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Better source

"Planned Parenthood conducted a frame-by-frame analysis of the recordings, and said they found instances of 'editing that dramatically alter the meaning of the recorded conversations.'" Can we find a better source for this? Huffington Post is not exactly an RS on issues such as this. NYyankees51 (talk) 12:33, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

What's the basis for assuming the Huffington Post is not a reliable source? They are a mainstream news organization that has won numerous awards according to the wikipedia article.Mattnad (talk) 13:13, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps the Misplaced Pages article should be improved, then. They are not mainstream and lean far to the left, as recognized by mainstream sources. NYyankees51 (talk) 13:24, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't rely on either Live Action OR Huffington Post (depending on the journalist) without corroborating sources. Start with Media Matters here and check their links. Flatterworld (talk) 13:55, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Part of the problem here is that the information is spread around this article, Live Action, and Lila Rose. imo the Lila Rose article should be merged into the Live Action article, as that's all she's notable for. But as it is, I added a 'See also' link to this article. Flatterworld (talk) 14:36, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Well I personally wouldn't equate an award-winning, widely quoted news site that was just sold to AOL for $315M, with millions of daily readers etc.... with LiveAction - a tiny group group singularly dedicated to doing undercover stings against abortion providers. When asked why he thinks it's not a reliable source NYYankees offers his personal opinion that the Huffington Post is too far left from the "mainstream". If political leaning were an issue, we'd be allowed to disqualify many sources, including Fox News - but we don't.Mattnad (talk) 16:17, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

What part of depending on the journalist did you not understand? There are good HuffPo stories, and there are HuffPo stories which are just a rework of something someone else did - and not always accurately. The best thing is to find the original piece. (btw - I wouldn't use a selling price as an endorsement of reliability, nor would I use popularity or 'widely quoted'. I do NOT agree they're far left. I do find them mainstream, although I'd tempted to say 'fluffstream'. Which these days seems to be a synonym. We can do better.) The point is, these 'videos' have been set-ups and fakes. The worst I think was when the over-the-top 'pimp' and 'prostitute' were shown, but it turned out they went to the clinic dressed in ordinary clothes with the girl claiming to be a victim in fear for her life and the guy claiming to be a law student trying to help her against her pimp. If that's not willful and with-malice-aforethought fraudulent 'news', I don't know what is. Who else would have been able to get out of that? Flatterworld (talk) 22:47, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Hang on... what? Even MediaMatters hasn't made a claim as wild as the last few sentences of your post. Perhaps you're confusing this with the ACORN sting, which has been discredited in a way similar to your description. This sting, however, was done by a different organization. The premise (posing as a sex trafficker to expose an allegedly corrupt organization) was similar, but the methods were not. This page is not the place to discuss the ethics of undercover journalism techniques that have been used by countless media companies over the years.

What constitutes a reliable source really depends on the context. In some cases, PP's own website could be considered a reliable source. In other cases, it would not be. I personally have no issue with the Huffington Post article used as a source. It is obviously biased towards the subject of this article and in general is quite a bit left of centre. However, it does provide documentation for the statement in the article (that PP claimed to do an analysis and found evidence of deceptive editing). Strangely enough, neither party has publicly released actual examples of doctoring. I wonder why? 198.169.14.73 (talk) 14:33, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

"We have released unedited videos" isn't a statement about the organization itself in the spirit of WP:SPS (which is what you're invoking, no?), though; it implies "this is what Planned Parenthood did," which is a statement about a third party and disallowed under that guideline. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:06, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

It's widespread knowledge that at Misplaced Pages, "reliable sources" are those that come from left wing outlets, regardless of accuracy, and any non-left wing sources and outlets are basically automatically considered unreliable sources, regardless of accuracy. You can move throughout this website and on any topic involving anything political, the pattern is the same. Anything that debunks, questions or criticizes what the left believes, or a liberal political figure's policies, will not be included in any article on the grounds of not being a "reliable source," despite how accurate it is, and anything promoting left wing views will be included regardless of the source. Independent reporting and sting operations are fine when they come from left wing outlets like MSNBC, but if the sting is not from a left wing outlet, it's considered slander, blah, blah, blah. "Media Matters" and "Huff Post" are considered reliable sources, because they say precisely want left wingers want to read. Thus, Huff Post also wins awards from left wing organizations, much like only leftists winning Nobel prizes. The fix is in and has been for a long, long time. Even to the point that in this backroom comment forum, comments like this are pulled. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.3.247.187 (talk) 07:35, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

PP locations

There are not Planned Parenthoods in every state, as stated in the Services and Facilities section. For instance, there are no Planned Parenthoods in North Dakota. I am not sure how to check what other (if any) states do not have Planned Parenthoods, and am I unsure how to rephrase the statement or I would have fixed it myself. I just wanted to report the inaccuracy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newlyunlabeled (talk • contribs) 17:37, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

There seems to be one in Fargo, according to Google Maps; did it close? (The statement is sourced to a book from 2005, so it could well be out of date, but we'd need a more recent source that contradicts it, or evidence that at least one state has no PP clinics, in order to remove the statement.) Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:56, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I work for a PP and we were told we're not in every state, so I did a quick search on PPFA website and it said 0 results for North Dakota. Maybe it did close? I'm uncertain. The way the search works on the PPFA website is through either entering a zip or a drop down menu listing all 50 states + DC so it's a bit of a cumbersome way to search.Newlyunlabeled (talk) 18:06, 8 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned\\\\\ comment added by Newlyunlabeled (talk • contribs) 18:04, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I did the same search and the ND one didn't turn up. I looked for a news story about it closing and got nothing. Anyone feel like calling the phone number listed on Google Maps? Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:11, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

So upon further investigation, the clinic in Fargo might be the same technically speaking as the clinic in Moorhead. In that region, they often refer to the area as Fargo/Moorhead. They are right across state lines from each other. Of course they do list different addresses. I will call and see what I can find out. Newlyunlabeled (talk) 18:22, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

So maybe the technically correct phrase would be "in or near every state"?Mattnad (talk) 18:26, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I called the number listed for Fargo and they confirmed that there are no clinics in North Dakota but they have some sort of administrative or shipping facility on the Fargo side of Fargo/Moorhead Newlyunlabeled (talk) 18:39, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

OK, then let's remove that statement, or rephrase to "most states" or something. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:38, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

How about "throughout the country"? Some people have to drive further than others, which is unfortunate, but it's a big country. PhGustaf (talk) 19:43, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Non-profit

It should be made clear in the article that Planned Parenthood is a non-profit organization. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.68.88.54 (talk) 13:41, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

It's in the categories, but you're right that it could also be mentioned in the text. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:17, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Eugenics in the United States

I've removed a link to the above article from the "see also" section because, although there is a connection, it's rather tenuous. Nothing more, nowadays, than a political talking point. --TS 01:44, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Yup. We get people in here trying to push the connection every couple of months, but this isn't Conservapedia and there's no actual reason to include it. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:27, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

See also section . Inclution of Eugenics in the United States

See historic section at Planned Parenthood. PP history is an undeniable and relevant part of the eugenics movement at the United States, as well as the International Planned Parenthood Federation. Planned Parenthood is mentioned by the sources dealing with eugenics movement Birth control is recognized by the sources as being strong related to eugenic movement and goals. Planned Parenthood was founded by the eugenics moevement at U.S., Maragaret Sanger -an eugenic movement leader - is one of the well known founders of Planned Parenthood. --ClaudioSantos¿? 17:34, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

First of all, I think you should probably filter some of those sources through Misplaced Pages's guidelines on appropriate sourcing, since some of them seem to fail by a large margin. More to the point, I don't think that Category:Eugenics is appropriate here. The relevant policy is WP:CAT, which clearly states: Categorizations appear on pages without annotations or referencing to justify or explain their addition; editors should be conscious of the need to maintain a neutral point of view when creating categories or adding them to articles. Categorizations should generally be uncontroversial... I think it's pretty clear that the nature and relevance of the relationship between Planned Parenthood and the early 20th-century eugenics movement is controversial. We can certainly explore it (with appropriate sources) in the article, but categorization seems inappropriate. MastCell  18:53, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I apologize; I must have been thinking of an earlier dispute, but on looking again I see that the issue here is about a "See also" link to Eugenics in the United States rather than Category:Eugenics. My apologies for that oversight on my part. To address the actual issue, I think many of the same principles apply. This is (at best) a complex, controversial, and nuanced issue. I think it could potentially be discussed in the article (again, and again, with appropriate sourcing), but simply sticking a "See also" link strips the issue of its context and seems more intended to make a political point than to inform a neutral reader. I still oppose the "See also" link, as do at least two other editors who have commented here, so I'd appreciate it if ClaudioSantos (talk · contribs) would actually stop and discuss the disputed content rather than repeatedly reinserting it (see WP:BRD). MastCell  18:58, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I disagree with the inclusion of the see also link to eugenics as well. Without context, all it serves to do is try to maintain a link between the two in some tenuous attempt at POV. Falcon8765 19:42, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Until now, I am the only one providing references to the question. Your point of view about the connection is not an appropiate answer. The see-also link is neither stating nor claiming nothing controversial, complex or nuanced. It simply addresses to a related issue, useful for any one interested in the parental hood and birth control history. For example, Peter C. Engelman at A History of the Birth Control Movement in America explicity remarks that connection between birth control and eugenics. An interwiki link to the eugenics history in U.S. is the minimum that should be included. Trying to imply a strong or a tenous connection, from an interwiki is just overdone and excessive. What seems POV it the attempt to delete a relevant link claiming a WP:OR "tenuous connection". If that connections is so "tenous" should the reader decide. At any rate the sources state a relevant and historic connection. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 19:51, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

If reliable sources truly state a relevant and historic connection, then we should consider whether it should be described in the article body, with appropriate citations and a balanced exploration of the issue. If our goal is to actually inform the reader, then don't you think that's a preferable approach? MastCell  20:05, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and meanwhile it is appropiate to include the interwiki link. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 20:11, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't agree, because "See also" links aren't a good way to handle complex, controversial, or nuanced topics. MastCell  21:11, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Connecting Planned Parenthood with Eugenics is tenuous as best, and POV at worst. This has been discussed before. Sanger, the founder, had some philosophies which some have attached to Eugenics (although it was consistent with the white establishment view at the time). I've used the analogy before, but just because the U.S. was founded some men who at the time were slaver owners does not mean we attached a whole range of slavery-oriented categories (see ). Instead, it's addressed in the article where it's relevant. So in the article, the issue of slavery is brought up in the context of major historical event - the civil war. There is no parallel for Planned Parenthood in the past. It's only today that opponents of Planned Parenthood today bring up Sanger's philosophies and try to connect her views with the organization.Mattnad (talk) 21:29, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I support inclusion, the founders of PP were strong eugenicists. At the very least it should be in the see also. NYyankees51 (talk) 21:57, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Mattnad, and others must provide reliable sources instead of their opinions. I have provided sources that demonstrate there is a connection: sources dealing with the history of birth control deals also with eugenics, and sources dealing with eugenics history deals with PP. Mastercell, who says it is controversial? you?. Mattnad, who says it is tenous related? you? -- ClaudioSantos¿? 22:13, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Putting aside for a moment the fact that some of your sources are just terrible, "A book about eugenics mentions Planned Parenthood" tells us absolutely nothing about how the topics are related, and "A book about eugenics doesn't mention Planned Parenthood at all, but it mentions birth control, and PP provides birth control" is a piece of synthesis. Both are really tenuous bases on which to argue for the inclusion of this POV-motivated "see also." The burden of inclusion is on you: make an effort to read the sources you've cited, and make an argument. Specifically, please explain why you want it to be a contextless "see also" that leads readers to believe that PP has anything to do with eugenics nowadays, instead of linking it in-text in the early history section. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:29, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Eugenics was the original reason d'eta for PP, I support inclusion. - Haymaker (talk) 22:42, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

If reliable sources do in fact suggest that eugenics was the "original reason d'eta" for Planned Parenthood, then surely you should supply those sources and we should use them to write a neutral, well-sourced addition to the article. MastCell  22:46, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

See Roscelese: to be honest and in good faith, your arguments were nothing else than chatter. I can not summarize all what those sources (for example A History of the Birth Control Movement in America Escrito by Peter C. Engelman) have written about the historic connections between birth control and eugenics, due it is covered in a lot of paragraphs and chapters and deals with more than one argument. Tthese sources mention common origins, common leaders and supporters, common financial supporters, common grounds, similarities, but also they mention differences of course. But at any rate the sources mention a connection which is analyzed in a lot of chaptters and paragraphs. Indeed there is also another book (Margaret Sanger's eugenic legacy: the control of female fertility, by Angela Franks) entirely dedicated to analyze the connections between eugenics, birth control and Margaret Sanger (founder of the PP and a very prominent activist of Birth Control and also of eugenics). Therefore there is not a lack of sources that testify that there is a connection which deserved to be analyzed by reliable sources. They also mention some of the claims of the birth control supporters, trying to differentiate the birth control from the eugenics, but that is one part of the picture. Then, despite of your comment, actually I have argued here and used references. For a change, you are another of those failing to provide a source to support your claims. If nowdays PP and birth control has nothing to do with egenics is a questionable issue that you also failed to reference, but that birth control and PP were historically intertwined is something referenced. More over I can provide at least one reliable source cliaming that there is nowdays a connection between Planned Parenthood now and eugenics Frank, Angela. Margaret Sanger's eugenic legacy: the control of female fertility. P.60 and ss. But at any rate it is proverbial, as an interwiki link is not stating nothing, but it seems pretty clear that excluding this link sounds like an overreaction to shield PP and birth control of any evil connection, even its own origins and history. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 00:06, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Angela Franks is an anti-abortion activist who heads a group called Planned Parenthood Hurts Girls, so she's not exactly a reliable source for these sorts of claims. As for the rest, if you're not going to take the time out of your day to actually read and discuss the sources you're linking, why should the rest of us waste our time engaging with you? Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 00:26, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

I have mentioned briefly and roughly what the sources claim (These sources mention common origins, common leaders and supporters, common financial supporters, common grounds, similarities, but also they mention differences of course ). Have you verified?. Do not waste my time further if you are not going to verify but solely publish your chatter. For the rest, that you disgraee with the point of view of an author, is not a criteria of reliability. The cited work of Angela Frank is a book published by a reliable eidtorial and is considered an scholar work cited by other scholar works. For example her work is cited here by Claire Peta Blencowe at the peer reviewed journal Theory Culture Society or cited in a scholar essay by Cullen at the Public Historian Vol 29. No.3 p 163-175. So for scholar authors her work is reliable and deserves to be cited as a reliable reference. But who says her work is not a reliable source? You Roscelese. Stop wasting our time with your particular POV WP:OR. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 01:13, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

That Angela Frank operates an anti-Planned Parenthood organization is very much relevant. There are obvious questions of neutrality. Additionally, the paper that allegedly cites Ann Frank as a source is behind a paywall and doesn't mention it in the abstract. If you can find reliable non-fringe sources stating the link, then I have no issue with it being included in prose, not a tacked on see also section. Also need page numbers for the books in the above comment that mention it.Falcon8765 01:26, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

At least do a minimum search at google academics to verify that Frank is cited where I said. Remarking a work as fringe based on your own opinion is just WP:OR and referring to my afirmation as "alleged" borders on bad faith. An scholar work is an scholar and reliable source for WP whatever be the editorial point of view of the author. For a change the article is full of references to the PP web site and to newspaper articles. Double standars? -- ClaudioSantos¿? 01:45, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Original research applies to what is included in articles, not the reliability of sources. Also, in certain cases the subject's of articles are considered reliable enough sources about themselves, and newspaper articles are generally reliable as well, so no double standard exists. A google scholar search for Angela Frank didn't turn anything up for me, so could you provide the links instead? I called it alleged, because I have not seen the link that states so yet. Falcon8765 01:56, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

• ClaudioSantos, you seem to have been so busy complaining about me personally that you forgot to answer my question above, so I'll ask it again: Please explain why you want it to be a contextless "see also" that leads readers to believe that PP has anything to do with eugenics nowadays, instead of linking it in-text in the early history section. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:06, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Falcon: . -- ClaudioSantos¿? 03:19, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Ros, the article includes a History section, so what they used to do (and apparently still do) is very much relevant. If you want, we can do a see also in the history section. NYyankees51 (talk) 04:46, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

NYYankees51, if you want to make a credible point that PP is still engaging in race-based eugenics, don't link to liveaction.org. That is not a reliable source by several measures.Mattnad (talk) 09:59, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Article structure doesn't work like that. If you can't work it into the text without violating UNDUE, perhaps you'll have to be content with it already being linked and discussed extensively in Margaret Sanger. (If you do plan on working it into the text, I would advise beginning with real sources.) Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:55, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Claiming UNDUE for a single interwiki link is an UNDUE excessive overreaction -- ClaudioSantos¿? 13:34, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't think any of us are saying that Margaret Sanger didn't have some pro-eugenics views, which weren't uncommon or controversial at the time she held them. The question is whether or not Planned Parenthood was influenced by those viewpoints or not. Falcon8765 05:11, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

From what I can tell from the references offered by claudiosantos, the best he has found (from a RS that doesn't have a current ax to grind with PP) is that Planned Parenthood offered birth control at a time when eugenics proponents also recommended birth control as a means to an end. But that's not the same as PP promoted or practiced Eugenics. Similar logic - U.S. was founded by slave owners, ergo U.S. was created to promote slavery. Now lets put a "See also Slavery" in articles related to the United States. I'm sure we can find someone who will write that the US was, and is still a slave nation and we can use that to support whatever edits we want.Mattnad (talk) 08:43, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

No Mattnad, the sources are not solely claiming a coincidence in time, not even that PP and Birth Control was defended by people related to eugenics, but that birth control was also defended and founded on eugenics grounds certainly some defended it as a coercitive measure others do not . It was not a coincidence that some of the first birth control organizations were founded on eugenics grounds like the "Society for Birth Control and Progress of Race". The historic relation stated by the sources goes beyond the simplicity that Mattnad claims. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 13:29, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

A good online RS for some of this can be found at Margaret Sanger Papers Project with direct quotes like

The Negro Project, instigated in 1939 by Margaret Sanger, was one of the first major undertakings of the new Birth Control Federation of America (BCFA), the product of a merger between the American Birth Control League and Sanger's Birth Control Clinical Research Bureau, and one of the more controversial campaigns of the birth control movement. ... the Negro Project was, from the start, largely indifferent to the needs of the black community and constructed in terms and with perceptions that today smack of racism.

This organization is the same organization that just changed its name in 1942 to be Planned Parenthood. I tried to get things about this before but the two primary complaining people now and a now banned user prevented any mention of BCFA or the Negro Project from making it into the article. Standard whitewashing of history. Feel free to try to come up with something. This link and other links from the NYU defintitly hold up to RS standards.Marauder40 (talk) 13:40, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Nice cherry-picking there. Try this quote from the end.

The fundamental belief, underscored at every meeting, mentioned in much of the behind-the-scenes correspondence, and evident in all the printed material put out by the Division of Negro Service, was that uncontrolled fertility presented the greatest burden to the poor, and Southern blacks were among the poorest Americans. In fact, the Negro Project did not differ very much from the earlier birth control campaigns in the rural South designed to test simpler methods on poor, uneducated and mostly white agricultural communities.

--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:38, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Sarek, first off if you read the entire article you will see sections where they say that ALL the early birth control campaigns had similar racist motives. So calling the Negro Project similar to other methods doesn't undo the paragraph earlier in the same article. The fact is that Margaret Sanger felt that people should "Apply a stern and rigid policy of sterilization and segregation to that grade of population whose progeny is already tainted or whose inheritance is such that objectionable traits may be transmitted to offspring" and these organizations were founded to aid in that. Hiding those facts is whitewashing the history of this organization. It doesn't matter whether they do this now or not, if you are going to have a history section those things need to be included. The Negro project was "first major undertakings of the new Birth Control Federation of America (BCFA)" and yet it isn't even mentioned in the article that talks about its founding. Any mention of the BCFA which is the immediate predecessor of Planned Parenthood is removed from the article, whether the Negro Project is mentioned or not.Marauder40 (talk) 17:06, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

This section seems to be packed with a lot of unconvincing claims that give the appearance of WP:FRINGE. Can anyone take a stab at very concisely and precisely stating the claim being put forth here regarding an alleged "connection" between PP and eugenics? That would at least help people understand what is being argued. Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 16:35, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

• Do any of the users insisting we include this actually have any intention of addressing my question? "Please explain why you want it to be a contextless 'see also' that leads readers to believe that PP has anything to do with eugenics nowadays, instead of linking it in-text in the early history section." This is the third time I've asked. If your goal is really to provide more information about PP's early history, you should have no problem linking it in the text of the early history section. If your goal is to push a POV by suggesting that PP is involved in eugenics, get out and stop wasting our time and your own. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:54, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

I personally am waiting for Claudios to respond since they were the one that re-opened the bag of worms, maybe now that there are more people monitoring this and one of which not being BW things may work out better. I however see his point. PP WAS part of Eugenics in its early history, as such should be linked to other articles on the same topics. The same things are done when other organizations have a "tainted" past why shouldn't this one. Even the Margaret Sanger project addresses portions of the "tainted" past yet WP in relationship to PP and ABCL doesn't.Marauder40 (talk) 17:13, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

I do agree with Marauder. Roscelese you are assuming that a simply link implies that PP is involved in eugenics. Thus you are attempting to prevent that other readers could assume or just inquire into that connection. Therefore you are the one attempting to lead the user to your POV, instead of let them read and investigate. I have answered your question before you asked, since the first moment: PP history and eugenics history are related and intertwined enough to at least be linked in the see-also for any one interested, as Eugenics in the United States deals also about birth control and Margaret Sanger's history. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 17:56, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

A "see also" does imply a link between Planned Parenthood and eugenics. To argue otherwise is sort of insulting to our intelligences. Moreover, it is clearly your intent to imply such a link, based on your comments here, but you seem unwilling to actually put in the effort to find reliable, scholarly sources that meet this site's criteria. That's a bit frustrating, and it leads one to wonder whether your motivation is to improve the quality and informativeness of the article or simply to make a political point. MastCell  18:06, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

MastCell, you must be joking. I have provided about 5 references, ALL of them scholar works. Actually I have referenced even some particular claims providing links to the exact pages of those scholar works. Even another user (Marauder40) also published a quote taken from an scholarship work supporting the connection. For a change, actually you have not provided any reference. Let frustrate yourself about yourself but stop arguing false statements about my doings. Indeed there is a conenection between PP and eugenics, as there is an historical link between PP, birth control and eugenics, and it is well referenced. And this is the article about Planned Parenthood, including its history and historical contexts and grounds. Or am I wrong and this is a sort of an advertisement on what some current supporters of Planned Parenthood and Birth control want to believe or to publish about PP, even by whitewashing its history? -- ClaudioSantos¿? 18:55, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

The reason I have not supplied any references is that I'm not seeking to add any content at present. If you don't understand this distinction, please re-read the relevant policy. When I intend to add material, I try to bring appropriate sources with me. I'm not sure whether you're continuing to argue for a "see also"; if so, I don't think you've addressed the fundamental objection, which is that it's an inappropriately context-free way of handling a complex subject. MastCell  20:31, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

But OK. Here's a source which illustrates the nuances of the issue. In The Means of Reproduction, Michelle Goldberg writes that Sanger used "dubious language that reeks of racism to modern ears," and that those words continue to provide "rich fodder to the contemporary antiabortion movement eager to tar family planning as a tool of genocide." Not that I think that's what's going on here, but surely the modern context in which this connection is cited is relevant to a full understanding of the topic.

And since you approvingly cite Marauder40's use of the NYU Sanger Papers Project, it's perhaps worth quoting directly from that project:

While the Margaret Sanger Project respects the right of any person to voice opinions on reproductive choice, we believe it is wrong and purposely misleading to misquote Sanger’s statements and writings or misrepresent her intent by taking short passages out of the context of its source and out of historical context. A number of groups opposed to reproductive choice have posted quotations attributed to Sanger which are then copied and passed on by others and used in letters to the editor, editorials, web blogs, even published books and now Congressional hearings. ()

I would rather we don't add Misplaced Pages to the end of that list. MastCell  20:44, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

I think it's pretty clear that the consensus is to leave the article as is with regards to the eugenics link. Unless RELIABLE sources are provided, I don't think this will change. Falcon8765 21:29, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Falcon: Four users have explicity supported the see'also link inclution, so your assumptions of a consensus to exclude the link is obviously false. The same about your other statement because, we have provided also reliable sources that support a connection between birth control, PP and eugenics. Your comment is bordering the disruption but I have to assume good faith.

MastCell, your quote at most goes on Sanger being missquoted, but does not state that there were not any historical connection between eugenics, birth control and planned parenthood. For the rest, here we are not trying to deal with a complex subject using a see-also. Here there were provided reliable sources that justify a see-also link as being related subjects, with historical connections. Indeed connections that are analyzed by the sources, be it to point not only identities but also differences, and also to point out misquotations. PP history and eugenics history are related and intertwined enough, up to at least be linked in the see-also for any one interested in investigate deeper into the topic. The own Eugenics in the United States deals explicity also about birth control and Margaret Sanger's history. Obviously they are related subjects. Your demand for a current strong conection between eugenics and PP, or a connection in your terms, is not an appropiate demand not even supported by the respective WP policy:

A see'also link is allowed even if it was a "peripherally related subject", and it is not. :-- ClaudioSantos¿? 22:02, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Your thinly veiled accusations that I am being disruptive are getting old. Regardless, I recommend that we get an outside opinion because it is clear that those involved in this discussion aren't likely to come to an agreement. If someone could put up a WP:RFC or analyze the sources that Claudio wants to be used on WP:RSN, I'd appreciate it. Falcon8765 22:26, 3 August 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by ] (] • ])

So ClaudioSantos would this mean you plan to add a "See also: Terrorism" to the Catholicism article since some anti-abortion acts violence and bombings were committed by Catholics? There's a peripheral link, as you have pointed out. Likewise, you should add a "See also: Genocide" in all articles related to united states history since some people have written that the US territory included efforts to wipe out Native Tribes. I for one think we should have reliable sources that focus on Planned Parenthood rather than Sanger if you want to make this point. But you have not. You seem to be be more interested in making this much bigger than any reputable source would suggest.22:30, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. Should we go to Catholic Church and add "See also: Collaboration with the Nazis"? Or "See also: Antisemitism"? After all, a number of reliable sources (much stronger than those Claudio cites) draw these connections. Presumably, though, these topics are best dealt with in a proportionate and nuanced fashion, rather than with "see alsos". MastCell  22:40, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

My proposal was enough clear, concrete and precise. If you have any complaint about WP logics is not me the one who process it. But certainly I have not pointed out a peripheral connection but a clear and referenced historical connection between PP, birth control and eugenics. They are related subjects. Against your claims demmanding to establish a "non tenuous" connection -meant in your particular terms- in order to simply add a see-also link, I explicity said that: according to WP policies, a peripheral connection is enough reason to include a see-also link. But I also explicity added it is not a peripheral connection. Prima facie, you are misreadig and misquoting me. It seems you are just rethorically discussing with yourself. Good luck in that. At any rate, I do not believe there exists innocents at all. So, perhaps I only have to point out the fact that in your hiphotetical excercise, you did not prefer to mention the most extense and promminent collaboration, involvement and such connections between genocides and medical doctors, even by doctors who consider themeselves to be catholics. That would be at least a more grounded and productive rethorical excercise, or perhaps not even a rethoric but a true question. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 23:22, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

All the sources that've been provided have deficiencies that have been pointed out elsewhere in the thread, being cherry picked quotes, or in other ways unreliable. Mastcell's extrapolation of the logic you are using was valid in my opinion, that he didn't use every possible example is irrelevant. Falcon8765 23:31, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

It seems you were unable to understand my non-rethoric answer. Then I have to summarize my point for you: you are claiming absolutely falsehoods. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 23:35, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Planned Parenthood eugenics link

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There is disagreement on Talk:Planned Parenthood amongst several editors including myself over whether or not a See also section containing a link to Eugenics in the United States should be included in Planned Parenthood. As we don't seem to be working towards an agreement, I think some outside opinions would be valuable. Falcon8765 22:31, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

• RfC Comment. I have never edited this page before, and I've read the talk section above. Oh for goodness sake! Birth control is not eugenics. The claims above, of sourcing for eugenic motivations of early activists (as opposed to humanitarian motivations), are blatant cherry-picking. No, the link should not be in the See also section. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:09, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment. No one argued that the see-also link should be included, stating that birth control is eugenics. But that there is an historical connection betwwen birth control, eugenics and PP. Sources shows that birth control has been used on eugenics grounds. First birth control organizations were founded mainly by the eugenics moevement and also on eugenics grounds. There is an historical connection. the see-also link helps anyone interested in go deeper and investigate into a related subject. These are related subject and has not to be exactly the same thing which is an absurd demmand. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 23:32, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

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