (PDF). Retrieved 10 May 2009.
16. Eurostat. "Panorama of energy" (PDF). Retrieved 10 May 2009.
17. "European Cohesion Policy in Italy" (PDF). Retrieved 30 October 2010.
18. "Index of Economic Freedom". Heritage.org. Archived from the original on 3 May 2008. Retrieved 4 November 2008.
19. Eurostat. "R&D Expenditure and Personnel" (PDF). Retrieved 10 May 2009.
20. ^ Kington, Tom (1 October 2009). "Mafia's influence hovers over 13m Italians, says report". The Guardian. London. Retrieved 5 May 2010.
21. "Crime Statistics > Murders (per capita) (most recent) by country". NationMaster.com. Retrieved 4 April 2010.
22. "Crime Statistics > Rapes (most recent) by country". Retrieved 4 April 2010.
23. Transparency International – the global coalition against corruption. Retrieved 2 November 2010.

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