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Userbox broken now...

Looks like the headstone/bat image never had proper licensing, and has been deleted. Someone want to find an appropriate FREE (not fair use) image with which to replace it? Jclemens (talk) 10:15, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Low Quality Contributions

Could someone from tha project look at these recent contributions and see if they agree with me that they are of little value and consist mostly of trivia, WP:OR and WP:SYNTH? Britmax (talk) 21:19, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

These additions may prove interesting to fans, but do perhaps belong on a specialist wiki like the Buffy/Angel wiki rather than here, maybe. --jayunderscorezero (talk) 22:52, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Largely junk, not all junk. —Tamfang (talk) 00:12, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Non Free Content Discussion

There is a discussion Here about the use of screens shots in character articles, we need more views, to see what the consensus is.RAIN*the*ONE 15:19, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Stub type

Greetings! A stub template or category which you created has been nominated for renaming or deletion at Misplaced Pages:Stub types for deletion. The stub type most likely doesn't meet Misplaced Pages requirements for a stub type, through failure to meet standards relating to the name, scope, current stub hierarchy or likely size, as explained at Misplaced Pages:Stub. Please feel free to make any comments at WP:SFD regarding this stub type, and in future, please consider proposing new stub types first at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals! This message is boilerplate, left here as a courtesy, and should not be considered personal in nature.

See discussion for Category:Buffyverse stubs Dawynn (talk) 15:13, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Buffy/Angel characters infobox

I wasn't too sure where to put this, but this seems like the best place. For characters that have appeared in both Buffy and Angel, shouldn't it have both Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel listed in the series parameter in the infobox? Currently it only lists Buffy the Vampire Slayer for characters that have appeared in both. I'm not aware of any guideline for this, if it should only list the series they were established in or include all the series' the character has appeared in. Wondering if anyone else could put some input on this. Thanks. Drovethrughosts (talk) 17:31, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, but is it always a case of the character migrating from Buffy to Angel?

And is it avoiding the crossover/cameo appearances?

- J Greb (talk) 18:04, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

With those limitations, that's just Angel, Cordelia, and Wesley. Jclemens (talk) 19:04, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

To answer the question (I believe this what you meant), no character was established on Angel and then appeared on Buffy, Angel was the only character to reappear on Buffy. And also, it would hard to define what the limitations of a crossover appearance would be, I would agree on the appearances of Buffy, Willow, Oz, Andrew, and the Master as crossover appearances. But characters like Darla (more appearances on Angel), Drusilla, Faith, Harmony, and Spike all appeared quite enough as recurring (or main) characters. Drovethrughosts (talk) 20:41, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

L&S: Cross overs are generally for 1 or 2 episodes. Anything else would be, to my mind, establishing the character as part of the other show's cast.

In that light there are I think 7 characters that 1) should have bot shows listed and 2) should be in Buffy, Angel order.

Looking at how to get that info in since the articles use {{Infobox character}}... Try:

series = Buffy the Vampire Slayer'' and ''Angel

- J Greb (talk) 21:19, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

What does "Angel was the only character to reappear on Buffy" mean? Drusilla and (to a lesser extent) Faith also became established as Angel characters before their last appearances on Buffy. —Tamfang (talk) 05:50, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Oops, yeah, no idea why I only said Angel returned to Buffy after leaving. Thanks for the correction! So, are we settled on what to do? Drovethrughosts (talk) 13:33, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Infobox bloat

I think we have a problem on the project (as in many others) with how editors treat infoboxes. They attempt to use them exhaustively. See, for example, Rupert Giles. Editors want to include such listings as Significant other = Jenny Calendar, Profession = Shopkeeper, Librarian etc.. But no editor ever wishes to record such a thing for any reason other than that the fields exist. I think there is a larger problem with infoboxes insofar as they are blunt and useless. For example, what we learn of Giles (as someone who has never hears of him or Buffy, for argument's sake) is drastically over-stated by the infobox. Jenny was a character in the first two seasons; her significance is limited to those. Yet to list it so simply would suggest she was Giles' long-term partner, or at least, do an injustice to what was a tragedy in the show. In fact, it seems strangely biographical. "Giles" is not a real person. Editors, commonly IP editors, don't seem to get that the articles are not biographies of fictional characters. In the same physical space of the page, one could more easily write a short gloss of the storyline in the lead, but I would still lean towards saying that this would be overly-detailed, considered against the bigger picture of the character's 7-year TV arc, real-world information, etc.. Instead, the Jenny character and their storyline ought to be mentioned properly and in due context in sections like Appearances, Characterization, Development or Reception (ideally). The infobox I should hope would list some essential facts about the character. It should list their main actor(s), who created them, their first appearance (important real world stuff, not all of which might require mentioning in the lead itself). It should then provide the briefest and clearest of overviews: e.g., to say that Giles is British, maybe that he's Buffy's "Watcher" (as it describes his role in the show, not because it's what the fictional character mostly does). The picture of Anthony head, and that his name is Rupert, should tidily cover that he is male, etc. In the case of the Buffy article, one could probably argue the case for Dawn and Joyce's inclusion (as they are large storylines), although I'm sceptical, and it would be difficult to argue the significance of Hank. But you would want to list Sarah Michelle Gellar, Kirsty Swanson, perhaps even the Kazuis, the Buffy movie, etc.; to list Angel and Spike and Riley as 'significant others' also seems biographical. Though Angel and Spike probably deserve a write-up in the lead.

We ought to be more stringent with infoboxes (and categories). Because something is true doesn't demand its inclusion. We should be thinking of essentials, whe aesthetics of the page, whether you'd put in the Lead, whether actually it should go in the Lead instead, and whether the subject is actually more complicated than the simple, factual infobox format allows us to explain. The page on Giles has been locked because I don't think I was successful in convincing an IP editor that we don't need to overload infoboxes with facts. And in large part this is something being dealt with directly at the template page, too. But I thought I would consult the Project's POV on the matter.~Zythe 13:52, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the overuse of infoboxes. In my experience, editors add to infoboxes because it makes simple work of complex issues that should be explained by sources in the prose. (The issue of how to populate the religion line in the Harvey Milk infobox has arisen more than once; the infobox in Emmett Till is so useless it's unintentionally funny.) I dislike infoboxes very much, regardless of what kind of article they're in. So many other editors insist on them that unless something is outright inaccurate, I just ignore them. Seems pop culture articles like Buffy-related ones (a series! with characters!) invite folks to tinker with them even more. --Moni3 (talk) 15:14, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Is there a means by which we can encourage editors not to abuse infoboxes this way? Perhaps an essay? It seems there is no ideology or firm reason behind the infobox. The infobox in articles about fiction is such a liberty that we're really in remiss for not having one. If it was written down, the people would eventually come to understand or anticipate my inevitable WikiNaziing.~Zythe 22:14, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

I've helped Zythe revert some of the bloat on Buffy boxes recently but I've run into the same problem elsewhere and come to the same conclusions as to why the problem exists. I doubt this would work at the TV project at large, but I'm wondering if it wouldn't behoove the individual projects, like this one, to adopt more specific guidelines and policies about infoboxes. For example, and to steal a concept from one of Zythe's recent edit summaries on the topic, why couldn't we flat out state that "items which fluctuate frequently in a series should not be included in the infobox, but addressed in prose instead," or something along those lines. That would solve the relationships bloat at least. Some of the things that get needlessly added I don't really have a guideline concept for in my head but I thought I'd toss the general idea out there. Millahnna (talk) 22:24, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

That's a good idea. How would we go about that? Do we have to message some project members to get a consensus? If the Buffy WP started it, I imagine some other WPs would follow.~Zythe

That seems like a good way to go about it (which reminds me, I'm not sure I officially ever joined the project here). We could also drop a note at WT:TV (and I guess WT:FILM and WT:COMICS, as well) that we are considering some more specific guidelines for the infobox. Odds are there are more than a few people who watch related pages under those umbrellas but don't read here very often. And since you were talking at the character infobox template about some of this a few days back, it might not hurt to update there about any decisions we come to, eventually. I'm not sure if the folks watching there would want to participate in the conversation at large (they might I really have no idea) but they might like to know the ultimate results of your initial conversation. Millahnna (talk) 13:53, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

FWIW, the WP:COMICS {{Infobox comics character}} removed the "relatives" parameter years ago and this seems to have been a recurring theme at Template talk:Infobox character.

As for my 2¢... At Infobox character I agree with combining the parameters of {{{spouse}}}, {{{children}}}, and {{{relatives}}} into {{{family}}} and either sticking {{{significantother}}} either there or "romantic interest for plot" - and the more I think about that the more I prefer putting SO into family to cover "non-conventional marital like situations" and let the romantic plots be left to the body text.

Beyond that... and this probably would go over poorly with consolidationists... create or resurrect a Buffy centric 'box similar to {{Infobox Star Wars character}} that passes the information to Infobox character but limits and standardizes the IU fields.

- J Greb (talk) 15:32, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

The series-specific ones were really good. When the Infobox was widened and cross-media standardized it made for this whole problem with bloating. If we had a "locked" {{Infobox Buffyverse character}} we could decide on significant traits. For Buffy I'd be so daring as to not actually include SO, or family members even. Where family is only ever notable it is for Dawn and Joyce and of course those characters will be mentioned as Buffy's sister/mother in their lead sections. Dawn wouldn't deserve a lead section mention a Buffy page but of course would be mentioned under the season five summary and if properly done, in Development/Reception. Which would people rather make: a Buffyverse infobox, or attempt to create a guideline? The problem with a guideline is it would have to be enforced in the same way as now.~Zythe 23:00, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Given what you and J Greb are saying I think perhaps a Buffy Box would be a better way to go. But creation of such templates is over my head so there may be some consideration there I'm not thinking of. But you're right about enforcement; no amount of reverts is deterring this anon editor we are dealing with right now. Based on his/her responses I don't think they understand why we find the material they are adding objectionable ("it needed to be added onto" and similar edit summaries). So I guess a guideline/policy isn't going to help much. Millahnna (talk) 01:18, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, naturally we can't expect casual editors to be well-versed in esoteric Wiki policies! I see J Greb has started the template. This is good. I'm currently in the middle of Finals, yearbook editing, and some other obligations, but I can certainly find time to discuss what to go in. And I can make changes to a template once it's all in place but I'd get lost were I to attempt anything from scratch.~Zythe 22:42, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

OK... I've put the infobox back up. It is using {{Infobox character}} as a meta-template and what it places matches the episode 'boxes. That said: feedback on what is and isn't there would be helpful. - J Greb (talk) 22:58, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

character lists

Why were List of Buffy the Vampire Slayer characters and List of minor Buffy the Vampire Slayer characters separated? —Tamfang (talk) 05:41, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

They've been that way for years. WP:SIZE, perhaps? Jclemens (talk) 05:42, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Our Infobox content warrior

In my last revert of the infobox bloat on Rupert Giles, I did a simultaneous light clean up pass (corrected some spelling and killed some extraneous spaces). The anon editor is now reverting this edit wholesale instead of just readding his material as he has done in the past. I'm concerned about venturing into edit war territory and his edit summaries are getting more and more ridiculous. I'm really not sure what we should do about this guy at this point. I dropped a 3RR template on his talk page (I've noticed his IP changes periodically so I'm not sure how much good trying to report him would do). I added a note to the template asking him to respect the BRD cycle and project consensus and take the issue to the talk page. I'd be happy to discuss the rationale behind keeping or removing the material. I really have no idea what to do next about this issue. Suggestions? Millahnna (talk) 21:55, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi Millhahnna! Glad I saw this. I dropped him/her a message on their talk page and got a reply very promptly! I think we can probably talk it out, explain the take on the Infobox the project seems to have come to, and hopefully solve the problem amicably. Join in the discussion! I've set the tone -- let's everyone be super polite, good faith, etc.! However, we can't all be expected to have a full dialogue whenever a disagreement comes about, so we should still consider some firmer policy-making or Infobox specialization: good has probably come of all this hotheadedness between us all.~Zythe 22:37, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

I saw! I'm excited because I didn't expect it, with the way things had been going. I'm following the conversation on IP's talk page and yours. SO far I've nothing to add because you and I seem to be of a like mind on the issue. I'll pipe up if I think of something that's outside of what you're saying. Millahnna (talk) 23:44, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

That's what I thought! The main problem is that I can't seem to explain the purpose of the infobox. I guess that is in part down to its being a conceptually flawed design in the first place, in fiction articles at least. Because Giles can be demonstrated to have abilities in some episodes, should they be mentioned? I tried to explain that while he has difficulties, these are something which we saw as they grew out of the character's development; he wasn't introduced at point of conception as a "skilled hand-to-hand combatant librarian with minor magical abilities". A clear if not exactly analogous example of this would be Lois Lane, who has fighting skills in more recent stories due to the retcon which said she was an army brat. It also highlights a problem in a Buffyverse infobox: what would we do to stop people "standarizing"? If we had a "classification" field and a "powers field", would people not insist Giles' "powers" be listed, etc.?~Zythe 18:22, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

It seems to me that IP isn't getting the whole concept of how we are supposed to write about fiction on Misplaced Pages (from real world instead of in-universe perspective). I saw that at one point you brought up the idea of the Buffyverse wikias and how they talk about characters as though they were real live people; where I think IP's edits would be completely appropriate. I wonder if we can explain better by using those ideas a jumping off point. It's part of why I didn't remove the Trio from Warren's group affiliations when the IP added it; said affiliation deals with the major plot arc for the character (in the on screen stuff anyway, I haven't read the comics yet). There's potential to talk about that angle in a real work context.

As far as the standardizing issue you mention, I think we could work with that in the Buffy box by including a guideline to recommend that most of the time, temporary powers probably shouldn't be included (there might be an exception once in a while but I can't think of one right now). Millahnna (talk) 06:32, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I explained everything to the guy nicely and he fully understood but he won't stop. He now doesn't reply when you remind him of the rules. What's the process here?~Zythe 23:39, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

I think we're going to have to take it to WP:ANI; he's got some problems with some edits on BLPs, as well. His edits aren't vandalism so ARV wouldn't be appropriate and the variety of his problems sort of spans across multiple reporting venues (edit warring, blp problems, pov, etc.). Honestly, I'm kind of at a loss myself. But ANI will at least tell us where to go if they aren't the right place (I think). Millahnna (talk) 03:13, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

We could ask Ckatz what the best next course is... since he was the admin who blocked the editor before he might be able to give us some tip for how to proceed. The thing is that while the Buffy articles may have been what brought this up, this anon editor's problems branch across other articles outside our purview. So seeking guidance might be the way to go. Millahnna (talk) 21:24, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Merger Proposal - Joyce Summers

Interested folks may want to check this out. An editor has proposed that Joyce Summers be merged in with a rather large list of minor Buffy characters. Note that apparently the relevant projects have not been notified of this proposal. BTW, do folks know the main page for this project lists it as inactive? Doniago (talk) 14:00, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

173... reported

This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with an IP hopping editor starting with 173.... 71.234.215.133 (talk) 23:56, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Buffy and Angel episodes tagged for notability

A whole bunch of Buffy and Angel episode articles have been mass tagged for notability, references, plot only, and other problems, by one user (see Anne). These pages need to be expanded into more complete articles, otherwise they could end up deleted. I don't have the materials necessary to create Production and other sections, but if someone does and wants to save these articles, it would be helpful. I've been cleaning up plot summaries, shortening them and improving the prose, but that's really all I can do. Just wanted to give everyone a heads up.--TEHodson 22:46, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Improvements

I'm going to attempt to improve some of the episode articles, especially the ones that have been flagged up for not meeting guidelines, but I'm no Misplaced Pages expert so I expect I'll foul up some stuff too (I'll try to follow the precedents set by "The Body" and "Once More, With Feeling" articles). I'm surprised how poor-quality some of the articles are, considering the number of cultural studies-type things that have been written about the show. Guess it's just a case of most of the interest having dissipated before Misplaced Pages was set up. 019893KenNic (talk) 23:52, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

If you want to work with others, I'd be happy to help. Leave a note on my Talk page and tell me which one you wish to start on, preferably before you start. If you've already started, leave a note telling me where to find what you've done. "The Body" was a Featured Article so it's quality is exceptionally high. They don't all have to be that excellent, and in fact probably can't be due to lack of resources, but certainly we can make the writing the as good (that's my specialty). I'm well-versed in Buffy, but don't have the books the others who have written these pages do, so I don't have the sources. Do you have books? What do you do well?--TEHodson 00:54, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

A huge number of rewrites are being done by an anonymouse user, 86.26.130.136 (talk · contribs), including some with an online citation that has caused spamming. How do we deal with this? Is there a way to stop someone who has no User Name or Talk Page?--TEHodson 01:32, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

If it's a true spam issue (or at least a link that violates the EL policies) we can warn them for spamming and report to ARV once they've been warned enough times. Hopefully, though, the editor will engage in conversation. They still have a talk page, even though it's an IP.

As for sources, some of the scholarly stuff that we don't have access to we might be able to get our hands on at the reliable sources notice board. I've gotten some stuff I need for a novel article I will finish revamping (eventually) that way. They're super helpful there.

A lot of the articles have been hit with a lot of fancruft that would be great for the in-universe wikias and that's why they've been tagged. I wouldn't worry about rushing as you're making improvements though. Many of the articles will likely get turned into redirects instead of being flat out deleted. This means that it will be really easy to restore the articles when enough material is gathered to do a full rewrite of something.

I watch a lot of the Buffy related articles (not all because I havne't hit them all to star them yet) and, my schedule permitting, I'd be happy to help where I can. I've tried to at least watch out for excessive fancruft and vandalism but I've been off and on the site the last few months. Millahnna (talk) 01:41, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi, I'm copying this here to explain the situation:

Hi. Are you also the anonymous user 86.26.130.136 who has made hundreds of edits to Buffy episodes? The website Popmatters is a blacklisted site--it is creating problems every time you use it as a reference (see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Buffyverse Improvements section. I've removed two such links and now need to go through everything you've done to deal with them. Please stop! You need to get advice on how to work here. You are also adding sections to the episodes that are entirely original research WP:OR, which will also need to be removed or rewritten. It is a good idea to learn the basics before rewriting huge sections of dozens of episodes. Please stop and get some advice. Thanks.--TEHodson 01:53, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi, I'm not that person but I think I know who that person is cos they asked me to help them and told me how to edit. Obviously they've misled me and we've caused problems - very sorry, as far as I know we both genuinely thought we were helping the articles and were simply trying to follow the standard set by the starred articles about "The Body" and "Once More, with Feeling". I won't edit any more, and feel free to undo the things I've changed. I'll tell the other guy as well. 019893KenNic (talk) 02:18, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Very sorry again. 019893KenNic (talk) 02:23, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi, don't worry, this'll be my last comment on the matter. Just wanted to say that I feel like I'm being accused of things I haven't done on my talk page. I personally have only edited the pages for two articles, "The Harvest" and "The Freshman", and for the second one I greatly shortened the "plot summary", which I thought was the kind of thing we were supposed to be doing to improve the articles. I also removed the "acting list" from it - fair enough if this was against policy, but again I was only following the example of "The Body" which doesn't have an acting list (apart from the "guest starring" one in the top right-hand corner, which I didn't touch on "The Freshman" either), and simply mentions the actors within the text. Instead I'm being accused of adding trivia (all I did was move the existing trivia box, and I was intending to go through it and delete things which were clearly unnecessary tomorrow) and increasing plot summaries - these are things that other users have done, and I don't much appreciate being blamed for them when I was in fact trying to make things better. Perfectly willing to accept responsibility for errors I've made, but when they're not even mine I take offence, especially when I deliberately announced my intentions on the discussion page so people would know what I was doing and let me know if I made any errors. Anyway, I won't edit any more articles - I'm not trying to cause trouble and I realise that it must be difficult keeping track of articles when lots of people come on and mess them up, so I'll just leave you to it. Sorry again. 019893KenNic (talk) 02:50, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm not accusing you of anything. You said you knew the anonymous user and would relay the messages to him, too, so I wrote the message with both of you in mind. Don't quit just because of getting off to a rocky start. We need good editors on the Buffy pages. People lost interest after awhile and the pages have suffered. I only just started working on them because until recently I didn't have hi-speed internet, and doing anything on dial-up was a nightmare. If your interest level is high, try to form a partnership with an established Buffy editor and work together. The Body and Hush were co-written, not solo efforts. If you do know the anon. editor, please tell him to stop editing without making himself available with a Talk page, or to initiate discussion on Talk pages before re-writing an entire article, which he did on The Harvest--dozens of edits, re-casting the whole episode page, without even opening up a discussion beforehand. That usually causes problems. Also, there need to be edit summaries--you can't just edit and run. Explain your thinking (both of you). Most of what was just written is called "fancruft" meaning meaningless stuff that should be on a fan site, not an encyclopedic site. For those of us who love the show it can be hard to keep that stuff off, but it needs to be eliminated. Don't quit, just get better. We all started someplace.--TEHodson 03:00, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

While I don't have much time to help actively clean up Buffy episode articles, if someone needs a mentor or guide in cleaning 'em up, feel free to drop me specific questions on my talk page. Jclemens (talk) 04:24, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Merging of characters to List of Buffy characters?

Why is this being done? --Moni3 (talk) 23:07, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

They don't meet seperate article standards. Major parts of it are plot points from the episodes they were in that were written by fans. Very minimal sources as well. Rusted AutoParts (talk) 23:16 21 October 2011 (UTC)

I should think it depends on the character. Who do you think should be merged/deleted? Please start with that first, all important, step. And generally, it's a good idea to start the discussion before you wipe an article, not wait for someone to ask you what the heck you're up to. Such a decision should be made with other editors close to the project, and consensus reached. And it may just be me, but your signature is really, shall we say, assertive. I feel shouted at.--TEHodson 06:50, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree. As an overall guideline I think the amount of third-party sourcing and real-world coverage should play a role. Andrew Wells for example, seems to merit his own article based on the fact that there is a degree of real world discussion, IMO...or at least a discussion rather than a summary merger. Doniago (talk) 08:16, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Doniago, with whom are you agreeing, and about what, precisely? Not clear.--TEHodson 08:23, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Ah, sorry, I'm dealing with a case of con crud right now, so maybe I wasn't as clear as I intended. I'd support the summary merger of a character page if said character page was purely or almost exclusively in-universe and had no significant third-party coverage. In the case of Andrew Wells at least, and possibly others (I'm not aware of all the articles that were impacted), that doesn't seem to be the case, and therefore I think there should have at least been a discussion before the merger was executed. In this particular case, given the coverage provided, I would have opposed a merger. Doniago (talk) 08:27, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. So it seems a list is in order, first of all, and then discussion of those on the list. Yes? And certainly no executive decisions?--TEHodson 08:41, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Generally, I think so. If a character article is purely in-universe with no 3rd party discussion I have no problem with a summary merger, but it's not as though there's any harm in bringing it up here first in any case. Possibly bringing the article up here might encourage editors to look for worthwhile discussion that can be added to the article as well. Doniago (talk) 09:25, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I just looked at Rusted Auto Parts' talk page, where Moni informed him that this has been discussed multiple times, each time concluding that it should not happen. I've asked her to come here and tell us about that.--TEHodson 09:44, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, I have been remiss. When no one replied I just went on my way and let this discussion sit. Then I went to bed. So--sorry about that. I ended up reverting Rusted AutoParts (talk · contribs)' redirects myself, based on a poll initially started on the Joyce Summers article talk page, then moved to Talk:List_of_minor_Buffy_the_Vampire_Slayer_characters#Merger_proposal. And the fact that Rusted Auto Parts had not discussed these redirects with anyone, or reconciled the duplicate links on the List of Buffy the Vampire Slayer characters caused by the multiple redirects.

I reminded Rusted Auto Parts that articles are not deleted or redirected based on poor or nonexistent sourcing. But the articles should be sourced. There is enough information in academic texts to do it. I've already done Willow and Tara... --Moni3 (talk) 13:11, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, Willow and Tara are main characters, the people that i redirected were recurring or minor characters. Caleb, for instance appeared in 5 of the 144 episodes of the series. That to me doesn't make him notable for a seperate article. The main characters i understand, they are the central characters, the ones that the story revolves around for the whole series, but these secondary characters need more than three sources to bind together an article. Rusted AutoParts (talk) 13:54 22 October 2011 (UTC)

It's a lot easier to make a unilateral decision to delete articles than read sources to make the articles better. Unfortunately, Misplaced Pages is very often about what is easier than what improves content. There is excellent academic information about Buffy characters and that info should be added to the articles. Because it has not yet been added does not give you cause to remove material without consulting interested projects and editors. Don't just do what seems easy. Improve content. Misplaced Pages would not exist without it. --Moni3 (talk) 14:11, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

And it's really not "easier" to just delete articles that have so many other articles linked to them. What I often see is someone doing what AutoParts did, but failing to go through all the places where there is now a dead wikilink. Again, can we see a list of those you think should be deleted? We have to at least have some idea of what you're complaining about, and what needs improving. If there is a list someplace else, please direct us to it. And Moni is right--there's plenty of scholarship out there. If what you want is improvement, AutoParts, it might be an idea to go to the Talk pages of other regular Buffy editors and see if any of them want to get back in the saddle. I don't have any sources myself, but will happily work on prose, grammar, and structure of articles that need help, in partnership with someone who has the appropriate books or articles.--TEHodson 19:27, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

The articles I overturned redirects on were:

• Warren Mears
• Caleb (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)
• Mayor (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)
• Drusilla (Buffy the Vampire Slayer) ‎
• Glory (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)
• Master (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)
• Jenny Calendar
• Adam (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)
• First Evil
• Jonathan Levinson
• Andrew Wells
• Faith (Buffy the Vampire Slayer) --Moni3 (talk) 20:05, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Are there any you're in favor of merging, or do you think they should all get expansion? I could live without Jenny (probably because she always irritated me anyway!); certainly Faith must have her own page. I do feel it could do to have a well-researched page of just the Big Brewin' Evils, all in one place so that references to one another could allow a reader to simply go back and forth within the article, rather than linking to other articles. But that would mean a major structure job and still, plenty of research. It is easier to just leave it all as it is. I'm feeling lazy today, so maybe it's not a good day for this discussion.--TEHodson 20:26, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't really have much of an opinion on merging any of these, although I know there is quite a bit of literature on Faith. There's enough literature to warrant an article on the rest of these characters, probably around the quality of the article for Tara Maclay: short and succinct. It just has to be read and summarized. I've got a few of these books, but I don't think I should be the sole editor responsible for shaping information about Buffy characters. My point about my writing two character articles is that others should jump in an take on other character articles. If the source material is exhausted and the only information left in a character article are the tidbits that individual editors have inserted and mostly WP:OR, then that's the time to consider deleting the article and leaving a brief description of the character on the List. --Moni3 (talk) 17:32, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, it appears that Rusted Auto Parts, who started this, has lost interest, so let's leave it be for now.--TEHodson 00:09, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Late to the discussion here, but it looks like most of the characters proposed for merger have been commented upon sufficiently in RS to meet the GNG, even if the articles currently suck. For example, in the discussion of the "Series 8" comic books, Jenny Calendar's death is references in the finale--and the artist is on record as saying that. Buffy and associated works have been studied to death: if an article currently doesn't demonstrate notability, it's far more likely that all the appropriate sources have not been used, rather than that the sources don't exist. Jclemens (talk) 00:26, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Glad to see the status quo has been restored. 86.144.219.50 (talk) 05:15, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

The things that are sourced on the articles are of interviews by Whedon describing the characters. All the other content is unsourced and basically a plot summary of the episodes. FYI, i redirected Robin Wood, Kennedy and Amy Madison like two weeks ago. IMO, these secondary characters simply don't meet requirements to sustain seperate articles. Yes, they meet GNG, but agan, they suffer from lack of sourcing. Isn't that what the Buffy wiki is for? Rusted AutoParts (talk) 13:16 24 October 2011 (UTC)

There are 3.5 million articles on Misplaced Pages and most of them truly suck. Most of them are barely coherent lists of things people saw on television a few years ago and can't fully remember accurately. That doesn't mean that all unsourced articles or articles with poor sourcing should be deleted. All these articles are waiting for someone to come by and add actual valid academic sources. Buffy characters are no different. There is an Online Journal of Buffy Studies and more than a dozen scholarly texts about the series written by honest-to-god professors and authors.

There is no connection between Misplaced Pages and the various Buffy wikis. Just the wiki format. So passing off some information to be taken on by Buffy wikis is like removing articles about Star Wars because there's another site somewhere on the Internet that takes care of that info.

Once more, the best thing to do in this case is start a discussion. On an article talk page, at the WikiProject talk pages associated with the article. Even if no one ever replies to you, at least you then have some evidence that no one cared enough to reply.

I've now restored the articles for Robin Wood, Kennedy, and Amy Madison. --Moni3 (talk) 21:50, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

What a mess! Are there more? I looked through his contribs, but didn't go back as far as maybe I should have.--TEHodson 23:46, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

If these articles are looking for someone to add more sources, they've been waiting far too long. Glory, for example had her article created in 2003, 8 years ago. That just shows her article isn't a high priority to keep maintained. Also, am i under investigation or something? Why are you looking through my contribution history? Rusted AutoParts (talk) 15:07 25 October 2011 (UTC)

FWIW, I support consolidating articles that have been tagged for needing sourcing for that long without the underlying problem being addressed. If they haven't been tagged previously, then as a courtesy I would do so, and give editors a few additional months to clean the articles up before taking action. I haven't reviewed your contribution history nor do I think it should be pertinent to this situation beyond possibly establishing what article redirects are considered contentious and pertinent to this discussion. Andrew Wells was on my watchlist and I noticed your redirect, which I found confusing since that article does appear to have significant third-party sourcing; it seemed reasonable to be concerned at that point that other articles that may be worthy of stand-alone status may also have been redirected. Doniago (talk) 15:30, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Waiting far too long, eh? Why won't someone help the person who fell down in the busy street right in front of me? Why won't someone come along and do that? This person is suffering and bleeding. Someone should help that person out. I'm going to sit here and watch until someone does that. --Moni3 (talk) 17:50, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

If you want these articles around, why don't you do something too rather than wait for other people to come and assist, which could be a long time. Rusted AutoParts (talk) 18:17 25 October 2011 (UTC)

WP:NOEFFORT is the link you're looking for, I believe. Jclemens (talk) 18:47, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Slacktivism also applies. --Moni3 (talk) 21:02, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

To be fair, the articles were redirected, not deleted. If someone wishes to go in and add third-party context (or otherwise clean up problems), there's nothing stopping them from doing so and removing the redirect if they feel it's appropriate...and they could always ask for other editors' opinions before removing the redirect. As I said, I'm not averse to seeing articles lacking context redirected or (possibly) deleted, but I think it's appropriate and courteous to tag them as a heads-up to editors before taking any precipitous action. I don't believe that was done in this case? Doniago (talk) 18:58, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

It was not. --Moni3 (talk) 21:02, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

NOTE TO RUSTED AUTO PARTS: The only way for me or anyone else to see which articles you've re-directed is by going through your contribs. I don't have all those pages on my watchlist (can't speak for Moni). There's nothing sinister about it; you're not "under investigation"!--TEHodson 21:29, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

I support a lot (but not all) of the redirects that Rusted made; some of these characters were only critical to one season and just don't have as much material to pull from for sourcing. I'm on a painfully slow computer right now so I can't get specific about all of the articles, but, for example, I think Amy Madison is appropriate as a redirect to the list article. I may be missing something about her because I haven't gone through the entirety of the Buffy studies material and am unfamiliar with the comics (I believe she reappears there after her de-ratting in season 7, yes?). But based on what I have looked for for her, her article is never going to be much more than plot summary. There are not extensive interviews about casting, character depiction, acting choices, cultural impact, etc. Faith, however, likely warrants her own article. While I haven't read much of it, I do know there is a metric crapload of material about her available to pull from. Again, those are just the two examples I cna think of off the top of my head. I'd have to be on a much better PC to pull up all of the article redirects and get an impression. Millahnna (talk) 07:24, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd say the only ones worth keeping are Warren Mears, Faith and maybe Drusilla. Everyone else can be redirected, including Amy Madison, Kennedy and Robin Wood. Now with that settled, this has been discussed for 5 days, we should start gouging a consensus. Currently, i see 4 against 2, but others can comment in favor. Rusted AutoParts (talk) 13:14 26 October 2011 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable to me, as long as we make sure that whatever real world info we have in each article makes it to the character list in the migration. Most of those articles are currently entirely (or nearly so) in-universe plot descriptions so at the very least they need refocusing. For example, we have a small amount of real-world stuff on the Jonathan article pertaining to the actor's casting and frequent use as essentially an extra throughout the series. I think Jenny and the Mayor might be worth looking at for possibly keeping as standalone articles. I seem to recall (but could totally be wrong) that there was actually a fair amount of material out there about both even though they were in so little of the series. I'd wager they'd likely have less material out there than the three you listed, but there might be enough. Millahnna (talk) 15:13, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

I've redirected Master (Buffy the Vampire Slayer). Not one source was added to it. Buffy, unfortunately, isn't at the standard of Star Trek to have all characters be given an article. Especially if there's advocates for them to stay while they have no intentions of helping to make the article Misplaced Pages eligable. Rusted AutoParts (talk) 16:37 26 October 2011 (UTC)

And I've reverted it. Is there something you don't understand about starting a discussion about blanking articles? --Moni3 (talk) 16:57, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Can you point us to some sources to help establish notability via real world info on some of these characters then?Millahnna (talk) 17:54, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Go to Google Scholar and search for Master Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I have about a dozen books about the series. Three are official episode guides, which are for fans, and can be used at the barest minimum to cite what happens in episodes, but they also have interviews with the actors and writers, which are more useful. Others are essays on gender and other themes pervasive throughout the series. Many libraries carry these books. Amazon sells them used for very cheap sometimes.

If no one is willing to access any sources to avoid this kind of article butchering, and this is a case where I have to basically save an article by citing it because I'm the only person on Misplaced Pages who has these sources, it would be perfectly fine to change the same of this WikiProject to WikiProject Moniverse, right? That would fit right in with my megalomania. Plus, no doubt someone soon is going to come along and complain about the articles despite not having read the sources. Above all else: love, money, and world peace, I live for that. It's what gets me up in the morning. --Moni3 (talk) 18:18, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

That is all WP:INUNIVERSE. Nothing about the casting, actor's opinion or nothing. Just plot summaries of his appearances. Nothing that has or probably will ever suggest he's eligable for a seperate article. I have discussed it. And with a current consensus of 4/2, it's evident these articles aren't working. No matter how much fans look for it. Rusted AutoParts (talk) 19:08 26 October 2011 (UTC)

You seem to have difficulty understanding that articles can be changed, although that's exactly what you're doing by blanking pages and making redirects. I don't quite know how you can have this disconnect at all. But this is often how things get done on Misplaced Pages. Someone who has no idea what he's doing mucks up a bunch of stuff, refuses to realize what a cockup he's created, then promises to continue mucking things up, forcing editors who actually care about the material to fix it. Job well done. --Moni3 (talk) 19:27, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Proposal for resolution

As there is no deadline by which articles must be sourced, and nothing has been deleted, I propose the following resolution to the current deadlock:

• For articles with no third-party sourcing - leave them redirected until such time as third-party sourced information can and has been incorporated and there is a consensus here to de-redirect the article.
• For articles that currently have third-party sourcing - Remove any current redirects. If an editor feels that a merger is appropriate, they should follow procedure as laid-out at Help:Merging so that a formal consensus can be reached.

This seems like a fair deal to me. Editors who want to see the articles not redirected know what they have to do and have as much time as they need to make it happen. Editors who feel redirects are appropriate have the opportunity to make their case in a fashion that will ensure there is a fair hearing. Doniago (talk) 19:17, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

It does sound fair, except it's not a deadlock. It's currently 4 against 2. Rusted AutoParts (talk) 19:24 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Just name the articles you think you want to delete. I'm rolling my eyes right out of my head. --Moni3 (talk) 19:28, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Moni...a less abrasive tone might be more productive? Just a thought.

RAP - I was referring to the conversational deadlock...from where I was standing, we seemed to be going around in circles without having (at the point I pitched my proposal) reached a course of action that was generally considered satisfactory. Doniago (talk) 19:30, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Moni, your arrogant, sarcastic and overall jackass of a tone is not at all WP:CIVIL. I'm going to assume you didn't read the guideline about INUNIVERSE articles, since your claws are still very sharp. These articles you want kept have been around since Misplaced Pages's early days. And they still retain either no sources or very little. Please understand my POV while i understand yours, and please, drop the atitude. Rusted AutoParts (talk) 19:40 26 October 2011 (UTC)

(ec) No, someone willing to do these articles would be more productive. Not just a thought, but reality. And perhaps not having to do them under the gun of a 17-year-old newbie who has an appalling lack of experience in editing yet somehow calls the shots around here for what should exist and what should not. Much more productive.

Look, this is me cranky, but it's a genuine dislike I have for this site and a glaring flaw in Misplaced Pages. The majority of quality articles are written by about 150-200 editors. Everyone else limits themselves to inserting less than a paragraph at a time or doesn't address content at all (or removes it, for God's sake, despite it not violating BLP). That leaves lone editors like me to write something then have to defend it against dozens of editors over years who refuse to read the sources and complain about the way the article is constructed. I don't want to have to do this anymore. I've stopped writing articles because I just can't defend more than the 40 articles or so that I've written when the rest of this community refuses to engage on a meaningful level. So I can choose to not do anything and watch these articles get deleted by someone who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground, or I can construct a dozen more articles so a dozen more editors who won't read the sources can "clean it up" or do something else that will cause me to create swear words I've never heard before. Not only is it unfair to me, but I will be filtering this content consistently through my own views, despite how hard I try to be neutral. So it will essentially be a whole bunch of articles created by me. I will be shaping what readers see about these characters. I should not have that responsibility by myself. That is not what a collaborative encyclopedia is.

Also, fuck civility. --Moni3 (talk) 19:43, 26 October 2011 (UTC)