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Revision as of 20:20, 20 May 2011

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Canada: Music Start‑class Low‑importance

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There seems to be a lot of back-and-forth about gender-specific pronouns here. Simply put, Meryn Cadell is currently a man, so the phrase "she currently..." is incorrect. On the other hand, Meryn was a woman during the release of all musical projects mentioned in the article. I will leave it in the hands of someone with more experience and authority to determine whether all pronounce in the article should be changed to masculine for consistency, or if they should be mixed for accuracy. I don't even know if there is an official Misplaced Pages policy on such a situation, but perhaps it would be a good idea to have an admin step in and make a decision, so that future misguided attempts to fix this can be corrected with some degree of authority. - Ugliness Man 09:23, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I have added a sentence indicating Cadell's female gender during the period when her top 40 single, "The Sweater", was making him a celebrity. I don't know when the gender change occurred, but I consider it important that Cadell's first celebrity was achieved as a female.-Redwretch

On this subject the most NPOV thing that can be done (in my opinion at least) is to follow English convention. When the person was appearing and living as a male, a male pronoun should be used. When the person is appearing and living as a female, the female pronoun should be used. This is not about catering to someone's life choice or a special interest, nor is it about denying the transgendered. There is a subtlety to the English language's use of pronouns (and subtle is so rarely used to describe our language) that can only be properly expressed if we retain the pronoun use a person who saw them on the street would have done at the time. "He did this to him" or "he did this to her," in conjunction with the context, convey information that we all pickup on but do not always recognize. - Kuzain 19:16, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

No end in sight

Despite the above discussion, this pronoun thing continues to be an issue that countless editors can't agree on. It's gone on for too long, I am of the opinion that we absolutely need someone with authority to intervene.

The most recent edit which I reverted, changed "she" to "he" a reference to a music project. Remember, all of Cadell's musical projects (albums, singles, etc) were released before the gender reassignment. Using female pronouns in reference to those items is accurate. The person who made the edit made a reference to "transphobia". What? Nobody's saying that Cadell is some evil freak for changing teams. Nobody's saying "she was born female and she'll always be female". There is no phobia of any kind in acknowledging that she was a woman when that music was made.

Again, this is just my opinion, but the way I see it, we need someone with authority to step in. We need someone who is in a position to impliment policy to step in, make a decision, explain the decision here on the talk page, and leave a note in the HTML of the article.

This is not your standard "dispute resolution" issue, because it's not just two or three editors disagreeing on an issue. Even if everyone who has ever made an edit to this article can come to an agreement on how to deal with this issue, future editors will still step in and continue the ping-pong game. So the problem is, I have no idea how to proceed. I've explored some of Misplaced Pages's help pages about dispute resolution and other related issues, and I can't find anything that seems to apply to this specific case. I really hope somebody can help us figure out what the next step is, because I'm at a loss. And if this doesn't get settled soon, I'm going to have to just give up. I have great admiration and respect for Cadell, as an artist and a person, and I have this article on my watchlist to try to help keep it in good shape, but if this pronoun gender switch crap is going to happen every few days with no official position, I'll probably just take the article off my watchlist and try to forget this ever happened. - Ugliness Man 08:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Least invasive approach

My edit reduce to an absolute minimum the use of personal pronouns – one each of “she” and “he,” located in historically accurate positions in the narrative. This isn’t transphobia, it’s grammar.

If Wikipedians who see transphobia lurking in every pronoun will not cease defacing and reverting this article, then:

• we should remove all personal pronouns and use “Cadell” exclusively, later proposing that technique for all Misplaced Pages articles concerning transgendered persons
• we should send this article up the approval chain to be heard by the tiny cabal that actually sets policy in this putatively democratic space

I see no plausible objection, apart from paranoia, to the current edit. Contributors with a habit of crying “Transphobia!” are not, in my experience, engaged in an articulation of plausible objections. – joeclark 20:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

While I think the edit I have just read (as of Dec 13 2006) strikes a good balance, I believe that the above discussions have been about finding consensus for the purposes of appropriate pronoun use in regards to transgendered persons in general. I refer to: http://en.wikipedia.org/Changing_legal_gender_assignment_in_Canada#British_Columbia (having selected BC as that is Mr. Cadell's current place of residence). The interesting part of this to me is that it provides information on the changing of the birth certificate to alter the listed sex. I legally changed my name seven years ago (in Nova Scotia), and at that time had to surrender my original birth certificate and was issued a new one with my new name on it. I inquired about what this meant, and was informed that from a legal perspective, I had been my "new" name for my whole life, from birth forward, regardless of the fact that I had gone by another name for 23 years.

Therefore, the question is: did Mr. Cadell change his birth certificate? If so, then legally he has been "he" since birth, and it would be appropriate to refer to him as "him" for the entirety of the article, although the gender status change is certainly significant enough to mention in the introduction (as it currently is). Admittedly, this is what I understand from my similar-but-not-identical circumstance, and an opinion from a legal professional would probably be preferred.

That being said, it would be misinformation to leave the physical gender of Mr. Cadell during his recording period unmentioned, but I think an appropriate phrasing can be determined if the above standard is accepted (and, frankly, if it is sound).

thejunk24.215.70.24 10:15, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Word of advice to anonymous editor

It is not seriously in dispute that Meryn Cadell had a self-identity as male when announcing transgendered status on a radio show. Hence it is incorrect to impose what Misplaced Pages calls a non-neutral point of view on that historical period. Cadell was a a “he” during that time, not a “she.”

Gender usage for Trans Individuals

It is common respect to refer to a person who is transgender as the gender they are now living (usually male or female but there are some who use alternative labels altogether). A respectful way to address accomplishments prior to the transition is to state something like "before she transitioned", "when she was still living as a man" or along those lines. Even if the gender transition wasn't a vortex in the work arc of the artist it should still be noted for accuracy. Also referencing the legal issues of birth certificate mentioned above, trans people do care about such things but hardly rely on a piece of paper or any government to tell them what gender they are.

In my opinion, this article needs to be better organized with a much shorter introduction and expanded timeline of the artists life (which is already started) and simply reference the time frame in which the transition occurred. If there is a significant shift in the art that is tied to the gender transition then reference it there. Benjiboi 05:01, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

"Common respect" according to who? According to some artificially structured form of political correctness? When Cadell recorded "The Sweater", she was a she. He is currently a he. I think honesty, accuracy, and common sense are more important than sensitivity and political correctness. I also think that when choosing pronouns, facts are more important than guidelines, and Cadell's current gender does not in any way shape or form change the fact that it was a woman who recorded those albums. I wonder how many of the crusaders constantly editing this article to defend their personal version of "respect" have actually asked Cadell what he thinks about the whole thing. - Ugliness Man 06:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Common respect according to trans folks themselves, as you state what would the subject want? I don't think I implied in any way that the article should be less accurate just more sensitive. In this case, again, I would simply make the introduction much shorter and maybe avoid the gender issue and when appropriate address it in the timeline later in the article. If the gender transition had a deep impact on the artwork then that is a point to also reference. I'm not familiar with the article or subject just providing some real-world advice as a person who is familiar with trans issues and works with transfolk on a regular basis. Benjiboi 09:07, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 23:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Introductory content

Hi,

There appears to be some debate over the introductory sentence stating that Cadell "achieved initial prominence as a woman". On Misplaced Pages, we have to respect neutral point of view. That means that a Misplaced Pages article shouldn't take a position over whether a trans man is somebody who starts out as a woman and becomes a man, or whether a trans man is someone who has always been male and needs to take steps to make that fact clearer. We need to document that different people hold different opinions, and not use language that assumes one point of view. The fact that one point of view (the view that trans men are women) is popular or mainstream doesn't mean that it's not a point of view.

I hope that the new language will be agreeable to everyone, but if it's not, please discuss the changes here, as per Misplaced Pages guidelines, rather than reverting unilaterally without an explanation. Also, please try to keep edit summaries civil. Thanks. SparsityProblem (talk) 20:20, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

• Start-Class biography articles
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