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:The ] has as you can see on I think that would be a better new article. Be careful: the amount of prankage taking place is probably red or orange on a scale from red to green. <small>()</small> ] (]) 04:00, 4 November 2011 (UTC) :The ] has as you can see on I think that would be a better new article. Be careful: the amount of prankage taking place is probably red or orange on a scale from red to green. <small>()</small> ] (]) 04:00, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


== Comment from Michael Pollok == == Talk page section blanking ==

:''Copied from ]:''

;The Position of the Founder of the #OWS Working Group on the 99% Declaration.

My name is Michael Pollok and I am the person who wrote the first drafts of the 99% Declaration now found at www.the99declaration.org. Most of what is in this article is false. I am a criminal defense attorney who became involved in #OWS when I began representing a number of students who were arrested on the Brooklyn Bridge. After meeting with these students, giving a talk at their college and discussing what issues mattered to them, I wrote the 99% Declaration.

On October 15, 2011 I appeared before the New York City General Assembly and addressed the General Assembly for over five minutes. During that time, I described the formation of the Working Group on the 99% Declaration and our purpose which is to organize an election of 870 delegates to a National General Assembly to draft a petition for a redress of grievances. This petition shall be served on all three branches of the United States government. I received a warm reception and held a two hour meeting following the General Assembly. Interestingly, all of the speakers before the NYCGA on October 15, 2011 appear in the minutes but my five minute statement does not. appear. My ENTIRE appearance and all mentions of me and our Working Group were excised from the minutes by the facilitators because one or more of them disagreed with our point of view.

I wish to emphasize that carefully followed all of the procedures to start an #OWS Working Group and appeared before the General Assembly on October 15, 2011 at 7:45pm to announce the formation of the Working Group and its first meeting in Liberty Park that night.

Since that announcement to the General Assembly, the working group has moved to Facebook http://www.facebook.com/www.the99declaration.org and currently has over 2300 members. The 99% Declaration page has had more than 173,000 hits since October 18th when it went viral. The 99% declaration has been edited several times by using polls on the Facebook page and a yahoo site so anyone can propose edits and substantive changes.

From the inception of the NYCGA webpage. In fact, we were one of the first groups to appear on the new NYCGA website. Our group on that page was not set up by me or anyone else connected to the 99% Declaration. Instead it was started by Drew of the Internet Working Group and the admins "Stan Ford" and Brad l/n/u were the admins. I never had any admin control over that group so these statements in this article are false. I did criticize the NYCGA because this working group was taken down unilaterally by "Stan Ford" and we never had any admin control of that group.

I have requested assistance form the #OWS mediation group to have the 99% Declaration Working Group restored to the NYCGA official site but my requests have been ignored. The NYCGA operates like the very oligarchies they claim to challenge. I have suggested that I be the co-admin of the group with a member of the internet working group. In sum, most of the information in this article is false.

-Michael Pollok, Esq. 11-3-11, 9:38 p.m. <small>] (] • ]) 01:46, 4 November 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

=== Talk page section blanking ===


The original author of the Declaration, Michael Pollok, has recently here and at ]. This talk page has recently been blanked <s>three</s> ''four'' times by Amadscientist, in his attempt to prevent readers of this page from seeing Mr. Pollok's correspondence, calling it "spam" and referring to Mr. Pollok, a new user, as a "SPA account." This behavior is strongly contrary to ], ], ], and ], and it must stop immediately. ] (]) 05:21, 4 November 2011 (UTC) The original author of the Declaration, Michael Pollok, has recently here and at ]. This talk page has recently been blanked <s>three</s> ''four'' times by Amadscientist, in his attempt to prevent readers of this page from seeing Mr. Pollok's correspondence, calling it "spam" and referring to Mr. Pollok, a new user, as a "SPA account." This behavior is strongly contrary to ], ], ], and ], and it must stop immediately. ] (]) 05:21, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

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99 Percent Declaration was the November 2011 US Collaboration of the Month.
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Notability

Per WP:WEB, the document has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose sources are independent of the site itself including such works as are listed in many of the article's references. Dualus (talk) 00:46, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

The draft was moved to User:Dualus/99 Percent Declaration as the article still does not appear to be independently notable of Occupy Wallstreet. If you believe otherwise, please prove sources that meet WP:GNG to demonstrate independent notability. --LauraHale (talk) 00:56, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
"Wall Street" is two words. Why do you say that it is not independently notable? The following non-trivial published works are independent of the site itself, and most of them meet the reliable source criteria for secondary sources:
  1. Walsh, J. (October 20, 2011) "Do we know what OWS wants yet?" Salon
  2. Kennedy, A.L. (October 22, 2011) "Protesters Plan to Occupy Williamsburg" Williamsburg Yorktown Daily
  3. Duda, C. (October 19, 2011) "Occupy Wall Street Protesters Call for National General Assembly, Put Forward Possible Demands" Juvenile Justice Information Exchange
  4. Lopez, L. (October 19, 2011) "Finally! The Protesters Have Drafted A Set Of Demands For The Jobs Crisis" Business Insider
  5. Haack, D. (October 24, 2011) "How the Occupy movement won me over" The Guardian
  6. Kingkade, T. (October 18, 2011) "Occupy Wall Street Protesters Propose A National Convention, Release Potential Demands" Huffington Post
  7. Lefcourt, D. (October 21, 2011) "The Essence of the Occupy Movement, 'Redress of Grievances'" Op-ed news
  8. Benn, J. (October 20, 2011) "Occupy protestors make demands in The99Declaration" Collegian
  9. Moore, T. (October 25, 2011) "The Populist's Dilemma" Cornell Sun
Are there any reasons to believe otherwise? Dualus (talk) 01:14, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Why not? You didn't respond for over an hour to my question above. You did try to canvass someone with whom you have had no interactions independent of me and try to delete questions concerning this article from your talk page. Do you believe your actions are trying to improve the encyclopedia, or are you attempting to be retributive because of your opinion of my opinions? Dualus (talk) 02:26, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

LOL

I got a kick out of this story and I predict most editors will too. Dualus (talk) 10:40, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Has anyone noticed that the text of the Lopez story has been changing? Dualus (talk) 23:47, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Archived OWS talk page sections

Which mutual funds invest most and least closely in the protesters' goals?

I was looking through http://www.afscme.org/news/press-room/press-releases/2010/barclays-northern-state-street-and-vanguard-top-list-of-mutual-funds-enabling-excessive-ceo-pay and it occurred to me that I have no idea where to find a list of mutual funds targeting investments from the protesters. It's the financial district. Do any of the financial conglomerates offer a mixed and balanced socially responsible credit union fund to try to get customers off the rebound from http://moveyourmoneyproject.org/? Is anyone else offering socially responsible investments specifically tailored to the 99 Percent Declaration? Dualus (talk) 01:22, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Vaguely related, here's a smart video about communication with banks. Dualus (talk) 03:38, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

You seem to be inviting original research, or else offering to perform some yourself. Please avoid manufacturing topics that you believe should be of interest to OWS protesters. That is not the kind of material that goes in a WP article. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 15:50, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
WP:NPOV requires that we cover both sides of controversies. I am trying to find funds both for and against the protester's goals. Why is that not completely appropriate for a movement based in the financial district? Dualus (talk) 16:14, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
WP NPOV doesn't require you to manufacture a topic and then cover "both sides" of it, or whatever the hell it is you think you're doing. Actually NOR forbids you from manufacturing a topic in the first place. As I said, that's not the kind of material that goes in WP articles. Period. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 16:55, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Are you saying I'm manufacturing the afscme.org story cited above? Or am I looking for a neutral way to include it? Dualus (talk) 17:53, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
It can never be included. You need some RS's to make the case for the connection. Since the article is from 2010, the article itself cannot make the connection, only you can (which is OR). Arzel (talk) 18:03, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
FYI, you're talking into a black hole of rationality. All logic that is fed into it is never seen again. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 18:57, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Photo for week 5

File:Caitlin sign.jpg
Caitlin Curran holding a sign with a quote from Conor Friedersdorf at Occupy Wall Street demonstration held at Times Square New York on October 15, 2011. Photo by Ben Furnas.

I thought this photo might be suitable for Occupy_Wall_Street#Week_5_.28October_15.E2.80.9321.29. The photo itself, subject, and quote have all become notable. See Conor Friedersdorf. Here's a link to the reference in the photo. Adam Clark Estes and Dino Grandoni, “Another Public Radio Freelancer Gets the Ax Over Occupy Wall Street”, The Atlantic, October 28, 2011

Any seconds for including it?--Nowa (talk) 21:58, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd oppose it, too much of a WP:COATRACK for the quote. The article is a record of the protest, not publicity for the protests or their messages. SDY (talk) 22:01, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
Better?--Nowa (talk) 22:17, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
The photo is the problem, not the caption. SDY (talk) 22:22, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
Is the concern the message that is visible in the sign or something else?--Nowa (talk) 22:29, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
The photo is the sign. Basically, if we want to include text, we should include text. Photos of text are just silly. SDY (talk) 23:49, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps, but here is what Forbes Magazine had to say about the photo |"One could write at length about the semiotics of the already-famous photo, including the way in which Ms. Curran’s eyeballs have moved upward and to her right, an intriguing detail that reinforces our own attention to the words of her poster." So there certainly is a reliable source indicating that the image is more than merely a picture of words.--Nowa (talk) 13:54, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
That link doesn't work. Honestly, the "week by week coverage" is kind of dubious anyway, per WP:NOTNEWS, WP:NOTINDISCRIMINATE, and a couple of other policies. If we're going to have six weeks, OK, but if we go into twenty weeks, we're going to have to start condensing some of that so having an image gallery is problematic. SDY (talk) 17:09, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Link should work now. Not sure what the problem was. Regarding the week by week coverage, I agree, if too many weeks go by we will have to come up with a different structure and no doubt we will have to weed images at that time.--Nowa (talk) 18:43, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Please include per WP:OI. Dualus (talk) 22:34, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
Why include this? Seems very much pushing the point of view of the protester and is in no way encyclopedic or neutral. Thoughts Dualus?--Amadscientist (talk) 05:55, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
It's better for the Timeline article. There should be some bit about the journalists being fired as a significant moment, along with the photo. --David Shankbone 17:37, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Good idea. I posted a similar query on the Timeline talk page. And also good idea on the journalist firings. Let me draft something up and we can put below for vetting--Nowa (talk) 18:53, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
I find the protester's English composition skills and focus notable. I think this should be in the main article. Dualus (talk) 21:43, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Please explain in detail how her "English composition skills and focus" apply to Misplaced Pages guidelines for notability. It may be significant to her that she was fired and may be notable for the time line but would be undue weight to the article as being "sensational" and attempting to create more than an employee being terminated for cause. Since this deals with subjects of ethics, and a living person, this will probably be a BLP concern.--Amadscientist (talk) 08:25, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
For the record, she was quoting someone else. And I did put it in Timeline_of_Occupy_Wall_Street#October_2011 so there is no rush here.--Nowa (talk) 10:37, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

"I find the protester's English composition skills and focus notable" is a comment which illustrates the very problematic editing, including the tendency to bog the Talk page down with utterly irrelevant considerations, that we're seeing at this page. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 15:47, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

What are the reasons to the contrary? It is easy to find stories about her, especially with image search. Dualus (talk) 16:13, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Notability has nothing whatsoever to do with your opinion. And generally speaking, notability never has anything to do with anyone's opinion about anybody else's "English composition skills and focus". In short, your previous comment is utterly irrelevant to this article and fairly nonsensical. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 16:57, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
This is not about my opinion. Several news outlets have found the person, sign, and events surrounding both notable. Have you tried searching? Dualus (talk) 17:55, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
All you've talked about here is your opinion, which once again is irrelevant. Bring up something relevant, and we can discuss that. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 19:02, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
How about this Washington Post blog entry? Dualus (talk) 10:04, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
What about it? Do you think everyone who's had a blog entry written about them gets on Misplaced Pages? If there are arguments to be made in favor of inclusion, you need to actually make those arguments. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 12:10, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
How about this Felix Salmon piece? Worthy of inclusion with the photo? Dualus (talk) 12:18, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Clean up references

What are the most urgent needs for article clean up? {{refimprove}}? Dualus (talk) 22:32, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

It has been suggested on the AfD page for this article that we clean up the references on the current page. Anyone else interested in joining in? My thought is to first identify references that aren't suitable, post them here, see if we can find alternate suitable references, and then replace. Sound good?--Nowa (talk) 22:36, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Dualus (talk) 00:08, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks to Laura for pointing to the best places to add sources. Dualus (talk) 03:09, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Graph showing changes in US real income in top 1%, middle 60%, and bottom 20% from 1979 through 2007.
Well, since a moderator wasn't called for, I thought I would get started. I'll try to find reliable secondary sources to replace primary source and private blog I deleted.--Nowa (talk) 00:33, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm fairly sure File:Inequality-by-Kenworthy.png is based on reliable sources, but that doesn't matter because of WP:OI which allows original research in illustrations. Dualus (talk) 00:36, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps, but my real concern is that I don't think the graph really adds anything to the article. If we really do need a graph, there are lots over at Income inequality in the United States--Nowa (talk) 01:30, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Frankly, I think those all look pretty bad, like they were made in Excel. The point of the graph is to accentuate the "99%/1%" divide, and so I am replacing it. Please feel free to insert any graph you think would work better. Dualus (talk) 05:26, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Constitutional ammendment

Dualus does not have consensus for this section to be included in the article. If anyone else supports this being included, please say so.

I intend to replace the section after and are included. I would like to know what problems people see with inclusion. Do you understand that grievance (2) asks for ? Dualus (talk) 04:37, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
It's undue weight.--Amadscientist (talk) 08:52, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Documents introduced into the United States Senate are notable. However, we are discouraged from creating or referencing documents such as "S.J.Res. ____" because it's never clear how many underlines there are. Dualus (talk) 18:08, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Copyvios

If the large amounts of quoting go back in, I will report the person putting those large tracks of quoting for WP:COPYVIO. Summarise it in Misplaced Pages's summary style.--LauraHale (talk) 04:17, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

How do you define "large amounts"? As far as I can tell, the standard of inclusion for determining whether a paraphrase is fair use is:
"The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent." Schenck v. United States, 249 U.S. 47, 52 (1919). "One may not counsel or advise others to violate the law as it stands. Words are not only the keys of persuasion, but the triggers of action, and those which have no purport but to counsel the violation of law cannot by any latitude of interpretation be a part of that public opinion which is the final source of government in a democratic state." Masses Publishing Co. v. Patten, 244 F. 535, 545 (S.D.N.Y. 1917)(Hand, J.).
Per Fair use, the use is transformative because redundant and subordinate passages have been deleted for educational and public policy communications purposes. The use is minimal because it is only five paragraphs from twenty sections. The factual content in the quoted passages copied and cited is trimmed to support encyclopedic information. Only selected relatively insubstantial passages are quoted. Most importantly, there is no market to be harmed for this document which is given away free on the internet. If there are any reasons that my paraphrase above does not meet that standard of inclusion, please tell me them. Dualus (talk) 05:09, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
You could just put it in a Block quote and add the reference material as a source for it. That way, it is clearly used as a quotation and, thus, isn't a copyvio. Silverseren 05:18, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
The text is not particularly well written. I'd rather keep paraphrasing until people stop deleting it. Dualus (talk) 06:37, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Go ahead...put it all back in and see how quickly it is speedy deleted with the correct tag placed. Fair Use case law is not the entirety of what must be met...you have to comply with all Misplaced Pages policy in that regard for use. As a text document you can only use small "snippets" and even then it depends on how it is used and why. Paraphasing is the policy. Text must be original and not copy pasted.--Amadscientist (talk) 08:51, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Does anyone agree that the five paragraph summary style paraphrased above is a copyright violation? Dualus (talk) 18:56, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Going once.... Dualus (talk) 21:50, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Going twice.... Dualus (talk) 23:08, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Not sure if you are asking about the Fair Use explanation above or something else. As I stated, Misplaced Pages has an Manuel of Style guideline for fair use that must be adhered to, but unclear if you are referring to other information on this talk page.--Amadscientist (talk) 00:14, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Fair use is covered in WP:NFCC, not the Manual of Style. Dualus (talk) 04:05, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Demands working group

The Brookings Group reference makes the point the the authors of the 99 Percent Declaration is an organization called "The Demands Working Group" and this group is not the same as Occupy Wall Street.

"The General Assembly of the New York City occupation has explicitly denied the Demands Working Group’s claim to speak on behalf of the movement."

Several other references we have for this article also use the term "Demands Working Group" separately from "Occupy Wall Street". Should we rely on these sources to clarify that point in the article? Does "Demands Working Group" warrant it's own article?--Nowa (talk) 01:11, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

The New York City General Assembly has several working groups, as you can see on their website. I think that would be a better new article. Be careful: the amount of prankage taking place is probably red or orange on a scale from red to green. (Threat condition Elmo!) Dualus (talk) 04:00, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Talk page section blanking

The original author of the Declaration, Michael Pollok, has recently attempted to communicate with us here and at the deletion discussion. This talk page has recently been blanked three four times by Amadscientist, in his attempt to prevent readers of this page from seeing Mr. Pollok's correspondence, calling it "spam" and referring to Mr. Pollok, a new user, as a "SPA account." This behavior is strongly contrary to WP:TALK, WP:NPA, WP:BITE, and WP:AGF, and it must stop immediately. Dualus (talk) 05:21, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Take it to an ANI. If the readers of this talk page would simply view the history, it is clear the "author" (which I use loosely as we have no proof this was him to begin with..but probably) never made any such post. It was just Dualus with more copy paste.--Amadscientist (talk) 05:24, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Note that the same message was also posted by the same new user to the article page. For what reasons do you call this "spam"? Dualus (talk) 05:35, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
  1. Adam Clark Estes and Dino Grandoni, “Another Public Radio Freelancer Gets the Ax Over Occupy Wall Street”, The Atlantic, October 28, 2011
  2. Kenworthy, L. (August 20, 2010) "The best inequality graph, updated" Consider the Evidence
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