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Revision as of 23:04, 20 March 2006

This article has serious factual problems

First of all the 'reference' used does not even mention this as a Kurdish festival.

Exactly, my point of using this reference, which is an official Turkish site, is to point out that Turkey now officially considers "Nevruz" as a Turkish holiday.Bertilvidet 16:16, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Now I am sensible enough to let you guys bring about a reference to justify the existance of this article, as clearly it should only be a section in Norouz. Until then, I am going to put a dispute tag --Kash 15:25, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

"Newroz" is one of many local prononciation varieties of Norouz the ancinet Persian New Year which is also celebrated by Kurds, Central Asian Turks, Azeris, Tajiks, Pashtuns and Bahai faith. As before, this article should be redirected to Norouz to avoid confusion. --ManiF 15:32, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate this but please atleast put a reference to where you are getting your information about the festival from. I am sure it exists but not as it is described here --Kash 15:39, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I myself first began the article from that article but bothe Newroz and Nauroz, (nauruz , noroz...) have their own article. ~This article is the Kurdish version. Yours is the Persian one. Still there are many other different versions. Since both have their own material, there is no need for redirection. Diyako Talk + 15:37, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I once before mentioned that the Persian Nuruz(na...) is full of mistake and POV and uncited stuff. The Kurdish Newroz article is a wel-cited article. The admins will look at the article and will find that there is nothing wrong with it. Diyako Talk + 15:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

If so, then mention the sources at the bottom of the page under the heading "References" --Kash 15:48, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

The are already seven eiight references in the article even in the front of the paragraphs which is more accurate than just in the reference section, but if this can help you I do it.Diyako Talk + 15:52, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Newroz and Norouz are not different, It's the same Festival with different pronunciations. This article should redirected to Norouz to avoid confusion. --ManiF 15:42, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

As you see they are totally different. Diyako Talk + 15:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

It is not. It's the same Festival. Your "source" is a Kurdish web-page. Newroz page was redirected to Norouz, before you decided that Newroz is a new festival. --ManiF 15:55, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

References

You mention this as a source:

This is what? a film review? You can't use this as a source on an encylopedia, not as a reference to a historical event atleast! --Kash 15:50, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Before any discussion or tag abusing read here. I repeat the Persian version is full of mistake. Diyako Talk + 15:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

First of all, if you have any problems with the Persian one, discuss it in that talk page.

Secondly even that source mentions "Turkey has appropriated this 3000 year-old Kurdish/Iranian/Persian/Zoroastrian NEWROZ festival"

That sounds like they are the same things to me? --Kash 15:59, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Not exactly the same, They all have their own traditions thus there are different pages for them. Diyako Talk + 16:02, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

If they are the same thing but there are different ways of celebrating them then maybe they should be merged.

This event is coming up tomorrow, it's best to make one good article instead of having several different ones, with no references and full of mistakes --Kash 16:04, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Total dispute?

It seems that any articles mentioning anything about Kurdishness gets the totally disuted tag. Maybe you should create a tag for this, warning that some find mentioning of Kurdishness offensive. Until then please point out the concrete passages in the text that should be POV or incorrect. Bertilvidet 16:11, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Although there is no question that Kurds celebrate Norouz, the problem is that yesturday this article did not exist, it was part of Norouz, now all of a sudden its a new festival!? So for this, please put on some sources to back it up. --Kash 16:16, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Creating an article about sth. is not the same as creating what the article is about. "yesturday this article did not exist" is not a problem. --Fasten 18:00, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

The historical part lacks sources, that is right - and that section is tagged. Where else is the problem? And you tag it as totally disputed...so please give us the arguments for lack of both NPOV and factual accuracy. Bertilvidet 16:20, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

See you talk --Kash 16:26, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Raison d'être of this article

As far as I understand, the main dispute actually is whether this article has its own raison d'être. I proposed on the norouz talk page that we create a proper article for the Kurdish version of Newroz. My argument for this is, that Newroz is a very important event for Kurds as a manifestation of their identity...My knowledge is solely about the current political significance about Newroz as a celebration of Kurdish identity. I guess the history is the same, and I dont know if the current ways of celebrating it are the same among Kurds as among Persians. It would be OK for me if this article solely deals with political implications of the Kurdish celebrations of Newroz - in the case that the history, traditions and rites are the same. Bertilvidet 16:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

If Norouz has political significance for Kurds, it can be mentioned in the Kurdistan page or the Kurdish people page or if we have a page related to Kurdish politics or even briefly in the Norouz article itself. Having separate articles creates the misunderstanding that Kurdish version is different while it is in fact identical. It is simply repeating the same stuff. One paragraph in the main page Norouz is enough to describe all the MINOR differences that exist. Their version is not just a different way of celebrating the beginning of spring, as some editors like to argue, it is the same IRANIAN way that includes Persians, Lurs, Balouch…etc as well. The differences are as much as the differences in style of one Iranian city to the next.

Gol 09:35, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

This is rather silly, I would go with Norouz and the Kurds as an article. But to get another transliteration of the same concept and try to sell it as a distinct entry is just a no go for me. Kaveh 09:48, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Stop the destruction

Would people please stop deleting this article. If you dont like the content, participate in the talk. Bertilvidet 16:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Page protection

I've protected this following a request, but we don't as a rule like to protect articles with the current-event tag on them, so could someone give me a quick rundown of the dispute, and how many people are involved on each side? SlimVirgin 16:48, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

There is a spring festival with different traditions among several western and central Asian peoples. This article is on the Kurdish version of the festival. Some people claim that this article should be merged into the Iranian article. But in fact there is no need for that. The Kurdish new year festival deserves its own article. Diyako Talk + 16:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for protecting the page. Hopefully this will give us more incentive to reach a compromise. Most of the debate is conducted at Talk:Norouz. As far as I understand the people deleting the article / redirecting it to Norouz, the question is whether the Kurdish celebration deserves its own article. On both sides some people have shown willingness to reach a compromise. As a compromise I suggest that we rename this article to "Kurdish Newroz celebration", as I believe it deserves an article, mainly on the grounds that the festival is an important manifestation of Kurdish identity - and keep a comprehensive Newroz/Norouz article that deals with the history og Newroz and the different way it is celebrated. Bertilvidet 17:02, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I think we already resolved this, restore/move Norouz and the Kurds and redirect this back to the main article. Kaveh 17:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

There is a 'Kurdish new year' and has a 'celebration'. This 'celebration' which is called 'Newroz' needs its own article. There is no need for merging.Diyako Talk + 18:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Norooz is an Iranian festival or Iranian new year festival. I have provided academic sources for that in Norooz page. Even in Kurdish pages, it should be mentioned that this is an Iranian festival. There is NO academic source that states that Newroz is a Kurdish festival. Diyako! We need academic sources (not a kurdish forum or webpage made by separaists or political activists.) in wikipedia. --Sina Kardar18:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

First your source does not claim Norouz is Iranian or at least merely Iranian, your third source is biased and is not a neutral one. I have discussed it before. for eample look at its biased slogan in the right corner above the page that says if there is no iran I'll die!! or that petition against oppressed azeri people In Iran. Secondly, My sources are not Kurdish although there are many Kurdish ones but I only have provided source from non-Kurdish sources or at least articles which are written by non-Kurdish people and I still can provide more. Third, As I said there is a Kurdish New year and Newroz is its celebration and deseves it own article. Diyako Talk + 18:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Sina, I would like to invite you to Turkey in order to assist a Newroz celebration here. You will see that millions of Kurds use this opportunity to reclaim cultural rights and to display pride. If you see that - or read some articles about it - you will realize that contemporary Newroz celebration is much more than an Iranian event. Bertilvidet 18:51, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

To discuss the background of Norouz is besides the point. The fact is that Diyako has created a new article out of a redirect page for the same concept (but a different transliteration). Start any article that doesn't entail this ambiguity and we will discuss its merits there. For now this page should be restored and redirect to our main previously accepted entry. If you want to rename that entry gain consensus there. If you want an article in relation to a specific population, pick a clear title. Kaveh 19:04, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

There was a wrong redirection and I started a new article which directly discuss the matter, it is not sin! About several weeks ago there was a redirection from 'Kurdish terroristic propaganda' to 'Kurdish music' article by user Khoikhoi whicgh I made the wrong redirection deleted by an admin. Afghanistan, Iran and Tajikstan all are Persian-speaking while Kurds are Kurdish-speaking, They have their own name for their festival. No need for Persian names. Diyako Talk + 19:13, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Norouz is not a Persian name, نوروز is and Newrouz, Norouz, Norooz and all others are merely transliterations of the same word! You seem a bit caught up in pronunciations, I must say I am startled. User:SlimVirgin, please restore the redirect and allow the user to justify his changes before any further alteration to the previously accepted naming convention. Kaveh 19:26, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes I know that exactly, but here the Newroz is the Kurdish common title for the Kurdish celebration of spring. Diyako Talk + 19:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. The title for such articles must follow a a well defined style like: "Norooz in Kurdistan" or "Norooz in Tajikistan" or "Norooz in Turkey" ...Read my comments in Norooz Talk page. --Sina Kardar 19:43, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

And this is the English Misplaced Pages and you have taken over a redirect for Norouz. Create an unambiguous entry for what you feel warrants an independent entry. We will discuss the merits of your arguments there. Kaveh 19:48, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

And all sources provided by me are English not Kurdish. Diyako Talk + 21:09, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Here is an article from Turkey clearly indicating that the Kurds all celebrate an Iranian festival. http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/4112557.asp?gid=74 69.196.139.250 21:01, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Hürriyet is a 'Turkish' newspaper! Diyako Talk + 21:05, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Interesting what another Turkish newspaper writes: http://www.zaman.com/?bl=national&alt=&trh=20060317&hn=31004 Bertilvidet 21:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean ? Turks are Iranian or Persian POV ??!!!! Hey guys! we do not need these sources. We have enough academic source at the end of the page Norooz. No doubt that this is an Iranian festival. --Sina Kardar21:09, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to interfere whether Norouz is Iranian or Akkadian or whatever. But I'm discussing that Newroz is the Kurdish celebration of spring, Don't agree? then ask admins for mediation. Diyako Talk + 21:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I have provided several academic sources. You might not care whether it is Iranian or not. Your personal view has no value here. I provided several academic sources but you were not able to provide even one. You are not expert and your personal view does not count. --User:Sina Kardar21:24, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

You sources are not better than mine which directly discuss the Kurdish new year. Diyako Talk + 21:27, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

My sources were academic (encyclopedia iranicca and center for iranian studies at univ london). You have NOT provided any ACADEMIC source yet. --User:Sina Kardar21:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Norouz is all the same festival Diyako and all the sources support this. The only Kurds that claim it is different are just seperatists, right? I mean even the pictures used on the article you have made up is all from a political party demonstration, admitted the photographer himself. --Kash 21:17, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

The contemporary celebration is not all the same. The Newroz celebrations in Turkey are highly politisezed. The photographer himself aka Bertilvidet 21:35, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I prefer a mediation and discuss the matter with admins rather than Iranian users. Diyako Talk + 21:27, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Whatever is the nationality of our co-editors is indeed irrelevant!!! Bertilvidet 21:30, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Because many Iranians are so proud that claim that Kurds are wild and have no culture no history nothing, but Iranian culture!! Iranians educated them, Iranian made Kurds to be human. They cannot be neutral. Diyako Talk + 21:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Please discuss the issue rather than your prejudicies! Kash has not expressed such views in this debate! Bertilvidet 21:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately this is your personal preoccupation. Not only Iranians but also persians do not think like this about Kurds. Provide a source that says "Iranians believe that they educated Kurds". or a source made by Iranians indicating that Kurds are non Iranian. --User:Sina Kardar21:37, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Calling Kurds as well as their culture and tradition to be Iranian is another insult made by Iranian and many other people. Diyako Talk + 21:43, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

OK ! If being Iranian is insult, I now delete my insult!!!!! Now you should provide basis for your claims and insults. --User:Sina Kardar21:45, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Please discuss the issue rather than determining others' nationality Bertilvidet 21:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC).

The only choice is mediation. Or renaming the Kurdish article as bertilvidet said, Kurdish celebration of Newroz. Diyako Talk + 21:43, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

This is getting quite trite. I do not wish to participate in this discussion anymore, a waste of time. Kaveh 21:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Please all of you friends forgive that That I discussed the matter of Iranians and Kurds. It does not belong to wikipedia or at least to this article. I was tired but It was my 'bad' .Diyako Talk + 22:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Compromise?

The only choice is mediation. Or renaming the Kurdish article as bertilvidet said, Kurdish celebration of Newroz. Diyako Talk + 21:49, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree. We should agree on a consistent style for all sister pages. What title do people suggest for a page on Norooz celebrations in Lurestan ? What is going to be the title for the page on Norouz celebrations in Tajikistan ?? Here is a bbc report of Norouz of Tajikistan . You see there are many interesting things in it and it needs a title. --User:Sina Kardar 21:56, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

This people who you are refering to all are Persian or conseiderd as Persian-speaking., Kurds speak another language and have a different but common name for the spring festival. This name is common and 'widely used' in English than any other word for Kurdish celebration. Kurds celebrate a Newroz festival this is all. Diyako Talk + 22:07, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

It is not true. There are many non-persian speaking areas like azerbaijan. It is strange that you are saying that Lors are persian or persian speaking !!!! Very good sign !! Please read this academic source. --User:Sina Kardar22:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I myself do not consider lors as perrsians, but their culture is heavily influenced by Persian. Diyako Talk + 22:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with using the word Newroz in the body of the article (not its title). The title of all sister pages should follow the same trend and also consistent with the mother page. --User:Sina Kardar22:15, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Dear Sina Kardar, What title u suggest? Diyako Talk + 22:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

My suggestions is the following:

If the title of the mother page is going to be Norouz then: I suggest Norouz Celebrations in Kurdistan (Newroz) and the same trend for other places : Norouz Celebrations in Tajikistan, Norouz Celebrations in Azerbaijan etc. It depends also on other peoples votes. --User:Sina Kardar22:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

But the point is that the Kurdish celebrations are not only in Kurdistan. 200.000 participated in Istanbul yesterday, and throughout Europe, among the diaspora, there are many events. I am convinced that the contemporary Kurdish celebrations - highly politisized - differ a lot from the Iranian celebrations. Bertilvidet 22:50, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

About Lors: yes it is true. Because here it is in favor of you, they become Persian. and on Persian language page they suddenly become non-persian. I really like your style! --User:Sina Kardar22:47, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I am against the use of 'Kurdistan' in to this, as far as I know Iranian and Iraqi Kurds don't celebrate it different to Iranians (I had a long discussion about it with my Kurd friends) --Kash 22:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Dear Kash, I was not aware of the difference. What do you think about my new suggestion ?--User:Sina Kardar22:58, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Dear Bertilvidet, we can also think about "Norouz celebrations among Kurds (Newroz)" as an alternative. Please notice that when you search for let's say "Iranian culture" you will be reverted to "Culture of Iran". It does not mean that those few milion Iranians out of Iran do not share Iranian culture. --User:Sina Kardar22:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

It may be also OK to use Kurdish Celebrations of Norouz. The word Norouz must be there to make it consistent with the mother page.--User:Sina Kardar23:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

The word Kurdistan will be disputde by many users (from middle east) who see it offensive! also it does not include all Kurdish people. Many Kurds live outside Kurdistan. The word Norouz has no meaning for Kurds. My suggestion is to remove any refering to this problematic word of N****z... and Instead agree on Spring celebration among Kurds or Kurdish spring celebration or Kurdish spring festival... But I should see what is others opinion esp Bertilvidet who I accept him as a quite neutral person. Diyako Talk + 23:04, 20 March 2006 (UTC)