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	==THE VARANGIANS: Who were they ? (permission granted for use of some of the quoted text)==

	Times have changed. The Soviet Union has fallen and its totalitarily guarded history writing is in quick process of being unraveled. Thanks to the electronic media as well as the fastly developed DNA technology, the improved knowledge of past weather patterns, the newly discovered results of the latest archaeological excavations, etc., the history writing now more than ever is beginning to based on true science, and not so much on lies and propaganda.

	Historians often mention the Varangians in connection with certain events on the Eastern shores of the Baltic and northern Russia. Let's look at some explanations from different perspectives. The term is generally thought to come from Swedish, but many Finnish researchers, such as ''Kuussaari'', claim it has a Finnish origin.

	According to one Finnish sources, they are identified as "Scandinavians," but the original Varangians were probably actually Fenno-Scandians. (Kuussaari, 1935) The Finns are conspicuous for their absence in both Swedish and Russian (Slavic or "Great" Russians) accounts. Varangians quite likely originally were Baltic Finns, distinguishable from Swedes by their Uralic language. They lived on the shores of Western Finland and Estonia/Livonia and the Baltic islands, and were later joined in their guard duties by the Swedes, who - among some others - were called Vikings.

	(Kuussaari, 1935) This is called the "Riga, Åland, Gulf of Finland triangle." Vikings are often equated with Varangians, who came to consist of both Finns and Swedes, as the latter turned eastward and joined the Finns in the beginning of the second millennium. Varangians never invaded the British Isles - those invaders are called ''Vikings''.

	Russian accounts suggest that eventually there were more than one kind of ''Varangian''. They knew of several types of Varangians, and they generalized the term to include Swedes, as the Finns became a part of the Swedish realm. A symbiotic relationship formed between the Finns and Swedes who helped to fend off the Slavs. The Finns and the Swedes got along well, and there is no written record of any significant fighting between the two cultures. The relationship, however, slowly turned rather parasitic in the beginning of the 1600's, since Sweden benefitted from the Finnish soldiers, but Finland - on the other hand - suffered.

	When the Vikings went East, it was with and under the sanction of inhabitants of the Baltic shores - eg the Finnish ''Tavastians'', ''Karelians'' and ''Ingerians''. Originally they were, according to Kuussaari, Finnish soldier merchants, who had an excellent reputation as good guardsmen because they had to protect their western and eastern flanks. Unfortunately, the Varangian theory - which is taught in schools - was the Swedish version, which took away from the Finns their ancient heroic ''Kalevalan'' heritage. No matter, the Finns were to go their own way and become a great country in their own right.

	During the "great migrations", these people developed into various warrior types such as Kaleva, Kolbias, "kalpamiehet", Karelian "kylfings", and others who had come to some type of mutual understanding regarding what territories each group controlled, and - above all - the organization of armies. They were merchant warriors that formed an alliance to protect against Viking raids from the west so that some warning system would be in place even during their long journeys.

	They had developed elaborate early warning systems, based on relay shoreline fires, so that the minute a Viking or any other unfriendly ship appeared, the curl of smoke could be seen in fires, off into the distant Baltic. It was previously thought that these seafaring people had adopted the Viking ship as their means of transportation and built excellent large ships with at least a hundred oarsmen.

	However, the early Finns had Viking style ships of their own, and they were seafaring people already from earlier times, - based on yet more evidence from the most recent discoveries - long before the Viking raids began to the eastern shores of the Baltic, as we can also clearly see from the ancient rock art found in Karelia. This rock art resembles similar early art found in Sweden.

	Kuussaari claims that the word Varangian comes from the Finnish word "vara/vartio", which in Finnish means "guard" and "vaara" means "danger" or "hill." Fires were lit on hills, which were part of their early warning system. This worked very effectively and the people in charge of the organization became known as Varangians. The Finnish epic Kalevala mentions these people, their activities and the ''vaaras'' - the ''fells'' - where they lit fires at.

	Place names with "vara" stems were located in the Varangians' domain. The prefix was extensively used in the coastal and island areas controlled by the Finnish tribes who had adopted spme Swedish seafaring ways, which included ships with oarsmen.

	For example (In Finnish and - the closely related - Kven languages): ''Varangin vuono'' (the ''Varangian Bay'' - ] in Norwegian, ''Varjag vuoda'' in Lapp (i.e. Sami); ''Varangin niemi'' (the Varangian Bay); ''Vargava'', ''Varanka'', ''Varanpää'' (Lokalahti); Also ''Vargata'', ''Varjakka'', ''Varkal'', and many others who were soldier traders who travelled all the way to the Volga to trade with the Bolgarians - and beyond.

	(Kuussaari, 1935) The term ''var'', according to Thomsen, comes from the old Swedish word var (= faithful), but Kuussaari does not agree, that this meaning is connected with the word. The Vikings too were faithful. However, they never were referred to by that term. The var word is therefore connected with guarding. In the absence of hard facts to prove these assertions, one has to consider all possibilties, keeping in mind that the Finnish position in the North is always downplayed, while the Russian and the Swedish roles are magnified by royal historians.

	The Finnish language is almost always considered to have received words from the Germanics and Slavs, but hardly ever to be the donor. Dictionary.com: http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=varangian - varangian \Varan"gian\, n. One of the Northmen who founded a dynasty in Russia in the 9th century; also, one of the Northmen composing, at a later date, the imperial bodyguard at Constantinople.

	Not everyone agrees therefore, that Varangians were Baltic Finns, and the search for the source of the word "Varangian" and "Viking" is continued by some scholars. Usually a Swedish derivation of most words is the accepted one. The term in some English dictionaries is said to be from the old Norse word "Väring."

	] ] - 15:27, March 15, 2006


	==The Finnish Theory of Rurik and Varangians==

	The mere fact that this confusion exists amongst scholars, tells us that the Varangian term broadened so that no clear denotation could be made. The Vikings probably could not travel East without first having come to terms with the guardians of the Eastern Baltic shores. When the Vikings came to Russia, they came accompanied by the Finns who knew every river, forest and lake, and were excellent warriors, and guards. They also knew where all their ancient trading centers were located. When they met the Russians for the first time, it was natural that the Russians would refer to them as Varangians, and they soon came to realize that there were different kinds of Varangians.

	The meaning of "Varangian" which is most pervasive, is that of guardianship. It was the Finns who had the reputation for being good guardsmen, while the Vikings had the reputation for being sea wanderers, traders and raiders. Vanrangian guards, not Varangian sea-wolves. Varangian guards, not wanderers. That is the legacy of the excellent reputation for guarding that the Baltic Finns acquired in the ancient world, which merged with the term "Viking." Confusing ? Much of ancient history is, because everyone wanted credit for themselves at the expense of other ethnic groups; it is the duty of historians to dig down to the truth.

	Much of ancient history unfortunately is merely ancient propaganda. Mongolians are said to be bad invaders. But were they worse than Russians or Romans? Were the Russian invaders gentle, while the Mongolians were fierce. Did they spare less people? Probably not, for everyone was cruel to their enemies in those times. We should read about history from as many sources as possible to avoid getting a historical bias. Still today the Russians lament the Mongolian raids, and the Finns lament the Russian raids. Can anyone claim they were better, including the Finns? Who were worse off, the Russians under attack by Mongolians or Uralic people under attack by Slavs? I suppose the the results would answer that: destruction of Uralic tribes, survival and increase in Slavic population.

	Could the Varangian's world have been part of the ancient Kingdom of Finland mentioned in the Nordic sagas? The Finns' heritage, the knowledge of their vast ancient kingdom - was it taken away by the new Swedish rulers and the Slavs from the south? The Nordic Sagas and other independent sources of the time seem to indicate just that. When the Catholics too brought their religion to Finland via Sweden, did they also change Finnish history ?

	And the Slavic historians cannot - unfortunately - be trusted with even their own history let alone that of another ethnic group, due to their documented omission and falsification of history to glorify themselves at the expense of other ethnic groups. Even today, a strange silence about the original people prevades the official descriptions of Russia. Very little is mentioned about even the people shown in official travel pictures, which obviously aren't Slavs, while they go to great lengths in describing the glories of Slavic (equated with Russian) culture.

	Very few people are aware of the fact that the Slavs murdered most of the ethnic Finno-Ugric cultural heros, both in this century and centuries gone by. Considering that the whole north, from the Ural Mountains to Norway, was populated by Finnish tribes, it seems odd that no great importance has been attributed to them in the Swedish or Russian literature, and when it was, it was often in the negative. The Russians openly state that the Finnish people were never in any high positions. Today we see the same attitude in the fascists in Russia who claim that the North never even belonged to the Finns - that the Slavs are the original people of the North. The Finns merely squatters. Clearly, a lot of work remains to be done to reveal the true nature of ancient Finnish civilization in the North, of which the Kalevala and the Nordic Sagas suggest.

	When the Vikings eventually joined the Varangians (now they are ''Vikings'', ''Varangians'' and ''Rus'' too) in their guard duties, about the time the slavs were setting up shop in the north, the Russians referred to them too as Varangians, as well as possibly others such as Angles who may have joined them. Vikings were never referred to as Varangians on their own raids to western Europe, which is natural, since they were Vikings, not Varangians. I n Sweden, they were Vikings, but when they entered the Finnish realm, they too became ''Varangians''.

	The Finnish term "Varakko-ruotsit" (Varangian-Rus) refers to these seafaring Finnish people according to Kuussaari. The word (ros=row in old scandinavian) "ruotsi"in Finnish used to mean "rower," but later the word meant "Sweden." Some Swedish sources say that "Rus" comes from the word "Roslagen" which is a town in Sweden, and some say it came from Swede called Ruser.

	They established trading posts on the Volga and assisted the eastern Finns, and even the Slavs in the business of trade. Rurik and his accompanying Varangians camped in the Finnish areas around the north of Novogrod amongst the native Finnish-speaking population. We can be fairly sure that many of his men were Finns. The Varangian routes spread out through Russia to the Mediterranean, and they eventually became trusted guards of the Emperor in the Byzantine Empire.

	Many Varangian trading posts were situated along the rivers such as the Neva and Volga, and Lake Ladoga, that have been the possession of the local Finns for millennia. The story is told that when Rurik defeated the strongest Slavic settlement, Novgorod, in A.D. 862, the Varangians became the rulers of northern Russia, with Finns assuming many of the leadership roles (according to Finnish history) especially north of Novgorod. Russian history denies that Finns were ever in any leadership roles whatsoever in Russia, but the truth is that the local Finns demanded Finnish speaking representatives. We must be careful in judging history from just one perspective. This area on some 14th century maps was still labelled Rurima. (Rurikland or Rurinmaa in Finnish)

	For political reasons, the Swedes and Slavs tended (and continue to do so) to downplay the role of the Finnish related people in the north. It is not fanatical nationalism to correct history. Nor is it revisionism. It is simply the search for the truth. As in geneology, one must be prepared to find a horse thief or murderer, or stop digging. However, historians of Soviet Russia, the Kings of Sweden and the Czars were obliged to glorify the crown and erase the heroic deeds of the adversaries. History thus handed down leaves the reader with the idea that Finland was inhabited by savages before the Swedes.

	True, the Finns did not have a written history to remind them how they lived in the past until the Swedes arrived. However, as the epic poetry of the Kalevala reveals, the Finns had a high level of civilization for a long time before either the Swedes or the Russians came to their lands. Since their history was a rich oral tradition, it could not be destroyed in a fire, or robbed, and it is through this evidence that early Finns are able to contradict Swedish and Russian written accounts about the role and extent of Finnish civilization in the north prior to Swedish rule. This is why any serious student of Finno-Ugric history must have a working knowledge of the Kalevala.

	One thing is for certain: the Finnish traders traveled east long before they were joined by Swedes. Would it make sense that the Russians came into contact with Finnish "Varangians" or traders first, then both Swedish and Finnish when the Finns came under the Swedish kings in the second millennium ? This may be the reason Vikings were not called Varangians in Britain. Russians came into contact with first Finnish speakers, then Swedish speakers. Did the Russians change the name when the Swedes joined, or keep the original term?

	Under Swedish rule, the Finns were obliged to serve in the Swedish army. Their strength was greatly reduced by the Swedish kings' ambitions far away from Finland, especially in Poland and the disastrous march on Moscow that followed. During this time, while the door to the henhouse was open, Russia helped itself to Finland, Ingria, and Estonia. The Slavs had arrived on the shores of the Baltic while the Swedish army was destroyed on the same road Napoleon took years later. They were free to establish permanent cities closer and closer to Finnish northern and Baltic strongholds, especially St. Petersburg - on Ingerian Finnish land.

	In 1701 Swedes invaded Poland, enthroned their loyal king Stanislaw Leszczinnsky, and made the country their new ally. Then Karl XII decided to finish Russia once and for all.
	Timeline to Disaster
	-In 1708 Karl XII detached a well-trained army of 60,000 to Moscow.
	-September of 1708 the Russians smashed Leeuwenhaupt's corps in the battle of Lesnaya. The anti-Moscow campaign failed. No supplies from Poland.
	-Hoping to capture provisions, Swedes invaded Ukraine.
	However, the Swedish Army failed again.
	-Russians left Swedes behind and gained the Hetman's quarters of Baturin City with the main food storehouses.
	-In spring of 1709, forces of Karl XII besieged Poltava, and the decisive battle broke out. Russians enjoyed a significant numerical superiority of 45,000 soldiers against 22,000 of Swedes. And again, the Swedish assault on the Russian line failed. The battle of Poltava was the turning point of the war that came to end with Russian triumph in 1721.
	-Russia consolidated its grip on the Baltic shore.
	Parallel history: Hungarians, Norwegians and Northern Finno-Ugric tribes.

	Hungarians have left their ancient home near the Ural mountains by 835 and in around 878 are just about twenty years from entering their new homeland in the Carpathian Basin.

	In England, Alfred battled the Viking Guthorm on Salisbury Plain, near Ethandun (now called Edington). Guthorm retreated back to Chippenham after the battle. Alfred pursued him there and surrounded the Viking camp. He killed the loose cattle and the men he found outside the walls, keeping any food and water from coming into the Viking Guthorm's camp, Within two weeks, in late May, 878, Guthorm and his army surrendered and accepted total defeat of the plan to conquer Wessex.

	] ] - 15:27, March 15, 2006


	==The Viking Othere's Voyage to the White Sea==

	"Othere told his lord, King Alfred, that he lived farthest to the north of all the Norwegians. He said that he lived by the western sea in the north part of the land. However, he said that the land extends very much further north; but it is all waste, except that Lapps camp in a few places here and there, hunting in winter and fishing in the sea in summer.
	He said that on one occasion he wished to find out how far that land extended due north, or whether anyone lived north of the waste. Then he travelled close to the land, due north; he left the waste land on the starboard and the open sea on the port all the way for three days. Then he was as far north as the whale-hunters ever travel.

	Then he travelled still due north as far as he could sail for the next three days. Then the land turned due east - or the sea in on the land - he did not know which; he knew only that there he waited for a wind from the west and a little from the north, and then sailed east, close to the land, for as far as he could sail in four days. Then he had to wait there for a wind directly from the north, for at that point the land turned due south - or the sea in on the land - he did not know which. Then from there he sailed due south, close to the land, for as far as he could sail in five days. There a great river extended up into the land. Then they turned up into that river because they dare not sail beyond the river for fear of hostility, because on the other side of the river the land was all inhabited.

	Previously he had not met with any inhabited land since he left his own home. But to the starboard there was waste land all the way, except for fishers and fowlers and hunters - and they were all Lapps; and there was always open sea on his port. The Permians had cultivated their land very well; but they dare not put in there. But the land of the Terfinns was all waste, except where hunters or fishers or fowlers lived. The Permians told him many stories both of their own land and of the lands which were round about them; but he did not know what the truth of it was, since he did not see it for himself. The Lapps and the Permians, (See map in historical map section. "Perm" is derived from the Finnish word for hinterland) it seemed to him, spoke almost the same language. (Finnish and Lapp are both Finno-Ugric languages and to an outsider, may sound similar).

	He travelled there chiefly - in addition to observing the land - for the walruses, because they have very fine bone in their teeth (they brought some of those teeth to the king), and their hides are very good for ship's ropes. This whale is much smaller than other whales: it is no longer than seven ells long. But the best whale-huhting is in his own land: those are forty-eight ells long, and the largest fifty ells long. He said that, as one of six, he slew sixty of those in two days. He was a very wealthy man in that property in which their wealth consists, that is, in wild animals. When he visited the king he still had six hundred tame animals unbought. They call those 'reindeer'; of those, six were decoy reindeer; they are very valuable among the Lapps because with them they capture the wild reindeer. He was among the first men in the land. Nevertheless he had no more than twenty cattle, and twenty sheep and twenty swine, and the little that he ploughed, he ploughed with horses.

	But their income is chiefly in the tribute that the Lapps pay them. That tribute consists in animal skins and in bird feathers and whale-bone and in the ship's ropes which are made from the hide of whales and seals. Each one pays according to his rank. The noblest must pay fifteen marten skins, and five reindeer, and one bear skin, and ten ambers of feathers, and a bear- or otter-skin coat, and two ship's ropes, both to be sixty ells long, one to be made of whale's hide, the other of seal's.

	He said that the land of the Norwegians was very long and very narrow. All that they can either graze or plough lies by the sea; and even that is very rocky in some places; and to the east, and alongside the cultivated land, lie wild mountains. In those mountains live Lapps. And the cultivated land is broadest to the south, and increasingly narrower the further north. To the south it may be sixty miles broad, or a little broader; and in the middle thirty or broader; and to the north, he said, where it was narrowest, it might be three miles broad to the mountains; and then the mountains in some places are as broad as one might cross in two weeks, and in some places as broad as one might cross in six days. Then alongside that land to the south, on the other side of the mountains, is the land of the Swedes, extending northwards; and alongside that land to the north, the land of the Finns.

	Sometimes the Finns made war on the Norwegians across the mountains; sometimes the Norwegians on them. And there are very large freshwater lakes throughout the mountains; and the Finns carry their boats overland to the lakes, and make war on the Norwegians from there; they have very small and very light boats. Othere said that the district in which he lived was called Halogaland. He said that no one lived to the north of him. In the south of the land there is a trading-town which they call Sciringesheal. He said that a man could sail there in a month, if he camped at night and had a favourable wind every day; and all the time he must sail close to the land. On the starboard is first Ireland, and then the islands which are between Ireland and this country. Then this country continues until he comes to Sciringesheal, and Norway all the way on the port side. To the south of Sciringesheal a very great sea extends up into the land; it is broader than any man can see across. And Jutland is opposite on one side, and then Zealand. The sea extends many hundred miles up into the land.

	And from Sciringesheal, he said that he sailed in five days to the trading-town which they call Hedeby; this stands between the Wends and the Saxons and the Angles, and belongs to the Danes. When he sailed there from Sciringesheal, then Denmark was to the port and open sea to the starboard for three days; and then for two days before he came to Hedeby there lay to his starboard, Jutland, and Zealand and many islands. The Angles dwelt in those lands before they came here to this country. And for those two days there lay to his port those islands which belong to Denmark."

	] ] - 15:27, March 15, 2006


	==Who are the Kven People ? Where is Kvenland ?==

	The Northern Finnish "Kainuu" people were called Kven by the Swedes, Norwegians and Icelanders. The Kingdom of Kvenland ruled the North for hundreds of years. Kvenland people lived on the North half of the Gulf of Bothnia, on the Western, Northern and Eastern shores.

	These mysterious people ruled the North for millennia. They were a "Kalevala" people like the Karelians. The Finnish National Epic "Kalevala," which was composed of Karelian songs and stories, describes these heroic people of the North. Although they are related people, they often clashed in their struggle for control over certain areas.

	The Kainuu people were after the riches of the fur and related trade. They settled at the main rivers such as Kainuunjoki and Tornionjoki in the north, and established trading centers at the mouths of these rivers. These rivers were at the Eastern end of the Atlantic trading area. Kemijoki area was also in their control, which pointed toward the Arctic Ocean. The tributaries of these rivers offered good access to the land and its riches. In the distant past, these were the exclusive domain of the Saami (Lapps) but due to their nomadic habits, they were easily displaced and placed under the taxation of the Kainuu people and their Kings. The Saami were gradually displaced from their traditional areas including Lake Laatokka (Ladoga), until today they live mainly in Northern Norway, Sweden, Finland and the Kola Peninsula in Russia.

	Sable skins were highly prized by civilizations all over the continent, in fact all the way Arabia and beyond. Four hundred years ago the animal was still found in Kola, but now only in Siberia. The Arabian Ibn Ruste wrote in 912 that the "Rus" lived by hunting and trapping Sable and Squirrel. He meant the Northern people who were known in the Eastern world as "Rus."
	Some say that the Swedes were "Rus" - but according to Ibn, they were Western Finns, as they were the main providers of furs. The Kainuu people controlled the fur trade in the North, so it is likely that these were the people Ibn was dealing with. They became quite wealthy through this trade and by taxing the Lapps. The Saami moved away from their traditional areas that the Kainuu people now controlled. Their old Gulf of Bothnia dwelling places were taken over and they moved North and East: Utajärvi - Pudasjärvi - Oijärvi - Tervola - Ylitornio.

	Ottar, or Othere, who was in King Alfred's service in the 800's mentions these people and their lightweight boats with which they traveled from river system to system with ease in their movement West and Northwest into the Norwegian domain. Until finally they came into contact with Halogaland farm boys... (Continued with more information about the Finns)

	'''Sources - Bibliography:'''

	Jutikkala, Eino, with Kauko Pirinen - ''A History of Finland''. Amer-Yhtymä Oy, Espoo 1979
	Patoharju, Taavi - ''Suomi tahtoi elää''. Sanoma, Pitäjänmäki 1958
	Zetterberg, Seppo / Tiita, Allan - ''Suomi kautta aikojen''. Otava 1992
	Kuussaari, Eero - ''Suomen suvun tiet''. F. Tilgmann Oy, Helsinki 1935

	] ] - 15:27, March 15, 2006


	== Who lived in north-eastern Scandinavia during the Viking age ==		== Who lived in north-eastern Scandinavia during the Viking age ==
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	:::::::I stopped to understand Wiglaf's accusations several months ago. Probably he needs a break from all the tough editing he makes latterly. --] \| ] 17:04, 30 December 2005 (UTC)		:::::::I stopped to understand Wiglaf's accusations several months ago. Probably he needs a break from all the tough editing he makes latterly. --] \| ] 17:04, 30 December 2005 (UTC)


	==The comments vandalized and removed from here by user ] ]==

	As we know, some of the Wikipedians participating in the discussion and commentating here lived still very recently - and some still live - under a tidely guarded totalitarian society.

	Unfortunately, - used to the systems imposed and forced to them - a part of these people try now imposing the same totalitarin ways and their totalitarily forced ("taught") information to the world community in large.

	Some of these people in question persistantly refuse to even consider viewing anything but the distorted lessons taught to them in their totalitarily led school systems, under which much of the most important events of the world history were widely and commonly falsified to fit the needs of the totalitarian leaderships.

	The Misplaced Pages user ] ] participates in this type of tatalitarian type of bahavior, when the information he faces does not fit what he has previously believed or thought was right.

	The discussion comments in the beginning of this page as of today - relating to who the Varangians were and to where they came from - present a very valid view point, and must be left untacked or vandalized by the Misplaced Pages user ] ].

	] ] - 15:27, March 15, 2006

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Who lived in north-eastern Scandinavia during the Viking age

In the "Varangians" article it appears stated in Misplaced Pages now that "the Varangians (Russian: Variags, Варяги) were Scandinavians who travelled eastwards, mainly from the northeastern parts of Scandinavia, in what are now Norway and Sweden".

That sentence tells part of the throught. We ought to let the Misplaced Pages readers also know who were the people living in north-eastern Scandinavia at the time. Earlier, we could see Misplaced Pages informing its readers as to who (which peoples and/or tribes) lived in north-eastern Scandinavia (where the Varangians "mainly came from") during the Viking age.

In Scandinavia and elsewhere there is a widely and commonly accepted understanding and consensus among historians and researchers regarding the undisputed fact that during the Viking age the people inhabiting the north-eastern Scandinavian areas were Finns who were also known as Cwens in historical texts, and Samis, botht being members of the so called Fenno-Ugric family of peoples.

At the time, from the north-western coastal areas of the Scandinavian Peninsula also the Norse were making advances up north towards the north-eastern coastal areas of the Scandinavian Peninsula. Similarly, from the east (south-east) the Finnish Karelians and Slavic groups such as the Novgorodians were making advances towards the area in question as well.

Please, allow this important fact remain in the text. We shall now make a reference to the text regarding the historical Cwenland area in northern and north-eastern Scandinavia, part of which belongs to the modern day Republic of Finland, not only to the kingdoms of Norway and Sweden.

old talk

The following phrase removed

<-- said by whom? not in the mentioned chronicles --(these Slavic and Finnish tribes are said to have rebelled against a previous Scandinavian rule) -->

Varangians ARE the first mentioned rulers of Slavs, of hypothetically Scandinavian origin. It looks like the above statemnt resulted from a series of editorial "improvements". Mikkalai

Mikkalai, have you ever read the primary chronicle???? It explicitly says what YOU pretend it does NOT.--Wiglaf 12:39, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Yes I did read it. It does NOT say what I say it does not. Read for yourself.

Въ л4то 6367. Имаху дань Варязи из заморья на Чюди и на Слов4енехъ. Мери и на Вс4хъ и на Кривич4хъ.

Въ л4то 6370. Изъгнаша Варягы за море и не даша им дани. И почаша сами в собъ володати. И не б4 въ нихъ правды, и въста род на род, и быша в нихъ усобиц4, и воевати почаша сами на ся. И р4ша сами въ себъ:"поищемъ соб4 князя, иже бы влад4лъ нами и судилъ по праву." И идоша за море къ Варягомъ, к Руси, Сице бо ся зваху ти Варязи Русь, яко се друзии зовуться Свее, друзия же Урмане, Англяне, инии Г4те.

The text says only that initially Varangians collected contribution from slavic-fennic tribes, but neither they ruled nor lived there. (text says: varangians from over the sea). Of course, one can speculate differently, but it will be only speculation. Not to say that the chronicle itself is a third-hand source of these times.

So let's not translate it into our understanding, and say what it says: varangians robbed slavs, then were driven away, then were invited specifically to rule, and say it with the proper attribution, too.

If you have any other original source on this issue, you are velcome to quote. Mikkalai 17:59, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

As for Rus == Swedes, the Chronicle specifically says: "These varangians were called Rus, just as the other ones were called Swedes, still others were Germans, Angles or Goths. So that was their name." Mikkalai 18:21, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Yes, but "Swede" was not a simple concept in Viking age Scandinavia. There was the Swedish king, but he was the king of peope who usually only called themselves, Geats, närkingar (Nerike), västermän (Westmannia), södermän (Sudermannia), Gutar (Gotland, the Goths of the chronicle), and Ros-byggjar (Roslagen). If you want to have a look at the controversy of "Swede", look at Ancient Uppsala.--Wiglaf 18:45, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Exactly why do you consider this piece irrelevant? : "The Slavic inhabitants called these Swedes Rus'." Inform me, please.--Wiglaf 19:01, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Sorry for being imprecise. This detail better be confined to the Rus' article. Also, there are no Slavic sources from the 8th century to confirm your claim. Also, it is very likely that at these times the Ladoga area was inhabited by Fennic peoples, rather than Slavs. Mikkalai 20:06, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Of course, the Ladoga area was in most likelihood settled by Fenno-Ugric tribes before the Slavs. My question concerns why you removed a piece that was inserted 19:40, 10 Jun 2003, by Adam Bishop. I find it relevant and will put it back.--Wiglaf 20:29, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The phrase in question cannot be as a matter of fact with respect to this time frame. For these times for which documentation is scarse one must be very careful. Thre is too much misinformation and loosely grounded conjectures and extrapolations on this issue floating around already. Either you prove it, or it is out. Mikkalai 22:07, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

OK, so after over a year, you demand conclusive proof for the veracity of a sentence. Since the text consequently needs some revision, I have moved a discussion on early Russian scholarship to the page where it belongs.--Wiglaf 05:27, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

We don't have conclusive info about some things related to certain times. How would you like a phrase: "Varangians lived in Kiev in 7th century and were known as Rus"? Where is the burden of proof? there are well-known things, at least easily verifiable, and there are not so easily verifiable ones. I've never heard of someone conclusively claiming that slavs called someone Rus in 8th century or earlier. faldan?rustah?saint bertran?constantine? Which other early references are missing? If there are such, then most definitly they would be extremely important to be referred here as an important argument. Mikkalai 01:58, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

We do have one source, the authors of the Primary Chronicle. Every time I read it, I am struck with the pride the author shows of being Slavic. Still, when he describes the "Rus'" he clearly states that they were Varangians (who he defines as Scandinavian and Anglo-Saxon), and that they came from across the sea. He clearly states that the Rus' were Varangians and that the Varangians who settled in Eastern Europe were called "Rus'".--Wiglaf 15:41, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Now I seem to uderstand what our problem is. I am not arguing against that slavs called them Rus. I am arguing against the date. It is 860 in the chronicle, which is 9th century, not 8th (people got confused over centuries in this way all the time). Of course, one may reasonably extapolate that 60 years ago they were most probably called Rus as well. But we are talking about solid evidence here. Mikkalai 16:19, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I am sorry but what is solid evidence? There is rarely anything you can call solid evidence in academia. If everything written in Misplaced Pages was based on solid evidence, I don't believe that there would be many pages. What we can say is whether most scholars agree on this or that.--Wiglaf 20:44, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Yes, you better be sorry :-). The problem is not with evidence, but with interpretations thereof. In our case there is nothing, zilch, nada to interpret in the first place. Mikkalai 23:54, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

There is a source called the Primary Chronicle written for Slavs and by Slavs. In this text a Slav or Slavs call those Varangians "Rus". I call it a source, you call it "nothing, zilch, nada". We can agree to disagree.--Wiglaf 19:51, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Sigh... You are not listening. (or you have a short attention span and comment only very last sentence in the discussion, out of context. Shall I recount the whole discussion each time I make a new comment?) I don't question the fact itself. Yes, YES, YES!!!, I do agree slavs called them Rus. I am questioning the date, the timestamp, the year when it was reportedly happening. We don't know about the 8th century. We know only it is reported for the 9th century. If you know any report related to 8th century that mentions the word Rus as used by slavs, please, don't withhold this information. Mikkalai 21:39, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Calm down. I agree with you. I thought you meant "ever".--Wiglaf 15:30, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

We do know, however, of a non-Varangian Rus (Rhos) that populated the northern coast of Black Sea in 7th century, according to "Zhitias" of various Greek saints written by Greek chroniclers. Shakhmatov tried to get around this problem by trying to introduce the "early wave of Viking expansion" but had no archaelogical evidence or written accounts to support it.

Yeesh, if I knew three years ago, when I heard about Varangians for the first time, that they were so contentious a topic, I would never have bothered studying them :) Adam Bishop 05:32, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, in the West it is not a contentious subject. The main reason why I am interested in it is because my wife is Russian and has a phD in history. My mother-in-law is a professor of history at the Academy of Science in Moscow. Let's say that Rurik and Poltava are part of my life.

My wife says that the problem with the role of the Varangians in the creation of Kievan Rus' is that some people in the former Soviet Union feel that it is a "national defeat".--Wiglaf 17:08, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Why don't you call it pluralism instead? I smell double standard here: when two americans speak differently, it is democracy, when two Russians disagree, it is stupid brawl, and when a Russian disagrees with an American, it is WWIII. Mikkalai 23:54, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

For the record: I don't doubt in validity of Normanist theory. History knows quite a few cases when a bunch of tough guys seize a power in a foreign land only to dissolve in the local population, possibly leaving some of nobility to remember their roots. And I see no particular glory in varangians but their skills to keep power in their hands. Mikkalai 00:08, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I quoted a RUSSIAN.--Wiglaf 19:51, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Is there, by any chance, a written source supporting Varangians was vikings? One source, a single place it is written that they were vikings? Dan Koehl 19:47, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well, off the top of my head, there is the account of Liutprand that dicusses some Varangians returning home to Sweden from Constantinople, through Germany, and the German emperor imprisons them because he thinks they may be spies for the Danes (who were what we consider Vikings). Adam Bishop 06:16, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

why were the varangian warriors considered so powerful and dangerous if they were "always defeated"? also by this time greek fire was no longer in use. the mythical status of these people had to come from somewhere, as did the desire for them as mercenaries.

Harald Harfagri

Recently an anon tried to replace Harald Hardraada by Harald Harfagri. The latter article (or a redirect?) seems missing. Can anyone fix the miss? Mikkalai 18:53, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

OK. I did it myself. Mikkalai 18:56, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The evolution of this article

I have had this article unwatched for a few months and I discovered that the Normanist version is given in the past tense and limited to 18th century Germans, whereas the anti-normanist version is given in the present tense. Moreover, non-existent Norse sagas are referred to. Mikkalai et al, can we start a serious discussion on why this is considered NPOV?--Wiglaf 22:33, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I guess that I will have to read every article about this matter now, to check what has happened.--Wiglaf 22:46, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I guess so. Why didn't you have it on your watchlist? Being a non-expert, I detected this substitution of Haralds by simply being naturally suspicious to anons. Much other stuff could have passed thru my eyes unnoticed. Mikkalai 00:02, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I unwatched because I was very tired of this controversy. I will have a look at the pages in due time.--Wiglaf 06:54, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Source for term viking

No source has stated that vargian was vikings, see my question above. I remove the term viking. Dan Koehl 14:03, 16 May 2005 (UTC) if any queries Contact: Abishek email: abishek07@gmail.com

Greek fire

Why was Greek fire removed?--Wiglaf 20:13, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Origin of the name Varangian

There is a geographical region in Northern Norway called Varanger. In Norwegian the people living around the White Sea have always been known as Varangians. These fact have been used by Norwegian national-romantics to claim the Varangians as Norwegians. Though this is obvioulsy not accurate, it seems plausible that the term Varangian stem from this area, rather than the glacial period mentioned in the article. --Tokle 13:18, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

That sounds interesting. Do you have any sources on this etymology?--Wiglaf 17:43, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think Thor Heyerdahl mentions it in his book about the origins of norse mythology "Jakten på Odin" (The hunt for Odin). But I might be wrong. --Tokle 10:22, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Primary Chronicle

I wonder why Ghirlandajo does not bother to consult the Primary Chronicle before making accusations. Here is a quote in Russian:

В год 6367 (859). Варяги из заморья взимали дань с чуди, и со словен, и с мери, и с кривичей. А хазары брали с полян, и с северян, и с вятичей по серебряной монете и по белке от дыма.

It clearly says that a large part of European Russia paid tribute to the Varangians before the famous invitation.--Wiglaf 20:58, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

map

the map depicting tribes living in today's eastern europe has perhaps an error. slavic tribes are shown in the are of the carpatian mountains, nevertheless it is known that these mountains were inhabited largely by romanic people. i must stress that the area inhabited by romanic people was quite large thus not to be ignored.

I strongly disagree with the text by the map - neither Baltic tribes nor the so called Chudes were cultures in non-European Russia!

Please see also my comment on the discussion page of the map. 80.235.61.87 18:02, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Danes?

Danes are Scandinavians as well, so the sentence from the top of the article "this term also includes the people of Denmark and England" should probably be changed to "this term also includes the people of England".

The wording might be confusing at the moment...what it is trying to say is that the people the Varangians came into contact with didn't know or care how they divided themselves at home, and considered Scandinavians, Germans, and English one big group. The Varangians were actually Swedish, usually, but later also included Danes and English. Does that make any more sense? Adam Bishop 04:02, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

About the map

Cwens/Cwenland

An anon contributor from 213.216.199.xxx continues pushing his theory without discussing and providing references. Until he starts discussing, his contributions will be reverted on sight. mikka (t) 20:55, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Ghirlandajo's theories

Ghirlandajo reverted to a lead section where northeastern Scandinavia was the main source of Varangians. I would really love to see solid references for his theory that the Varangians were Fenno-Ugric.--Wiglaf 20:49, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. I don't know what the fuck is going on in this page anymore, there seems to be a four-way edit war. Wiglaf, I am not insisting Varangians came from Norway, and this is not original research. If they didn't come from Norway, just remove it! Christ! Adam Bishop 07:27, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Read this: assume good faith.--Wiglaf 10:34, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Same to you :) Adam Bishop 22:57, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

"Gentlemen! You're not supposed to fight in here...this is a WARROOM!" :) Please correct me if I'm wrong, here Mr. Bishop, but you were probably thinking of the Varangian Guard's most famous member, Harald Hardråda of Norway. He and his fellow Norges won much reknown (and booty) in the service of Constantinople. But Harald and his stout lads were the exception. Most of the Varangians appeared to be Swedes. The Norwegians tended to sail westwards. The Jomsvikings, who included members from all over, are sometimes misidentified as Varangians. So it is easy for confusion to reign on such matters...this period is not called the Dark Ages for nothing. I'm no expert...I could'nt read a Runestone if you paid me a million dollars (but I would certainly be willing to learn fast and try;). But let's have good faith all around, and a horn of Wiki Ale, ere we sail on our voyages. Peace Brothers--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 01:58, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes I suppose I may have been...or maybe it's not very useful to divide Norway and Sweden (and Denmark) 1000 years ago as if they are their modern identities. I apologize for being so abrasive, I am more frustrated with the Finnish/Cwenland person than anyone else in particular. This is happening quite a lot lately on other articles too, and I should probably take a break. Adam Bishop 03:49, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I would agree with you, except these divisions which took place 1000 years ago are the origins of their modern identities. We are prisoners of our pasts. I do agree about the Finno-Ugric part. I don't see how Ghirl came up with that. Might as well say the Varangians were Hungarians, it would make about as much sense. Sigh, I know what you mean... I might need a Wikibreak too. A dear friend of mine has just bid the project farewell plus I've got this Annoying twit stalker bitching me out over my FA. I really want to cry havoc and let slip a few choice words of the sort you've used here. But I think I'll have a beer and go to bed instead. Cheers--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 09:27, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure why Wiglaf thinks that was Ghirlandajo, it was User:Carolina de la Gardie (and a bunch of IPs before that). Maybe something got confused in all the reverting that was going on. Adam Bishop 16:28, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I stopped to understand Wiglaf's accusations several months ago. Probably he needs a break from all the tough editing he makes latterly. --Ghirla | talk 17:04, 30 December 2005 (UTC)