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September 11 attacks

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result pending

This article was failed at GAN on 5 July and passed after resubmission on 25 July. Both reviewers considered that the article may be a case for WP:IAR, incorrectly in my view. My primary concern is that this article does not present a balanced view of the events surrounding 9/11, sticking rigidly to the official government line. All alternative accounts (aka conspiracy theories) are completely ignored, not even included in the See also section. I believe this gives undue weight to one particular version of events. Malleus Fatuorum 18:48, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

• I share Malleus's concerns about NPOV by omission. In addition there are several other areas where the article's coverage has been limited, in spite of the presence of reliable sources we could use. I have outlined these in the talk page but have not yet received any substantive response. --John (talk) 19:12, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

  Perhaps that is because the consensus of editors there do not share your opinion?--MONGO 22:50, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Exactly what I expected to see here from Malleus. Malleus, least you could have done is surprised me....very disappointed. More...later.MONGO 19:45, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

You won't find me as easy to intimidate as you have some others MONGO. Now please try not further lower the tone here by personalising my concerns about this article's recent promotion. Malleus Fatuorum 20:10, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

No intimidaton intended. I never once saw your concerns about the alleged POV issues at the article Rfa's which involved dozens of editors who twice reached an overwhelming consensus to not include conspiracy theories. In fact, in an effort to streamline and reduce the POV issues, two to three paragraphs which detailed the celebrations that broke out all over the Muslim (and even non-Muslim) regions of the world immediately after the attacks, were removed, though they were excellently referenced and the section was well written. What you want is a coatrack article which, instead of providing the best reliable witness to the immediate events, instead dwelves into psuedoscience, innuendo and fanciful misrepresentations. The article was promoted to GA (a process I was not involved in) and subsequently, in the drive to get it to FA level, the article HAS had major improvements in prose, MOS issues and other criteria. I myself have stated it still needs to be refined greatly before it is FA material, but the improvements alone since the GA promotion makes your attempt here appear to be nothing other than pettiness. Here you show your plan, a plan that has all the appearances of revenge for perceived slights rather than a goal of article improvement...you make it clear you intend to tear the article down rather than build it up....but instead of EDITING the article or contributing to the talk page there to voice your concerns, you do this action, which is exactly why I stated it is no surprise...that is not the Misplaced Pages way and I think you must be reminded to not disrupt Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point. So, in light of the fact that this article has seen major improvements since the GA promotion and that your action here is done, in my opinion, in bad faith, I certainly cannot support a demotion from its GA rating.--MONGO 22:24, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

• There was an RfC on the subject of the conspiracy theories a few months ago (link) which produced a consensus that they were not to be included. Describing the viewpoint of virtually all reliable sources as "the official government line" is a serious misrepresentation. Hut 8.5 20:23, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
  • Yes, I think the straw poll on extirpating all mention of conspiracies was a terrible idea. Local consensus does not override sitewide policies like NPOV, and nor should it be allowed to override GAR. An article about 9/11 which only gives the US government view is like an article on the Pearl Harbor attacks which neglects to mention both the poor preparedness of the defenders and the fact that the attack catapulted America into a World War. Do please note that there are other reasons to fail this article besides the omission of mention of conspiracy theories, that's just a really obvious example; see my comment just above and the longer discussion in article talk for some of the other suggestions towards improving the article which have been stonewalled. --John (talk) 21:17, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

    Only the government view...then why are the vast majority of sources from newspapers and books and not published or sponsored by the government of the U.S.? Are you suggesting that the newspapers are being told what to print by the government?--MONGO 23:07, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

• Procedural comment. The question at hand is whether the article meets the GA criteria, in particular 3(a) (coverage) and 4 (neutrality), but there may also be other issues to consider (prose? words to watch? synthesis?). The recent RfC/poll is only useful to the extent that the arguments made there may inform the present discussion. In my view, the poll was flawed, but my opinion, the outcome of the poll, whether the RfC was a good idea/well managed or not, etc. - these considerations are essentially irrelevant. This is an emotive topic, and personal agendas or disagreements need to be put to one side. Does the article meet the criteria or not? That is all. Geometry guy 22:52, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

• Comment. I am not a fan of fringe theories, let alone conspiracy theories. However, where those theories become a significant topic of public discourse, it is unencyclopedic and even irresponsible not to discuss them in an encyclopedia article. Avoiding mentioning them only feeds the conspiracy theory, whereas making the reader aware that the theory is widely known and discounted by most reliable sources allows them to make a more informed decision. This is an issue faced by many articles, such as Assassination of John F. Kennedy, Moon landing/Apollo program, Area 51, Loch Ness, etc. When involved in one such article, I suggest to consider how you might approach the treatment of conspiracy/fringe theories in some of the others. Geometry guy 22:52, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

  WP:ONEWAY applies in the article in question..it may also in the others you listed.--MONGO 23:02, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

  It may indeed, and as a part of WP:FRINGE, it may provide helpful advice which editors can use here, but WP:FRINGE is not, in itself, a GA criterion. The GA criteria are the only criteria that matter here. Geometry guy 23:27, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) This continued emphasis on "conspiracy theories" is disingenuous. The first plane struck at 8:46 am, the last at 10:03 am, 77 minutes later. It needs to be explained why the USAF apparently made no effort to intercept any of these hijacked aircraft, and what if anything has done since then to deal with a future incident like this one. The controlled demolition theory has also had some support from academic physicists and needs to be at least mentioned, not ignored. Malleus Fatuorum 23:38, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

"It needs to be explained...". No it doesn't unless there are reliable sources which raise the question. If there are, Misplaced Pages should report how the question is discussed in reliable sources. Geometry guy 00:07, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes it does need to be explained, as reliable sources have discussed the issue. Malleus Fatuorum 00:13, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Good. Then it is a matter for discussion below whether such information should be included in the article to meet the GA criteria. Geometry guy 00:19, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, but let me be more precise. I'm not talking about the whacky idea that Dick Cheney was in charge of NORAD on 9/11 and that he ordered them to stand down, but a rational discussion of why NORAD was powerless to do anything and what, if anything has changed to make NORAD, less ineffectual if something similar should happen again. It seems ridiculous to me to argue that this article on an air attack could be considered to be sufficiently broad to meet the GA criteria when it fails to address the issue of the US's air defences on the grounds that to do so would be to give weight to fringe theories. Malleus Fatuorum 01:05, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Then let me be more precise also. It is not the role of Misplaced Pages to act as a political commentator on the state of the US air defense in general, or NORAD in particular. Nor is it our role to improve US air defenses. The GA criteria are not based on what "seems ridiculous" to an individual editor. Geometry guy 01:27, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I think I know the GA criteria at least as well as you do. It is my firm belief that by omitting such information, along with completely ignoring the entire issue of the various conspiracy theories, that the article fails to meet criterion 3a. You are of course free to disagree, but you are unlikely to change my mind. Malleus Fatuorum 01:38, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I have already raised the issue above that the article might not meet 3a, but I have not settled on a position. I cannot therefore attempt to change your mind to my position, as I don't have one. What is needed below is good reasoning. Geometry guy 01:51, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Let's be brave and point out the elephant in the room here. The last time I tried to help at this article two years ago, an IP was trying to add information regarding the non-response of the USAF. I supplied a decent book source, but the suggestion was not taken up. The debate finished up with "how do you report these fringe/POV problems? I want to report violations like this" and I walked away disgusted. Nobody challenged the contention by User:Dcs002 that this constructive and certainly well-intentioned suggestion was a "violation". Multiply this by a large number and you have an article that looks like this. The talk page is not a friendly place to go; as recently as yesterday I made what I thought was a constructive suggestion there, to be met with snark. I hate to say it, but there has been a long-term user conduct problem there, and this has held the article back. For it to improve, user conduct around this article would need to improve. I have no idea how to accomplish this. On the specific point of the USAF non-response, I can easily provide two excellent book sources, if there is any will to include this type of material, something I am currently unconvinced of. --John (talk) 02:24, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I'd point out as well that it was a "fringe idea" in the early 19th century that the human body could survive the stresses of travelling faster than 30 mph. Fringe ideas are not by definition wrong, and need to be given due weight, whatever that is, not ignored. Malleus Fatuorum 23:43, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Both you and John are promoting conspiracy theories...you say physicists question the collapse of the towers...which physicists....show me where their information has been published by a reliable source which provides peer review. You mention NORAD...the airforce being told to step down...so what. You think without know how many, which, where hijacked aircraft were in the air...you must have been reading some really bad information to sound so utterly ignorant. Seriously, you and John sound like you both have no idea what the theory of occums razor is when applied to these conspiracy theories...that either of you two can't seem to understand that these are conspiracy theories indicates to me that you are either extremely ill inform or ignorant. John should have been topic banned from 9/11 related articles years ago...his interest in what goes in them has almost universally been fringe info...even by progressive standards. It should be noted that a periperal article on 7 WTC was John's old haunt...where under his old username he almost ceaselessly tried to get CT nonsense mainstreamed there in a massive POV push...so this is just more of the same...7 WTC is an FA thanks to Aude who opposed John for admin...I should have followed her lead. Does all this sound like persoanl attacks...I hope so...I'm sick and tired of fringe theory promoters keeping this and other articles in the dark ages with their constant demands for NPOV coverage of nonsense. MONGO 04:51, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

At least I can spell Occam's razor, which doesn't demand that we ignore valid questions such as NORAD's inactivity but rather adopt the simplest plausible explanation for them. It is not a fringe theory to state quite simply that in the aftermath of the attacks doubts were expressed that the collapse of the Twin Towers could have been caused by the impact of the aircraft alone. But this article also has many others problems not yet touched on, not least its overall structure and general feel of flabbiness and turgidity in the writing, none of which can be fixed in the face of such stubborn aggression as you habitually display. Malleus Fatuorum 14:12, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I think the article easily satisfies GA criteria...but needs consolidation to be an FA...therefore your efforts to at synthesis by cherry picking misinformation to suit your POV and to promote fringe material would have zero room for coverage in an FA level article about this event. There may be a place for your speculations and innuendo in a daughter article, but not here.MONGO 15:53, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I think I have considerably more experience of what is and isn't required of a GA than you do MONGO, and if I believed that this article met the GA criteria then I obviously would not have initiated this reassessment. It doesn't matter how many times you repeat your desperate claims of "innuendo" or "misinformation", or deliberately close to your eyes to this article's fundamental bias and gaps, it will not change the truth. Which is that in my view it does not meet GA criterion 3a. Malleus Fatuorum 16:01, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Don't quit your day job if this is as good as you can do for trying to establish some basis to demote this article. Like I showed above, your motives are obvious and your pettiness overt. Your basis of the issue is your claim the article is biased since it doesn't dwelve into conspiracy and fringe theories that only uneducated and/or ignorant people pay attention to. You don't seem to have any understanding of the undue weight clause of NPOV or ONEWAY.MONGO 19:22, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Your continuing personal attacks are doing your case no favours MONGO, and as I said at the start of this review, you will not find it as easy to intimidate me as you have done certain other editors. So no point in persisting with it, it won't work. Malleus Fatuorum 19:30, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Likewise....that you'd think I find your commentary since we first met to be anything other than insulting would be a laugh...--MONGO 22:06, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

The controlled demolition theory has also had some support from academic physicists - one academic physicist (Steven E. Jones, previously known for his work on nuclear fusion) has given it support. As a result he was placed on leave from his university and the departments of physics and engineering issued statements saying they do not support his theories. The controlled demolition theory has had hardly any impact in the scientific community and there are sources which support this assertion.

The other issue which has been raised is that the article does not discuss the reasons why the US Air Force did not intercept the flights. This is a perfectly legitimate topic discussed in reliable sources and is not a fringe theory (not necessarily, anyway). The issue is not whether Misplaced Pages should cover it, but where Misplaced Pages should cover it. This is quite a detailed point, the article is already quite long, and there is a sub-article on the topic at U.S. military response during the September 11 attacks. GA criterion 3b states that articles shouldn't go into unnecessary details and should delegate them to sub-articles. Hut 8.5 14:10, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

THe issue has never been whether or not Misplaced Pages should cover the topic of NORAD's lack of action but whether this article should. This is an article on an air attack that completely ignores the question of air defence, which I think you'll find a hard sell to persuade anyone is "unnecessary detail". Malleus Fatuorum 14:18, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

• So people have found yet another forum to argue for the inclusion and/or expansion of conspiracy theories in the article. Well, the scope and wieghting of topics is determined by the reliable sources. These make clear that those theories are too peripheral to include, so I don't see there's much to be done. My advice is not to let GA, or FA, or any of that be used as a lever to distort the article. Tom Harrison 14:52, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I disagree, I'm sure that editors here, regardless of their pov, are well aware of current google trends. It is now undeniable that 9/11 conspiracy theories have entered the mainstream (aol, bbc, guardian, slate, al jazeera…). With regards to our basic policies and guidelines, at this point in time there is simply no excuse. We cannot turn the blind eye and omit conspiracy theories from the main article dedicated to 9/11 attacks. DeifactedNethicite (talk) 14:55, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I disagree too. I can't believe that you would think it was ok not to mention the conspiracy theories on this article. Just, wow. Also, there are five areas at article talk which editors are discussing towards restoring some NPOV to this article. How come you are only talking about one? My fear is that your side is the one obsessed with conspiracy theories. --John (talk) 15:03, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

• I think it would be helpful if John and MONGO kept their interpersonal dispute and their own personal biases out of the question of whether or not the article the article meets the GA criteria. Unfortunately, I'm inclined to agree that it does not.

  I'm not a fan of the conspiracy theories, in fact my personal opinion is that many of them are insulting to the memory of the 3,000 people who dies that day, but unfortunately, they are indisputably notable, they have had a lot of coverage in the mainstream media, and are getting a lot more as the tenth anniversary approaches. That they are not even mentioned in the article, not even under the "see also" section (but Survivor registry, of tangential relevance at best, is) smacks of (understandable, but unacceptable) wilful suppression and editorial censorship. I watched a fascinating documentary the other day that tackled some of the most prominent conspiracy theories (including NORAD's ineffectiveness, United 93 supposedly being shot down, the controlled demolition theory), by putting them to mainstream, (apparently) neutral experts, who dismissed them quite convincingly. By tackling the subject in context, we can avoid giving it undue weight.

  But the conspiracy theories are not the only thing—John gives a few good examples on the talk page, and I'm not convinced the material on the aftermath is adequate.

  The biggest problem the article faces is the atmosphere on the talk page, though, which is very hostile to the inclusion of anything currently excluded or the exclusion of anything currently included. It seems to me that a group of editors have done a remarkable job of greatly improving the article, but are extremely resistant to any further changes. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:15, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

  We have a plethora of 9/11 related pages dedicated to conspiracy theories...this one should be dedicated to the facts.MONGO 19:45, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

In your opinion. And it's because vocal people like you are used to getting their way on the talk page, one way or the other, you've forgotten that your opinion is no more or less valid than anybody else's. But the fact of the matter is that any article that omits—suppresses, even—relevant, notable, and easily sourced details about its subject cannot possibly meet criterion 3a or 4. Frankly, I don't think the article ever will meet the GA criteria (never mind the FA criteria) until you depart from it or start considering that, just because you and the clique who behave like the article is their sovereign territory hold a contrary opinion, does not mean that a topic is not up for discussion. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:02, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

We all have opinions. We resolve disagreements on the talk page by discussion and argument, and sometimes we have an RfC. The structure and content of the page is the result of that process, and it reflects the scope and weighting in the reliable sources on 9/11. Anyone can participate and anyone can edit (except for a few under abrcom sanction). The article isn't ruled by a clique any more than the FA process is. There's no mechanism by which I could form a clique and rule. If I wanted to do that, I'd look elsewhere. So, apply whatever standards are appropriate for determining GA status, and keep it or revoke it accordingly. To change the article, engage on the talk page and get consensus for what you want. Tom Harrison 20:44, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I think that most sensible editors have abandoned the idea of discussion on the talk page as a waste of time. Hence this GAR. Malleus Fatuorum 21:09, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

You seem to be saying all right-thinking men of goodwill agree with you, and your position would prevail through reason, but for the underhanded machinations of the shadowy cabal that runs the talk page. That's mistaken. Arguments to include the conspiracy theories will prevail if they're sound arguments supported by the weighting given the CTs in reliable sources. They haven't been sound, or supported by the literature. So far they've just been assertions that "my weighting is self-evidently the correct weighting for this topic," combined with personal condemnation of anyone who disagrees. Tom Harrison 21:32, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

(ec w/Malleus) The problem is that the local consensus on that talk page is that the article is dandy, and that anybody suggesting otherwise is just being stubborn or disruptive. But local consensus on a talk page doesn't override core policy or the FA or GA criteria, and I'm afraid suppressing material because we don't like it doesn't make an article complete, however much we want it to. To give an example from my own experience, during the Iranian Embassy siege, Iran declared that the terrorists were CIA agents; the claim was plainly ridiculous, but it's included in the article and given due weight (which is not a lot) because it's relevant, and because presenting all viewpoints is a key element of neutrality. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:18, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm saying that no experienced GA reviewer would have listed the article as GA, but an inexperienced one was persuaded to as the result of pressure imposed by the 9/11 supporters, in particular MONGO. But the reviewers here are not so easily brushed aside. Malleus Fatuorum 22:11, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

You can't just assert that your position is self-evidently NPOV and therfore must prevail, because NPOV is core policy. I mean, you can assert that, but it's no surprise that it's unpersuasive. That's not a problem with the talk page, that's the talk page functioning as designed. Tom Harrison 21:26, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

You're putting word in my mouth, now. Disappointing, because I thought you were one of the more sensible editors there. But let's take that at face value for a minute: WP:NPOV is a core content policy; fact. The article currently only covers one viewpoint (the mainstream viewpoint); fact. NPOV and the GA criteria require that articles " viewpoints fairly and without bias, giving due weight to each" (direct quote from WP:WIAGA); fact. So how can you continue to justify the suppression of even a mention of non-mainstream views if you want the article to attain GA or FA status? I hate to be the one advocating the inclusion of conspiracy theories, but not a single other reliable source I've seen doesn't make even a mention of the conspiracy theories and you can't claim the article is neutral or comprehensive without at least acknowledging that they exist. And the conspiracy theories are the most controversial, but certainly not the only issue with this article's neutrality or coverage. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:43, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Now that Tom disagrees with you, he's being unsensible? I think Tom has made it clear regarding the talkpage...the references and additions you are suggesting for inclusion fail to be viable for a number of reasons, including especially the undue weight clause of NPOV and ONEWAY, and this has been brought forth at talk and repeatedly rejected. That you don't seem to grasp this is bewildering, but I feel saddened if you assume that just a small "clique" of editors have had this much control over this article. But perhaps this "clique" is trying to ensure the article doesn't become a COATRACK for every zany piece of innuendo and nonsense? To say that, "not a single other reliable source I've seen doesn't make even a mention of the conspiracy theories" indicates you simply are poorly read on the subject.--MONGO 22:00, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

@HJ Mitchell: Sorry, I may have conflated your argument with others. If it's a question of the due weight of a fringe view, 'The Looming Tower doesn't present the conspiracy theories to any significant degree, to give just one example. If most books about 9/11 included a chapter on the conspiracy theories, it would be due weight to mention the theories. They don't, so we don't. Part of the problem is these theories are far more prominent and heavily promoted on line and on Misplaced Pages, and that gives people a mistaken view of their importance in the literature, which is minimal. Tom Harrison 22:09, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

You're perfectly entitled to take that line if you wish, but the bottom line is that if you do this article will likely lose its GA listing and will stand no chance of ever getting within shouting distance of FA. Is that what you want for it? If it is, then I suggest that you stop putting it forwards at review processes whose criteria it clearly fails to meet. Malleus Fatuorum 22:16, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Content, scope, and weighting are determined by the literature, not by the GA/FA reviewers. I'm not prepared to distort the article for an FA star, so I guess I'll just have to do without, speaking only for myself. Tom Harrison 22:21, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

We're talking about the GA blob here, not the FA star. "Content scope and weighting" are judged by the reviewers, not by you. Malleus Fatuorum 22:24, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Our policies require the content, scope, and weighting be determined by the reliable sources. I'm not prepared to deviate from that for a blob, or star, or a golden coronet, which you should really institute so there's something beyond FA to which people can aspire. Tom Harrison 22:34, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

You continue to miss the point. Both GA and FA are about independent assessments, not what you think. Malleus Fatuorum

Our policies require the content, scope, and weighting be determined by the reliable sources. I'm not prepared to deviate from that for a blob, or star, or a golden coronet, which you should really institute so there's something beyond FA to which people can aspire. Tom Harrison 22:34, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Malleus, in other words, we need to violate policy so the article will fit your bias? Something is really wrong with this website when arbitrariness such as you indicate has sway over what is good and what is bad writing, and it's scary to see your wanton disregard of policy, reliable sourcing, undue weight and numerous other policies just so your POV is in article content. Your assumed powers are self appointed and consequently they are arbitrary and nonbinding.--MONGO 23:25, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I have no idea why you continue to try and intimidate me. Better that you avoid any further personal comments and try to address the substantive issues being raised here as best you can. Malleus Fatuorum 23:42, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

If you're intimidated it is your own doing. I am merely pointing out the facts of this case. That your actions here have malice, that you are self appointed and that, as I clearly stated, your disregard of policy, reliable sourcing, undue weight and numerous other policies just so your POV is in article content, is unWikipedian. The article is not worthy of GA because it doesn't fit your POV...you have made that clear...however, we will not violate policy just so it will, and therefore it cannot be demoted whether you like that or not.--MONGO 23:55, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

MONGO, you really do need to wake up. You are one of the major impediments to this article ever being a neutral account of the events on that day. No amount of abuse will ever change that simple fact. Malleus Fatuorum 00:16, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Malleus, one substantive issue of due weight is addressed just above (and at great length in the talk page archives): To include the conspiracy theories would give them undue weight - prominance disproportionate to that given by the reliable sources and the literature about 9/11. It's not useful to refuse to acknowledge the issue or to address it, simply repeating that you're right and I'm wrong. Tom Harrison 00:01, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

That's your opinion, not mine. My opinion is that to deliberately ignore alternative views, even when they've been reported in reliable sources, is unacceptable. Malleus Fatuorum 00:08, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Ignore nothing. There is a level of reliable sources that need to be accumulated to overturn the current consensus, and no one has be able to provide them. The majority belongs in related articles and not this one. Fringe is fringe for a reason. If you are so willing to ignore years of established consensus just to remove GA, then perhaps you should re-examine what you hope to achieve in this project. --Tarage (talk) 00:57, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Which project is it that you think I have no interest in? Yours or Wikipiedia's? You need to focus on the issues, not the individuals. Malleus Fatuorum 01:02, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Speaking of issues, there remains un-addressed the substantive issue I thought you wanted to take up, based on what you wrote above. It's been reported in reliable sources that some people think the Jews did it. It's been reported in reliable sources that a few Palestinians danced in the streets when they heard the news, and that others named their sons Osama. Those aren't in the article, and shouldn't be, because due weight is as binding as the rest of our policies. Tom Harrison 01:25, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

You're missing the point Tom. This review is simply to decide whether the article meets the GA criteria. Malleus Fatuorum 01:29, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

All articles, GA and otherwise, must follow our core policies. You can't substitute your own requirements for those policies. Or if you can, and GA is simply arbitrary, well, what's that worth? I'm puzzled that you keep asking people to talk about the substantive issues. The substantive issue is due weight, and you refuse to talk about it. Tom Harrison 01:41, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

There must surely come a time Tom when even you begin to get the feeling that blustering just won't cut it. Malleus Fatuorum 01:51, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

It's not a matter of blustering on my part. "You need to focus on the issues, not the individuals" as you said yourself just above. Due weight isn't optional. You say the article underweights the conspiracy theories. The literature and reliable sources say otherwise, as I point out above with an example. That's the substantive issue you still haven't addressed. Tom Harrison 01:57, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

You have an opinion, I have a different one. Let's see how it plays out. Malleus Fatuorum 02:04, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

One of the many persuasive arguments made in the article talk page (which resulted in a decisive consensus against inclusion of CTs) was that RS did indeed mention CTs, but virtually all of them were RS about conspiracy theories, and not about the attacks themselves. In fact, it was established that nowhere in the 911 report, NIST reports, or any other official or mainstream scientific sources that deal strictly with the attacks are CTs even mentioned, let alone explored. Thus, the inclusion of CTs in an article on the attacks would be going against mainstream sources in giving them undue weight. Has this situation changed since the recent consensus was reached? If not, I see no point in rehashing this subject just to remove it from GA status. Shirtwaist ☎ 07:25, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

It must have been one brilliant discussion, if you managed to conclude that 9/11 conspiracy theories have nothing to do with 9/11. DeifactedNethicite (talk) 07:51, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Here, I’m addressing "substantive issue":

9/11 conspiracy theories – BBC

How did 9/11 conspiracism enter the mainstream? – Slate (magazine)

September 11 conspiracy theories continue to abound – The Guardian

The Politician Turned Conspiracy Theorist – Der Spiegel

Sceptics cast doubt on events of 9/11 – Al Jazeera

9/11 Conspiracy Theories Still Persist 10 Years Later – Voice of America

One in seven believe U.S. government staged the 9/11 attacks in conspiracy – Mail Online

There, welcome to the mainstream, forget your personal views and deal with it, or stop pushing this nonsense. DeifactedNethicite (talk) 09:54, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

It was one brilliant discussion, actually. Check it out. Shirtwaist ☎ 18:18, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

• Just dropping by to offer the incredibly helpful observation that this is why I focus on history-related articles rather than current events. 9/11 is still treated as "current events" in the US (every election cycle). No matter how you distill it, vet it, or summarize it, it's hard to see how you can take all the craziness in constant circulation and make an article that's simultaneously going to pass the GA criteria and also be stable ... if it brings up every hot-button (but non-fringe) issue around, then you're going to need an army of Wikipedians to maintain the article, and our armies are depleted. I've been shamefully AWOL at GAR and I don't want to offer a vote on a call that's this tough, but reading the discussion has made me very skeptical that this will ever get to FA if it does survive the GAR. - Dank (push to talk) 10:20, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

• Me too just dropping by - to be honest I was very surprised to see this pass the GA review in the first place. I believe we had an inexperienced reviewer (just as with 2012 (film) that has no refs in the first huge section - yet passed the review), Not trying to knock the reviewer (I am sure they had noting but the best intention) just that its clear the article was passed with a "minor review process". Many concerns were not address in the review and are still an ongoing issue. Moxy (talk) 15:29, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

  The review was actually much longer in discussion than most I see at GA.--MONGO 02:15, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

  And that was at least partly because of the same kind of intimidation and brow-beating that we're seeing here. A long review =/= a good review. Malleus Fatuorum 02:49, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

  You must be easily intimidated then. Surprise...I nominated Moxy for admin...and was sad to see him/her not succeed...so Moxy surely knows my comments were not and never meant to be "intimidating" or "brow-beating".--MONGO 03:11, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

  It's not working MONGO, just drop all these personal remarks. It's childish and boring. Malleus Fatuorum 03:20, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

• Comment Regarding conspiracy theories, there was an lengthy discussion that lasted months and included 2 RfCs, and consensus was against inclusion. I'm not sure what more could have possibly have been done. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:13, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
  • The issue here is not your RfCs. You may decide to do whatever you like locally, but here we're concerned about judging whether or not the article meets the GA criteria. Malleus Fatuorum 03:18, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
    • If this reassessment is simply over the issue of wanting to give undue weight to a fringe theory, then this is all much ado about nothing. WP:NPOV does not require crank theories be given equal time or even mention. Can this reassessment be speedily closed? This doesn't seem to be a legitimate issue. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:26, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
      • It will certainly not be speedily closed. Malleus Fatuorum 03:28, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
        • Well, you have to come up with a reason for why it doesn't meet WP:GA. Your complaint seems to be that you want the article to give undue weight to crank theories. All articles must follow WP:NPOV. If you cannot come up with a legitimate reason why this article doesn't meet WP:GA, then I would say that the discussion has run its course, and it can be closed by any uninvolved registered user. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:38, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
          • It can only be closed by a bonafide GA expert like Malleus...and surely no pun intended for myself and others have witnessed how Malleus is indeed the end all be all and we must bow to him and his authority. WE........are not worthy.--MONGO 03:44, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
            • Obviously I can't close a review I initiated. At least that's obvious to me anyway. Malleus Fatuorum 03:56, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

• I failed this at GA2 and felt that the editor promptly shopped for another reviewer to pass it with many of the issues remaining unresolved.
  • The first sentence still does not make it clear that the 9/11 is most often pronounced as a pair of numbers (nine-eleven).
  • I noted that the responder total was unclear, so it is now buried. The lead should probably have an exact total, with an exact total of responders and an exact total of hijackers.
  • I am still unsure what the first 85 seconds of the security footage is all about.
  • However, most of the rest of my concerns are now resolved. I would probably pass this with some minor tinkering, now. The big thing that I think need addressing is how to explain that 9/11 is pronounced as nine-eleven.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:57, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages good article reassessment