Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 04:06, 17 October 2011

Hello, Lvhis! Welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions to this 💕. If you decide that you need help, check out Getting Help below, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by using four tildes (~~~~) or by clicking if shown; this will automatically produce your username and the date. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! R'n'B (call me Russ) 17:58, 22 June 2010 (UTC) Getting started A tutorial • Our five pillars • Getting mentored How to: Edit a page • Upload and use images • Create your first article Intuitive guide to Misplaced Pages • Article Creation Wizard Getting help Frequently asked questions • Tips Where to ask questions or make comments Request administrator attention Help desk: A Wiki Styled page to ask questions on Help directory: A comprehensive list-style help contents page Policies and guidelines Neutral point of view • No original research Verifiability • Reliable sources • Citing sources What Misplaced Pages is not • Biographies of living persons List of policies • Three-revert rule • Sock puppetry Copyrights • Policy for non-free content • Image use policy External links • Spam • Vandalism • List of guidelines Deletion policy • Conflict of interest • Notability The community Build consensus • Resolve disputes Assume good faith • Civility • Etiquette No personal attacks • No legal threats Community portal • Village pump Signpost • IRC channels • Mailing lists Writing articles Be bold in editing • Develop an article The perfect article • Simplified manual of style Stubs • Categories • Disambiguation Peer review • Featured content Miscellaneous User pages • Talk pages Awards a registered contributor can achieve and award Clean up: General • Spam • Vandalism Join a WikiProject • Translation Useful templates • Tools • User scripts

Page titles

Hi, and thank you for your contributions to Misplaced Pages. It appears that you recently tried to give Guangzhou Peasant Movement Institute a different title by copying its content and pasting either the same content, or an edited version of it, into Peasant Movement Training Institute at Guangzhou. This is known as a "cut and paste move", and it is undesirable because it splits the page history, which is needed for attribution and various other purposes. Instead, the software used by Misplaced Pages has a feature that allows pages to be moved to a new title together with their edit history.

In most cases, once your account is four days old and has ten edits, you should be able to move an article yourself using the "Move" tab at the top of the page. This both preserves the page history intact and automatically creates a redirect from the old title to the new. If you cannot perform a particular page move yourself this way (e.g. because a page already exists at the target title), please follow the instructions at requested moves to have it moved by someone else. Also, if there are any other pages that you moved by copying and pasting, even if it was a long time ago, please list them at Misplaced Pages:Cut and paste move repair holding pen. Thank you. R'n'B (call me Russ) 17:58, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Diaoyu Islands

Hi,

Since you appear interested in the naming issue, I will give you a few things to think about:

• The article was originally named under something else (Pinnacle Islands?). It was moved to Senkaku Islands some 4-6 years ago by someone through the reasoning of "Japanese controlling the islands". Even though, this reasoning later didn't turn out too correct, subsequent attempts at changing the name were met with failure mostly due to POV-pushing. I think this one here has some particularly evident POV-pushing. If you read carefully, it is as if some would just vote OPPOSE for any convenient reason (and in this case, the support reason was refuted a few threads later but subsequent calls for re-vote were again dismissed). Personally, I believe the original move should be undone simply because its reasoning did not hold. However, it was opposed because some decided that since the name stayed that long, it should stay.
• The degree of Japanese control is disputable, since Chinese vessels had made regular visits to the surrounding water without permission and the Chinese government openly disregarded warnings from Japan.
• A "Senkaku/Diaoyu" dual name was proposed but was met with considerable resistance. One of the primary objections was that people would fight over "Diaoyu/Senkaku" vs. "Senkaku/Diaoyu". Personally, I think it's a silly reason because even though there may still be a conflict, the overall degree of WP:NPOV violation would be lessened, but oh well. The other primary objection was that "Senkaku/Diaoyu" dual names were rarely used in practice. Again, I consider this to be silly (perhaps to the point of wiki-lawyering), because most literature would simply use mention both names (i.e. Senkaku Islands or Diaoyu Islands) instead of creating some eccentric linguistic construct like that.
• There is a lot of debate regarding the relative frequency between Diaoyu and Senkaku Island term usage. Editors from both sides of the opinion had come up with statistics favourable to their argument and my caution to you is that these data can easily be sampled and manipulated in anyway to portray any outcome if the term frequencies of both Diaoyu and Senkaku are close enough in practice. Another cautionary is date. Older documents tend to use "Diaoyu" less because of less publicity. Articles of the past 2 years tend to use both names approximately equally. There are arguments about some maps (i.e. National Geographic and CIA Factbook) using Senkaku Islands exclusively, however, most of the main stream media also use both names. Lastly, the Anglosphere is large and is not exclusive to the U.S. As a result, any data obtained from any sampling is only a crude approximation of the real frequencies (something a lot of people seem to not understand).

Other advice:

• Do not expect every editor's first objective is to WP:NPOV. My experience (and that of others before me) suggest this is an uphill battle regardless of how strong you think your position is.
• Be careful with what you say. Criticisms and lack of good faith assumption can potentially be twisted into some very gross WP violations through nifty use of rhetorics and wiki-lawyering. At least one editor in this page is a master of rhetorics. Bobthefish2 (talk) 04:22, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

POV tag

Hello. Before you add the tag again, can you please use the article talk page. I don't understand what it is you are hoping to achieve by having the tag there. As I am trying to explain, the tag is not a form of lodging an official protest. It is if you want to draw attention to a problem. You have drawn attention to it and we are discussing it, so there is no need for the tag.

Please read the article on NPOV disputes. You will see that it clearly states Tags should be added as a last resort. How is this the last resort? As I've mentioned, we're talking about the matter. There is nothing that will be achieved by having the tag.

If you want other views, you need to approach people on the various noticeboards on Misplaced Pages. Tagging the article won't get anyone who doesn't watch the page to come along. Regards, John Smith's (talk) 18:59, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Hello again. I've left what I hope is a helpful message on the article talk page. John Smith's (talk) 19:52, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for asking again, but I'm not following your reasoning for having the tag. If you could let me know what you're trying to achieve by having the tag, I might understand why the article needs it. John Smith's (talk) 21:04, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

It was a long standing issue and the tag was there when I first joined the page (if my memory serves). The fact that someone sneaked in an edit to remove it at some point doesn't mean it doesn't deserve to be there.

Please don't start an edit-war over this. Bobthefish2 (talk) 19:11, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Locking of Diaoyu page

You shouldn't be troubled by the locking of Senkaku Islands, since it has nothing to do with your objective in resolving the naming dispute. Even if the page is not locked, I highly doubt any of your edits would've gotten through. In the end, the far majority of action will take place in talk pages, RfC's, and other discussion media.

My experience also tells me that the locking of the page is also probably not in the interest of certain parties. I am sure you know what I am referring to. It's too bad I can't really be frank with my words. Bobthefish2 (talk) 22:44, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

By the way, you should take a look at this thread. If others decide to play wiki-lawyer with this, then I think I might have to open an RfC just for that. Bobthefish2 (talk) 06:42, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

RFC/U on Tenmei

As an editor who has interacted with User:Tenmei on the Senkaku Islands pages, I would like to inform you that I have filed a Request for comment on user conduct of Tenmei. You may read that RFC/U at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Tenmei, and are welcome to comment on it as explained at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/User conduct/Guidance2 once it has been certified. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:26, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the message. I have not had a chance interacting with this user yet, and not been familiar with the relevant edit history this user involved on that page or those pages. While I perhaps would like to take a look at this when I have time. It is really a pain or headache when users have spent a lot time to deal such kid of things than to peacefully make editions or contributions on Misplaced Pages. BTW, I am preparing to have a update on my "Edit Request" in Talk:Senkaku Islands and may include your recent thought on that {NPOV-title} template.--Lvhis (talk) 05:42, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks; I wasn't sure if any of your recent contact with that page was with Tenmei, and I was just trying to be fair about inviting everyone who I thought might have interacted with xem. As for the Senkaku Islands, what I would really like to do, and have wanted to do for a while, is to enter mediation for that article plus Senkaku Islands dispute. I believe that because that the real world issues that surround the islands, along with the long history of dispute there, could really benefit from mediation. I think that it would be very helpful if we had an outside, independent mediator to help us work through our multiple difficulties, and hopefully be able to achieve some lasting success. I actually believe that, if we did so, we could put, at a minimum, the naming issue behind us eventually but firmly, along with dealing with other perpetually difficult problems on the other article (we're so bogged down in small details that the big picture is a big mess). Unfortunately, one editor refused mediation, so we couldn't go forward with that. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:24, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

New messages

Hello. You have a new message at Talk:Senkaku Islands's talk page. Message added 02:33, 12 May 2011 (UTC).

Senkaku dispute

I agree, the title is not NPOV, since the Liancourt Rocks article isn't called Dokdo, despite Koreans controlling the island. It is using a less common, but neutral Franco-English name (Le Liancourt) for the name, for neutral purposes since it's a highly contested island between Korea and Japan.Phead128 (talk) 20:28, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Since you are the main driver for the naming issue, I'd remind you that the "anti" faction has a tendency of making up rules and heuristics on the fly (i.e. Google searches are unreliable, dual names are not allowed, we should follow the standards of this encyclopedia that only uses the Japanese name, etc, etc, etc). After glancing through a few of the recent posts about the topic, this is what I notice. Since this type of issue does not commonly arise in Misplaced Pages, be sure not to assume the other parties are experts and authorities on the matter. And by the way, the "guideline" pages they cited can be edited by anyone and has been subjected to notable changes in the past without consultation - don't treat them as law. Bobthefish2 (talk) 02:32, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

All guidelines, policies, and other "rules" on Misplaced Pages are editable by the community. If you disagree with one, you're welcome to go to that page and either change it directly or (as usually safer) start a discussion on the talk page about changing it. For example, if you go to WT:BLP, you'll see several ongoing discussions about changing the rules about biographies of living people. Sometimes, when changes are large and have big impacts, we have big, advertised community discussions (we just had one proposing a change that wouldn't let people create new articles until they are autoconfirmed). That's how wikipedia works. Bobthefish2 is right that you should always read any referenced guidelines (etc) carefully, as they are often complex, and even experienced editors make mistakes or fail to notice changes. But if a guideline says something, unless you know that point is currently under debate, it generally trumps any opinions about what should or should not be done. Ultimately, there is no law on Misplaced Pages; the closest things are the WP:Five Pillars, and precedent (although both of those are themselves liable to change over time). Qwyrxian (talk) 03:19, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Hey, since you are part of the zh:Misplaced Pages, can you re-post the thread I copied and pasted to Project China to the relevant project page in the Chinese Misplaced Pages as well? Thanks. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 01:51, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Your points on the naming issue are very valid so keep up the good work. STSC (talk) 03:44, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I thought they are good and it appears 織田小姐 is not going to address replies to her posts after all. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 03:54, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Thank both of you! We have worked together very well in a nicer and nicer tacit way. I am just very busy that sometimes I cannot respond swiftly. I have done there as Bob asked while I think we can handle this case well enough even without extra outsiders. BTW, an idiom as the 1st words came out from my mind when I saw that 小姐 was referring the article in zh-wiki: 班門弄斧 (teach fish to swim). --Lvhis (talk) 00:58, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

織田小姐 sometimes does manage to give reasonable argument. Minus her vindictiveness, she isn't all that bad (at least compared to some other people). However, I do agree that they are 班門弄斧ing when they try to teach Chinese editors about Chinese usage. While there are indeed very good Chinese literature scholars among the Japanese people, I highly doubt any of these experts are are here. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 01:17, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Careful with Twinkle

Be careful when you use Twinkle for rollback--make sure you choose the correct one of the three rollback choices. In this edit, you mistakenly marked Phoenix7777's removal of the tag as vandalism, which it clearly is not (see WP:VANDAL). Instead, you should have used the generic Rollback or even Rollback (AGF), as I believe Phoenix7777 was editing in good faith when xe removed the tag. You may want to make a dummy edit to leave a summary indicating that your use of the term vandalism was in error. Calling edits vandalism when they are not is sometimes taken as a personal attack; I'm guessing you did mean this as an attack, but making mistakes like that can get you in trouble and lead to a loss of Twinkle privileges. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:20, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

• I compromised and changed it as "violation of WP:NPOV". Hope he will not remove it or roll back by violating WP:NPOV again. --Lvhis (talk) 00:51, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

The POV-title tag

Yes, the tag is put there for good reasons, and the administrators know it. STSC (talk) 01:48, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Whatever happened, the battle is not over yet. I have asked AGK to put back the tag, I hope he would do that. STSC (talk) 05:03, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Good! Thanks! --Lvhis (talk) 15:58, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Apparently, AGK would not do it. Please go head with the edit-protect template to add back the tag. STSC (talk) 04:37, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)I believe we were asked not to do anything with any of the related articles while MedCom is conferring privately--this presumably would include making edit-protected requests. At this point, I have intentionally not even responded to certain email queries, pending clear information from the committee or Feezo that we can do so. Of course, this is not an enforceable request, but it seems reasonable until MedCom decides if we're continuing with mediation, bumping this up to ArbCom, or whatever. Nothing is going to change either way if the tag is or isn't there for a few weeks. The problem is that if you put up the edit request, then the rest of us have to sound in whether or not there is consensus for the tag (since edit-protected requests can only be fulfilled when there is a clear consensus for the requested edit), and that would certainly break the Committee's request. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:21, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Replied at this user's talk page. --Lvhis (talk) 17:52, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks to the admin. he's rightly done so. STSC (talk) 00:51, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

The admin has put back the tag on the main article; this should be good enough, and I would not bother with the tag on the other sub-articles as it attracts vandalism from the mob. STSC (talk) 21:05, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I just pop in Wiki now and again depanding on my mood! You keep up the good work! STSC (talk) 19:10, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Monkey in silk suit is still a monkey

The silly argument of "Senkaku is English" cannot stand and you have presented your case very well. STSC (talk) 16:24, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

I think Lvhis will have to elaborate on that argument. I don't really understand it (sorry!). --Bobthefish2 (talk) 17:40, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Bob, I am too busy to input my whole thought on the argument in one time. Maybe the incontinuity causes some problem. I am still working on it. Thanks. --Lvhis (talk) 04:06, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Google

Hi, thanks for your message. This is my reply to your question: if you think Pinnacle Islands should be the title then you may endorse the "Not support using Google as a metric (to determine a widely acceptable name)". Please note this option dose not mean it dismisses Google for other uses. STSC (talk) 11:14, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

What's up?

It appears an ANI is started somewhere by John Smith. What's going on? --Bobthefish2 (talk) 02:51, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

By the way, I need a fact-checker to see whether or not what I said made sense . In the event that I was actually spewing non-sense, I'd like to be informed.

Your OPPORTUNITY to either oppose or support Qwyrxian in his bid to become an administrator...

Hi, I would like to hear what you have to say about Qwyrxian, and here's your chance to do that: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Qwyrxian. CHEERS! Diligent007 (talk) 16:39, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I made my “oppose” vote there couple days before already. Even though he has 100% chance to pass this vote, but in my mind he is not qualified to be an administrator for now. --Lvhis (talk) 18:26, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Japanophile

Since there was a lot of issues with Conflict of Interests and things like that, I had to come out early to make sure there wasn't an issue about that. Sure, I do a lot of the graphic work of Japanese symbols and made Japanese articles into Featured and Good articles and I am ja-3 (among other things, which I won't get into), but the main issue is that I was heavily involved in the Laincourt issue. I am a part of OTRS, the email team that deals with folks outside of Misplaced Pages and had to deal with the Laincourt issue there. Cannot say who, how or why, but I want to be very hands off with my admin tools and anything else when it comes to the issue about Senkaku. User:Zscout370 20:29, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your talk here. As for the Senkaku pages, actually some Japanese admin has been hands in with admin tools already for a while. I appreciate your self-restrict attitude, plus your proposal on Pinnacle. --Lvhis (talk) 00:57, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you kindly

	Thank you for your participation on my RfA
	Thank you for participating at my RfA. I know that you and I have great differences, but I sincerely hope we can continue to work together in ways that ultimately benefit the project. If you ever have concerns with my behavior as an admin, please let me know at any time. Qwyrxian (talk) 08:06, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I really appreciate your such kindly thanks very, very much given that I made my firm Oppose vote for your RfA. I hope that you, as a new admin, will realize that you start to bear more responsibilities and obligations to keep the wp better, specifically, in the pages both of us have been involved in so deep and so long (but I am much, much newer than you to these pages and the dispute on them). No one can be perfect but if you can realized what is the wiser way for you as an admin to help solve the dispute in a fair as well as the NPOV manner the wp emphasizes, you will get more closer to the point of "perfect". I raised a good example of admin in my Oppose comment there, here I'd like give you another good one, just please looked at a little bit up, the admin Zscout370 who is a Japanophile and with ja-3 (I guess you may have ja-1 as you ever mentioned something like this?) , and has made a lot of contributions in wp to Japanese related articles, and also ever involved in solving the dispute over naming the page Dokdo/Takeshima Islands. --Lvhis (talk) 17:13, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

BRD

You should confirm with Magog first about whether or not you are breaking the rules with your new edit. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 02:34, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I did. See here. Thanks. --Lvhis (talk) 03:20, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed that. Anyhow, a very philosophical person has just reverted all your efforts, claiming the deletion to be "pro-Misplaced Pages" . --Bobthefish2 (talk) 21:13, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Notice how he used the word "fraud" to describe his opponents. I've used the same word before to describe the nature of an information source, but its application on the efforts of an editor is not very nice. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 23:04, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

My dear friend Lvhis, the discussion is continued in . I originally wanted an independent 3rd party opinion, but the message was somehow tracked down before she replied. Elen's page is probably quite popular. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 06:12, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi Bob, I saw your input there following the link you provided, thanks. I also read Elen's explanations she input later. I may input my questions there when emptying my hands. --Lvhis (talk) 17:43, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

• Just make this memo note that the block or sanction enforced on my user account here on 20:31, 22 July 2011 (UTC) was a mistake, i.e. I should not have been blocked, per discussions there, and admin Elen of the Roads' clear opinion. --Lvhis (talk) 22:14, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I am sorry that you have to swallow that block log entry. Although this may seem infuriating, don't forget that Misplaced Pages is a hobby and not life. On the bright side, this gives us a pretty clear perspective on where certain involved administrators stand. I think it is safe to say that we can't rely on any of them for good judgment unless future evidence dictates otherwise.

Meanwhile, let me know whether or not you'd like to pursue this matter further. If you feel there is bad administrative conduct that needs to be addressed, you can count on my assistance. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 22:15, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank you Bob very much! Yes, I will take the bright side more. And also as admin Elen of the Roads said: If we think "there are many more instances of this happening, then the correct step is the RFC/U." In addition to seaching some possible, justice, and powerful help like what you did this time. Thanks again! --Lvhis (talk) 22:34, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Since Tenmei has declared a withdrawal of his participation in the SI articles, I believe it is within reason to undo his reverts. Suppose you would like to move on, do make sure you check with Magog the Ogre about whether or not this is an action that is permitted. Even though Elen of the Roads criticized Magog's use of BRD to establish control, she does not out-rank Magog in the Misplaced Pages hierarchy and thus cannot override his decisions. There is a small chance that a revert battle wouldn't take place since everyone should've been exhausted by now. :) --Bobthefish2 (talk) 08:56, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

I undid that edit within an hour of Tenmei making it (he didn't re-add, did he?). The other edits are minor things, like linking people's names (unless there was a mislink, I don't see why you'd undo them). Note that I actually felt (as I expressed on talk), that Tenmei's version was even worse than yours (Lvhis's) in its distance from neutrality. Qwyrxian (talk) 11:45, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

What's neutrality in this case :-)? There are a number of reverts by Tenmei that can be eliminated. I think it's within reason to remove them since he's out of the picture, although you should make it clear if that's a bannable offense. :) --Bobthefish2 (talk) 18:02, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

If Qwyrxian you still have questions on the version A --that is not just "Lvhis' version" because that is an outcome of the discussion before Tenmei's revert-- I am about to continue the interrupted discussion with you soon when I have time. --Lvhis (talk) 23:09, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm happy to continue that discussion, Lvhis. I'll have to look back at it, because I don't remember exactly where we were. Bob, if there are specific edits that Tenmei made that you think need to be reverted, please bring them up on the talk page. However, you cannot just go searching through the history looking from anything Tenmei changed and start taking it out, especially if it's been in the article for a long time; you still need a reason to remove stuff. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:36, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

I think I have a pretty good idea of what I am talking about :). I was referring to the reverts Tenmei made on Lvhis' recent BRD. That's not age-old, as far as I know. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 00:41, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh, those shouldn't be reverted, since I also object to Lvhis's edits, find them to be POV, and am discussing them currently on talk (or, will be, once I get back there). Qwyrxian (talk) 01:13, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Alrighty. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 02:12, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

I replied Qwyrxian there. His one is really POV. Let us discuss these on the right talk pages. --Lvhis (talk) 23:28, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

This type of comments should be avoided because it's not going to solve anything. Even though Elen disagreed with Qwyrxian and Magog, her opinion is not gospel and does not technically supersede their word. I think we've already sufficiently shown that there was an abuse of authority involved and that's about as far as we can go until... something happens. Meanwhile, I hope you remember an expression that talks about how certain things are not too late for gentlemen to do even if 10 years have elapsed. :) --Bobthefish2 (talk) 01:09, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

I input that one mainly due to he thinks only you and I recognized he did a violation, and reminded him there was some opinions from a third or fourth party. While anyway, thanks for your nice and helpful reminder. I won't use Elen's opinion as gospel and still respect Magog's authority almost as I did before. --Lvhis (talk) 20:51, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

By the way. I notice Feezo deleted all the discussions associated with the mediation. Is that part of policy? --Bobthefish2 (talk) 21:43, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Really, I was surprised! Why? There were lot evidence there. May we ask ArbCom? --Lvhis (talk) 02:05, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

All members of ArbCom are administrators, so they can view the deleted pages at any time. However, according to the privileged nature of mediation, the "Mediation Committee pledges to ... prevent such communications being used as evidence in ... arbitration." (emphasis added), so it is unlikely they will even look at the pages. – AJL 02:35, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

I see. So it is a kind of policy. Thank you for the information. --Lvhis (talk) 04:12, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

That sounds interesting. I suppose people can be as abusive as they want during a mediation without having to be concerned about getting penalized. However, what I don't really like is that a lot of our search results are in there and I would like them back. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 04:25, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Tenmei raised the same issue with me (though, as I'm sure you saw, not quite in the same tone). Once Arbitration is done (assuming they don't make the highly unlikely move of declaring a name by fiat), I will ask for Feezo's/the committee's permission to restore only those parts of the mediation that have specific data. I can go through and pick out the specific info at that time. Since clearly no work will occur on the article during arbitration, and to prevent any possibility that removed information may imply positive or negative things about various contributors, I won't pursue that until after arbitration is done. I remember JSTOR, WorldCat, and I think Library of Congress data, along with, of course, the multiple different and all questionable Google News/Web/Scholar data. There's probably more that I'm not thinking of, but I'm not going to worry about looking until later; handling the arbitration will be more than enough work on this topic for now. One nice thing with deletion is that it's never permanent (oversight comes closer, but can't be used in this case). Qwyrxian (talk) 01:27, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Arbitration on Senkaku Islands

You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests#Senkaku Islands and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—

• Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests#Requests for Arbitration;
• Misplaced Pages:Arbitration guide.

Thanks, Qwyrxian (talk) 10:05, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Notification of arbitration case opened

An arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Senkaku Islands. Evidence that you wish the Arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence sub-page, at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Senkaku Islands/Evidence. Please add your evidence by August 31, 2011, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can contribute to the case workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Senkaku Islands/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, Alexandr Dmitri (talk) 15:04, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Evidence

I glanced through your evidence. One thing I find is that it is not expressed in a very clear and comprehensible manner. As an insider, I am equipped with the relevant knowledge to know what you are talking about because I've glanced through some of your exchanges in the past. But I highly doubt third parties such as uninvolved arbitrators will be able to appreciate the meaning of your diffs if you arrange and present them in the current manner. For example, let's take a look at this paragraph:

Despite that several Reliable Sources have been provided particularly to avoid POV two from Japanese authors , , , , that there is a real English name for these Islands, and the current name for the wiki page is the Japanese name, User:Qwyrxian using Original Research insisted that the Japanese name is the real English name, and refused to provide reliable sources when requested for several times , , , , , , even he lacked the basic knowledge of the naming history of the names on the page in question , , . By this means he refused to reach consensus on an edited version that was a certain consensus supported by the reliable sources and an outcome from previous discussion ,,.

It appears your main purpose is to convey a few basic ideas: (1) You have RS' that say Pinnacle Islands is the real English name, (2) The subject of your complaint willfully ignored it, (3) The subject of your complaint persisted to use OR to say the Japanese name is the real English name, and (4) The subject of your complaint actually does not have an adequate amount of knowledge of the matter

If I were you, I would try to write this in a more organized manner so that the readers would have a vague idea of what the diffs are about before reading it. For example:

I've repeatedly shown that there is RS that confirmed "Pinnacle Islands" as the English name of this geographical entity and that the current article name ("Senkaku Islands") is a romanticized version of it. (Insert name here) repeatedly asserted that SI is the English name by citing community support but refused or was unable to provide RS to justify his position (ASIDE: Cite his posts and not your's because you are critiquing his reasoning). (Insert name here) also demonstrated that he did not possess a substantial background in the historical etymology of this geographical entity (ASIDE: 16 seems to be identical to 15). And again, you should be citing his posts and not someone else's)... (Another ASIDE: I don't get the part where is used and I doubt third parties will spend the time to actually try to understand the point as well. You should clarify it if you want it to be read and understood)

In addition, you may find it helpful to further reinforce your position by citing examples of possible tendentious editing committed by the subject of your complaint. For example, you can cite how the literature searches done on LoC, JSTOR, Google Scholar, WorldCat, etc, etc, etc were all against the current status quo and how they were repeatedly dismissed as unreliable Google searches even though they were repositories of reliable sources. There are also examples that showed some people ignored or forgot the evidence shown by others. If my memory serves, there are also instances where the progress made by others were being slammed as junk and unproductive.

Of course, I am not trying to tell you what to write, but I think these are helpful ideas to think about when your goal is to produce a clear and convincing piece of writing that can perfectly convey your message to arbitration committee members.

By the way, are you going to also mention about how some authority figures gamed the system to uphold a double standard against you? I think the ArbCom is a pretty good opportunity to present a case about it and perhaps clear yourself of that block log.

Hope this helps. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 02:14, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Bob, thanks for your critiques and suggestions. I made some changes and hope it has been better. As for tendentious editing, per ArbCom's policy that they don't rule on content dispute than user's conduct, and the data in RfM cannot be used for evidence, I am not going to do that. But it will be wonderful if you can do it because you know how to do it much better than I. As for the issue "gaming the system" and the mistaken block I got, I may add it in the evidence later because I still have free space of 250+ words and 25 diffs, and maybe I can make a request in the page "Workshop" after adding the evidence. We still have time and only three participants including me have input their evidence so far.--Lvhis (talk) 17:42, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

I am no more experienced at this than you actually :). Just keep in mind that you are trying to convince a group of ladies and gentlemen who know nothing about the dispute and have already gone through 100 KB worth of text before getting to your part (and thus are likely to be very tired and bored). --Bobthefish2 (talk) 20:42, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

I happen to have User:AlexandrDmitri's talk page on my watchlist. It appears the new evidence limit is ~720 words. In the event you need more words to complete your thoughts, this can be of use for you.

On a related manner, our friend posted a link to his ArbCom evidence draft there (obviously, he wouldn't mind others seeing it). I've already written my own draft prior to seeing that link and I am content enough to leave mine as it is. However, I thought you may want a heads-up since you were mentioned. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 19:51, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Now there has been newly added evidence there. I think it is useful for us to re-read Elen's very helpful advice this and this. I am about to work on my request. --Lvhis (talk) 16:00, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

I posted mine as well. I will look at your request later. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 18:54, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

I suppose the evidence phase is close to over and the nature of evidence that may be presented by remaining parties are largely going to be what we would expect. What kind of requests/proposals do you think we should start with? I am leaning towards going more deeply into the circumstances surrounding your ban. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 04:32, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Just want to clarify your terminology. "Ban" and "Block" mean two very different things on WP; a full explanation can be found at WP:BANBLOCKDIFF. Lvhis was blocked for one day; any admin can block any editor as long as they are doing so in order to prevent disruption (which Magog at least thought xe was doing, even if you feel that decision was wrong). Bans are imposed by a large community discussion or by Arbcom. Full site bans are, by definition, indefinite (though not necessarily infinite); topic bans can have limited duration, but I've never seen one of less than 6 months. So, you'll want to be discussing Lvhis's block, not ban. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:03, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying the terminology. The actual correct term is indeed as you've suggested. By the way, are you interested in helping us to raise this matter to the ArbCom? Your expertise in WP laws can be of help to us especially when our opponents are well-respected administrators. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 05:30, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank both of you. I have corrected there per Qwyrxian's clarification. Bob, it will be more thanks I owe you if you want to make a comment in "Comment by parties" there, but it will also be fine enough if no comment from other parties but only my own request alone waits for ArbCom's decision. --Lvhis (talk) 16:25, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

It appears we (STSC, me, and you) were requested to be blocked indefinitely by some parties. Well, I suppose if that motion does actually go through, it will very neatly destroy their entire opposition. :) --Bobthefish2 (talk) 06:52, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if they really cared or read Ellen's advice "don't spend valuable words lecturing Arbcom on: ...". --Lvhis (talk) 16:14, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it applies to the proposal part of the ArbCom case, although it's true that we were all labelled as single purpose accounts who are supposedly driven by nationalistic urges (as if anyone pushed to name those islands "Diaoyu"). --Bobthefish2 (talk) 07:29, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

My apologies. It appears I was so being unnecessarily picky which led to some unforeseen conflicts (WP can be ridicules like this). I will avoid making the same mistake in the future. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 03:39, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Bob, that's okay; you did not even need apologize. I sensed you had some misunderstanding. One of my main points to have that talk in your page is I hope you were not holding what was not belonging to you at all, particular a very bad thing. Now it is over, thanks. . --Lvhis (talk) 04:08, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I just realized you asked your question on WP:NORN. That was really unnecessary because we have bee in the Arb procedure. I myself don't want to touch any WP public board-like things when I am in the Arb procedure. Good for you it has been over swiftly. --Lvhis (talk) 04:34, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Friendly notification regarding this week's Signpost

Hello. This is an automated message to tell you that, as it stands, you are about be mentioned in this week's 'Arbitration Report' (link). The report aims to inform The Signpost's many readers about the activities of the Arbitration Committee in a non-partisan manner. Please review the article, and, if you have any concerns, feel free to leave them in the Comments section directly below the main body of text, where they will be reader by the editorial team. Please only edit the article yourself in the case of grievious factual errors, as well as refrain from edit-warring or other uncivil behaviour within the comments section. Thank you. On behalf of The Signpost's editorial team, LivingBot (talk) 21:42, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your message on my talk page. Maybe it is in your interest to know that I may take "Q" to RfC/Us if time allows me to do so as I'm still quite busy with other commitments. STSC (talk) 23:28, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Nice hear from you and hope you have done every thing well in South East Asia . I don't have enough knowledge about RfC/Us, while I think our current RfAr or Arbitration is a good platform regarding user's conduct, and it may be the highest one for such. The requester for RfAr sometime can "shoot himself/herself in the foot" if s/he is the major one causing the problem. You can make your proposal in the workshop page, besides you can make your comments to others proposals there. You also can make your comments in the part "Analysis of evidence" there too. --Lvhis (talk) 04:19, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Oda Mari's comment

You may want to reply to that . --Bobthefish2 (talk) 02:24, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Just done as my plan. --Lvhis (talk) 06:27, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

One thing that strikes me is that the "U.S. government argument" should not be the main motivation that justifies the usage of "Liaoncourt Rocks usage", as Pmanderson indicated, since there are many governments in the world that have English as a primary language. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 21:39, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

It will sound like "USA-G POV". (G → Government). --Lvhis (talk) 21:45, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

lol. I didn't even think of that. --Bobthefish2 (talk) 21:54, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

WP:RfArb/Senkaku

According to Elen of the roads, "A useful thing that the parties can do is help Arbcom with ... what it is that is all about...."

It would help me -- and perhaps it would be perceived as helpful by others -- if you were willing to give your answer to Elen's question.

A summary re-statement of what you think this case is all about would appear reasonable here in the context of an analysis of the evidence you presented. --Tenmei (talk) 17:05, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

The time for presenting or resummarising the case has long passed. Please read what Newyorkbrad, one of the drafting arbitrators, says four days ago. Alexandr Dmitri (talk) 17:37, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Friendly notification regarding this week's Signpost

Hello. This is an automated message to tell you that, as it stands, you will shortly be mentioned in this week's 'Arbitration Report' (link). The report aims to inform The Signpost's many readers about the activities of the Arbitration Committee in a non-partisan manner. Please review the article, and, if you have any concerns, feel free to leave them in the Comments section directly below the main body of text, where they will be read by a member of the editorial team. Please only edit the article yourself in the case of grievious factual errors (making sure ot note such changes in the comments section), as well as refraining from edit-warring or other uncivil behaviour on project pages generally. Thank you. On behalf of The Signpost's editorial team, LivingBot (talk) 00:00, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Senkaku Islands closed

An arbitration case regarding Senkaku Islands has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:

1. User:Tenmei is indefinitely topic banned from the subject of Senkaku Islands, widely construed. The topic ban includes talk pages, wikipedia space and userspace.
2. Tenmei is advised that his unusual style of communication has not been conducive to resolving this dispute. Accordingly, Tenmei is urged to develop a different style of communication, which is more similar to that used by experienced Misplaced Pages editors. Until this happens, Tenmei is advised not to engage in topics which are the subject of a dispute.
3. Tenmei is banned for one year.
4. User:Bobthefish2 is topic banned from the subject of Senkaku Islands, widely construed, for one year. The topic ban includes talk pages, wikipedia space and user space.
5. User:STSC is warned to avoid any sexualisation of discussions, especially during disputes.
6. The parties are reminded that attempts to use Misplaced Pages as a battleground may result in the summary imposition of additional sanctions, up to and including a ban from the project.
7. The topic covered by the article currently located at Senkaku Islands, interpreted broadly, is placed under standard discretionary sanctions. Any uninvolved administrator may levy restrictions as an arbitration enforcement action on users editing in this topic area, after an initial warning.
8. An uninvolved administrator may, after a warning given a month prior, place any set of pages relating to a territorial dispute of islands in East Asia, broadly interpreted, under standard discretionary sanctions for six months if the editing community is unable to reach consensus on the proper names to be used to refer to the disputed islands.

   While a territorial dispute is subject to discretionary sanctions due to this remedy, any uninvolved administrator may levy restrictions as an arbitration enforcement action on users editing in these topical areas, after an initial warning.

For the Arbitration Committee, Alexandr Dmitri (talk) 21:30, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Wiki e-mail

Dear Lvhis, someone wishes to contact you and asked if you could activate your Wiki e-mail? Thanks. STSC (talk) 04:06, 17 October 2011 (UTC)