Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 00:08, 3 April 2006

Koenigsberg Inhabitants Vital Statistics since 1500's

Despite centuries of recorded history there are constant crude attempts by some in Misplaced Pages to make it seem as if it was ever a Polish city

All inhabitants of Koenigsberg are recorded in birth, marriage death church records - Never in Polish language- MG

Write the same thing

I hate SOMEONE's manner of writing in every single article the same thing, which should be done once in one single entry. Not mention that it is false, NPOV and in contradiction to hisorical facts. I will change it, that is i will remove some paragraphs and instead i will put references to other entries, as it should be

Szopen -- many of us dislike it and are frustrated -- but as an English speaker, I know that in pre-20th century histories, we call it Koenigsberg. I think it's really important to make sure we leave most of what is there -- although it needs to be in better English and needs to be written better -- and add to it. I will be happy to help make sense of it, but think that much of your purposes can be achieved by filling in what's missing! JHK

ALso, I'm pretty sure we spell Ottocar Otocar or Otokar -- please don't link till I can check! Thanks

History

The Prussian Confederation was under the leadership of the Hanse cities Elbing, Danzig and Thorn. The Prussian Confederation had to appear before the emperor Frederick III in their case against the Teutonic Knights.

It was arranged that Casimir IV and his wife Elisabeth would grant protection to Prussia. However, Casimir IV tried to annex Prussia and war broke out against him (1453-1466). When the Teutonic Knights could not pay the German and Bohemian soldiers, the soldiers took the Marienburg (Malbork) castle in lieu of pay and sold it to the Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland. The Teutonic Knights moved out of Marienburg and moved their headquarters to Königsberg - Królewiec.

Why this is false: From this two paragraphs it appeared that German emperor ordered Grand Duke of Lithuania, to grant protection to Prussia, but instead the Polish king tried to annex it, so Prussian Confederacy had to fight it. Which is false.

1) Emperor completely backed Teutonic knights and banned Prussian Confederacy. 2) Leaders of Confederacy, although they had earlier contacts with Polish court, now go to Poland and asked king to incorporate whole Prussia into Poland. Polish king did that officially. 3) Prussian confederacy leader was nobleman Bazynski (von Baysen. Gdansk, Torun and Elblag were leading cities in confederacy, but confederacy was established by burghers, clergy, and noblemen. 4) Lithuania did not participate in war, except for few raids, and in fact was effectively sabotaging Poland. It was the Polish forces (plus confederacy), the taxes paid by Poles, and the Polish king who won the war.

right? szopen

Pretty much. Space Cadet

The German name on former German city Warschau was removed from Warsaw. I will not reinsert it, BUT: No Polish name in this article either! -- Nico 21:06, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Fine, but can You convincingly explain why? After all it was a part of Poland, everybody in the city spoke at least two languages (the Great Elector himself is known to have been fluent in Polish), numerous protestant Lithuanians and Poles were settling there in difficult times, Polish aristocracy and nobility held public offices, city representatives were sent to the Polish Sejm (house of representatives). So why is the Polish version so wrong here?
Space Cadet 22:57, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Kaliningrad's former names

The "former" names of Kaliningrad are:

1. 1255-1945 Königsberg
2. 1945-today Kaliningrad

I don't believe that the Polish and Lithuanian names can stand as "former names".

I agree, except from: The Soviet regime's name on the city was Kaliningrad from 1946, not 1945. PS: You should register a user name. -- Nico 06:33, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

This name war is silly. IMO, if ever in a city there was a minority of at least 10%, we should write the name of the city in that name. What do you think about this ? Bogdan 11:59, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I had a look at other encyclopedias, and as they mentioned the old Polish and Lithuanian names, I've reinserted them. My concern was that the intro shouldn't be too long - the city has an old name in Russian too , written in two ways (Kenigsperga and Kenigsberg, I think), which means that we eventually have to use at least 6 names (or more if we include names with Russian characters). In English the city is only known as Königsberg and Kaliningrad. Maybe the other names could be mentioned another place in the article? -- Nico 12:31, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I would say that Królewiec is simply a direct Polish translation of Königsberg; that's a natural way to refer to a city that has been next to your border for more than a thousand of years and even was under your feudal dominion during a part of that time. This is a different version of the same name, and it differs from silly translation of "Regiomontium" (again, the same meaning) only by the fact that it has been used by a large population for almost a millenium -- it's not a different name on its own.

On the other hand, Kaliningrad has completely no ties to the original name, it is a result of the Soviet practice of renaming cities/mountains/etc using names of their party chieftains. If not for Putin's glorification of USSR, it most likely would have already been restored to the former name, just like it was the case with Stalinogród/Katowice, Leningrad/St. Petersburg or Pik Stalina/Pik Kommunizma/Ismail Samani Peak. --KiloByte 00:58, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

New introduction

I think it would be better if the introduction was chronological, like this, because Königsberg and Kaliningrad in fact are two different cities, referred to as both Königsberg and Kaliningrad in the encyclopedia (and this article is mainly about Königsberg too):

Königsberg (in Polish Królewiec, Lithuanian Karaliaucius), a city on the east-southern coast of the Baltic Sea, was the former capital of East Prussia, after 1945 a part of Soviet and since 1946 known as Kaliningrad (Калининград) after Soviet official Mikhail Kalinin. Today it is the capital and main city of the Kaliningrad Oblast, a small Russian exclave between Poland and Lithuania.

-- Nico

Perfect! ;-) Bogdan 11:32, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Thanks. It would also be nice if other people gave their opinions. Cheers, Nico 12:31, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I've protected this page to stop this silly edit war of umlauts and bolding. Secretlondon 17:35, Dec 4, 2003 (UTC)

Please revert to a non Nico or My version of the page 24.2.152.139 17:36, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Nonsense. Changing Königsberg to "Konigsberg" is nothing but vandalism. I've asked a sysop to block 24.2.152.139 Nico 17:40, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

This coming from a known agenda. Look at Nicos users contributions there isint one major Polish City he didnt try to rename. He even renamed warsaw once. And no nico its proper. Because if you look at all the Texts it has Konigsberg and I also added a link to Kalinin and redited the page to refrence the Kaliningrad name more. Konigsberg stopped existing in 1945. It was bulldozed to the ground and renamed and rebuilt totaly as a new city(With new city boundaries). But some people still consider it Konigsberg huh Nico ?? 24.2.152.139 17:45, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Ridiculous. His lies are unworthy to comment, I've never tried to rename Warsaw, but YOU, User:Kommiec, is a known vandal, according to RickK "seems dedicated to make sure that any city with a German name must be known only by it's Polish name". Remember? Btw, there are no "pre-Nico/you"-version, since I just reverted to the previous version after you vandalized the page. Nico 17:51, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

If you remove the umlaut it should be Koeningsberg anyway - shouldn't it? Secretlondon 17:46, Dec 4, 2003 (UTC)

We have agreed on the use of diacritics long time ago. Besides, 24.2.152.139, why don't you wipe off "ó" in Królewiec, if you're so much into the English alphabet? Space Cadet 17:47, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Its in Italics and it refrences a foregin name. I dont see anything wrong with that. If he wants to say German: Königsberg in italics its fine with me 24.2.152.139 17:50, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Königsberg is English name when dealing with the pre-1946 city. Nico 17:54, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Whens the last time you seen ö in the english alpahabet??? 24.2.152.139 17:54, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Kids! To your rooms, now! Both of you! Space Cadet 17:57, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Please see the 1911 Britannica: - http://36.1911encyclopedia.org/K/KO/KONIGSBERG.htm

- It has been refrenced here before and articles have been corected on it. Please revert this page back to a decent version.24.2.152.139 18:00, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I'm coming in late, but for the benefit of future readers: The referenced Britannica text is a very badly OCR'ed version that has many errors even in the English text (it even skips a few lines at the end and continues in the middle of an unrelated later article. The OCR used does not recognize umlauts at all, as can be seen in the rendering of "Grune Brhcke" (a proper name, should be "Grüne Brücke"). To put this to rest, it would be nice if someone with a paper copy could double-check this.--Stephan Schulz 13:00, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

It is staying exactly as protected. Until you all calm down it is staying like this. Secretlondon 18:01, Dec 4, 2003 (UTC)

Your not being a npov sysop then. I showed my proof on the change wheres nicos ?? 24.2.152.139 18:02, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Nonsense - wherever I protected it one side would complain. I protected it where it was - I didn't revert. 30 seconds later it would have been your version. Secretlondon 18:12, Dec 4, 2003 (UTC)

In the 1911 Encyclopedia many Polish cities have other names than those you prefer! Nico 18:09, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

First Kaliningrad is not a Polish City. Second Poland didnt exist in 1911. So of course they have diffrent names. Kind of hard when everything was renamed to nationalize the poles to some other country.... Now Nico where is your Proof that Königsberg is an English name ??? 24.2.152.139 18:10, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Nico's proof is in every other encyclopedia, published in this century! Go to sleep, or go play soccer! Space Cadet 18:12, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

But Space Cadet this century just started and it is Kaliningrad :)

24.2.152.139 18:20, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Not when dealing with the pre-1946 city. It was never the capital of East Prussia as Kaliningrad. Nico 18:46, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I was going to update the reference to Poland and Lithuania and the EU, which in this article sounds entirely hypothetical, to mention that they will both be members as of May 2004. However, it's a protected page. Moncrief

Anyone who suggests that the city that existed prior to 1945 on the site of present-day Kaliningrad was ever generally known either to its inhabitants or to the rest of the world as anything other than Königsberg is either dreaming or an intellectual charlatan. Königsberg was founded as Königsberg in 1255 by the Teutonic Order and remained Königsberg until it was taken over (and largely destroyed) by the Soviets in 1945. The Polish and Lithuanian names mentioned above are simply translations of the German name, which means King's Mountain or King's Hill. (It was a rather ambitious term for a small hill.) Nowhere outside Poland and Lithuania was it ever known by these translated names, and their inclusion in this entry is a total red herring.

Space Cadet, what's your interest in this? This place was NEVER Polish. Before the Teutonic Knights arrived in the 13th century this area was inhabited by the Old Prussians. They were causing problems for Poland, which had other problems in the east to take care of. Did you forget? – That's why Conrad of Masovia asked the Order to come in and clean up on the nasty Old Prussians. And don't forget that the Teutonic Knights were a Catholic order and that their mission to the Baltic was endorsed by the papacy.

"It was a part of Poland" – Smieszny! Even the Lithuanian association with northEASTERN ex-East Prussia, where Lithuanians were a minority, is more substantial than your Polish dreams. (The first Lithuanian book, a catechism, was published in Königsberg.) Immanuel Kant is rolling over in his tomb in Kaliningrad when he hears you prattle on. Give it up! Treat everyone fairly! Get real! User:sca 29sep04

I'm just curious -- how is that two Soviet cosmonauts born in the mid-'30s, a decade before Königsberg was conquered and became Kaliningrad, are "from Königsberg"?

User:sca 29nov04

NPOV?

I think I'm finding the wording on the Soviet Union section somewhat objectionable: "At the end of World War II, in 1945, the city was annexed by the Soviet Union" I don't see similar wording being employed for any of the other consequences of the Yalta agreement. I'd rather say that,a s a part of such, it became a part of the Soviet Union (or rather, of the Russian Federation and therefore of the USSR, which would explain more clearly why, after the collapse of the Communist regime it remains part of Russia).

"uch of the historical records were destroyed during the communist period. The communists tried to create the idea that Kaliningrad was historically a Slavic land." I'd like to see proof of this. Many of the records perished in the war (as the offspring of an expatriate Polish family who spent some time looking for his own family records, I should know), and the direct link posited between communism and Slavic nationalism is unduly provocative.

The description of the partial razing of the city and the treatment former residents received needs fixing, too. Even if it was not a top example of humanitarian action, the qualifications go quite beyond what's been said about American interventions in Nicaragua or El Salvador, for example.

In short, I'm planning to rewrite some of this. However, as it used to be a hot topic, I thought I'd check the rest of the usual editors before. --Taragui 08:21, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

+_+_+_+_+_+_+

This text was edited out. Puting it here for discussion purposes.

"Many surviving expellees and refugees in Germany joined the Landsmannschaft Ostpreussen, whereas many other former inhabitants were scattered around the world. The Soviets destroyed many of the remnants of German and Prussian culture, including the ruins of the castle where the House of Soviets was built in its place. Though much of the historical records were also destroyed during the communist period, the city museum of Duisburg contains a small collection dealing with the history of Königsberg."

As mentioned in the editing note - unsourced, giving serious occusations in a onesided manner

--oshistory 3 July 2005

What exactly do you doubt: that German/Prussian culture was destroyed there ? or the Königsberg Castle ? --wojsyl (talk) 3 July 2005 19:04 (UTC)

"Kaliningrad was particularly important to the USSR, and is now to Russia, as a Baltic port that is ice-free year round."

A reminder that Kronshtadt, Leningrad, Tallinn, Riga and Klaipeda also were Soviet Baltic sea ports during the same period, so "particular" may be oversugarcoating.

--oshistory 3 July 2005

How about removing this sentence, which imho is disputable. --wojsyl (talk) 3 July 2005 19:04 (UTC)

Votes for deletion/Königsburg - survival

See Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Königsburg for voting and discussion

Courtland 17:44, 2005 Apr 3 (UTC)

Exclave

Surely it has been an exclave of Russia since it became part of the Federation (presumably 1945)? Bornintheguz 10:53, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Bridges

Isn't there the famous Königsberg bridge puzzle? Isn't it worthy to go here? --IvanP 20:21, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

................................

Bonkers arguments.

A very interesting discussion page. Some of the suggestions being made are simply fatuous. Konigsberg was never anything other than a Teutonic Knights/German city until 1947 when it was formally annexed by the Soviet Union. Stalin had said that he wanted it for its port which did not ice up like Russian ones. As no-one was in a position to refuse him what could anyone do? This is similar to the arbitrary placing of East Prussia, Pomerania, and Silesia, &c., in the hands of the Lublin Polish communist 'government'. Truman (read his Memoirs - "Years of Decisions")had already protested (at Potsdam) that zones of occupation had already been agreed and that Poland was not one of those to whom zones had been allotted, only the Soviet Union. Stalin just ignored him. It is also interesting how the European Union, UN, USA, etc., bang on about ethnic cleansing today, whilst they simply sat back and accepted the Soviet diktat to ethnically cleanse 10 million Germans from their ancient homelands.

I note also that someone calling himself 'Space Cadet' insists on inserting into the text on Konigsberg that the Teutonic Knights "exterminated" the ancient Prussian population. This is an old Polish myth attempting to demonise the Order. (Not unlike the 1938 Soviet film "Alexander Nevsky" where the knights of the Order are simply called 'Germans' and they are busy throwing babies into fires). There is no concrete evidence of this in any reputable publications (notably Prof.Eric Williamson's brilliant "The Northern Crusades"). In wars and campaigns, notably in the Middle Ages, many were killed in battle, and the heathen Prussians fought well. But extermination was not on the books of a religious Order acting under the authority of a Papal Bull, and especially when virtually every campaign had at least as many non-German knights in it as Germans.

We certainly have a serious problem with the Space Cadet poster. He blatantly attempts to rewite history, and moreover he is obviously not an English speaker because his grammar is appalling. Worse still, when it is corrected, he re-edits it back into the previous awful mess. Can something not be done about this individual who still talks about "western propaganda"?

ChristchurchChristchurch 18:36, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

................................

Alexandr Nevski fought against Livonian Brothers of the Sword. Xx236 11:29, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Brandenburger Tor in Koenigsberg?

The external link takes the reader to Berlin. There is nothing in the Brandenburger-Tor-in-Berlin article that provides a clue as to why this link may be relevant in the context of the Königsberg article. Does Königsberg have its own Brandenburger Tor?

Yes, Königsberg have had Brandenburger-Tor, and it still exists in modern Kaliningrad. See picture

Kneiphof 13:21, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Many thanks! Have supplemented your constructive approach by removing the link to the Brandenburger Tor in Berlin from the Koenigsberg article and instead provided there a link to the pic you so kindly provided. Hope that's ok by you. 22:10, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Possibility of reverting to the old name

The article mentions that there have been ongoing public debates on whether to follow the trend of reverting to pre-Communist names (e.g. Titograd and Leninakan). Can anyone add more on these developments? Very fascinating! =J //Big Adamsky 09:24, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

There are no considerations or discussions for renaming Kaliningrad. It is fine as it is. --Kuban kazak 21:40, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Soviet Union

Kaliningrad was a part of the Russian Republic in the Soviet Union. It is why Russia inherited it, Xx236 11:17, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

The most optimistic see a future where Kaliningrad could become a "Hong Kong of the Baltic Sea".

And I could become Arnold Schwarzenegger but I don't excersise exactly like Russia doesn't allow Kaliningrad's economy to grow. Xx236 14:15, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree completely. Just check the BBC article which is linked to at the bottom of the page. We should incorporate some of that info into the article. Russia isn't paying enough attention to the region. Stallions2010 23:29, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree (and removed the section) - because the same could be written about many cities and regions. E.g. some imagines Krasnoyarsk Krai as a region of future, others have arguements why Chukotka could be one (Abramovich, etc.); every city wants to be more important than it is, and it is not only restricted to Russia - it is so elsewhere in Eastern Europe and probably the world; the cities creates campaigns where they promotes their position and hires scientists that claims the city could become a "regional capital" and so on. If we will write that about every city about which there are such opinions, we would have to write that about every major city or region. Besides, Misplaced Pages Is Not A Crystal Ball as the policy says. Burann 12:56, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The name

The Polish, Lithuanian and Latin names might be written in brackets, as that is useful and a common practice in Misplaced Pages (example - Vilnius article, articles on other Eastern European cities). It is useful for some old maps and such. However, I must note, that an attempt to write "Krolewiec" everywhere in brackets after Koenigsberg, or even "Kroliewec (known in German as Koenigsberg)", is completely not appropriate - the city was never called that way, it did not belong to the Poland directly, its main language and nobility was always (prior to World War 2) German. Therefore, it is incorrect to claim that either Kroliewec, Karaliaucius or Regiomontum were historical names. I reinstate the mentioning of the names myself, but please don't add "Kroliewec" everywhere, this is not logical. Kaiser 747 10:56, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

While I do not object the presenting of these names in the way they are presented now, I believe this issue is not worth all these revert wars. However, currently this issue is perhaps the place where Misplaced Pages is the most not in order. I mean, yes, the cities which you have noted indeed has Russian, Polish and so on names of them written in brackets. But, e.g. Riga does not even though there lives much more Russians in Riga than does in e.g. Vilnius or Liepaja for that matter. Arguably, historically Riga was more imprtant for the Russian Empire as well. Now however it seems the situation is like that: there are a few people from almost ebvery nation who tries to remove foreign language names from their cities and add their language names to the foreign cities. Currently, Polish have been the most active editors here - thus we have Polish names for Kaliningrad Oblast cities (even ones where Polish never lived), Latvian, Lithuanian, Estonian, Belarusian, Ukrainian cities and so on. I think revert wars definitely are not the solution here - a one and cooperative decition on policy must be done. We can do a vote in this talk page, but it would not be very useful, as then it would be only about Kaliningrad and would be misinterpreted similarly to the Gdansk/Danzig vote. I guess we need a policy for what names would qualify for brackets in general; I'd guess that would have to be related to how much the culture of that nation flourished in the city, how much people of that ethnicity lives/lived in the city, but I am not sure, other opinions would also be interesting. Burann 12:52, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it is more better to simply add a heading in the history of the city about former names including Koenigsberg (maybe leave that in the heading as well) and be done with it. Have a look at Minsk.--Kuban Cossack 16:45, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I'll let it be, because as I said I don't want to fight a revert war on such issue. However, in my opinion, the previous version is more typical not only to Misplaced Pages but to encyclopedias in general (e.g. Encyclopaedia Britannica), it takes less space than entire chapter on names and such; it seems that for some city articles such chapters were written in the past, but in some cases it was decided after all to use the more typical version with brackets. And I looked at Minsk - it has Russian and Polish names written in brackets, even though Minsk was never a part of Poland... Burann 18:17, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

"was never a part of Poland"? Huh! --Ghirla 18:24, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

In the interbellum Minsk was in the Soviet Union. Before the Partitions of Poland it was in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Here is exactly what is disputed for the accuracy of the Polish name in thsi article as well: it seems the Poles considers *whole* Commonwealth, its both fiefs (Courland, East Prussia) and even the Courlandian colonies in Tobago (New Courland) and Gambia to have been Poland. This is, in my opinion, clearly wrong. East Prussia was as much Poland as e.g. Canada, Australia or other Commonwealth Realms are United Kingdom. Burann 18:33, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Ducal Prussia - yes! Courland - somewhat. Moldavia - no! Tobago and Gambia - try to be serious! Space Cadet 17:48, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Regarding previous edit: Kenigsberg is just a retransliteration of Кенигсберг, which is, in turn, a transliteration of Königsberg. To my knowledge, Кенигсберг was an official name briefly between the capture of the city and before it was renamed Kaliningrad, but prior to 1945 the German name Königsberg was official one. Burann 16:46, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (geographic names) is a long-running attempt to come to a standard for city name inclusion. Please feel free to contribute your own thoughts to the discussion. Olessi 17:04, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Merger

This article has a lot in common with Kaliningrad Oblast, perhaps they should be brought together. If not a distinction should be made as to how the two articles differ in subject. 194.106.54.42 08:58, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

That article is about a region, this one is about the capital city of that region; it is not an eligible merger. Some information that is about whole region might be moved from here to there or adapted so that it would primarilly concern the city rather than whole area though. Alcatel 10:26, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Opposed, same reasons. `'mikka (t) 18:52, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Königsberg vs. Kaliningrad

The title for this comment is misleading - it's not the same as the previous name wars. Here, I am saying that we use the current name of the city more often. I understand that it was previously named Königsberg, and that in the history section of that time the name of the city should be Königsberg rather than Kaliningrad. But on the more current basis, we should be using Kaliningrad. For example, the "Famous People from Königsberg/Kaliningrad" section should just be "Famous People from Kaliningrad". I've corrected this and several other things. After all, Kaliningrad is a Russian city now; the people speak Russian, the religion is mainly Russian Orthodox, and the city is on Russian soil, not German. We should pay respects to the old Germanic history of the city, but also realize that times have changed, and the city is now firmly Russian, never to be German again. An interesting thing about myself is that my ancestors came to Texas from Königsberg and Memel, German immigrants who came in the 1800s. But I know that Kaliningrad and Klaipėda are now Russian and Lithuanian respectively, and shall be so from now on. Please put your input on this subject. Thanks. Stallions2010 17:21, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean "never to be German again"? Your ancestors must be turning in their graves. Schwartz und Weiss 18:32, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Logically, I don't see where it will turn back. The former German sections of Poland are now firmly Polish (although technically they were Polish in the first place), as are the sections of Russia and Lithuania. How will it become German again? If Germany just decides to take over the land, the Russian citizens of Kaliningrad will retaliate. They don't want that to happen. And on an international level, governments will condemn this act all around the world. And Russia isn't just going to tell Germany, "Here, take this," and hand over Kaliningrad like that. So I think it's firmly Russian now. Stallions2010 23:26, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Logically, you're right, of course. But with this kind of ancestry you have to have faith. Schwartz und Weiss 00:25, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

It will be just "Famous people from the city" from now on, so that this revert war would end. As I imagine the Poles would probably add in Kroliewec in that sentence soon otherwise and such. Burann 19:14, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Very funny! Are you trying to be cute or something? The Poles can speak for themselves. Save your rude insinuations for your retarded friends, if you have any. And it's spelled Królewiec, not that ridiculous medley of letters, you came up with. Space Cadet 00:08, 3 April 2006 (UTC)