Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:09, 26 March 2006

This article was nominated for deletion on December 162005. The result of the discussion was keep.

This article was nominated for deletion on March 182006. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Disputed

This article is clearly used to push political agenda. There is no scientific proof that this can be characterized as psychological disorder (phobia). Whoever put it up should present some proof.--Dado 22:37, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

• Who says it is about "physical disorder"? Please read Phobia#Non-clinical uses of the term. mikka (t) 22:56, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

If no actual backing for a legit and notable existance of this term exists i suggest that we move to strike ---> SpeedyDel. Chelman

• Usage mentioned in the article. Buy yourself google. The term was in use even before WWI. mikka (t) 22:56, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Please also do not confuse the POV which is expressed by the term itself and the POV of wikipedia article. Misplaced Pages is supposed to legitimately present any POV in a NPOV way. mikka (t) 23:07, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

The use of the phrase was political not scientific and it was also POV and pushing of political agenda. The article is not clear about the use of the term. POV + POV does not make NPOV. Sorry, but no evidence has been presented and the phrase is being misused today for various political goals. POV tag is back until some scientific NPOV proof is presented. --Dado 23:32, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Anti-semitism is schism. "Serbophobia" is claiming to be phobia (clinical). I could accept the note that this article is meant in its non-clinical i.e. political sense although I think that the whole article is non-sense and has no base in reality. As the article curretly reads it is POV and has no information to support the claim. --Dado 00:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

• Can you read? A notable person mentioned who used the word in available document. This is reality. Many Serbs like to use this word. Please read the policy NPOV then come back. mikka (t) 01:16, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I can read, and your presumption of my "(i)literacy" has been noted. If you cared to notice someone has removed your note that "The term is used in a non-clinical sense" (which I generally agree with) before you added it back again. Obviouslly the intention of the original author of the article was quite different from what you are claiming. I should also point out rather dangerous conclusion of the statement "as exemplified by a New York Times article (April 1, 2001), Milosevic Is Accused, but All of Serbia Is on Trial". This could be interpreted as implicitly accusing New York Times of racism. Something that may entertain NYT attorneys as potential slander of the newspaper. I would suggest removing it --Dado 03:14, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Apologies for harsh tone.

I don't care about the initial intentions of the author, which was an obvious misnomer, which I fixed. I am not "claiming" anything. I added not a single my interpretation of the term: it is a bare definition, easily found elsewhere, and examples of usage.

If the title of the NYT article is not racism (i.e., declaring that the whole nation is bad; a textbook example), then I don't know what else racism is. I am ready to stand this trial. I would politely suggest you to think about free speech and, more important in terms of "trial", about the difference between what is written and what is read. mikka (t) 03:37, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

This metaphorical way of thinking of the nation as a person is very common in political discourse. Look up conceptual metaphor. This is certainly not restricted to serbia/serbians. - FrancisTyers 02:21, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

All I meant to say is that the title was possibly taken out of context (as it is done many times). This should be as simple as "don't judge the book by its cover". --Dado 04:21, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I've seen the article. Besides, context or not, precisely the title sparkled the protest. And of course the "killer title" was deliberate, not just not a slip of tongue. It was a mass hysteria in the USA, just like they tried to find "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq and many other campaigns, to justify bombing someone (arsenals must be refreshed, you know, and it is cheaper to bomb someone than to safely dispose an old bomb (my pet theory :-)) mikka (t) 06:42, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Since we are using comparisons and I think that your reference to the mass hysteria about "weapons of mass destruction" realy refers to maybe Islamophobia (or maybe Arabophobia). As an example, prior to the invation of Iraq about 600 Arabs were arrested in USA as suspects of terrorism. They were held for varied lengths of time (some as long as 3 months) only to have one (1) person charged for violations of immigration law and others released. Speaking of mass hysteria I think most Americans don't even know who are Serbs and where Serbia is (and why should they). The NYT article is completely irrelevant for reasons that 1. it is incorect 2. it is an obscure opinion piece 3. has no basis in reality in portraying the contemporary culture in USA (to which it appeals) towards Serbs

This is not the evidence that is needed to justify this article --Dado 04:21, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Furthermore the title refers to Serbia Is on Trial. which could be interpreted as Serbia as institution is on trial and not Serbs as people. Last time I checked Serbia is country of many nations. If there are no further objections I will remove this sentance. --Dado 06:11, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

The term was used, e.g., by Danon Cadik, Chief Rabbi of Yugoslavia et. al. in the open letter to the American Jewish Committee in 1995 during the bombing of the Serbs by Nato.

There is a matter of accuracy in using the term Serbophobia in this statement. The above Rabbi was refering to bombing of military positions of Republika Srpska Army during the Operation Deliberate Force whose objective was to undermine the military capability of Bosnian Serbs. Serbs as civilians were not the target. The use of the term is to say the least "wrong" and appeal to emotions to push particular POV agenda. --Dado 06:22, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I am listing this article for deletion as the side who started this article has not presented valid claims and/or answered the issues raised on the discussion page. The last edit shows that we are dealing with an issue that is being "force-fed" to Misplaced Pages and it is not being done in good faith. In fact as the article currently stands it is being used for particular agenda and further POV pushing on other articles.--Dado 21:42, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Well now we have what seems to be a image of a weapon that was used in Jasenovac concentration camp. As much as I respect what happened to Serbs in Jasenovac, how is this image relevant for this article. It's place is on the article about Jasenovac or otherwise it is appeal to emotions and its relevance for this article is a stretch. --Dado 00:51, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Maybe it could be relevant because of its name? Nikola 07:29, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

So far I have a feeling that I am leading a monologue here so if no one has anything to say about issues presented above I will be reverting the page to a version I think makes this article bareable and NPOV --Dado 23:34, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

1.Serbophobia is not a term in use in Croatian nor Bosnian language or it as much in use as in any other language. It is a term that was "manufactured" by the Serbian academics for reasons already mentioned in the article and it is perhaps only used in Serbia today. There is no reason to list any variations of the word except in Serbian.

I have easily found two Croatian examples: and . Nikola 08:17, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I'll give you Croatian but I still think it is used only as much as in any other language.--Dado 14:32, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

2.Again we had a picture on this article that was nothing more than an appeal to emotions. It has nothing to do with the term itself.

I will return the other picture. That someone designed a knife specially for slaughtering Serbs and named it so is as good example of Serbophobia as one could get. Nikola 08:17, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Maybe in your head. Quite a sick way to justify a political term. It was removed before and it should be removed again. Place it where it belongs (Jasenovac) --Dado 14:32, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

3.Serbophobia is spread today among some Croats, Bosniaks and Kosovo's Albanians as a reaction of the alienation of Serbs during the wars with these people. This accusations/garbage is not helping and is highly offensive agenda especially since such claims cannot be proven.

I am attempting to make this article as neutral as possible something that I have said in my commentary about deletion that will be almost imposible to do and because of it the article would be best deleted. If the article is reverted again without discussions on this page it will be a vandalism in progress and could well see another round of deletion considerations.--Dado 19:26, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Serbophobia is spread today among some Croats, Bosniaks and Kosovo's Albanians as a reaction of the alienation of Serbs during the wars with these people. The fact is that certain (the word some) groups of the mentioned people do hate Serbs. Like some Serbs hate these and other people.heh-you cannot say this is untrue.--TheFEARgod 22:45, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I am saying that it is untrue as no one can suffer from Serbophobia because it is not a phobia but a political accusation. In a same way the sentance above is an insulting political accusation and Misplaced Pages is not a place for spreading of political agenda. --Dado 00:24, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

prove Serbs are not hated among the people with whom the Serbs were at war!

Are you kidding me? You make a dubious claim and I have to prove it if it is true or not. What am I, your intern?

Dado, nisi domar ali si bezobrazan preko svake mere. Znas dobro da mnogi mrze Srbe, pocev od tebe samoga i jos trazis da ti neko to dokazuje. Stidi se, i to je najmanje sto ti mogu reci. Nikola 09:48, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Translation: Dado, you are not "domar" but you are arrogant above all. You know well that many hate Serbs, starting from yourself and than you ask for others to prove it to you. Be ashamed and that is least that I can tell you.

I asked others not to pin blame in a fascist manner to entire nations for something that is not even proven and is an insulting accusation. You are resorting to personal and emotional attacks now to discredit valid arguements that I have pointed out and you are making insulting accusations towards me personally. Perhaps you should check your behaviour on this and other articles of similar subject for a change. --Dado 01:23, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

You are lying and POVing over entire Misplaced Pages, including this statement where you implied that I am a fascist. You have no valid arguments whatsoever. Nikola 13:33, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

A little less hypocracy wouldn't hurt you Smolenski. Dado never implied you were fascist, merely that you pinned blame in a "fascist manner". Do you remember this talk page Nikola? Here when User:HolyRomanEmperor called one of my notes "purely fascistic" you were quick to point out to me that "He didn't say that. One fascist remark doesn't mean that you are fascist overall.". Well Nikola, here I'd like to point out that one instance of pinning the blame in a fascist manner doesn't mean that you are fascist overall either. Cheers. Asim Led 18:47, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

The article already talks about this term as a political statement so you cannot prove that anyone is suffering from this "phobia". Use your head and not your emotions for a change.

For psycholocical analysis or a case study of the war in Bosnia read "Than they started shooting: Growing Up In Wartime Bosnia" by Lynne Jones, for start. You need some serious reality check.

The article is being reverted --Dado 18:40, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Indeed... Nikola 13:33, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Among those three nations Serbs have had far outnumbered other two nations, had far strongest political power and had their dinasty Karadjordjevici for a Yugoslavias rulers.

Why is this sentence relevant for this article? --Dado 18:49, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

There are at least 10 sentances (noted ) that require a source or a citation. Until sources are provided or sentances are removed the article is considered Misplaced Pages:Original research. Removal of Original research warrning tag can be considered Misplaced Pages:Vandalism --Dado 20:14, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Croats were ruled by serbian king and serbian politians. Then, the Serbophobia was founded. Then the incidents started... There was a big one in parlament, then someone got shot... --Milan Tešovic 02:04, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Huh ?????--Dado 02:12, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Dado

May I note that you seem the ideal person to illustrate this term, as you find the very word Serbophobia itself offensive. Why don't those Serbs just shut up and admit they belong to an evil genocidal nation, that deserves everything it gets, eh? Why do they keep insisting that they have rights too? Those goddamn pesky Serbs... ;) :) --estavisti 04:06, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

May I suggest not to start a Balkan war here? I know, the topic is very heated, but please... Offensive or not, there is nothing surprising that many of these <ethnic>phobias are used on the both sides of barricades: one side is accused of a 'phobia, the other one retorts that it is a slander. mikka (t) 04:12, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree, let's just keep and expand the article. --estavisti 04:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

So are you acusing me of racism if I am asking for author to present some evidence. It is quite remarkable how fast you go the full circle from implying Serbophobia as something Serbs should defend themselves from and than going into offense by acussing random people (who you know nothing about) of Serbophobia. --Dado 04:21, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Dear Dado, Serbophobia exists and very much (as for Croats, it is also combined with savage anti-Semitism) - and Jasenovac and Ustase can provide a definite proof for this. If you are blind it is your own problem. Yes Serbs are quite vengeful, but it wasn't them who started the bloodshed in Balkans. As for your native country, Bosnia, you can take the SS Hanjar division as a proof (created by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, a great buddy of Hitler, BTW). I removed POV section marking since you do not refer to the article CONTENTS as POV, but to the TERM ITSELF as POV. And this is not correct. The contents are not biased, and the term is perfectly legitimate, as much as anti-Semitism, Armenophobia or Anglophobia. Remark: I am a pro-Serbian Israeli Jew born in ex-USSR. --Aleverde 15:57, 12 December 2005 (UTC+2)

estavisti, you are complitely right. Why don't those Serbs just shut up and admit they belong to an evil genocidal nation, that deserves everything it gets, eh? Why do they keep insisting that they have rights too? Those goddamn pesky Serbs... ;) :) --Milan Tešovic 21:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Not Notable / Neologism

Mikka, I suggest you temper your abrasive and offensive tone of voice. It buys you nothing here. I still claim that the term is not notable and most likely a neologism. It yields 430 Google hits many of which are duplicates of a WSJ article and many more of which are used on balkan related fora rather than on scholarly sites. I do find a single reference from around the WW1 period in a short bio of Franz Conrad von Hotzendorff but as you can see for yourself it doesn't claim that he used the word himself; it more than likely was introduced by the bio writer. If you compare it with terms such as Russophobia (29.000 hits) or Sinophobia (14.400) the statistical (in)significance becomes even more obvious. Since the term bears so little recognition, its inclusion in Misplaced Pages is not justified IMHO other than to drive a self-victimizing POV. Chelman 09:46, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Consider use of alternative terms and use in other languages:

• Serbophobia: 437
• "Anti-serbism": 137
• Serbophobie: 156 (French)
• "anti-serbisme": 34
• srbofobija OR србофобија: 720

Also, you are wrong when you say that many of the mentions are duplicates of WSJ article. Searching for a phrase from the article ("If the Albanians can make promises to protect Serb shrines") gives only 20 hits, and of those some are opinions about the article which present a quote from it. 20 of 430 is hardly many.

20 of 430 is nearly 5% This is statistically significant. Chelman 23:21, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Compare also real danger of Russians and Serbs. For examle, per Misplaced Pages articles, GDP of Serbia and Montenegro is $25.98 billion, while GDP of Russia is $1.408 trillion, which is 54 times more (GDP is relevant because a portion of it is used to finance the army; if Serbia and Montenegro and Russia dedicate same share of their GDP to the army, Russia could have an army that is 54 times stronger). Now, if you multiply 437 with 54, you arrive at 23,598, which is comparable to number of mentions of Russophobia.

Nice bit od number juggling there...but it's irrelevant. What does the size of the army and the countries GDP have to do with the existence of a disputed term. Zip. Chelman 23:21, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

As I said, because it compares real danger of Serbs with perceived danger of Serbs. Nikola 07:32, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

And lastly, I don't think that Mikkalai's tone could be described as "abrasive and offensive". Nikola 09:57, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

"self-victimizing POV": You are kidding. I am not Serb and never seen an alive Serb. And I dance Salsa with a Croat girl who says that both Serbs and Croats are idiots, that's why she lives in America now. mikka (t) 07:01, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Sources

Can somebody provide any source for definition of "Serbophobia"? As you all know :) Misplaced Pages doesn't accept original research. Otherwise, the article belongs to Wiktionary, at the best. Just because it was used, doesn't make it a worthy topic, so please provide some sources for the definition. --dcabrilo 14:41, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

The definition is a tautology. It would be silly to quote a reference here. But if you reaaly insist, google is your friend: "Serbophobia – the notion that the Serbs as a whole were guilty of events in the Balkans over the past decade, and that Milosevic merely personified the entire nation." One may easily find more. Also, please read carefully wikipedia:Original research. Reporing facts is not Original Research. Explanations and theories are. mikka (t) 06:51, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

This would make more sense. The word definately exists but simply does not warrant an inclusion in an encyclopedia. Chelman 23:24, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Why? Nikola 09:24, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Neologism

Well, since neologisms are not allowed on Misplaced Pages, there should be speedy deletion of Islamophobia, for example. I believe explaining the meaning of the word in a different way can solve the problem.

Interesting analogy. I wonder why you selected Islamophobia.--Dado 00:37, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Dado, I didn't select Islamophobia for any specific reason, except that it's about an anti-ethnic term and it's a neologism, according to the article itself. Only that. I could have mentioned "Brazilianphobia"... if there was an article with this name! (I've just found out that there's a Lusophobia article. But this was a feeling very common in the nineteenth century. Nowadays, it's almost forgotten. ;-) (Milena 09:57, 22 December 2005 (UTC))

Hope I can help somehow.

Milena 16:10, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

• When I arrived from work, I thought of something: maybe re-writing the article and merging into Yugoslav wars could be a good idea, since the term appears to be from the time of those wars.

Milena 21:35, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

And this maybe the answer to my question above as much of the Islamophobia could be associated with these wars as well. Could it be that the reason for this article was to counter some of the bad rap Serbs got during Yugoslav wars, as a tool of appologists and to portray Serbs as victims of phobia. Just a thought.

I would still prefer to see some scientific evidence on this matter rather than to shove it into a muddle of Yugoslav Wars. --Dado 00:37, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Dado, I suggested merging it into the article about the Yugoslav wars just noting that, here in Brazil, I could see good examples of the bad repercussion of those wars on the image of the few Serbian immigrants (and their families). Only that. It seems you misunderstood me, I'm really sorry... Milena 21:35, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I found a reference in book Communication in Eastern Europe: The Role of History, Culture, and Media in Contemporary Conflicts, itself published in 1995, by Fred L. Casmir (who is Professor of Communication, Coordinator International Studies Major Division of Communication, and International Studies major at Pepperdine University, Malibu, CA): Furthering this incipient nation-fever was the extraordinary memorandum issued to the public in 1986 by the prestigious Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences, condemning the perceived presence of "Serbophobia" in the central government of Yugoslavia. Is a word still a neologism after 20 years of use? Nikola 04:01, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Look at List of anti-ethnic terms. What not include other there? HolyRomanEmperor 13:56, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Article is about term found in newspapers and books. You don`t like it? So do I. But this term is still in use. --JustUser 22:39, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't like the article. But it is bound to improve (one way or another). By the way; if it deals just with the term (the actual word) it belongs to the wikidictionary, not encyclopedia. HolyRomanEmperor 12:09, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

HolyRomanEmperor, I think you gave two good ideas, including it in the List of anti-ethnic terms and moving to wiktionary could be a solution. Milena 10:10, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Articles for Deletion debate

This article survived an Articles for Deletion debate. The discussion can be found here. -Doc 18:40, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Serbia on trial

A while above the following phrase:

Furthermore the title refers to Serbia Is on Trial. which could be interpreted as Serbia as institution is on trial and not Serbs as people. Last time I checked Serbia is country of many nations. If there are no further objections I will remove this sentance. --Dado 06:11, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

You may interpret as you wish, but those who are offended intrepret it quite differently. Also, you are omitting (intentionally or not) two very short words that seriously change the meaning: it is not "Serbia on Trial", but "all of Serbia is on Trial". Also, rather than "interpreting" and guessing, I would strongly suggest to read the aricle. mikka (t) 05:14, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Here is a quotation for lazy ones of you:

"A criminal trial in Belgrade for embezzlement or even murder would not expose the ways in which thousands of Serbs were involved in and profited from war crimes committed by Milosevic's government. During the Bosnian war, for instance, hundreds of semitrailer truckloads of stolen goods were transported out of Bosnia and into Serbia. "

So the journalist knew what he was doing: he fully intentionally equated a dictator and a bunch of thugs (the ones which may be found during any war to suck blood the others shed) with "all of Serbia". mikka (t) 05:25, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

The "dictator" (which was democratically elected may I remind) was running the country. He was a legal representative of the country and as a result had to bear the responsibilities and consequences of his actions. Because of his high leadership position it is logical that the entire nation would be affected by his decision, as they were with economic sanctions. Still the author of the article did not specifically point nor implied (in a secion that you pasted) that he refers to the Serbs as a nation. If he had stated anywhere in the article Milosevic Is Accused, but All of Serbs are on Trial than you may have a point. Currently it is a streach to use this as an example and a poor analysis of the op-ed piece.

Even if I add the two words "all of Serbia is on trial" this could refer to all of citizens of Serbia which includes other ethnic groups as well. However, I still don't find that the author's intent was to pin the blame on any nation, but a country. I do not have the entire article to read and this is a second time that you are resorting to diminutive phrases (for lazy ones of you) towards others. As I have pointed out to Pokrajac, since the word in itself is disputed and highly controversial political accusation this article will go nowehere as long as it attempts to pin the blame for Serbophobia to someone especially more contemporary sources such as NY Times. --Dado 16:17, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

• "diminutive" That's exactly why I am resorting to a diminutive phrase: "you don't have the entire article", yet you are insisting on judging its intentions. mikka (t) 19:48, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
• "I still don't find": Once again: did you read the article or not? Or shall I go to the librarly, make a photocopy and mail it to you? mikka (t) 19:48, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Did you provide the link to the article? I thought I was clear. I did not read the article because you have not provided the link. My thoughts are based on the information that you provided here. --Dado 02:54, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
• The article does not "pin the blame" onto anybody. It merely lists facts. And the fact is that the article title was interpreted as an example of serbophobia in Serbian press. mikka (t) 19:48, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
  • This is new information. If you can prove that it was interpreted by the Serbian press in that way than we may be able to work-out a solution.--Dado 02:54, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

A few questions

I don't want to talk about disputed content, just about something which I don't understand in diff between two versions: --millosh (talk (sr:)) 21:26, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

1. In the Albanian source something with abbervation "AIM" is mentioned. AIM means a lot of things; may someone specify it (or remove the internal link)? --millosh (talk (sr:)) 21:26, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
2. I think that User:Macedonian removed a link to the article in Macedonian. As I think, the sense of the links is not making examples of Serbophobia, but making examples of mentioning the term (or similar terms), I think that it should be kept. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 21:26, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
3. I don't understand why some general links about/from Serbia exist inside of this article? Maybe some internal link to Serbs and/or to Serbia can be useful, but I think that those links are nonsense. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 21:26, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Diff

This one (last one), of course. --millosh (talk (sr:))

I am not sure about the photo of the knife... It is an example of extreme serbophobia, but I am not completely sure do this belong here. In other words, I don't know should it be here or not. Hm. Maybe some photo with more sense can stay here. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 20:37, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

But, I think that we can solve the paragraph: --millosh (talk (sr:)) 20:37, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

One edit: --millosh (talk (sr:)) 20:37, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Although the term was used rather sporadically in the past it is almost always considered to be misused in order to gain points on certain political agenda by appealing to emotions. Serbophobia is spread today among some Croats, Bosniaks and Kosovo's Albanians as a reaction of the alienation of Serbs during the wars with these people. This feeling made the environment in which many Serbs were expelled or they simply left their homes in Krajina in 1995 and in Kosovo in 1999.

Another edit: --millosh (talk (sr:)) 20:37, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Although the term was used rather sporadically in the past it is almost always considered to be misused in order to gain points on certain political agenda by appealing to emotions. The term is generally used today as a political tool to pin the blame on Croats, Bosniaks and Kosovo's Albanians as a reaction of the alienation of Serbs during the wars with these people.

I think that it is clear that both paragraphs have true statemants: Yes, a lot of Croats, Bosniaks and Albanians from Kosovo have anti-Serb(ian) feelings (which is the definition of serbophobia) 'and, yes, it is used as a political tool to blame (not only) Croats, Bosniaks and Albanians from Kosovo. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 20:37, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

So, my suggestion of the paragraph is (correct my English): --millosh (talk (sr:)) 20:37, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Although the term was used rather sporadically in the past it is almost always considered to be misused in order to gain points on certain political agenda by appealing to emotions.

As a behaviour, Serbophobia is spread today among some (but not only) Croats, Bosniaks and Kosovo's Albanians as a reaction of the alienation of Serbs during the wars with these people. This feeling made the environment in which many Serbs were expelled or they simply left their homes in Krajina in 1995 and in Kosovo in 1999.

As a political accusation, the term is generally used today as a political tool to pin the blame on Croats, Bosniaks and Kosovo's Albanians (but not only them) as a reaction of the alienation of Serbs during the wars with these people.

Does anyone has something against this proposal? --millosh (talk (sr:)) 20:37, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

You are starting with the premise that Serbophobia is a psychological condition as its name implies yet there is 0 evidence or proof that this can be considered as such so your starting premise is wrong. I thought that the rest of the article and prior discussion are clear about that and I will not go any further into it.

Quote: As a behaviour, Serbophobia is spread today among some (but not only) Croats, Bosniaks and Kosovo's Albanians as a reaction of the alienation of Serbs during the wars with these people. This feeling made the environment in which many Serbs were expelled or they simply left their homes in Krajina in 1995 and in Kosovo in 1999.

The article is about the political term "Serbophobia" as it is used in the political sense and as a subject of a debate. As such no one can actually "suffer" from serbophobia as your segment is implying. Any implications that someone is "suffering" from Serbophobia is at the same time a political acusation and nothing more. You even go a step further to state that the Serbophobia is "spread" as if it is a disiease. The last sentence is again an extension of the first as it reapeats that it is a "feeling" but it is even worse as it is ambigious and self defeating by stating some Serbs "simply left their homes". It would not pass even as a false theory. In its mildest form the whole segment is an example of personal analisys, something that is not acceptable on Misplaced Pages (not even to mention that it is potentially Misplaced Pages:Libel).

Regarding the image, I have repeatedly said that it is an appeal to emotions while it has nothing to do with the term itself. Some have even gone to claim a conection between first part of the name Serbo-sjek and Serbo-phobia which is ridiculous. The image has a lot more to do with facsist regime in NDH and Jasenovac concentration camp so it should be placed there. Using it here for political purposes is outright degrading. --Dado 22:32, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Agree about the image. It has nothing to do with the article. Milena 10:45, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

E, uopste mi nije to bilo na pameti. Rekoh "correct my English". Ocigledno je da "ponasanje" ima drugo primarno znacenje u engleskom. Ustanovilo se (kako mi se cini ranije) da se ne govori o psihickoj pojavi nego o drustvenoj. Ako si na to mislio. Preslozi sam u smislu etnicke netrpeljivosti, koja je fakt. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 23:09, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Drugim recima, to jeste i netrpeljivost prema jednom etnicitetu, a i koristi se kao politicka optuzba. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 23:09, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Ponovo greska. Ne radi se ni o drustvenoj ni psihickoj pojavi vec o politickoj optuzbi. Da bi pojam bio drustvena ili psihicka pojava ona mora biti naucno dokazana sto u ovom slucaju nije nikad uradjeno (niti vidim kako moze biti). Posto ovaj termin se inherentno odnosti na zadnje ratove i prvenstveno na rat u BiH mozda jedina i vjerovatno najbolja analiza psiholoskih posljedica rata i odnosa medju ljudima mozes naci u knjizi koju sam gore naveo :"Than they started shooting: Growing Up In Wartime Bosnia" by Lynne Jones (za pocetak) koja je mozda i jedina do sad napisana na temu psihologije i drustvene dinamike poslijeratnog perioda u BiH. Neznam da li trebam uopste napominjati da se Srbofobija nigdje i ne pominje.

Etnicka netrpeljivost je nesto sto se nemoze oznaciti ni kao "Srbofobija", "Hrvatofobija" ili "Bosnjakofobija" vec kao kompleksna kombinacija pobrkanih licnih i kolektivnih interesa. Udaranje pecata na tu dinamiku kao vrstu fobija je samo simplisticna politicka manipulacija kako bi se narod zaglupio i drzao pod kontrolom.

Na kraju bih savjetovao da ako se ova konverzacija mora produziti da se vratimo na engleski kako ne bi iskljucivali ostala potencijalna misljenja. --Dado 00:17, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Da, u pravu si sto se tice slike. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 23:19, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Nece se duziti. Shvatio sam da ne vredi pricati. Necu se vise baviti ovim clankom. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 09:59, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Please, why not writing in English??? Milena 10:45, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

(1) Communication for us is more easy then in English. (2) Sometime it is more easy to solve problem without others. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 11:29, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with both of your points but sometimes an extra voice doesn't hurt.--Dado 17:50, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

We didn't solve anything, so conversation can be continued in English. (Also, I don't want to work on this article anymore because I don't see how the problem can be solved.) --millosh (talk (sr:)) 11:29, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't see that there was anything to solve except the disputed content version that was being reverted and a picture (which we apparently did solve). Let me know if you have any issues with the version that I talked about. --Dado 17:50, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

To reverter

Why does the info I added about racial slurs keep getting reverted? If there is a word which is used exclusively as a racial slur for Serbs, that seems like extremely relevent information to this article.

because the reverter wants to prove that there is no hatred towards Serbs and that they are the only negative side in the 1991-1999 Balkan wars.--TheFEARgod 16:36, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

or because racial slurs have nothing to do with serbophobia which is defined as a political acusation and (for the hundreth time) not as a phobia in a pscychological sense as the name is trying to imply or as the above user is agressivelly pushing. For a condition to be accepted as a phobia one needs to have scientific proof and it is where this term (serbophobia) fails misserably. The burden of proof has made this article acceptable only if it refers to a political accusation.

Racial slurs have alot more to to with dehumanisation of a particular ethnic group or race and are related to nationalism and in a severe case to fascist doctrine. Racial slurs used for dehumanisation are also found in Eight Stages of Genocide.

I suggest you to read the discussion above. --Dado 01:33, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

No one is claiming it is a psychological condition, you assumed that simply because it has phobia in its name. It is simply a dislike of Serbs, nothing more nothing less. Russophobia is a universally accepted term used to describe dislike of Russians, yet no one claims that's a psychologicla condition. Serbophobia is a dislike of Serbs and if there is an ethnic slur used for Serbs that needs to be mentioned in this article.

I am not claiming that it is phobia. That is in fact my point. The article starts with the premise that the term is an acusation. However your first segments that you have added is deceptively implying that it is in fact a condition (phobia), as something that is found among some group etc etc.. Perhaps we can resolve it this way

Another example of the term being used as an acusation is the interpretation of the word shkija as Serbophobic, which in the Albanian language is a derogatory word for Serbs used by Albanians and as similar to how nigger is used by white supremacists in the USA.

Second segment is completely wrong and short of completely deleting it I don't see a fix. For now I am reverting the segment that you have deleted and we can add the one above if you agree.--Dado 04:32, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Regarding latest version proposed by anonymous user, following item is possibly acceptable:

The term is used in a non-clinical sense. While the term has entered mainstream usage in Serbian, its use in the English language has been limited and it does not appear in major English dictionaries.

The section that was added "Examples of Serbophobia" is a fairy tale and completely unsubstantiated. Section "Criticism" is just badly written as if only Bosniaks, Croats and Albanians think that Serbophobia does not exist. Let me remind that most of the accusations of Serbophobia were directed towards western world.--Dado 20:12, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

The section clearly says: Some people, mostly Croats, Bosniaks, and Kosovar Albanians. It is complete opposite of what you say it says. Nikola 13:35, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

We can add mostly to this version

The term is generally used today as a political tool to pin the blame mostly on Croats, Bosniaks and Kosovo's Albanians as a reaction of the alienation of Serbs during the wars with these people. --Dado 16:00, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

What exactly is your gripe with the current revision? It even has a criticism section to provide the other pov. What is not npov about it?

I think I have explained it at least 5 times above. Read it. I have also proposed 3 other versions but no one seams to listen here. Your continued ingnoring of other's views is quickly turning this article into vandalism.--Dado 18:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

You haven't explained anything. The part that says "the term is generally used as a political tool to pin the blame on Croats/Muslims/Albanians" is completely untrue and has no place in the article. Imagine if someone put such a claim in the anti-semitism article. Doctor Robotnik 18:17, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

You have not read a thing I wrote and you are arrogantly ignoring arguements. There is 0 evidence that this term can be considered in a phobic sense and that is what current version is suggesting especially in first section and in examples and criticism sections. There is 0 analysis done on this subject in the field of psychology. Only place where this term is used is in politics and that is where most of the sources are based. Your reference to anti semitism makes no sense at all. This article has passed AfD voting on a premise that the article can be written only as defining political accusation. Otherwise we are dealing here with neologism and original research niether of which are permited on Misplaced Pages and which could justify a complete deletion of this article. --Dado 23:53, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Dado, since this article has been written, you are doing nothing but reverting it. You add nothing to the discussion and are not providing any arguments. There is 0 evidence that this term can be considered in a phobic sense - the article does not say it does, anywhere; to the contraty, it clearly says that the term is used in a non-clinical sense. On the other hand your version says that Serbophobia is a political accusation of hatred towards Serbs, which is completely not true. The term is not neologism, being 20 years old, and the article doesn't have original research. So I am reverting to the other version. Nikola 12:46, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Since this article has been written it has been a playground of serbian nationalist trying to sell the notion that Serbophobia is something that Bosniaks, Croats and Albanians are suffering from which would somehow explain why there was a war in Bosnia or in Kosovo. It is an insulting insunuation and it borders Personal attack and libel. You have quoted one sentence from your version that is not actually disputed and it can be found in both versions so what you are obviously trying to do is to divert the issue that is obvious in sections "Examples" and "Criticism". Other than stating it is not true, which is your extent of the argument, what other proof do you have that is nothing more than a political acusation. The term can be a neologism if you are defining it differently from what it is. I have provided plenty arguments and I have a feeling that I am leading a monologue on this discussion page as everyone else see's this article as a battlefield. --Dado 15:32, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I believe that it is upon you to prove that Serbophobia is a political accusation of hatred towards Serbs. Serbophobia is hatred towards Serbs, period. Whether some people are unjustifiedly accused of hating Serbs when they really don't is another matter entirely. Nikola 09:39, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

An it is up to you to prove that I am not an alien reporting from another planet while impersonating an earthling. How is it that when you make a dubious statement I have to prove it is not true. Only sources provided on this article are of a political nature --Dado 17:28, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Protected

The article is now protected. Please find a way to gain consensus on how to proceed, and when you are ready, place a request for unprotection at WP:RFPP. If you need assistance with the dispute, please let me know. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 02:51, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest you look at these examples, on how to write a concise, NPOV article that exlplains the term:

• Japanophobia - fear or hatred of the Japanese.
• Judeophobia - fear or hatred of Jews.
• Lusophobia - dislike of the Portuguese

≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:19, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

If the subject needs to be expanded, it would rather have an article on Serbian ressentiment, in which these political views can be explored and described. We can then merge any tidbits about the use of the term "Serbophobia" by Serbian nationalists and others. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:26, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Unprotected

Protected ages ago, no ongoing discussion. Time to edit. --Tony Sidaway 03:09, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

New edits

One of the most known consequences of Serbophobia is a denial of genocide and other war crimes commited over Serbs in Bosnia (1992-1995) and Croatia (1995). Using the Srebrenica massacre and other proofen and non-proofen war crimes media have created an illusion that the Serbs have started those wars, are the aggresors and the only guilty ones.

Says who? Provide proof and sources. This may be the worst kind of denial of genocide that took place in Srebrenica that I don't know where to begin --Dado 03:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Since the war in Bosnia Bosnian muslims call themselfs Bosniaks so they could convince the world that they are only domestic people of Bosnia. This has created the illusion that Serbs are invading the Bosnia (since Serbia is a neighbour country).

Says who? Provide proof and sources? Beside being a total nonsense it stipulates that most of the world is stupid enough to be fooled by Bosniaks into an illusion?--Dado 03:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I will also add here some comments about the previous talk since it would be stupid to add up there. --Milan Tešovic 00:05, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

New York Times putting «all of Serbia in trial» is not the discusion. Many saw the trial, not just Milosevics, but all trials in Hague as a judging «all of Serbia». One view is that NYTs headline only suggested that Serbophobia does exist. Still don't forget that this article is just an example, Serbophobia and anti-Serbism (my opinion is that those are two different things) exist in all European and North American countries, and in most of the world (among people, press, politicians and other). --Milan Tešovic 00:05, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Your logic of how you reach a conclusion that something is Serbophobia is an absolute absurdity. An NY Times article may have a poor title but it proves nothing. See above discussions for more information --Dado 03:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Serbophobia in the North America and Europe had high influence on the outcome of Kosovo war in 1999. --Milan Tešovic 00:05, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Says who? Provide sources and proof.--Dado 03:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Dado sad: Prior to the invation of Iraq about 600 Arabs were arrested in USA as suspects of terrorism. They were held for varied lengths of time (some as long as 3 months) only to have one (1) person charged for violations of immigration law and others released. You are apsolutely right. After 9/11 there was a lot of prejustice toward Arabs. But since the reason was terrorism, there wasn't as much «all of Arabs» prejustice. Still Serbs are no more guilty (even less) then muslims and Croats for the war and war crimes, but from palestina to Afganistan muslims are knowen over terrorism (in Iraq they even terrorise their own people for supporting the goverment controled by the States). --Milan Tešovic 00:05, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

What a hell are you talking about. What does any of this has to do with your point. --Dado 03:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

All of Serbia could include of all Republic of Serbia but it doesn't. It includes of of the Serbs as a nation. It's clear what it means, but you can see it differently, still you should keep that one for yourself, and not publish that thought on Misplaced Pages. --Milan Tešovic 00:05, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I should point out that victimization of Serbs was a well established and documented political doctrine used by the Serbian politician and media in early 90's to cause a rise among Serbs. This victimization began with celebration of 400 year old Battle of Kosovo (where Serbs were defeated by Turks) and ended with identifying Bosniaks as Turks who should be taken revenge on. Serbophobia is just another kind of the same political doctrine yet a very weak one given the obviousness that it serves only to appeal to emotions. To those dim witted it serves as a "scientific" justification of propaganda they have been fed by the politicians. This is evident that in almost 6 months since this article was first created there was 0 scientific proof presented and more serious users like Milosh have given up on this article because it is obviously such a lost cause. --Dado 03:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

The neutral version written by me, Nikola Smolenski, Miloš and also a part written by Dado should remain and any act of deleting parts should be regarded as vandalism.--TheFEARgod 16:06, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Your and Nikola's version is not neutral. Milosh has not contributed to the article as you are claiming it other than made suggestions on this discussion page so it is unlear if he would support your view. I do not subscribe to this version and you now it. You don't have the authority to decide what is vandalism contrary to the rules. --Dado 16:20, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

also, persons like Demicx who have not contributed to WRITING in this article shuold not revert any content written by other people.--TheFEARgod 16:07, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Also you do not have the authority to prevent and bully users from expressing their view even in a way where they are simply deciding which version is more appropriate for this subject. --Dado 16:20, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Milant, I have been very clear about my position so I would aks you not to simplify it in your justification for pushing agenda that are insulting accusation and outright lies. I have asked repeatedly for you and others to present sources for your claims. The entire section "Examples of Serbophobia" is so bad that I don't see a fix to it other than to remove it completely. Again, this article has passed the Deletion only on the ground that the term can be defined as the political accusation. If you do not stop I will put this article once again for deletion as it is obviously a flame bait and libel risk. --Dado 18:35, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

AfD

I was unaware, whern I first tagged this for AfD, that it had already managed to pass one — the notification of the result was non-standard and buried half-way down the Talk page. It still seem to me that the article's main, if not only, real purpose is to act as a lightning rod for political opinions, hence the interminable edit-warring; therefore, I'm going through with the second AfD. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:04, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense

This article is nonsense and its aimed to promote a certain political agenda. None hates Serbs as such. There are many people who consider the policies of Serbia and the beliefs of the Serbian elite as outdated and criminal. But that doesn't have to do with Serbs as a people or an ethnic group. I personally think that Serbian history books glorify criminals and crime. Serbian expanssionism is based on anti-humane values. But I don't hate nor fear Serbs as people. Thinking that Hitler was a criminal and that his policies were criminal doesn't one make a 'Germanophobe.' I fully agree tht this article needs to be deleted.

Maybe if you were a serb travelling abroad, going thru different customs, waiting for more than a minute while officers scrutinize your passport and visa and look at you in a certain way (while for others it takes few seconds and no strange looks), maybe if you've been in serbian skin, you would know that this article is not a total nonsense, but there is some thruth to it. Ask serbians how easily they get visas to travel to foreign countries. Why is that the case? Lakinekaki 19:33, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Wonderful. The only problem being that this article doesn't even attempt to mention that. Live Forever 19:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Attention!! important parts of the text are getting lost! example, the sentence with the word shkija oftenly disappears! check the page history.--TheFEARgod 15:20, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

P.S. do not delete the picture. It portraits an act of pure serbophobia (killing of Serbs in NDH -equal to Judeophobic sentiment in Germany)--TheFEARgod 15:20, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes and you are removing a large part of important texts and adding unsubstantiated and unsourced garbage. Picture has nothing to do with the term. It is horrific, it is appaling but it is also an appeal to emotions. Most of all it is what has been proven as fascism and nationalism during NDH. You cannot attribute it to a term Serbophobia when the term or at least the definition of the term itself is disputed. --Dado 16:44, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

As I don't speak Serbian, is the Serbian version biased? --Latinus 16:59, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is. --Dado 17:52, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Dado, you're simply provoking and lying now. No need to stoop that low... The Serbian article simply says: Serbophobia is a feeling of animosity or hatred towards Serbs or Serbia. If you think that's biased, then you really are a piece of work. Your entire involvement with this article has been obstructive, and - ironically - Serbophobic. Now of course, you're going to say that I'm a Serbian nationalist and that you're being unfairly accused blah blah blah. --estavisti 18:09, 26 March 2006 (UTC)