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Syria Start‑class Mid‑importance

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Middle Ages: Crusades Unassessed

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The 1911 Edition of Encyclopaedia Britannica about Yuruks, Kailars and Konariotes ,Seljuk noble families ,Zengid Dynasty and Beys

see link

The first Turkish immigration from Asia Minor took place under the Byzantine emperors before the conquest of the country. The first purely Turkish town, Yenije-Vardar, was founded on the ruins of Vardar in 1362. After the capture of Salonica (1430), a strong Turkish population was settled in the city, and similar colonies were founded in Monastir, Ochrida, Serres, Drama and other important places. In many of these towns half or more of the population is still Turkish. A series of military colonies were subsequently established at various points of strategic importance along the principal lines of communication. Before 1360 large numbers of nomad shepherds, or Yuruks, from the district of Konia, in Asia Minor, had settled in the country; their descendants are still known as Konariotes. Further immigration from this region took place from time to time up to the middle of the 18th century. After the establishment of the feudal system in 1397 many of the Seljuk noble families came over from Asia Minor; their descendants may be recognized among the beys or Moslem landowners in southern Macedonia. At the beginning of the 18th century the Turkish population was very considerable, but since that time it has continuously decreased. A low birth rate, the exhaustion of the male population by military service, and great mortality from epidemics, against which Moslem fatalism takes no pre-cautions, have brought about a decline which has latterly been hastened by emigration

The Turkish rural population is found in three principal groups:

• the most easterly extends from the Mesta to Drama, Pravishta and Orfano, reaching the sea-coast on either side of Kavala, which is partly Turkish, partly Greek.
• The second, or central group begins on the sea-coast, a little west of the mouth of the Strymon, where a Greek population intervenes, and extends to the north-west along the Kara-Dagh and Belasitza ranges in the direction of Strumnitza, Veles, Shtip and Radovisht.
• The third, or southern, group is centred around Kailar, an entirely Turkish town, and extends from Lake Ostrovo to Selfije (Servia). The second and third groups are mainly composed of Konariot shepherds. Besides these fairly compact settlements there are numerous isolated Turkish colonies in various parts of the country. The Turkish rural population is quiet, sober and orderly, presenting some of the best characteristics of the race. --Trwiki 10:28, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

title

I know Zengi himself began as Atabeg of Mosul, but is it correct to use "Atabeg" as the title for all Zengid rulers? john k 18:45, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

They might have used the title atabeg even if they weren't anyone's atabeg in particular (Zengi, at least, used all sorts of flashy titles). However, ibn al-Qalanisi always refers to Nur ad-Din as "amir" and "son of the atabeg". It's probably better to call them emirs (and it's likely that I listed them all here as atabegs before I really knew what an atabeg was...) Adam Bishop 22:48, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Shall we go with "Emir," then? john k (talk) 21:24, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah that's probably better. Adam Bishop (talk) 04:15, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

name

The word "Zangi" is Persian and means "black" or, in this case, "African". The dynasty took this name after gaining power in northern Africa. Rendering the term "Zengi" is due to the Turkish vocalic harmony. The founder of the dynasty, Aq Sunqur al-Hajib, did not carry that name. His son was the first to call himself "Zangi", meaning "the African".—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.144.211 (talk) 00:15, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

When did they take power in Africa? Adam Bishop (talk) 01:54, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Coinage

Please find hereafter some coins of the Zengids. Feel free to insert them in the article. PHG (talk) 19:45, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Questionable source

After politely asking for quote from the two source supplied by user:Carinae986, I was told to simply "assume good faith". Since subsequent searches on google and amazon indicate that the words Zengid/Zangid, Turkish and Persian do not show up on page 152 of Volume 1, I see no reason to assume anything. Therefore, I will tag both "sources" as unreliable sources. --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:44, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Kansas - the following was posted to my talk page a couple hours ago. Since you made the initial post there I had just assumed you would keep up on it.

"Kansas Bear, I understand your concerns, given the apparent sensitivity of the subject (I know, I spent all day reverting similar things on the Saladin article), but this isn't really a big deal, of course the Zengids were Turkic. The source Carinae gave is one of any dozens of sources that could be given to support the same thing. And Carinae, I guess you're relatively new here, so please excuse us if we seem hyper-vigilant. Misplaced Pages can be frustratingly arcane sometimes, and with these subjects we get a lot of vandalism, and lots of people trying to make some sort of nationalistic point, so it helps to be as transparent as possible with sources. We're all on the same side here!" Adam Bishop (talk) 22:45, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

So like Adam said, I'm new here so I'm making an extra effort to not take offense. But the plain fact is that you're asking me to cite something that is common knowledge among people with the relavant background. When you demand to see a citation to prove that arabs spoke arabic, or turks spoke turkic, in the medi eval period, you're like a guy who reads a ww2 article and demands to see a citation to prove that the french spoke french, or the germans spoke german. It's something that most people would understand without having a citation spell it out. Notwithstanding, I provided two citations. For whatever reason, this doesn't seem to have resolved the issue. I'm also overlooking your complaint that the entire text of a 3 volume history of Islam isn't freely and instantly available online. It seems pretty unreasonable to me that you would expect that it would be. Based on your criteria of instant and free access for every single citation, we'd have to dump 90% of the citations on this site. Obviously this isn't a workable proposal. And no I'm not going to type out the whole text either. I know it won't placate you, and in any case I'm not your personal typist. If you want to see the relavant text, what I suggest you do is make a trip to your local library and look it up yourself. Like Adam said, you can find confirmation that Arabs spoke arabic or that Turks spoke turkic in even the most general history of medi eval Islam. Thousands of possible citations are available. I just happened to locate one from my own library.

So look, what this boils down to is that I know something about this subject that you don't, I own and have read a book that you haven't, and you need to just go ahead and give me the benefit of the doubt unless you're willing to go through the extra effort of finding this book yourself. That's what the WP:AGF guidelines tell you to do. I've reverted the page one last time, and if you're still not satisfied, for whatever reason, we'll start the mediation process. If we do, I promise you that my position will be vindicated. I'm familiar with this period, I live right next to a university library, and I don't mind visiting it in order to show - in excruciating, exacting, meticulous, mind-numbing detail - why I'm right on this subject. Carinae986 (talk) 07:12, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

You apparently want to make this a personal issue, which it is not. What I know personally is not relevant here. What you can prove is. As per Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, the "burden of proof" is on you, not me. Since you have already admitted having the book(s) in your possession, therefore simple quote(s) to verify should be no problem. So look, as much as you have tried to make this a personal issue(with comments of, "..I know something about this subject that you don't, I own and have read a book that you haven't.."), that is not the this issue here. As I have stated earlier, Volume 1, which is searchable, does not appear to have the words Zengid, Turkish or Persian on page 152. Volume 2, which is searchable on amazon: "Zengids" are listed on pages 266,269,309, Turkish/Turkic does not appear on page 93, Persian does not appear on page 93. This issue can be ended with quotes that state the Zengids used these languages, else you are using original research.

According to Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, "To show that it is not original research, all material added to articles must be attributable to a reliable, published source appropriate for the content in question..", "This policy requires that all quotations and anything challenged or likely to be challenged be attributed in the form of an inline citation that directly supports the material.", "This policy applies to all material in the mainspace—articles, lists, sections of articles, and captions—without exception.". I eagerly await your "mind-numbing" quotes. --Kansas Bear (talk) 11:04, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

You're not much of a researcher. Try looking for the words Arabic and Syria. Carinae986 (talk) 14:31, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

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