Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:36, 16 March 2006

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Welcome

Welcome to my Talk page. Please feel free to leave me messages here.

If you respond to me on the Talk page of an article and I don't get back to you promptly, it's ok to drop me a brief reminder. However, please don't have discussions with me here that belong elsewhere, since I'll only have to move the text out to the proper place. If you repeatedly place text here that belongs elsewhere, I will eventually tire of moving it and will instead delete it outright with no further notification. You have been warned. Alienus 23:31, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Messages go here

Hi Alienus, - just wondering... How did you fix the red link on the Richard Salsman article. Another user added it and I could not for the life of me figure out how to fix it. The link to the same thing worked for me in the related concepts section of the article. Thanks for any help you can give. HSchickel 02:55, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

No special trick; the link had a typo in it. To avoid typos, I tend to cut and paste, which is an occupational hazard. Alienus 02:58, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Thank you HSchickel 03:03, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Mormonism and archeology

Thanks, but I don't think I'll be getting involved in reverts. All I'm looking for is a clear statement of fact, which is that the genetic data does not support the Book of Mormon narrative. That should be completely uncontroversial, but as you've noticed, where faith and science meet, controversy ensues <g>. -Nunh-huh 04:52, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, lots of things are uncontroversial, yet immediately and repeatedly reverted. Just saying that if they try to edit war to remove this, don't let yourself run afoul of the arbitrary 3RR. I'm more than happy to chime in. Alienus 09:16, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

And now they are trying to fix the vote

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:StanZegel#Jesus_Article_Vote Robsteadman 13:14, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Re: User:Raisinman

I, too, noticed the "too quick" edits of this new user. You suspect sockpuppetry; who would the user behind the sock be? It may be a sockpuppeteer I've run into before. KHM03 00:59, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not certain, of course, but I suspect it's Jason Gastrich again. Perhaps someone could do an IP check to confirm. Alienus 03:13, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd have guessed Kdbuffalo. I've seen the IP checks done but have never initiated one. KHM03 11:41, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

As I said, I could be wrong, but the pattern does fit Jason, and one of the first items he vandalized was an external link that was not flattering to Grastrich. Since then, however, he's dived into the current Jesus debate over the mention of historicity, which is an odd topic for a newbie to get involved in, and suggests that he may well be a puppet of one of the more ardent supporters of a historical Jesus. Is this something Kdbuffalo would do?

Anyhow, while I certainly know how to track people by IP, I don't have the admin access needed to determine what accounts use what IP's. There's a bit of information about this here. Perhaps tagging the account as a suspected sockpuppet may suffice to get the attention of admins. If not, the next step would likely be an RfA. Alternately, this page lists the names of the holy few who have CheckUser access. For now, I'll go ahead and mark the guy as a suspected puppet. Alienus 15:33, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Kdbuffalo has used numerous anonymous socks and has been a disruptive editor, unreceptive to consensus building (he may be better now...I haven't dealt with him in a while). I haven't had too much contact with Jason Gastrich, but know he was a presence at the inerrancy article at one time. I'm going out of town for a few days but will see how things are whenI return. KHM03 17:33, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Jason is still around, and frequently creates puppets. He struck earlier today, even. Have fun out of town; we'll see how this plays out. For now, I'll be reverting any vandalism by this user on sight. Alienus 17:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

More unfortunately, all these socks and vandals add gasoline to a raging bonfire. This is starting to get on my nerves (again). I do not thrive on suspicion and conflict. Most normal people don't. BTW I consider Gastrich to be a false prophet.Arch O. La 18:34, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm a bit low on patience with the current content debates, myself. These issues are controversial enough without the appearance of cheating through sockpuppets and voter recruiting. Alienus 18:37, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Some of us find it better to engage in silly math humor until the bonfire subsides. It's sort of an absurdist protest. Arch O. La 18:55, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

From past observations, I think I should point out that while waiting for some kind of evidence that Raisinman is a sockpuppet, you still need to stay within the 3RR policy with regard to your reversions on his talk page. I'm not going to involve myself with this, but I can guarantee that there will be some admins prepared to block you for it if you keep doing it. Cheers. AnnH ♫ 01:31, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

From past observations, there are some admins prepared to block me for scratching my nose. The last time around, I reported someone for a 3RR violation and got myself banned instead, which is where the Chinese legalism rant came from.

It is my understanding that users flatly are not allowed to remove legitimate, current warnings from their Talk pages, and doing so is equivalent to blatant vandalism, so 3RR does not apply. For that matter, I'm not sure that 3RR applies to user's Talk pages in the first place.

On top of that, it's painfully clear that my motives are good. This guy is unamibiguously a vandal and I'm working to figure out whose sock he's puppeting, so to speak. If there's an admin who really wants to block me for this, then Misplaced Pages's got at least one person who shouldn't be an admin.

Frankly, if I hadn't been burned so many times when dealing with admins, I'd go make a request to have that vandal's Talk page Protected, but I'm not going to bother. I'm going to let others deal with this bozo and focus on actually contributing to articles. Twice burned, once disgusted. Alienus 04:52, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Hello again. I don't have time to reply right now, but I have just left a message on KHM03's talk page concerning this matter. And I do know that replacement of removed warnings from someone's talk page does not fall under the 3RR exception. AnnH ♫ 12:53, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

See here...he stopped using the account the day before Raisinman showed up. Could be coincidence, could be something else. Also, see here to get a flavor. KHM03 18:55, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Just FYI -- I've requested a checkuser for Raisinman/Kdbuffalo. If he is a sock, he's violated WP:3RR at Jesus. KHM03 22:25, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Good move and thanks for keeping me in the loop. Alienus 22:30, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

User:Raisinman and User:BECPL have been blocked indefinitely for being sockpuppets of User:Kdbuffalo. KHM03 12:00, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Ayn Rand - Gay Rights

Thx for the reference - from your last version

Rand was more candid during the two Ford Hall Forum lectures at Northeastern University, in response to questions from the audience. In her 1968 lecture, she said, "I do not approve of such practices or regard them as necessarily moral, but it is improper for the law to interfere with a relationship between consenting adults." (Ayn Rand Answers, p. 18) In 1971, Rand repeated this party line, then explained that homosexuality "involves psychological flaws, corruptions, errors, or unfortunate premises", concluding that homosexuality "is immoral, and more than that; if you want my really sincere opinion, it's disgusting."

This quote is indicitive of the complexity of her views. I see her personal opinion of the behavior as reflecting much of what society as whole felt; however, because of her strong opinions about government not interferring with private behavior (economic or moral) she maintained "philosophical purity" by publicly supporting the gay rights movements desire not to be regulated by the governement, which is even more remarkable considering the last sentence. However, I see nothing particularly anti-gay by her corresponding view that there not be favorable treatment either. Thus, her views, IMHO, are too complex to be summarized by the categorization that you have proposed. Trödel&#149;talk 19:48, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

1) To say that her personal opinion was reflective of society at the time is not any sort of defense. All you're saying is that society as a whole considered homosexuality to be immoral and disgusting, which does't give her a free pass. How impressed would she have been by the argument that, since society as a whole opposes atheism, we can't hold anyone accountable for personally opposing atheism? Fundamentally, the issue is not whether her views were typical of society at that time, but whether she opposed gay rights. If, as you say, society as a whole opposed gay rights and she was typical, then you're saying she opposed gay rights.

2) You call it pure, I call it oblivious. Somehow, she understood that there's something wrong with the government discriminating against gays, but didn't see why that same reasonable standard should apply to society at large. This blindness was likely a result of her anti-government beliefs, leading to a rejection of positive rights, including all gay rights that are positive.

3) It's not just that she was against homosexuality on a personal level; she actively opposed the gay rights movement as part of her opposition to the "collectivism" of the feminist and sex lib movements.

4) In short, she opposed homosexuality, many gay rights (the positive ones) and the gay rights movement, while supporting some gay rights (the negative ones). I think all this makes a fine case for her being actively opposed to gay rights, but all I'm recommending is that we include her into the pro and con categories, since she fits both. I don't see any sort of sound counter-argument to this. Alienus 21:39, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

1) Believing something to be morally wrong and disgustion does not equal oppostion.

2) There is a difference between government action and personal action. Rand believed we should be free from government control in all respects including the right to discriminate for whatever reason we want whether we choose to discrimnate against members of the opposite sex in our selection of sex partners, or to discriminate against Bill because we don't want smokers in our office.

3) The references for this are not as clear as you have summarized - in fact the entire article you cited has verifiability and POV problems.

4) Because she is not notable in this regard. Trödel&#149;talk 11:46, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

1) Correct but irrelevant. As you said, merely thinking something is immoral does not automatically equate to opposition. However, using your status as a public figure to speak out against it and write books that bash it does qualify. She has certainly done both.

2) There are lots of differences, but not all of them matter. If you decide that discrimination becomes acceptable the moment it's not the government actively doing it, you are favoring discrimination, pure and simple. Moreover, your two analogies fail in any way to be analogous. Who I have sex with is a matter of personal taste, not economic import. As for Bill the Smoker, he's free to work in any office he likes, but he might not be free to smoke in all of them. What he does on breaks or in his personal time is his business.

3) If you have supportable, concrete suggestions, make them. If you have negative generalizations, keep them to yourself. Life is too short for such nonsense.

4) When a public figure calls homosexuality "immoral" and "disgusting" in front of a large public audience, then goes on to say that we should allow discrimination against homosexuals, just so long as it's not being done by the government, this is NOTABLE.

I'm wondering if you have stronger or newer arguments than these, because I've refuted them more than once already and it's getting boring. 17:18, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I understand your responses. I am also not as up on Objectivism as I could be, as, other than the current references of this dispute, I am relying on my memory from readings a looong time ago in high school and early college. I am just trying to suggest that a reasonable person, such as myself(don't we all see ourselves as reasonable) could disagree with the characterization and why - so we should probably just agree to disagree Trödel&#149;talk 19:30, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I apologize if my impatience showed through too strongly. This issue has dragged on for many days now, resulting in an edit war, a block, ongoing Protection, and yet another edit war with a likely block. However, you are not to blame for these problems, so I shouldn't take it out on you.

I can see how someone might disagree, particularly if they're not that up on Objectivism. However, I am up on it and I've been researching this specific issue intensively. So while I can see how someone might disagree, I would have to conclude that they'd be mistaken to do so, and probably would avoid that mistake if they'd read all the same sources that I did.

This isn't to say that I could necessarily convince you, and I'm certainly willing to agree to disagree. After all, there is nothing to be gained by beating you over the head about this.

I do feel strongly that the case for Rand's opposition to gay rights is powerful enough to justify her inclusion into the LGBT Opposition category, and I'm not willing to just let it drop. The compromise I've suggested was to include her as both pro and con, but this was rejected. I've also petitioned to have the Protection removed, promising not to reinsert the category until there was consensus, but this was likewise rejected. As for the "Objectivism and homosexuality" page, I've asked to have it Protected and been refused, and now it's the subject of an edit war by Rand's self-avowed defenders, who are trying hard to get me blocked. This is a pretty ugly mess considering it all started with someone erasing that category without a stated explanation. Alienus 22:16, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Cool - if I have time, I'll read some more of the references, in the meantime - I'll just abstain and monitor the discussion Trödel&#149;talk 12:02, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Objectivism and homosexuality

I think I'm going to stay out of this one -- my stress level is pretty high as it is. Good luck, though. Catamorphism 23:35, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

That's totally cool. Alienus 01:37, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Please do not keep undoing other people's edits without discussing them first. This is considered impolite and unproductive. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages under the three-revert rule, which states that nobody may revert an article to a previous version more than three times in 24 hours. (Note: this also means editing the page to reinsert an old edit. If the effect of your actions is to revert back, it qualifies as a revert.) Thank you.

Also, please be sure to read WP:NPOV. Some of the edits were so baised it could be considered as vandalism if repeatedly added in (as it was).Voice-of-All 08:04, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm waiting on this admin to tell me what articles they're talking about before I comment further. Alienus 13:52, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Edits to Objectivism and homosexuality(why I posted undet this section). Edits like this .Voice-of-All 18:07, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't get it. It almost looks like you don't see a problem with all the reverts by Billy, Laszlo or that anonymous IP, even though they've been avoiding Talk like the plague, yet you do see a problem with my undoing the deletion of cited, relevant text as per the discussing in Talk? That's inconsistent and has at least the appearance of bias.

I flatly reject the claim that I am anywhere close to violating the 3RR or injecting POV. In fact, when the page was first vandalized, I asked for it to be Protected, but was refused, which shows good faith on my part. In addition, my continued willingness to discuss content issues in Talk -- as contrasted with their unwillingness -- futher shows my good faith. In short, you're mistaken. Tell me, how long have you been a student of Objectivism? 18:13, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I fussed at VoA over this. You might want to see his Talk page.--TJ 23:21, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Please read WP:NPA as well. I did not take "Eddie's word for it" and everything else you said was just more speculative "cabalist" type nonsense that I see people use against admins all the time. A good change of adjectives and wording would make your edits NPOV. And everyone was reverting everywhere, not just you, otherwise I would have just blocked you. And speaking of block, nobody is going to block for no reason, so stop accusing me of that. If you are working things out on talk now: good...that is how it should be, no one ever said that was impossible.Voice-of-All 00:19, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Reversions

Alienus, I can't control what you do on wikipedia but the way you act, namely reverting me without explanation, is wrong. I'm starting to seriously wish you didn't have a "pop up" thing and would rationalize your edits (to other people) like the rest of us. Chooserr 00:20, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm hardly the only person here who's forced to revert your bad edits, so don't single me out. Instead, look to yourself for why your edits are so objectionable to so many different people. As for leaving a comment, I'll gladly do so in all cases where it isn't self-evident. For example, I recently left a note for GTBacchus on the Talk page to answer his question about my motives. Alienus 00:22, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Lambda calculus

I'm not aware of any good online references, but I've generally given up trying to find anything good online about this kind of thing. I recommend Benjamin C. Pierce's Types and Programming Languages as a lambda-calculus, but really, when you say that C# is going to implement lambda-calculus, I suspect you mean that it's going to add anonymous functions (i.e., lambda expressions). So, if I'm right, then I'd recommend Matthias Felleisen's The Little Schemer as a very friendly intro or Hal Abelson and Gerry Sussman's The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs for something more in-depth. Those two books are in Scheme, but the concepts are general. Catamorphism 04:41, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I checked here and it does look like, as you said, the C# notion of lambda calculus is mostly a notation for anonymous functions. This suggests one of the two Scheme books. Now I need to see if I can get my boss to pay for it. :-)

Thanks for the suggestions. Alienus 05:34, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Objectivism and homosexuality

Well, I didn't really reconsider-- I protected when there actually was an edit war. At any rate, I hope it gets sorted out soon. --Ryan Delaney 06:37, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I guess you had to see the war before you felt that Protection was justified. After you locked the article, LaszloWalrus showed up in Talk, so it looks like it may be working. Alienus 06:40, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Personal from TJ

Personal style

Dear Al,
Since you have never seen me at work, you have no way of realizing how excited and enthusiastic I get when chasing new ideas (or program bugs). Kindly picture an adolescent puppy, feet still 'way too big for it, bouncing up and down, just waiting for the ball to be thrown; that's me. That's why I use so many abbrs; I'm in full chase-mode. That's also what I mean when I use bangs (!): excitement! My biggest regret so far, in our increasingly successful collaboration, is that I don't get the chance to chase all the balls you throw; I find your ideas fascinating.
I use suspect as a warning of mind-reading. That's rather like finishing somebody else's sentences; some people love it, others hate it (even if I'm right). My obvious solution is to tailor my conversational style to the listener's preference.
Further, I have always been proud of my ability to "speak in tongues": 'user' to users, 'tech' to my fellow techies, 'volts' to the h/w folks, even 'admin' to managers. Keep the idea intact, but render it maximally comprehensible to the hearer, as any translator should.
Hope all this helps mutual understanding. :-)--TJ 13:34, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok. Alienus 19:01, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Reference request

In my short (~two weeks) time here in Wp, I've spent most of it reading policies, guidelines, &c, &c. If you have the time to dig up that reference to polite text-insertion, I would appreciate it. It might lead me to other things I should know.--TJ 13:34, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
My bias toward interpolated text probably comes from maintenance programming, in which the line of code has to go exactly there and nowhere else. (I did a lot of work on a diff-type program, to make life easier for everybody.)--TJ 13:34, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

First, you don't need to insert the <br> as a paragraph break when writing unindented text. Instead, skip a blank line. There's a lot more about wiki-formatting capabilities on Misplaced Pages:How_to_edit_a_page, and I tend to learn a bit more everytime I read it. For the conventions editors are expected to follow, start with Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style. Keep in mind that both of these link extensively, and you'll need to follow many of these links in order to get the full picture. You also won't be able to get it all at once.

Second, in the time I allotted myself, I wasn't able to find the specific spot where interpoloation was labeled as bad, although I've found it before. The closest I came was Misplaced Pages:Talk_page_guidelines, but it lacks both normativity and comprehensiveness. In other words, it explains the standard method (which lacks interpolation) but doesn't exhaustively list acceptable methods or exclude anything.

The explanation I read against interpolations is simply that they makes it very difficult to determine who wrote what. When dealing with things like email, the original text can always be distinguished by a leading ">" or perhaps a different font color. But on Misplaced Pages, it's all one big text file, so interpolated text leads to ambiguities that cannot be resolved using any formal grammar. I do want to give you a more direct reference for this, so I'll keep an eye out for it. For now, please trust me that interpolation on Talk pages is not a good idea. Alienus 19:00, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Editing help

I realize that HTML is deprecated for article-space, and I'd rather practice doing it right even in talk-space. Memory supplies that "<br> is to be used sparingly" (emphasis in the original). It's just that I'm having trouble with the not-quite-WYSIWYG rendering in Edit Preview.
This new paragraph illustrates the point. Without the markup above, it won't be a new paragraph. As far as I can figure, markup is needed for left-justified text, but not for colon-indented text.
My first major project is going to be re-visiting most of the Help pages, and add ing info and links thereto; maybe along the lines of "Editing for dummies", though I'll probably use the term "newbies" to avoid stumbling into a copyvio. So, any help you care to offer to me will not only be appreciated, but also may be spread widely. (Fair warning! :-)--TJ 13:34, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Check the section above for some helpful links. Alienus 19:00, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Civility

Regarding this edit and others: May we remind you to be civil and to not form personal attacks or edit wars through your or others' comments; doing so will only cause tension and annoyance. --InShaneee 00:16, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

• I will 'ban' him if I see he has a persistant record of incivil behavior. So far as I can tell from his last few edits, though you may disagree with his stance, he has been keeping a rational demeanor. --InShaneee 00:24, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

See, that's the problem with getting involved in the middle; you can wind up acting without knowing what's going on. If you check out Ayn Rand and Objectivism and homosexuality, you'll see that he launched edit wars on both of these, resulting in both being Protected. We finally got the first one unprotected, and I made the change suggested by the admin who did it. In response, LazsloWalrus immediately edit-warred to remove it. Given this context, I think my comments had far more civility than he deserved. He has repeatedly launched edit wars and acted in bad faith. If he continues his edit war on Ayn Rand, I think a LONG ban is more than justified. In contrast, warning me for warning him seems pointless, and I flatly reject the idea that I am not being sufficiently civil towards this repeat-offender vandal and edit-warrior. Alienus 00:27, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

• His behavior, past or present, is not relevant. If he breaks wikipedia policy, he will be blocked for it. In the meantime, you need to remain civil to ALL users, or you will be temporarily blocked. --InShaneee 00:30, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Fine, I've just edited my comment on his Talk page to restore some modicum of civility. Alienus 00:37, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Edit warring

I'm giving both you and User:LaszloWalrus a warning that, notwithstanding the fact that I'm not banning either of you from editing Ayn Rand, I will block you both if you persist in edit warring on the article. Then you won't be able to edit Misplaced Pages at all for a bit. Please continue to argue your cases on the talk page. --Tony Sidaway 01:40, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, LaszloWalrus has a long-standing refusal to discuss anything on the Talk page when edit-warring works so well for him. He consistently acts in bad faith.

I ended the edit war by letting him "win" it for the moment, but I won't stop until he's neutralized. He is a persistant and unrepentant edit warrior, and I've just filed an incident on the noticeboard to request his ban. Feel free to weigh in on it or not. Either way, this won't end until he's gone. Alienus 01:46, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Revert of Jesus Page

Dear Alienus: I agree with your revert of the Jesus page change. Would you do me a favor and add to your edit summary an invitation to talk about it first on the talk page? Thanks! --CTSWyneken 01:50, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have left a clearer explanation. I can't change prior edit summaries, but I can certainly add a trivial edit with a new summary, and will do so now. Alienus 01:51, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Proving my point.

So, Tony Sidaways unprotects the pages, and Laszlo immediately starts edit-warring. I complain, so now I'm blocked. Again. Everytime I bring admins into these problems, I get blocked. What a joke. Why do I even bother dealing with admins if all they do is block blindly?!

In the spirit of irony, here's what I was writing on Tony's page when the block came through:

That turns out not to be the case. You see, until your recent unprotection of Objectivism and homosexuality, Laszlo had been repeatedly removing the Category:LGBT rights opposition category from there as well. Since he refuses to Talk and he continues to revert, he's going to just pick up where he left off, and you're the one who enabled him.

There is no parity here. I'm pissed, yes, but for good reason. Laszlo simply isn't being reasonable. He isn't willing to Talk, he shows no sign of compromise or open-mindedness. He comes to Misplaced Pages to shower love on Ayn Rand and Paul Laszlo, and he's willing to edit war to get his way. I'm here on Misplaced Pages because I detest zealots like him and I will not let them get their way no matter what. I am nothing like him; I am the nemesis of all zealots alike.

Funny, eh? Chinese legalism wins again. Fuck Misplaced Pages. Alienus 03:04, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment

Alienus, from a purely practical standpoint, you're going about it the wrong way. Fight zealots, good. There's a right way to do that here, and you can win, every time. There are lots of mechanisms in place here to stop zealots from screwing things up; use them, and you won't get blocked. Take it upon yourself to repeatedly revert anything, and you'll get blocked for it, eventually. That's just not how it's done. Now that you're blocked for reverting, I wish I'd pressed the point more at Talk:Safe sex earlier. If you want to know how to make Misplaced Pages work for you, just ask. -GTBacchus 03:25, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Oddly enough, I didn't get blocked just now for 3RR violation. In fact, I didn't violate the 3RR at all. Instead, I made the mistake of going to the admins to head off an edit war before it could reach 3RR proportions, and was soundly punished for my actions. What's funny is that my previous block was punishment for daring to report a 3RR violation, not for violating it myself.

In case it's not already painfully clear, Misplaced Pages is not exactly the sort of place where justice often prevails. Now, you suggest that there are better ways. Perhaps, but how exactly would you deal with a zealot like Laszlo I-Love-Rand-More-Than-The-Truth Walrus? That's not a rhetorical question; I genuinely want to know. Alienus 08:56, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm looking into it. Laszlo does seem like a tricky one. There's no reason to let him draw you into edit wars though. In his block summary, Tony Sidaway mentioned three articles: Ayn Rand, Rodeo Drive and Objectivism and homosexuality. I've just had a look at their recent histories and talk pages.

Rodeo Drive is the easiest. I've removed that silly sentence and explained it on talk. The trick with that sort of thing is to get someone else to take the sentence out the second time. You do it once. If you do it repeatedly, then when you finally find your way to WP:AN/I or somewhere, the first admin to look into the case sees two edit warriors, and throws a block at both of you. If you make a good impression, as someone who's willing to leave the article in the wrong version while going to collect more opinions, just because you'd rather err on the side of reverting less, then admins will fall over themselves to listen to you and help you. You'll be a "good guy".

On the other hand, if an admin looks into some conflict and sees you doing popup reverts in a content dispute, their first thought is going to be "WP:DICK". I'm not saying that you're a dick - I don't really know you from Adam. I'm telling you something about how a typical Misplaced Pages admin thinks. We put up with a lot of bullshit every day, and we tend to categorize people quickly based on their editing style. Maybe that's not fair, but it's true, and it's the same way lots of situations work in the world, so it's not surprising. (Interestingly, it's rather like dealing with cops - there's a right and a wrong way to do that, too.)

On to the whole objectivism versus gay rights issue... that's trickier. At Ayn Rand, you've got several people on the talk page, including some relative newcomers to the discussion, all disagreeing with you about including Rand in the LGBT rights opponents category. Unless you can convince some people to support your edit there, I'm afraid you lose that one. Personally, I want to spit just thinking about Ayn Rand, but I don't think she belongs in that category, based on all the arguments I've read on the talk page there. I don't see that any source characterizes her as an LGBT rights opponent, or that she specifically opposed LGBT rights in practice, even if it was just for lack of opportunity, because the specific rights that she obviously would have opposed weren't really being part of the public discourse at the time.

That's just my opinion, and I know very little about... anything relevant to the question. I just know what's right in front of me. If the chief opposition to inlcuding Rand in that category really does come from slavish Objectivist hero-worship, then bringing more non-Randian eyes to the article should demonstrate that the true community consensus differs from that of a small group of fanboys. A decent way to get non-Randian eyes to look at the article is to file an article WP:RFC. Meanwhile, a good strategy is to avoid statements like: "I will, of course, restore any unexplained and unjustified removals of Rand from this category." That will make newcomers to the situation see you as a vexatious editor before they get any further. Bad impression. Baiting someone else into a 3RR violation is just as bad as the violation itself, in the eyes of many an admin.

Of course, if you can't find more people to agree with you, then you just don't get your way, and there's no way around that. I can't predict what will happen if more people look at it, except that consensus, whatever it turns out to be, will reveal itself more fully.

Finally, Objectivism and homosexuality. Honestly, the reversions you guys were making there are so complicated and involve so many changes that I can't tell a thing without an hour's study, and I'm not staying awake for another hour tonight. Let me just give you a direct answer to your question, of how I would (and will) deal with someone like User:LaszloWalrus. The trick is to let him dig his own grave, if he wants to do it. Keep track of what he's doing, sure. Don't revert anything he does more than once. Get other people to look at it, and see if they agree with you. If he really is a problem editor, he'll gradually acquire a fan-club of veteran Wikipedians who watch his edits, and he won't be able to misstep without it being seen. If you fight fire with fire, though, you'll end up getting precisely the same kind of attention, and you don't want that. In particular, statements like this will get you on a lot of bad sides. Learn to avoid that kind of thinking as heresy, and you'll see your luck change for the better. -GTBacchus 11:29, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I would put it quite like that, but the basic idea is that you need widen the discussion, to make sure that more people (and not just more people who you know will agree with you--that's wrong too) look at the dispute. The classic dispute resolution mechanism here is the Request for comments. Go to the relevant RfC subpages, Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Society, law,_and_sex and Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Religion and philosophy, and on each, add something like "Dispute on Ayn Rand over whether she should be in the category Category:LGBT rights opposition" and sign it with FIVE tildes ~~~~~. This will give a link to the page that people interested in the subject matter will come to look at the discussion and add their thoughts. Meanwhile, be patient. And do be prepared to accept a situation that may not appear ideal--for instance where Ayn Rand is not in the category but Objectivism and homosexuality is. --Tony Sidaway 14:52, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Seeing that Alienus continued to edit war on Objectivism and homosexuality after the end of his three hour block, and LaszloWalrus continued to edit war on Rodeo Drive after the end of his, I've added a twenty-one hour block to both. Both editors must get the message that it isn't acceptable to use edit warring as a tool to get their way. --Tony Sidaway 15:16, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you're not seeing me continue an edit war, because that's not what's happening. Instead, you're seeing me cooperating with TJ, AED and anyone else who's willing to contribute to the article, making changes only after discussing it with others and seeking consensus. You're also seeing Laszlo and his apparent sock puppet reverting all the work, but mostly being ignored. The bottom line is that I'm being a good editor, while Laszlo is being a vandal, and the difference is as plain as day if you actually look. So far, you haven't, so the only message you're sending is that you're willing to punish the innocent along with the guilty. Is this really the message you want to send? Alienus 18:04, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Neither of you is innocent. At the end of the day, the only difference is that you are feeling a little more self-righteous about it. Meanwhile Crotalus horridus tells me that he has put an article content RfC out on this dispute. --Tony Sidaway 20:53, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I fully expected you to see it this way. Unfortunately, you're just plain wrong, and I'm righteous because I'm right. I've consistently participated in Talk instead of edit-warring, while the same cannot be said of Walrus. Your refusal to notice this difference is not my fault, and an RfC will not help matters at all. Only removing Walrus will fix things, and that's the one thing you won't do. Alienus 21:24, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Sticking to an "I'm right and he's wrong" line will get you nowhere fast, not that you seem to heed advice. -GTBacchus 22:56, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

And if it were my goal to placate people by heeding advice I disagree with just so I can "get somewhere", I'd be concerned. However, I've already stated my goals, and they center on opposing zealots and letting the truth be known. These may be lofty goals, but they're what drives me, and I won't settle for anything less.

GT, the fact is that I haven't had any opportunity to fully evaluate your advice because I've been kept blocked the whole time. It's this sort of clumsy heavy-handedness, whether by Wiki admins or real cops, that gives them both a bad rep. In the real word, we're more likely to think of cops as the bozos who give us tickets, not the heros who protect us from genuine crime. Such is the case here, where good editors have more to fear from admins than bad ones do. Hell, if I was a Kdbufflo or a Jason Gastrich, I'd be sprouting up sockpuppets, vandalizing pages and generally being a dick. Instead, I'm editing the only page on Misplaced Pages that I haven't been blocked from. Think about that. Alienus 02:48, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, it sounds like you explicitly want to get something done - you want to oppose zealots. You can disagree with the observations of those more experienced than you in how Misplaced Pages works, but I don't see that as a very effective way to serve your cause. Misplaced Pages is a funny thing, and people approach it in vastly different ways. Some people manage to get a lot done; others run into constant static. I would suggest it's due to a difference of approach.

It's true that one strategy is to become a career vandal. I guess if you think that's the best way to get things done, then you'll eventually do it. I would rather you didn't, because I think you have a lot to contribute, and Jason Gastrich doesn't actually manage to contribute anything, as a sock-vandal, except for a few minutes at a time. I realize that you got re-blocked again quickly, and didn't have much chance to experiment, and find a way of editing that will allow you to remain true to yourself without running afoul of Misplaced Pages culture, which is what's going on now. I guess I just suggest that when this block expires you look for a different approach. Experiment conservatively. Remember that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Objectivism and homosexuality is an opportunity, as I see it. Articles that attract people who really disagree with each other can become excellent articles when people just decide to work at a high level of mutual respect, despite their differences. The first step is to stop making large scale reversions, for any reason. Patience, in making small edits over time, buoyed by constant give-and-take dialogue, is incredibly powerful.

The following are recommended reading:

• Misplaced Pages:Revert only when necessary
• Misplaced Pages:Harmonious editing club
• Misplaced Pages:No angry mastodons

As for your statement that "good editors have more to fear from admins than bad ones do," I would say that hundreds and hundreds of good editors will disagree with you on that. Editors who think there's any excuse for edit warring ever aren't widely considered "good editors" around here.

Look around some more; do some more reading. Check out the talk pages of controversial articles where people have managed to find compromises. (The Harmonious editing club listed above has a hall of fame.) Consider that the dual tasks of fighting zealotry and maintaining a defiance of Misplaced Pages culture might be more than you want to take on. -GTBacchus 04:18, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

What pisses me off about all this is that we were making genuine progress on Objectivism and homosexuality. With the the Protect in place, the vandals were forced to join the rest of us in Talk and come to a consensus. Changes were made in response to criticism and those changes were genuine improvements. Then an admin came in and fucked things up.

I'm not a vandal and I'm not interested in becoming one. I've made many positive, uncontroversial contributions and I've done my share to fix real vandalism. What further pisses me off is that, just now, I saw a bit of vandalism in my Watchlist -- some Creationist zealot poisoned Fred Hoyle with an obvious falsehood -- and I can't do anything about it except bitch in here. In contrast, Laszlo's got nothing better to do with his life than erase plain facts that don't put his hero in the best possible light. Like I said above, the black hats have less to lose. Alienus 04:28, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't characterize those edits at Fred Hoyle as vandalism. The editor made extensive arguments on the talk page supporting his changes. He may be wrong, but calling it vandalism is asking for trouble. We reserve that word for blatant acts like blanking entire pages and replacing them with pictures of penises, or text like "OMG JIMBO IS GAY LOLERZ!!!1!" Utterly misguided, incorrect, bigoted edits are not considered vandalism here.

Anyway, which bit in particular are you referring to as an obvious falsehood? I see that he removed a Dawkins quote, hedged a couple of statements, and added an assertion that some biologists see that probability argument as a real problem for evolution (e.g., Michael Denton, who appears to be a bona fide biologist). I take it that last part is the obvious falsehood? I'm inclined to replace the Dawkins quote, while adapting some of the new edits into some intermediate version...

As for Objectivism and homosexuality, don't worry. It's not going anywhere. The progress you and TJ are making is still there, waiting for you to get back. -GTBacchus 04:59, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the edit made to the Hoyle article is not the sort of obvious vandalism that consists of wiping the page and replacing it with an all-caps declaration that Jesus loves even atheists. However, it is nonetheless a major injection of falsehood in the service of partisanship. Not only does the edit reveal deep ignorance of biology -- particularly in the Talk assertion that natural selection doesn't apply to abiogenesis -- but betrays origins in Creationist propaganda, as he references the Denton book.

In any case, the edit is wrong in that it's biased original research. Even if Dawkins is completely and totally wrong (and he's not), that's not an excuse to remove the quote. Rather, it would be reason to balance the quote with a reference to a refutation. Moreover, Dawkins' take on Hoyle, while unkind, is hardly some irrelevant fringe view. It would not be hard to find quotes from a wide variety of mainstream biologists that point out errors in Hoyles' claims, with varying levels of bluntness. I may well do so, once the block goes away. Not sure when that is, because by my estimate, it should have been gone a few hours ago. Alienus 05:10, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

There's a link to your block log at the top of Special:Contributions/Alienus; you can tell from there. I'll see you in the fray. -GTBacchus 05:18, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and Original Research ${\displaystyle \neq }$ Vandalism. Get super-conservative about what you're willing to call "vandalism", and you'll hit less static. -GTBacchus 05:25, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I know. I did look, but I think that I failed to adjust for UTC, which accounts for my confusion. In the meantime, I found a bad link on Gay rights in the United States and some odd language on Same-sex marriage. I'll get to them when the block goes away (using this as a reminder). For now, I'm going to do that thing where I close my eyes and make loud noises intermittently. Alienus 05:25, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

ARI

Thanks for your comments on my Talk page. The specific reference to ARI is much better.

Gay rights states that "he gay rights movement, also called the LGBT rights movement, is a social and political movement with the goal of achieving equality for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered (LGBT) persons." Therefore, is it accurate to state that a supporter of “gay rights” is someone who supports social equality for LGBTs? AED 09:11, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

That sounds like a reasonable definition, so long as we can nail down what social equality really is. I've heard a very good operational definition which says that gays will have social equality when being gay is as significant as being left-handed. Alienus 18:06, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

If a supporter of "gay rights" is someone who supports social equality for LGBTs, then an opponent of "gay rights" would be someone who does not support social equality for LGBTs. Is that accurate? AED 07:10, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Not really. Consider that Billybob Smith of Ohio does not support social equality for LGBT's, but he's told nobody of this, and he himself is a nobody. On that basis, he would not qualify as one who opposes LGBT rights. In contrast, Rand stood up in front of hundreds of people and called homosexuality immoral and disgusting, then endorsed policies incompatible with social equality for LGBT's. This qualifies her as one who opposes LGBT rights. Alienus 08:01, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

So, a supporter of "gay rights" is someone who supports social equality for LGBTs, but an opponent of "gay rights" is NOT someone who does not support social equality for LGBTs? AED 08:07, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I thought I was being clear, but I guess I wasn't. I'll try again.

The point I was trying to make is that a private citizen who is silently for or against equality for gays doesn't deserve to be listed in either category. They have to be notable and they have speak about this issue in the course of acting as public figure. If, during the course of some pillow-talk, Ayn confided to Nat that she found gays disgusting, this would reveal her true feelings but fail to constitute public speech.

Is that clearer? Alienus 16:48, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not yet discussing Rand or attempting to establish who should or should not be listed in the category. I'm attempting to first establish what is the specific definition of a "gay rights opponent". Is it not one who does not support social equality for LGBTs? AED

I'm making a good-faith effort to explain and you're too busy wiki-lawyering to care. Stop wasting my time. Alienus 17:18, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Alienus, please excuse my interrupting, but isn't your gist that there's a difference between "not supporting" something and "opposing" something? So the defintion of an LBGT opponent would not be "one who does not support LGBT rights" but rather "one who opposes LGBT rights"? Am I understanding you correctly? It seems clear to me... -GTBacchus 18:55, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Pretty much. To oppose LGBT rights, you need to actively oppose them. Staying at home and thinking negative thoughts doesn't suffice; you have to go out there and try to publicly influence people and policies so as to generally interfere with the success of the LGBT rights movement.

I don't see this as particularly unclear, and the issue that spawned this question has already been resolved by LasloWalrus' acceptance of my pro/con compromise proposal, so this is a very deceased equine that we're flagellating. Alienus 19:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I apologize if I have tried your patience. I think we share a mutual understanding of what certain terms mean: a supporter of gay rights is someone who supports social equality for LGBTs, and an opponent of gay rights is someone who opposes social equality for LGBTs. Your clarification helps me to understand your perspective better in that this appears to be a disagreement of “means” (the policies that lead to social equality for LGBTs) rather than “ends” (social equality for LGBTs). You asserted that Rand “endorsed policies incompatible with social equality for LGBT's”, therefore, that “qualifies her as one who opposes LGBT rights”. In other words, to believe that Rand opposed LGBT rights, one must first buy into the premise that she “endorsed policies incompatible with social equality for LGBTs”. Many LGBTs certainly don’t (see Outright Libertarians). The premise that the removal of anti-discrimination bans are incompatible with social equality is decidely POV, particulary since there is some ambiguity to what “social equality” means as you initially suggested. Thanks again for your patience. AED 22:08, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

As I understand it, the libertarian view is that, once the government is out of the picture, whether discrimination against gays in the private sector will continue depends entirely on the whims of the free market, and that's just fine. Some people think or hope the discrimination will stop, some people don't; either way, they're united by their willingness to accept whatever comes of this laissez faire approach and their unwillingness to legislate equal economic treatment.

Unfortunately, you're still wiki-lawyering and still getting the details conveniently wrong. As it turns out, the gay rights movement is not defined solely in terms of the desired outcome, but also the means by which it is to be achieved. If it was just a matter of outcome, they'd be armchair dreamers, not a social movement fueled by activists urgently seeking to have their list of demands fulfilled. The mainstream of the gay rights movement is very much liberal, not libertarian or conservative, and is therefore unafraid of getting the governent involved in ensuring that desired outcome. It is this gay rights movement that defines the details of what constitutes gay rights, so any opposition to the movement constitutes an opposition to gay rights. Alienus 22:25, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily. As the Gay rights article suggests, the gay rights movement is a collection of loosely, aligned groups with a wide-range of opinons. The crux of the gay rights movement, that LGBTs deserve the same rights as everyone else, is perhaps the only common demoninator. The Outright Libertarians, albeit a minority part of the gay rights movement, are a prime example of how people can hope to achieve the same end but disagree on the means to achieve it. Anyway, I appreciate your point of view and thanks for the discussion. AED 06:36, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Objectivism Wikiproject?

Hi Alienus, following the recent discussion on the Chris Matthew Sciabarra talk page, I was wondering if anyone has thought of starting an organised Wikiproject to deal with the Objectivism-related articles on Misplaced Pages? If not, would you be interested in participating in such an endeavour were one to be started up? (Given the situation with some of the relevant pages it may of course prove to be more trouble than its worth!) Matthew Humphreys 10:55, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not much for starting, but I'll help out. Alienus 15:41, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Cool. I've put up a proposal here, please take a look and add your name to express interest. It seems there need to be at least 5 - 10 interested users before the project can go ahead. Thanks. --Matthew Humphreys 16:26, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Stunned

Hello. I was amazed to see your edit summary here stating that "but the content looks neutral and cited". Please see my comments at Talk:Medical analysis of circumcision#POV. Jakew 10:24, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

For the record, this was responded to on the Talk page, and would have been even without this message. Alienus 21:40, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Abuse of "god mode" scripts

Please note that reverting using popups scripts, also known as "god mode", should be used for reverting vandalism only. Please do not use these scripts to revert edits in articles you are involved with. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:31, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

The problem is unexplained reverts, not reverts using a macro. This revert came in the context of prior explanation of why these changes were undesirable, and were immediately followed with specific explanation. In short, I reject your warning as inapplicable. Now go back to the article and explain why your whitewashing proposal should be accepted. Alienus 21:40, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I have placed a request for clarification at the Administrators' noticeboard, regarding the use of god mode scripts. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:46, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Alienus, hi. I saw Jossi's note at the noticeboard, and thought I'd drop off a link to Misplaced Pages:Etiquette, where such issues are addressed in some detail. It is considered a discourtesy to use any process that auto-generates edit summaries when reverting non-vandalistic edits, even if they're explained on the talk page as well. A simple note like, "rv - see talk" is already much better than "Revert to revision dated 15:44, 12 March 2006 by RexNL, oldid 43480651 using popups". Jossi, I think we can assume that Alienus was unaware of this particular point of Misplaced Pages culture.

Happy editing, to both of you. -GTBacchus 22:46, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I use the automatic method for any revert whose reason is completely obvious. Most often, it's when dealing with blatant vandalism. In this case, he jumped the gun to add text right in the middle of a discussion about why he shouldn't add it. I also followed up in Talk immediately afterwards. Alienus 22:57, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's considered discourteous, whatever your reason is. Now you know. -GTBacchus 22:59, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I would say that, in this particular context, it was at most a minor discourtesy. But, yes, I acknowledge that you have conveyed the official message. Alienus 23:06, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

For the record, I did not considered it to be minor. I fight vandalism of Misplaced Pages 30% of my Wikitime( see my block log), and to find my edit reverted as if I was a mere vandal, was very insulting to me. An apologize would be nice. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:55, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

As per GTBacchus, I see this as a mistake based on lack of knowledge of Wikieetiquette. Apology not needed, I don't want to disrupt Misplaced Pages just to make a point (WP:POINT. Let's get back to editing, shall we? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 02:36, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

For the record, I do consider it minor at worst. I fight vandalism, too; go check my log. And I also fight the more subtle but just as destructive attempts of extremists to pollute articles with excess POV. Therefore, you don't earn an apology in this matter. Alienus 02:36, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Now you acusse me to be an extremist that pollutes with excess POV? When I have actually declared that I am Jewish and I do not care about Mother Theresa one bit? I would suggest you take a serious look at your too obvious inability to assume good faith from a fellow editor, that came to the aritcle by pure chance, and observed several inconsistencies with the content policies of Misplaced Pages. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 02:53, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't care if you're Jewish, Catholic or Hindu. I don't care if your goal was to perfect Misplaced Pages or destroy it. I am not a mind-reader and I don't pretend to be one. All I need to know in order to act is what you do, not what you think. I acted based on what you did, and I have no regrets, hence nothing to apologize for. Alienus 03:02, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

What about the statement you proudly display at the top of this page? Is it just for decoration, then? Anyway, don't care to answer, you actions say it all. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:09, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

You didn't clearly identify which statement you meant, and I refuse to play guessing games. I am proud of my actions and will continue them. Alienus 03:13, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Portal philosophy

Hehe, you were supposed to click the red link and copy and paste the intro from the selected article into it. I'll do it now, but just a heads up for next time :) -- infinity0 22:12, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Already done. Alienus 22:13, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Response to your edit on Polygamy page

You removed a comment I submitted. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Polygamy&diff=43556104&oldid=43555488

You stated "OR. Cite as least one "proponent". Also, it happens to be a pretty weak argument."

1. "proponent" = Cultural anthropology. From a book printed about 8 years ago, and have not been able to find. If you speak with a cultural anthropologist, they will validate--so i did not cite a "source" on this. Can you help me find one ?

2. 'weak argument.' can you quantify this, or provide some measure by which everyone can classify weak? Cite at least one source. Along with several Muslims in the community, they believe double-standards are a major flaw in our legal system. Please refer to current issue of the Danish comic strip. Serial monogamy is not a weak argument then? I find it on equal grounds, along side the cultural anthropology sources.

67.169.244.224 07:49, 13 March 2006 (UTC) Eran, I have a degree in sociology, with emphasis in religion and anthropology, therefore I can also claim to be an expert source. Perhaps I should quote myself, or do I need to publish a "scholarly paper" on the topic first?

The promise of a citation is not itself a citation. Come up with an ISBN or URL or something, and then we'll talk.

As for the fact that it's a weak argument, that was my attempt at a friendly hint. When people put up weak arguments, they tend to get torn apart. If you don't believe me, then find a citation, revert my deletion, then see for yourself.

Oh, and please don't bother telling me about your degrees. You'd be surprised by how little I care. Alienus 07:59, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Where is the source for the existing "Where is the source for the current text "The modern trend towards frequent divorce and remarriage is sometimes referred to by conservative Christians as 'serial polygamy'."

The reason there's no source listed for the sentence you brought up is that nobody thought it needed citing. If they had, it would have been very easy to find a citation for it. Essentially, nobody doubted its accuracy, so it remained unquestioned. Are you legitimately questioning it or are you just sore that your uncited insertion is being rejected?

Alienus 08:25, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I am qustioning why you remove my edits to the article when they are comparable to others in terms of legitimacy. peerhaps it would be more effective to add a "citation needed" instead of removing them immediately.

Obviously I have it in for you, even though I don't have a clue of who you are. Or, just maybe, the "" template is more appropriate for existing text that, if not cited promptly, will be deleted. This two-phase approach is less disruptive.

In contrast, immediately reverting new insertions is often less disruptive that allowing questionable new text to remain for a little bit before killing it.

The bottom line is that I'm making an entirely reasonable request for citations. The proper response isn't to revert my deletion and question my motives. The proper response is to either find a citation or give up. Alienus 13:54, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

WP:CIVIL

Tell me this is uncivil, Alienus:

I respect you. I think you have a lot to contribute to Misplaced Pages. You strike me as an intelligent and passionate person. I believe that you can be an excellent contributor here. I think that you are better than some comments I've seen you make, including what I was replying to at Talk:Abortion. You're not giving yourself enough respect, or doing yourself justice when you edit like a child. I believe that you have the character to rise above pettiness, impatience, and disrespect and to be a shining example for all of us. I challenge you to do just that. Call me out for being uncivil now. I stand by my utter rejection of your comment at Talk:Abortion. That was baby-talk, and I believe that you're a man. Prove it.

If you act like a child, I will call you out. That's not uncivil; it's respect. -GTBacchus 06:20, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Civility is about form, not content. If I think you're a complete and total asshole and I say so, that's uncivil. If I think the exact same thing but restrict my response to a polite expression of disagreement about your specific point, that's civil. Likewise, whatever the motivations for your inspirational insults, they remain uncivil. As you may have noticed, the problem with being uncivil is that people tend to notice this undesirable form and not even bother to evaluate the content.

As for me, I don't claim to have infinite patience, and I certainly don't promise to give respect those who have not earned it. The fact is that I patiently, carefully and properly made two attempts at fixing a broken definition, and the response I received has used up all of my patience. The permanent blocking of Haliburton Shill's account consumed the last bit I had left.

You need to accept this and realize that patience cannot be mandated, much less created at will. I'm done with Abortion for now. If I find some patience to try again, you'll see me there. Otherwise, you won't. Alienus 17:07, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Suits me fine. I look forward to your future contributions. If I don't happen to see you whining unproductively on talk pages that are on my watchlist, then I won't have that to complain about. Running out of patience is one thing - venting about it on an article talk page and declaring the work going on there to be "pointless" is another. I will continue to call out that sort of behavior when I see it from anyone. -GTBacchus 18:45, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

User notice: temporary 3RR block on Medical analysis of circumcision

You have been temporarily blocked for violation of the three-revert rule. Please feel free to return after the block expires, but also please make an effort to discuss your changes further in the future. The duration of the block is 48 hours (repeat offences; blatant well-over-3 reverts) William M. Connolley 19:18, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

In fact, there is no 3RR violation here. You've been led to make a mistake.

If you take a more careful look, you'll find that there are two separate sections of text, one on infections, the other on bleeding. I gave up on the infection text so as to avoid 3RR, even though I still haven't gotten a clear and honest reason for its repeated reversion.

In the meantime, one of my changed included not only the restoration of the removed text, but the addition of unrelated text on bleeding. Unfortunately, Jay kept using blanket reverts without bothering to do diff's, so he was wiping out both the disputed insert and this new, undisputed insert. Since no reason has ever been stated for the removal of the text on bleeding, I reverted that, twice.

My reversions for either block of text do not exceed the limit, and as they're independent, it doesn't make sense to combine the two. As a result, it's not "well-over-3 reverts", it's two unrelated blocks of text that are each reverted fewer times than the limit.

Once the block is gone, I'm going to revisit the issue of why non-vandal text was removed repeatedly and without explanation, as well as why the original text was reverted despite the fact that it met all criteria for inclusion. This will include following up on why Jay has been allowed to violate Misplaced Pages rules while I've been punished despite not violating them. I bet you can guess what will come of this. Alienus 19:57, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I think you are miscounting. You clearly reverted the removal of the paragraph beginning "There is a particular risk for..." four times (specific diffs are on WP:AN/3RR.) Regards, Nandesuka 21:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I checked before blocking. You broke 3RR William M. Connolley 22:11, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

You can be blocked for making different reverts: someone adds a sentence to the third paragraph and you delete it; someone else changes a word in the fifth paragraph and you change it back; someone moves a paragraph to a different place within the article, and you move it back; and then, finally, someone deletes a sentence in the last paragraph, and you put it back in — in such a case, you have made four reverts, since it's the act of reverting that counts. Obviously reverting of vandalism wouldn't count, though some people incorrectly refer to a POV edits as vandalism when they're reverting. Cheers. AnnH ♫ 23:56, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Are you saying I made four reverts or "well-over-3 reverts"? Alienus 06:29, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not saying anything about the number of reverts that you made, since I haven't counted them. I see no reason not to trust William M. Connolley. The reason for my comment was that you seemed to be disputing the block on the grounds that the reverts were different ones, so I was explaining that if they are made to the same article within the same twenty-four-hour period, they still count. My use of the word "you" was as an alternative to the more formal word "one". I was referring to Wikipedians in general, who can be blocked if they revert an article four times, regardless of whether or not they are reverting the same material. I was not referring to User:Alienus. However, I do know that you've violated the rule in the past, at Criticism of Christianity, and that you got quite angry with me for simply telling you, even though I had said that I wasn't going to report you. AnnH ♫ 19:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to hear you are having problems with William M. Connolley - one of the worst examples of an admin who misuses his powers to push his POV. Robsteadman 17:41, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't see this as a problem with William, but a problem with the admin system. William is being successfully gamed by Jakew, Jayjg and Nandesuka, a trio of wheel-warriors who obstructed any attempt at all include some mention CA-MRSA in the context of circumcision, no matter how neutral and cited. They dicked me around for days with an endlessly escalating series of requirements, all the while reverting my attempts 8 times! There was only one instance where my text wasn't reverted outright, and even then, it got tagged for citation then reverted anyhow after I provided citation. At no point did any of them even try to correct the supposed flaws in my text or to honor their own promises about what it would take to get the text kept. This is bad faith.

Anyhow, according to Nandesuka and William, a went "well over" the 3RR. By another admin's count, I had 4 reverts. By my count, I had 1, then 2, then 2, all of different things. Someone here can't do the math. There are some other peculiarities I'll get around to following up on, but for right now, I just want to know whether the basis for my extended ban -- going "well over" the limit -- is something that anyone is still claiming to be true. If it's not, then why am I still banned? If it is, then why can't they agree on how many reverts I did? This doesn't add up and I'm not going to drop this issue until a few admins have lost their badges. Alienus 17:55, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Along with William M. Connolley I wouldn't trust Jayjg who blocked me for use of sockpuppets when I hadn't been using them - they are all rather conveniently allied to the "jesus" fanatics and, imho, shouldn't be admin at all. They abuse their position and are waging war against genuine editors who want to make WP into a factual and verifiable NPOV encyclopedia. if you wish to pursue a comploaint against connelly and Jayjg I would be more than happy to support you - both are a menace to genuine editing. Robsteadman 19:17, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

"By another admin's count, I had 4 reverts." If you're referring to my comments, I wasn't commenting on how many reverts you had made. I was pointing out that "you can be blocked" (i.e. "one can be blocked") for reverting four times, even if it's not a revert of the same material. AnnH ♫ 19:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)