Misplaced Pages

:Articles for deletion/Pig slaughter: Difference between revisions - Misplaced Pages

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
< Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 22:48, 20 May 2011 editDream Focus (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers39,007 edits Pig slaughter: good bye rude person← Previous edit Revision as of 23:39, 20 May 2011 edit undoMilowent (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, IP block exemptions, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers48,676 editsNo edit summaryNext edit →
Line 60: Line 60:
* '''I QUIT'''. You've spent the day returning unsourced content to the article and reverting all attempts to improve the article in some sort of "contest" to see who is going to come out on top. You win and you can have it. The game isn't worth playing. Your disruptive behavior and foolery confirms what I've long suspected about Misplaced Pages: the project is very much (not entirely) a congregation of anal personalities. And you have a place in the front pew. Don't bother responding. This is my last contact with Misplaced Pages. Pat yourself on the back for driving a newbie off the premises. ] (]) 22:20, 20 May 2011 (UTC) * '''I QUIT'''. You've spent the day returning unsourced content to the article and reverting all attempts to improve the article in some sort of "contest" to see who is going to come out on top. You win and you can have it. The game isn't worth playing. Your disruptive behavior and foolery confirms what I've long suspected about Misplaced Pages: the project is very much (not entirely) a congregation of anal personalities. And you have a place in the front pew. Don't bother responding. This is my last contact with Misplaced Pages. Pat yourself on the back for driving a newbie off the premises. ] (]) 22:20, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
:My section on pig butchering for religious reasons had a reference for every entry. And you aren't trying to improve the article, you are trying to destroy it entirely, thus the reason you nominated it for deletion. And three different editors have reverted various things you have removed, including the removal of pictures you seem to be determined to keep out of Misplaced Pages for invalid reasons mentioned in the talk page discussion. ] 22:48, 20 May 2011 (UTC) :My section on pig butchering for religious reasons had a reference for every entry. And you aren't trying to improve the article, you are trying to destroy it entirely, thus the reason you nominated it for deletion. And three different editors have reverted various things you have removed, including the removal of pictures you seem to be determined to keep out of Misplaced Pages for invalid reasons mentioned in the talk page discussion. ] 22:48, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
::Let's mourn NYFernValley's 2 day history at wikipedia. See him again soon with whatever name he chooses next time.--''']''' • <small><sup style="position:relative">]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-3.2ex;*left:-5.5ex;">]</span></sup></small> 23:39, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Revision as of 23:39, 20 May 2011

Pig slaughter

Pig slaughter (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs· FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Several reasons for proposed deletion. The page lacks citations and has been tagged for such since 2007 with no attempt to rectify the situation. The article focuses heavily on Croatian pig slaughter rather than a world view of the topic and reads like original research. Additionally, the article spins off into processing (gutting, beheading, and skinning) and butchering which are not slaughter but different topics entirely. Slaughter ends with the animal's death. In industrialized cultures, four footed food animals (cows, sheep, pigs, goats, horses) are typically slaughtered in the same way: the animal is transported from farming facility to slaughterhouse, stunned, hoisted to the rafters, its throat slit, and the blood drained. In undeveloped lands, the animal's throat is slit at home and the beast allowed to die in a wallow of its own blood. Do we really need separate stand alone slaughter articles for each food animal when the methods are essentially the same? Will not one article such as "Animal slaughter" suffice with concise, separate sections for each animal if necessary? While "merge" with "Animal slaughter" might be suggested, I'm reluctant to support because "Pig slaughter" is virtually unsourced and (as I mentioned) reads like OR. I propose deletion of this article and an expansion of "Animal slaughter" to include separate sections on specific food animals with appropriate citations, or simply the industrialized slaughterhouse method versus the homestyle method. NYFernValley (talk) 16:05, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

  • Delete nn essay which rambles off topic. Leave redir to Animal slaughter; do not merge. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 18:18, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Keep The slaughter of pigs as a specialist trade goes back to ancient Sumeria. It has distinctive features such as scalding which are particular to the pig. As the pig is a major type of livestock, the topic has great notability. For an example of a source detailing this, see here. Our editing policy is to develop this material not to delete it. Colonel Warden (talk) 21:18, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Comment. Scalding is not slaughter. It's processing and doesn't belong in an article called "Pig slaughter". Neither does butchering, packaging, advertising, selling, or cooking. All food animal slaughter is essentially a "specialist trade" in the industrialized world but this is no reason to expect a separate stand alone article for pigs or every other four footed food animal. The titbit about Sumeria can be accomodated in a separate "Pigs" section in an "Animal slaughter" article. True, pigs are major human food animals (except in Jewish or Islamic societies), but giving pigs a stand alone article means sheep, goats, horses, cows, and other four footed farmed animals such as deer should have their own stand alone slaughter articles when essentially the procedure used for pigs is also used for other four footed food animals: the animal is led to the killing floor, it's stunned, hoisted to the ceiling, its throat slashed, and it's blood drained until the animal is dead. Period. I don't see "Pig slaughter" as it stands an article worth keeping for the reasons above, and I don't see the reason for a dozen stand alone "slaughter" articles about other animals destined for the dinner plates of humans when the same procedure is essentially used for all.
      • Your premise is wrong, the scalding and butchering is all part of the general description of "slaughter" (see wikt:slaughter), plus it's explicitly part of the tradition that is widely recognized as "pig slaughter". --Joy (talk) 07:32, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Keep. The verifiability argument is valid, but you actually have to contest that - either you claim that it's outright unverifiable and unsalvageable, which would warrant deletion, or you don't. The "I don't know, it seems fishy" stance is a poor reason for deletion. But, you're actually missing how the tradition is anything but solely local (Croatian), rather it's spread across continental Europe - notice how numerous editors added the local names from Portugal to Ukraine. If you examine the article history you'll notice how it includes content from an earlier article about pig slaughter in traditional American hog pens, too. In any case, the article already speaks in no uncertain terms about the general agricultural practice of pig slaughter, that section is placed first, and there's nothing apparently wrong with it. You could claim that explaining the tradition in detail puts undue weight on the topic, but that again isn't cause for deletion, instead it can be a reason for splitting the article (as it was once before). The technical distinction between the sole act of slaughter and the other relevant actions it is not important enough to warrant removing the whole context - the slaughter does not happen as a standalone notable act that would warrant its own article, whereas the whole process named after it does. And finally, I think your exceedingly negative opinion about pictures that seem perfectly relevant to pig slaughter betrays a negative bias. --Joy (talk) 22:36, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Comment. Joy, I don't enjoy being attacked and being accused of a "negative bias" because I removed some questionable pics. Two pics were not germane to the topic but rather to butchering and food preparation, and the other was gruesome. Personally, I loved the pics, I relished them, most of my life has been spent looking at pics of pigs being bled, but Wikipeida doesn't display pics that are inappropriate to the topic, offensive, frightening, gruesome, pornographic, horrific, revolting, or disgusting. Animal slaughter is deliberately conducted in the industrial world behind closed doors and far from the common gaze. Guided tours of slaughterhouses are not conducted for the public. It doesn't take a genius to figure out why. Let's err on the side of common decency, good taste, and caution. There are external links where the curious can get their fill of pigs being slaughtered. Pics can be sent to Commons and the "Misplaced Pages Commons has media related to this topic" link placed at the foot of the page. Gruesome pics placed within an article force readers to view them. In the final analysis, I believe this article can be deleted and the "Animal slaughter" article expanded to incorporate any necessary details about pig slaughter. This article is unsourced and has been tagged since 2007. No one has ecpressed any interest in citing sources. Misplaced Pages is not a how-to so there's no reason to incorporate the Croatian step-by-step into an article whether sources exist or not. NYFernValley (talk) 00:10, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
      • OK, let's be serious. The draining of blood is an integral part of a process commonly known as "pig slaughter". Pig halves are the main product of the same process. The gruesome nature of the pictures literally stems from the gruesome nature of the process itself. The article is improved by having them, you're not really doing anyone a favor by censoring them just because they're ugly. People won't come to the encyclopedia to avoid seeing the actual nature of a topic, they will come to see the facts, and the fact is that this stuff happens. I don't think the claim that this behavior is beyond common decency and good taste is valid, because then the whole practice and the profession of butchers would tend be outlawed, which it most certainly isn't. --Joy (talk) 07:25, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
  • OK, let's get serious. Draining the animal's blood from a slash to the throat is common to the slaughtering of all food animals and a gruesome photo is not necessary to convey this information. Words are enough. Abortions happen but you're not going to see a photo of a bloody aborted fetus at Misplaced Pages. One could argue such a photo would be "informative" but it shouldn't be dangled under everyone's nose with a "this is real, this is it, you must look because it's real!" rationale. No one is forced to go into a slaughterhouse to see a pig being slaughtered. However, readers are forced to look at this gruseome photo whether they want to do so or not. I wonder if the guy in the photo is somebody's uncle and that's the reason the pic is here. I've written rhis business up on the Talk Page. NYFernValley (talk) 20:08, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Keep Plenty of valid information for those interested in the subject. A lot of information wouldn't fit in another topic about animal slaughter in general, so needs its own article. If some of the information is redundant then it can be discussed on the talk page for trimming. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water . Google Book search for "pig slaughter" and "religious" shows some results as does this search when adding in the word "ceremony". If anyone has access to any of these books, it'd help a lot. My Credo 250 account is surprisingly worthless. There are times throughout history where different cultures did pig slaughtering for religious ceremonies though, as evident by the summary results that appear. Dream Focus 01:14, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Comment. "Valid information"? It's unsourced! Where's the "validity"? Any information in this article should be sourced and then sent to a separate "Pig" section in "Animal slaughter". This is the point I am trying to make: pig slaughter is no different from the slaughter of other four footed animals in the industrialized world and does not merit a stand alone article whether sources are found or not. With trimming and reorganization, "Pig slaughter" can be incorporated into the "Animal slaughter" article. The Croatian/Serbian stuff can be sent to its own stand alone article because it's so specific, so narrow, and creates "undue weight" here and would even do so in a "Pigs" section in "Animal slaughter". BTW, Joy who proposed KEEP above is "from Croatia", according to her user page. NYFernValley (talk) 02:53, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
      • There are sources in the article. I added some myself just now. If you see anything that you believe needs a source, then tag it . I created a section for pig slaughtering done for religious reasons. Dream Focus 09:41, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Saw it and sent it to Animal sacrifice where it belongs. There's a See slao at the end of this article. Unless there's something unique about the slaughter method itself -- the animal is stabbed in the stomach rather than the throat, for example -- I don't understand why your info should be include here. A link to animal sacrifice is sufficient. NYFernValley (talk) 20:08, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Keep All the problems described can be fixed by simply altering the existing content or its title. There is zero evidence to suggest that the topic itself is not notable or verifiable. In other words: we never delete articles just because they need cleanup. Steven Walling 01:29, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
    • Comment. There is zero evidence to suggest that the topic itself is not notable or verifiable. The article is unsourced! Isn't that evidence enough! The article is OR! If this article can sit in the project for FOUR YEARS unsourced then why should ANY article be sourced? But you're missing my point. Pig slaughter in the industrialized world is little different than the slaughter of any other four footed food animal and thus does not merit a stand alone article. A "Food mammal slaughter" article with separate sections for cows, pigs, sheep, deer, etc. is sufficient and so the "Pig slaughter" article can be deleted. NYFernValley (talk) 02:53, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
      • You don't need a million sources to know that some things are notable. Pig, dog, sheep, cat and all the activities related to them are pretty much obvious. Since the main purpose of domestic pigs is to be eaten, an article about their slaughter, butchery, and all the various cultural traditions thus related is quite obviously necessary. In any case, other editors have already pointed out to you that it's quite easy to find related source material if you just search Google Books. Steven Walling 07:00, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. LadyofShalott 07:12, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Comment. The topic is only notable when high quality, reliable sources are entered. It isn't notable because it is something that happens every day. You probably pick your nose every day but this is not notable until high quality, reliable sources are provided. Smithfield slaughters 36,000 pigs a day. A record. But only notable (according to Misplaced Pages standards) when sources are found and entered. I'm not going prowl about looking for sources for this stuff. There are other things I prefer to do and don't have the time to take this enormous business on. I'm not going to clean some irresponsible editor's mess up. Those who vote KEEP can take this mess on. NYFernValley (talk) 17:38, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

  • Comment - I attended a traditional-style slaughter of a hog in Mexico when I was a kid. It was akin to the description of traditional methods in this article. The experience was actually quite interesting. I'm of the opinion this is an encyclopedic topic. I feel secure that sources are out there. I also agree that the current rendition emphasizing Croatia reads like original research. I have no opinion as to how to proceed, other than to say that deletion would be a mistake and leaving things unchanged is also not a great option. Carrite (talk) 15:58, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment. I don't envy you; I understand backyard slaughters are horrific and I'm in no hurry to witness one. One hundred years ago, children ran from the site of slaughter terrified and crying. They jumped into to bed, covered themselves with pillows so they couldn't hear the squeals of the pigs. They would be saddened and terrified for the days and weeks following. You seem to be an exception. Yes, pig slaughter is an encyclopedic topic BUT you're all missing the point. Pig slaughter is little different from the slaughter of other four footed food animals whether the slaughter is accomplished in a high tech slaughterhouse or the backyard. And because there is little difference one main article such as "Animal slaughter" is sufficient, with separate sections for each animal. This is not a broad topic. The pig who has his throat slashed in a Croatian backyard is no different from a pig who has his throat slashed in a Mexican backyard or a lamb, a cow, a goat, a horse that has its throat slashed in dozens of areas around the world. Read my lips: The process is the same and because the process is the same there is no need for umpteenth individual articles scattered across the project detailing exactly the same slaughtering methods! I understand backyard pig slaughter in Croatia has recently been made illegal so I'm not sure we need a detailed description of every slash of the Croatian knife and every guzzle of wine. Do we need to know Croatians drink some sort of wine during the slaughter? Why? And where are you going to find a reliable source for this claim? What does drinking wine have to do with the pig slaughter? I imagine Croatians drink wine at other times. Perhaps a list of "Wine drinking times in Croatia" would be an appropriate article. The Croatian pig slaughter stuff has been around for a long time and was probably written to promote Croatia. It should be cast off as a separate stand alone article with a "references needed" tag at its head. Then we can foget about it. I'm not optimistic that every eingle line in the Croatian description is going to be sourced to a high quality, reliable secondary source. It's obvious the passage is OR. It seems the Ayes have on this discussion so I'm wasting my time here. Have a nice day. NYFernValley (talk) 17:38, 20 May 2011 (UTC)


  • Keep - a search on WorldCat for pig slaughter yields results that indicate this is a notable topic. Just a few:
    • Microbiological investigations of pig slaughter operations, by Rachel Ann Pearce; University of Ulster
    • Pig slaughter, cutting and curing by Paul Heap; South Australia. Dept. of Agriculture
    • Studies on traditional pig slaughter practices on pork production and quality. by Anish Antony
    • The influence of weighing precision on delivery decisions in slaughter pig production by Erik Jørgensen --LadyofShalott 17:01, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment. Wonderful. Now go through the article line by line entering citations appropriately. The object is not to mog through Google books looking for sources but to enter citations in the article. Anyone can dredge up sources at Google but there's no one who wants to do the dirty work of entering citations into an article that is someone else's mess. NYFernValley (talk) 17:45, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Keep While I personally dislike this kind of thing, it appears to be a clearly notable topic. I don't think we should delete articles on notable topics because the present draft is unsourced or unfocused. I found a few more promising sources on Google Books: Qrsdogg (talk) 17:20, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
WP:NOTCLEANUP. The AFD is to prove the article's subject is notable enough to have an article. If you believe the current sources in the article aren't enough, then you can add the rest yourself. If you sincerely doubt any of the information, then you can tag it with . Dream Focus 20:07, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Keep, a most educational and encyclopedic topic. Appropriate for inclusion, and obviously noteworthy and notable, as well. -- Cirt (talk) 19:21, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
  • The person trying to delete this article has gone through and wiped out a good size chunk of it. . If you want the entire thing deleted, then discuss it in the AFD please, don't go chopping out large chunks of it during that process. I'm reverting you. Dream Focus 20:18, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment The Croatian stuff now has its own article Croatian and Serbian pig slaughtering, processing, and butchery because the stuff is too local and too narrow for this article. It should go to a "Croatian customs and traditions" section in the Croatia article but the page is locked so I couldn't drop it there. I sent the pig religious sacrifice stuff to Animal sacrifice where it belongs. Unless there's something really special about the way a sacrificial pig is slaughtered (thrown in the fire alive, stabbed in the anus, dropped 100 ft from a temple roof), the stuff doesn't belong here. NYFernValley (talk) 21:17, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
I disagree. Continue the discussion on the talk page of the article please. Another editor just reverted you. Dream Focus 21:55, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
  • I QUIT. You've spent the day returning unsourced content to the article and reverting all attempts to improve the article in some sort of "contest" to see who is going to come out on top. You win and you can have it. The game isn't worth playing. Your disruptive behavior and foolery confirms what I've long suspected about Misplaced Pages: the project is very much (not entirely) a congregation of anal personalities. And you have a place in the front pew. Don't bother responding. This is my last contact with Misplaced Pages. Pat yourself on the back for driving a newbie off the premises. NYFernValley (talk) 22:20, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
My section on pig butchering for religious reasons had a reference for every entry. And you aren't trying to improve the article, you are trying to destroy it entirely, thus the reason you nominated it for deletion. And three different editors have reverted various things you have removed, including the removal of pictures you seem to be determined to keep out of Misplaced Pages for invalid reasons mentioned in the talk page discussion. Dream Focus 22:48, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
Let's mourn NYFernValley's 2 day history at wikipedia. See him again soon with whatever name he chooses next time.--Milowent 23:39, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
Categories: