Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 08:39, 24 June 2011

Misplaced Pages Mediation Cabal
Article	Abortion-rights movement
Status	Open
Request date	22:41, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
Requesting party	-- Eraserhead1 <talk>
Parties involved	Eraserhead1, Anthony Appleyard, Roscelese, HuskyHuskie, NYyankees51, Andrew c, CWenger, among others
Mediator(s)	User:Steven Zhang
Comment	Taking case, reviewing discussions.

Request details

Where is the dispute?

Talk:Abortion-rights movement#Move?, but previous discussion has occurred on the other article talk pages.

Who is involved?

• User:Eraserhead1
• User:Anthony Appleyard
• User:Roscelese
• User:HuskyHuskie
• User:NYyankees51
• User:Andrew c
• User:CWenger
• User:Binksternet

Acceptance of Mediation

Please place your signature here to indicate that you are aware of this mediation process and want to participate in it:

• -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:48, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
• I accept, but we need to invite more involved people - see here. NYyankees51 (talk) 03:15, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
• I accept, and as one of the main users involved in starting the last few move discussions, I would be happy to provide background on my motivations for doing so. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:05, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
• –CWenger (^ • @) 17:40, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
• DeCausa (talk) 18:58, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
• LedRush LedRush (talk) 19:17, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
• Oh look... Another pro-life move discussion! Well, it's not like I have a Wikiproject to run, or a portal to get to Featured, or anything like that. Sign me up! I really have nothing better to do. Maybe we can get a couple hundred more editors signed up and bring the whole Pedia to a standstill. – Lionel 21:16, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
• Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:20, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
• I added myself. Binksternet (talk) 05:06, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
• I added myself, too, en passantbecause I wasn't sure I had to. PhGustaf (talk) 07:17, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

What is the dispute?

The issue is that the Abortion articles have become confused, we can't decide what the best title for the pro-life and pro-choice articles are, and whether they should actually be merged into Abortion Debate. Move requests have been made but have failed to be closed promptly and haven't been conducted particularly well.

What would you like to change about this?

I would like the discussion to come to a sensible conclusion so we can decide how to structure the content in a way that everyone is happy with.

How do you think we can help?

Help us work out what the best way of structuring the content is, possibly with some less conventional methods of figuring out the best solution (e.g. straw polling). Some outside eyes would be useful here.

Mediator notes

Taking case. Will have a look over discussions then post my thoughts. Steven Zhang 23:21, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I've done a lot of reading of the discussions, and have a few points to make. For the side of the debate in favour of pro-life/pro-choice, people have stated it is in common use on the internet, that they are parallel terms which don't present either subject in a more favourable light. Opposition to this name state that these terms are ambiguous, propagandist, loaded, and not of a neutral way that can be used on Misplaced Pages. There was also the issue that Pro-life is not a specific term, and that it could also refer to other topics.

The other side of the debate, which is accepting of the Abortion-rights/Anti-abortion state that the term is clear and encyclopedic and of a neutral point of view, with the main objection being that it presents one side of the debate (Abortion-rights) in a positive light with the other side (Anti-abortion) in a negative light.

This is a contentious topic, and opinions are clearly split pretty much down the middle. This one is going to require a compromise, and I don't think it's going to involve either of the names. We need to agree on two different names, that neutrally describe the articles. While one term might be clean and encyclopedic, with the other being commonly used, simply restating it here over and over again won't get us anywhere. Something needs to be done to stop these constant move discussions.

After doing some thought, I've thought of 2 possible names that the respective articles can be moved to. While not in common use, they are encyclopedic, and factual, and don't present either in a more positive light to the other.

Proposed:

• Move Abortion-rights movement -> Support for legalized abortion
• Move Pro-life movement -> Opposition to legalized abortion

These are not commonly used terms, however I feel is a reasonable compromise I feel we could agree to. The discussions have been going on for too long, and this a contentious dispute where real-life opinions weigh in. This isn't a case where discussions will change opinions of appropriate page names to be used (for the names that have been discussed). I feel the names I've proposed should work, not because they're in common use by RS, which generally is needed, but because they're neutral and factual descriptions of the articles, without any of the discussed issues associated with them. Sometimes we need to IAR in order to come up with a good solution. Let me know what you think of this proposal, but at the moment these discussions have been a tug-of-war, and I hope this proposal cuts the rope. Steven Zhang 21:47, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

@LedRush- You say that one of these names has a tinge of non-neutrality. Could you clarify which one, and why you feel that way, as I am unclear as to how the names I've proposed could not be neutral. Simply put, both articles discuss the topic of legalized abortion, with one being in support of the idea, the other being opposed to the idea. These proposed names state basic facts, the article contains information on the viewpoints, whether in support or opposition, on the matter of legalized abortion. I'm not sure how more neutral we can get there, but if you feel there's a way we could improve this, please let me know. Steven Zhang 01:21, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

@LedRush- It depends on how you look at it. It's more about the context of how it's used. Personally, I don't see "support of legalized abortion" more favourable than "opposition to legalized abortion". They're facts. Some people support the idea of legalized abortion, and some do not. The title isn't there to convey a viewpoint as much is it's to describe the content in the article. I agree it might not be a page name that ticks all the boxes for common usage as such, but it accurately conveys the topic of the article. The lead of the article can clarify commonly used names, but I feel this title would be the best compromise possible in this case. Steven Zhang 03:28, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

@Nyyankee- From my reading and review of the discussions, there's no clear consensus for either article name. In the most recent discussion, opinions are split quite evenly, with reasonable arguments for both sides. From my reading of the discussions, an alternative article name is required, one that all can agree to. Hence why I've proposed this. Disruptive or not, an article name all can agree to is necessary, and from my assessment as a mediator, a change is needed. Simply discussing over and over the current article names has clearly not accomplished anything, and I think this will solve the issues. Steven Zhang 05:03, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

@Lionelt - As for your edit summary, it should end here. I'd like to point to my original comment, this dispute involves real-life opinions. We need to push these aside. Whether people who edit the article support or oppose abortion is irrelevant, and should not be reflected in the article title. Changing the title to what I've proposed would do that, and would end this debate, if all will agree to it. See my comments above. Steven Zhang 05:22, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

• Regarding the issue of how a consensus here would be implemented, it's quite simple. If there is a consensus to implement the changes I have proposed, I will make them, citing this mediation case. A requested move will not be required, as consensus will already have been made. Steven Zhang 07:52, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Administrative notes

Discussion

The last move request is unfortunately going to be extremely difficult to close. I did push quite hard to argue no-consensus so we could come back to it later, but its quite clear that noone else really agrees with me. This way hopefully we can look at all the options, including moving the articles back to where they started, or merging them, or moving them to abortion-rights/anti-abortion. The reason I've asked for mediation is to help solve this dispute. I'm not particularly interested in which way its solved, but I feel this is a better approach than letting the current move discussion run on for two months and then get closed unsatisfactorily to quite a few people like the last ones have. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:40, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

@Steven, that sounds great. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:49, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

@Steven, Gordian Knot. Totally support your proposal. DeCausa (talk) 21:54, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

(ec)I also like Steven's suggestion. The alternatives we've tried are weighty, imprecise, or both — these are clear. I'm sure some won't be happy with them, but I suggest they consider the amount of futile struggle this issue has caused and think hard before starting it up again. PhGustaf (talk) 21:59, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

I can get behind this too. The names are virtually never used but they are most definitely neutral. –CWenger (^ • @) 22:08, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

The names are not commonly used, and one still has the tinge of non-neutrality, but I'll sign up to end this never-ending dramafest. A solution could be much worse than this, and Steven is to be commended for thinking outside of where we all were.LedRush (talk) 23:05, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

@Steve: Well, the clear improvement would be to keep things the way they are or use pro-life movement and pro-choice movement. These are well used, have established meanings, and are self identifiers. As with anti-abortion rights, there is generally a little negativity associated with an "anti" position (or an opposition). Sure, opposition to slavery and Hitler is all peaches and rainbows, but it is generally considered better to be for something than against it. For example, I would doubt that many people would prefer to be called the "opposition to fetal rights movement". However, your solution sucks less than the endless wikilawyering going on here but a few entrenched editors and their POV terms, so that's why I reluctantly agree.LedRush (talk) 03:08, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Steve's solution would be a good one, but it's not needed - consensus in 'two discussions with a wide range of editors was clear not to move pro-life, and there was no consensus to move pro-choice. A few editors are being disruptive by making a new move request every month because they don't like the results of the others. NYyankees51 (talk) 04:37, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

The Zhang compromise suggestion of Support for legalized abortion and Opposition to legalized abortion is inspired. I think it should be implemented. Binksternet (talk) 05:08, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more with NYY. The proposal to "move pro-life to anti-abortion" has failed at pro-life repeatedly. Now the strategy seems to be start a discussion to move pro-life in every venue except pro-life. In the last month or so there have been discussions at Abortion, Abortion-rights, user:Eraserhead, and now here. Yes, you read that correctly: they started a discussion at a user talk page, closed it as "Support", and them merged the article. If it wasn't so pathetic it would be hilarious. Dozens of editors have been wasting away with this issue all year instead of improving the pedia. Why can't the pro-abortioners just give it up??? 05:15, 24 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lionelt (talk • contribs)

Speaking as a totally non-involved editor, I have to say this seems an eminently sensible solution that Steve has proposed, and one which you guys should all go for. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 05:30, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

How would we go about adopting this solution anyway? I assume this would have to be presented as a normal move request and gain consensus like any other? –CWenger (^ • @) 05:50, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

I presume Steven will tell us in due course, but everyone who was listed on the talk page has been informed, so I don't know if its necessary to do a move request if a consensus is found here. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:24, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't think ignoring WP:COMMONNAME is a good solution at all. WP:POVTITLE clearly states that common name overrides concerns about neutrality. I don't think we as editors have any right to be the judge over whether or not Pro-Choice and Pro-Life are appropriate names for these movements. Reliable sources have already made that choice for us. The main objective of Misplaced Pages should be to describe things the way they are described by reliable sources, not to make normative judgments about how things should be described.TheFreeloader (talk) 08:01, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

What have reliable sources chosen? To my eyes reliable sources use both terms - the numbers using pro-life certainly isn't significantly higher enough to definitely require using that if you feel anti-abortion is more neutral - thus you will have an endless discussion - and thus why Steven's compromise is required. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:09, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, how about just looking at Google books hits which shows about a four or five to one ratio in favor of pro life. Google news archives shows about the same ratio. To me that looks like pro life is pretty clearly the common name.TheFreeloader (talk) 08:35, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

• Speaking for everyone, and I think that I can, the only issue here is Pro-life. Noone cares what the pro-abortion article is called. Pro-abortion, pro-choice, abortion rights. Who cares? No one cares. That article was moved, renamed, merged, and 2 maybe 3 people objected. But try to move Po-life and as Bette said "It's gonna be a bumpy night." All year Pro-life has been the target of intense move efforts and the only inroad was to add "movement." Proponents of moving Pro-life have invented all manner of schemes to eradicate it, this latest one included. We need to call a spade a spade. This discussion really is about excising a term highly objectionable to Pro-abortionists: "pro-life." Yea. I said it. This is a scheme to get rid of pro-life, part of a larger war of attrition, of ad nauseaum discussion. Well, it aint going down like dat.– Lionel 08:39, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Move to speedy close without prejudice

Considering that the move discussion at Abortion rights is barely 1 week old this discussion is premature and should be closed pending the outcome there. Only until an admin closes that discussion will we know if there is a bona fide unresolved dispute. Should an amicable result be achieved there, this discussion will at best be redundant. At worst, should this result differ from an amicable result at abortion-rights, the entire situation would devolve into pandemonium and widespread anarchy. The participants at abortion-rights would claim their result is definitive, participants here would claim likewise.

We should wait and see if the pro-abortion people object to the result at abortion-rights and if they do they can always come here to try out a new venue. Are you with me? – Lionel 05:52, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

• Support Definitely support. Wish I'd have thought of this. – Lionel 05:52, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose "Only until an admin closes that discussion will we know if there is a bona fide unresolved dispute." Are you kidding? This solution is heading to a consensus, where no other is. DeCausa (talk) 06:59, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
• 'Oppose because the current discussion is basically uncloseable, and because you are almost certainly going to have another move request regardless of how its closed. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:20, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Move Request closed

FYI the current move request has been closed as no consensus. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:38, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

(after ec, but details added) Would have Opposed, but it's kind of a no-op because an admin has closed the discussion on the abortion-rights page as no consensus already. His rationale is worth reading. It does make sense to involve fresh minds on the matter. PhGustaf (talk) 07:45, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

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