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User:Luciferwildcat

Mass removal of free license tags from files

It looks like Fastily just mass removed several hundred free license tags from images on en.wiki within the span of a few minutes, mostly under his alternate account FSII. This seems to be based on a misunderstanding of how free licenses interact with copyrights. I left a message on Fastily's talk page but haven't gotten any response. It's 3 a.m. on Christmas morning here, so I'm not going to be able to follow-up on this. If someone else could look into it, it would be appreciated. Thanks! Kaldari (talk) 11:26, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

• Good Lord, that was an awful lot of edits in a short space of time.—S Marshall T/C 11:35, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

• These are images tagged with two or more contradictory tags e.g. . The few I looked at are photos of copyrighted sculptures, possibly being non-free derivative works in countries that don't have freedom of panorama. MER-C 13:52, 25 December 2011 (UTC) I indented your comment to make it more readable. Nyttend (talk) 13:56, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

However, Fastily's edits completely ignore the benefit of having the free CC licenses. They're added to say "I release my rights to this image under ___ license." Wait until the subjects of these images are PD or until a freedom of panorama law gets passed — or modify these images so that the subjects are either missing or are de minimis — and you suddenly have a freely licensed image. Remove the CC license template in such a situation and you have an image that's all-rights-reserved despite the lack of an issue with the subject. Nyttend (talk) 13:56, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Although not precisely the same situation, File:JackLondon ADaughterOfTheSnows.jpg is a good example of how these license tags are useful. Someone uploaded a self-taken photo of a book cover and tagged it as non-free; another image of a different cover for the same book was later uploaded in its place. The original cover was wrongly tagged (it's PD-text), but because the photographer didn't say anything about releasing his/her rights into the public domain or under a free license, we can't use that image of a PD original. Regardless of the context, it is harmful to remove statements by uploaders that their own rights over an image are freely licensed or in the public domain. Nyttend (talk) 16:06, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

I highly disagree with the idea of putting free tags on any sort of non-free images --Merry Christmas from Guerillero 16:14, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree there is a problem here. We have many images that are derivative works with multiple copyright authors. For example, in the US, if you take a photograph of a 3D sculpture, then both the photographer and the sculptor are considered to have creative rights to the photo. We need to acknowledge both on the image description page. Template:Photo of art was recently created as a generic wrapper for cases like this. It allows a photographer to say their creative rights are freely licensed even though the underlying work remains non-free. Removing the photographer's statement simply makes the work violate the photographer's rights. Many of these need to be reverted. Due to the bot-like way this was accomplished, I would support reverting all of them so we can discuss them further. Perhaps we ultimately need a different way of handling this that makes the issue clearer, but we need to respect the rights of all parties that legally have an interest in a photo. Dragons flight (talk) 18:42, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

It's kind of ironic, but by removing the photographer's statement of free access to the photo (from the photography standpoint), you've actually made them now be copyright violations when they weren't before. Silverseren 18:55, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm concerned that almost no one actually appears to have read up on derivative works before coming here; there are many contradictory phrases above within statements and even amongst statements. Everyone, please, don't assert your own opinions as copyright law. To clarify - a file cannot be free and non-free at the same time. When applied to non-free works, the copyright of a derivative does indeed belong to the original copyright holder(s) and the party who created the derivative. HOWEVER, the party who created a work derived from a creative work is not permitted to license this photo however they wish; the derivative of a copyrighted work may be licensed under the same license as the original work, or under a more restrictive license. By releasing a derivative under a less restrictive license, the party that created the derivative effectively infringes upon the intellectual property rights of the original copyright holder(s). -FASTILY 21:39, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

The whole idea that the creator of, say, a statue owns the copyright of a tourist's photo of the statue is absurd...but, them's the law. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:06, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)As I said on User talk:Fastily I do not like the idea of having photos as both free and unfree. I suggested that we could create or tweak a template to something like this {{Photo of <statue/art/whatever>|<Non-free-use-template>|<License for photo>|expiry=<year when the statue/art/whatever will be PD-old>}}. Then the photo can be unfree untill the expiry year and after that the free license could apply. --MGA73 (talk) 22:10, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Any time I have ever uploaded a photo of a statue, it's been zapped as violating "no freedom of panorama". I'd like to know what has changed, if anything, to where a pic like File:Athletes monument.jpg is now allowed? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:56, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

If the statue is not free then any photos of it will be deleted as a copyvio unless you manage to produce a fair use rationale that is accetable. --MGA73 (talk) 23:38, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

The lack of "freedom of panorama" in the US overrides any attempt at a "fair use" rationale - or at least that was the explanation at the time. This sounds like the usual shifting sand of what's acceptable in wikipedia, which is why I don't upload pictures of statues anymore. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:15, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

No, you're overreacting. Let's work with public statues in the US , where such works are protected by freedom of paronama. Since it is impossible to take a free image of that image(*) there's no free replacement. Thus you just need to show that the picture meets NFC policy. I'm 99% sure there are articles on these works of art with photos or the like. You can't use them decoratively - so, we can't use a statue of John Q Public on an article about JQP unless there is notable discussion about the statue itself.

(*) That said, I have come to understand that the freedom of panorama rules apply to the photographer. If a photographer from a country with very lax FOP (photos of art in public places are not derivative works), then as I have been told, that photo can be free. (Yes, this screams to be very odd in copyright law). That doesn't mean that we can expect a foreign wikipedian editor to easily make a free photo of a US statue, ergo a non-free of the statue is not easily replaced by a free image. --MASEM (t) 01:30, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Time for someone to file an RFC? (Why is it Christmas always somehow has a row? XD )Sfan00 IMG (talk) 23:11, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

As long as the purpose of the RFC is to figure out what the rules are. I would have to agree with Fastily here: Any alleged copyright of the photo is superceded by the artist's copyright on the work of art shown in the photo. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:20, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Copyrights do not "supercede" each other, they are cumulative. Regardless, the {{Photo of art}} template needs to be changed to clarify the issues. It should not, however, be mass removed from images (which is in many cases of violation of the uploader's licensing agreement). Kaldari (talk) 23:40, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Fastily, your response implied that they were all derivative works of copyrighted works, but you did not say that. Did you make that determination on all of these? North8000 (talk) 23:37, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

I think they will have been if they were statues on US soil. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:23, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I am not a lawyer, however I have studied US copyright law and studied many of the important court rulings on copyright. A lack of freedom of panorama is not more restrictive than a routine copyright. It merely means that ordinary copyright does apply. A photo of a copyrighted statue is a derivative work. In plain English this means the image is in effect controlled by two copyrights, the photographer's copyright and the sculptor's copyright. Misplaced Pages should specifically support the attachment of two licensing sections. To use the image we need to check once against the sculptor's copyright and once against the photographer's copyright. We can use the image if we pass both copyright checks. The fact that a photographer grants an express license is very valuable. It brings us back to considering just the sculptor's copyright according to standard non-free fair use consideration. In fact a photo of a statute is much easier to qualify for fair use, as compared to a photo of an album cover or other non-free image. A photo only "copies" a portion of the statute, a photo is a significant transformation from a statue, a photo does not replace the market for the statute, and the statue only composes a portion of the photo. These four things weigh strongly in favor of fair use. The case for fair use is grossly tilted in our favor once you consider the fact that an encyclopedia is an educational use. Images of statues should have a far easier threshold-of-justification than the use of album covers or other non-free images. BTW, the nationality of the photographer is not relevant. Alsee (talk) 04:54, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Bot war

There is now an edit war over the hundreds of images changed by Fastily. I would like to suggest that everyone cool their guns and we discuss how to resolve this situation without just reverting each other. My suggestion would be to revise the functionality of {{Photo of art}} as suggested above and restore it to the images in question. This should satisfy both sides of the debate and keep everyone's rights and intentions intact regarding the images. Kaldari (talk) 23:58, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Thankfully a cease-fire seems to be in place now. Kaldari (talk) 00:31, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Tip of the iceberg, then?

Question: if Fastily's assertion is correct, does this not hold equally for photographs of designed objects like phones, cars, jewellery, or indeed just about any designed object? If this is the case, doesn't that mean tens of thousands of images here and at Commons should be retagged, and many of them deleted? If this isn't the case, what is the evidence that sculpture enjoys more protection than do other designed objects? Testovergian (talk) 00:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Welcome to the world of media files on WMF projects. We've been having these issues for years now. -FASTILY 00:28, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't think Freedom of panorama restrictions apply to telephones, which are utilitarian objects. Statues are works of art and are typically unique. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:30, 26 December 2011 (UTC)::(edit conflict) Yeah, it isn't actually. I should have been more clear, sorry. I agree with the fact that there are many problematic images, but not necessarily with the images above. -FASTILY 00:33, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

In most countries, utilitarian objects are explicitly not covered by copyright. Kaldari (talk) 00:35, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

One could argue the iPhone and the Macbook are works of carefully-designed art. elle _{vécut heureuse} (be free) 02:33, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I note the creative way that File:Group of smartphones.jpg is tagged. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:41, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Freedom of panorama is a red herring here. If I take a picture of anything that is copyright, I create a derivative work, and will interact with the copyright held by the creator of the object I photographed. All freedom of panorama gives is the ability to make a prescribed type of image of an object in prescribed setting, which is not considered to violate the copyright held by the creator of the object. So in the UK I can take pictures of statues in a garden, embroideries in a church or daleks in a museum, without violating the copyright of the creator of the statues, embroideries or daleks. In the US, I can take pictures of architecture, provided I'm standing on the public highway, but i can't take pictures of statues. In France, I can't take pictures of the Eiffel Tower, because the lighting scheme is considered copyright. If I create a derivative work, copyright vests in both me and the creator of the thing I photographed. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:40, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Freedom of panorama is NOT a red herring. It's the same situation as what I've described. Just to be clear, there's nothing to stop me from taking pictures of statues in the US. I just can't publish them without permission. And before I knew about any of these details, someone zapped a statue photo I had uploaded, saying, "There is no freedom of panorama in the US." Nothing about "fair use", but only, "You can't do this. It's gone. See ya." ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:44, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

This photo of File:Honuswagnerstatue.JPG is alleged to be public domain, yet it fails the "freedom of panorama" test. I'd like to know how Fastily missed that one. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:51, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Er...because it's on Commons. Commons has a robust disregard for all limitations on freedom of panorama - the position taken by Commons is that if it's in a public place, it's available to be photographed.Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:08, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Are you saying that if I upload my own picture of the Wagner statue, directly to commons, I can similary claim it as "free content"??? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:12, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Also, if your statement is true, why does File:Athletes monument.jpg say, "Do not copy this file to Wikimedia Commons. The subject of this image is still protected by copyright. Commons does not accept 'fair-use' images"? By your argument, the File:Athletes monument.jpg should be uploaded directly to commons with a free license, just as the Wagner statue photo was. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:15, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Don't bite my head off - I didn't invent the rules in this crazy house!! This is what Commons has to say on FOP - what it does in practice is apply the German law, so if the object is permanently mounted and visible from the street, you can photograph it without violating the creator's copyright. Photos of statues on US soil contain a copyright element from the original work, and so cannot be released under a Misplaced Pages compatible free license. They can be used under a claim of fair use - but the person who took the photo would need to have permission from the creator of the object to make the reproduction, or it may be regarded as having been made illegally. Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:21, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't intend to bite your head off, I'm just trying to figure out what the rules are. I thought I knew, but this throws a wrench into it. I have a couple of photos of the Wagner statue. If I upload them to commons, with the same license as the other guy's Wagner statue photo, will it be out of reach of the deletionists? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:25, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Following up on the side discussion at the Delta talk page, I'm hopeful we can get an explicit ruling from commons, as there's no point in my uploading something if it's going to be rejected sooner or later. We'll see! ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:33, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

The US does have freedom of panorama (s120 of the Copyright Law) but it only applies to architecture. Statues are copyright under s102. There was some kind of legal case in the US that established beyond doubt that the creator of a statue has a right to assert his legal position where profit from a photo of his statue is concerned. This means that in the US, if you take a photo of a statue without permission, you may have unlawfully created a derivative work (s103), which is why the pictures keep getting zapped. s103 also explains why people are up in arms - if I take an arty shot of a Henry Moore sculpture in the Yorkshire sculpture park - which I can do perfectly legally under the UK freedom of panorama law - I hold the copyright in the arty shot, and it is important to the pedia to know whether I have released it under a license, released it pd, or have reserved all rights.Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:04, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I understand that the copyright of objects (not fixed works) depends on the utility. A car's shape with a generic paint job cannot by copyrighted because that's a utilitian shape. --MASEM (t) 01:33, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Basically, a "work of art" would be copyright. A non-art work would be trademarked but not copyrighted. Complete non-lawyer opinion from somebody who thinks that the whole "a picture is copyvio" is stupid. The first thing we'll do is round up all the tourists in Paris taking snapshots of the Eiffel Tower. Then we'll turn our attention to the lawyers. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:04, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

A non-art work would generally not be trademarked. Trademark is for words, phrases, brands, etc., not for things (we won't talk about trade dress and, of course, there are exceptions to what I'm saying). The Eiffel Tower couldn't enjoy copyright protection under U.S. law. It was created too long ago. As for the lawyers, we could try copyrighting them but they probably wouldn't satisfy the originality threshold.--Bbb23 (talk) 02:13, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• If copyright worked the way editors here seem to think it works, then I'd sue the safety camera partnership any time they took a GATSO picture of my car. I'd be getting rich by driving past speed cameras at 100mph every time. Seriously: the commons view is correct. If something's in a public place and it gets photographed, then the photographer owns the copyright in that picture and he doesn't share it with anyone else. A photograph of the Eiffel Tower wouldn't be copyright of anyone but the photographer, even if it had been erected yesterday in the States, because it's in a public place.—S Marshall T/C 02:18, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

The new arty-farty lighting rig on the Eiffel Tower is copyright according to les Frogs legale. The tower itself is pd. As with many things, the issue comes if you try to make money from it - there's no point pursuing all the tourists with cameraphones, and the government writes the laws..... Elen of the Roads (talk) 02:21, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Also, you don't own the copyright on your car. Elen of the Roads (talk) 02:22, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I thought the special interests wrote the laws.--Bbb23 (talk) 02:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) If anyone owns the copyright to your car, which is more than dubious, it's unlikely to be you unless you painted something on the car. I suggest you paint a fancy picture of you flipping the finger at the camera. Then, don't forget to register the painting with the copyright office so you can sue properly. Then, try to find a federal judge who won't look at you like you're crazy. :-) --Bbb23 (talk) 02:25, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Elen, if it worked the way you say, then all I'd need to do is draw a picture on the side and write (c) S Marshall 2011. I'd be quids in. I'm sorry, but confident though you seem to be of your position, it's entirely mistaken.—S Marshall T/C 02:25, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Bbb23, your position is also entirely mistaken. Besides, there's no need to register a picture with the copyright office to claim copyright in it.—S Marshall T/C 02:27, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

You really need to read more carefully what I wrote. I was talking about suing, not about "claim copyright." "You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work." ().--Bbb23 (talk) 16:24, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're taking as 'my position.' Works of art that are copyright are protected in the US even if they are on the public street. See . Try for an explanation of the position in other countries. It affects your ability to take a photograph of it and publish or sell your photograph. Incidentally, as traffic enforcement agencies in the US don't routinely publish photographs taken with their cameras, it isn't an issue in the US, which requires publication to activate a great deal of its copyright law. In other countries, the government makes the law, and even if it has no freedom of panorama, you can bet it has an exemption for speed cameras.Elen of the Roads (talk) 02:34, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Firstly I don't think that 'les froges legale' is quite appropriate phraseology. However, this was a copyright case from last year that resolved in favour of the sculptor. John lilburne (talk) 09:30, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

No, I'm sure there's a couple of diacritics missing :) Thanks for the case link - I knew it involved a war sculpture and a postage stamp, but hadn't turned up the actual judgement. Pages 7 (bottom) to 12 (top) contain an excellent discussion of transformative fair use. Page 24 (down at the bottom) contains a concise summary of US freedom of panorama - the copyright law does not include the right to prevent the making, distributing, or public display of pictures, paintings, photographs, or other pictorial representations of the work, if the building in which the work is embodied is located in or ordinarily visible from a public place In other circumstances - if it is not an architectural work, if it is not ordinarily visible from a public place, then the copyright holder has the power to forbid the making of derivative works (s102 of the Act), hence there is a concern that the derivative work may contain a contribution from the original work that was obtained illegally, ie. without consent (does not necessarily imply breaking and entering to get the image). Page 4 (at the bottom) confirms that the person who took the photo (which was not taken illegally as photography at the location was permitted) is entitled to his own copyright protection in his photograph as a derivative work which was what started this whole thing off - Fastily's bot removing the second license whereby the photographer releases his own copyright in the image as far as he is able, given the status of the content for which there exists another copyright holder. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:03, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Personal attacks

Fastily is now personally attacking me on his talk page. This sort of behavior is surprising from an administrator. Kaldari (talk) 00:38, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I recommend not posting there again at the moment - not worth the hassle. In the meantime, Fastily does need to calm down. This is a complicated area and needs more discussion. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:43, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

The reason it's complicated is because of the wishy-washy attitude about images which is apparently unique to the English wikipedia. The other wikipedias, last I had heard, don't allow anything except free content. English wikipedia "sort of" allows non-free, and "sort of" doesn't. When you try to have it both ways, these kinds of battles will inevitably erupt. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:47, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

The reason English Misplaced Pages policy is "apparently unique" is probably because the US concept of Fair Use is rather alien to most countries. To the extent that foreign users are familiar with their country's copyright law, the knowledge they have is that non-free images are always illegal to use (in their country). They naturally (but mistakenly) believe non-free images are always be illegal to use here. But there's an even bigger problem. US Fair Use is very subtle and complex. Fair use is inherently "wishy washy", to use your term. Even if foreign uses did realize that their servers are US based and therefore non-free images are sometimes permissible, foreign language communities will generally lack the expertise to make use of US Fair Use in a safe manner. Alsee (talk) 05:53, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

The following major Wikipedias allow some images that are neither freely licensed nor known to be in the public domain, but are legally allowed under policies such as "fair use": Czech, German, Greek, French, Italian, Japanese, Russia, Thai, Chinese (among others). However, in some cases the exemptions allowed are much more narrow than allowed in English. For example, the German exemptions relate narrowly to very old images of unknown authorship that are probably in the public domain but can't be ascertained for sure due to unknown authorship / copyright ownership. For another example, Japanese exemptions deal with certain freedom of panorama issues that would be free under Japanese law but require a fair use justification under US law. Though English Misplaced Pages policy is more expansive than most, a few wikis, notably Greek, Italian, Thai, and Chinese, are quite similar to the English Misplaced Pages. Dragons flight (talk) 07:10, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Moving on

Unless someone has a better idea, I'm going to ask the WMF legal department for their opinion on Tuesday and then update the {{Photo of art}} template accordingly. In the meantime, I would suggest we all take a break from the issue and try to enjoy the holidays. Kaldari (talk) 01:01, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I, for one, would very much like to hear what the WMF has to say about File:Athletes monument.jpg and also about the allegedly "free" photo of Honus Wagner, File:Honuswagnerstatue.JPG, which to me looks like it should be labeled as non-free just as the Athletes monument. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:04, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

The issue is actually pretty simple if you lay it out right. A photograph of a copyrighted sculpture is a derivative work of that sculpture. This means that the photographer has copyright in the photo that is subject to the sculptor's copyright, but not defined by it or limited to it. If the photographer did not have a new copyright in the photograph, it would be just a copy and not a derivative (as it would be if the original work were just a 2D painting) and we wouldn't have to worry about the photographer at all. But because a photograph of a sculpture in situ necessarily involves creative expression on the part of the photographer (choice of angle, composition, lighting) just the same as a photo of any 3D object, it is a derivative with two layers of rights we must be concerned with.

What is confusing Fastily and others is that, for use within Misplaced Pages, we must treat the files as nonfree because of the unlicensed copyrighted elements of these derivatives (i.e., the sculpture depicted) and so usage must satisfy WP:NFCC. But that doesn't take care of all the issues.

We must ALSO demonstrate that the copyrightable elements created by the photographer are freely licensed, by displaying the photographer's chosen licensing terms. And this also advertises to reusers that, not only is the sculpture not freely licensed, but this particular depiction of it is FURTHER subject to the GFDL or CC license. So even if someone has a legal fair use claim to use an image of a Picasso sculpture, to use MY derivative photograph they also must comply with MY licensing terms. Otherwise, they must ALSO have a fair use claim regarding my particular photograph. Similarly, if we fail to demonstrate that a derivative author freely licensed his contributions, then we must satisfy NFCC TWICE--for the underlying nonfree work AND for the particular nonfree photograph of it.

Baseball Bugs' File:Honuswagnerstatue.JPG should illustrate these points well. The sculpture is presumably copyrighted, which makes this a derivative (no FOP for sculptures in the U.S.), and so yes, nonfree within Misplaced Pages. Crop or black out the sculpture, however, and you have just a photograph of the building behind it, no longer a derivative. There is clearly a contribution made by the photographer above and beyond the sculptor's work. And if the sculpture were to lapse into the public domain, the photograph would then be solely subject to the photographer's rights.

In sum, in the case of derivatives, we need to document both that NFCC is met for the underlying nonfree work and that the derivative author has chosen a particular free license for THEIR portion of the work. I personally think Template:Photo of art accurately reflects this at present and places an appropriate emphasis on the file as nonfree while also acknowledging the derivative author's rights, but I'd be happy to discuss any proposed changes on that template's talk page. postdlf (talk) 16:05, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

That seems to me to be an excellent summary as I understand the matter. But this "dual" copyright situation can easily cause us a more prosaic problem, which I think is what Fastily was trying to fix. Take a look at the bottom of File:Athletes monument.jpg: since the file is tagged with both {{cc-by-3.0}} (for the photograph) and {{Non-free 3D art}} (for the sculpture), the image is in both Category:All free media and Category:All non-free media. The former is, of course, incorrect because the image as a whole is not free. Anomie⚔ 17:14, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the category issue is also what caused User:Sfan00 IMG to create the photo of art template. I think the best solution would be to create derivative-specific categories, something like "non-free derivatives with GFDL elements", to the extent we need that much detail in the categories. My main concern is making sure everything is set forth properly on the image description page. The categories can just follow whatever scheme is best for whatever mainentance purpose the image categories are used, even if that means just categorizing them as nonfree without further distinction. postdlf (talk) 17:23, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Back in the day when I was an FS director, we made people have a copyright tag for all parts of a sound file. Could we do this with statues to show that dirivitve works are 100% free? If you think this statue thing is hell, you need to ignore sound files. In the worst cases, there could be up to 5 people's copyrights in play; underlying coposision, arrangment, perfomance, recording, audio engineering. --Guerillero | My Talk 19:06, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• This lengthy discussion (which amounts to nothing because no one above can be verified as a copyright lawyer) could have been avoided if one user just emailed Geoff Brigham and everyone else waited a couple days. Disputes over legal matters crack me up because it's usually a bunch of overexcited people without relevant credentials trying to be right and prove everyone else wrong. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 23:17, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

  You're assuming that the WMF will provide a useful answer. Historically, the WMF rarely gets involved in copyright issues until their is a complaint by an outside party. The reasons for this are pretty obvious. If they implicitly "authorize" something and they are wrong, then they can become liable for it, whereas if they simply let the community handle it, then the Foundation is mostly protected from liability. Perhaps Geoff provide a helpful response in this case, but anyone who has been on Misplaced Pages long enough realizes that most copyright issues are handled by volunteers. Many of those volunteers are self-educated on copyright (including some who routinely deal with copyright issues in their professional lives). A few volunteers also happen to be attorneys. Maybe the WMF will be helpful here, but historically a position of "wait for the WMF response" on copyright issues tends to be unhelpful more often than not. Dragons flight (talk) 23:57, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• I agree that the legal discussions on Misplaced Pages are often bizarre. However, it's more complicated than you (Fetchcomms) make it out to be. First, there may be lawyers involved in this discussion, but they just don't reveal they are lawyers. Second, they may or may not be copyright lawyers, which, of course, is a complicated specialty. Finally, a copyright lawyer may have credentials, but that doesn't mean they are right on any given legal point, which is, of course, why lawyers argue constantly. Sort of like Misplaced Pages itself. :-) --Bbb23 (talk) 17:03, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

• Yeah, a comment like that just isn't constructive. It isn't like we have IP lawyers manning FFD, policing all image uploads, reviewing NFCC claims, etc. If you don't feel like you understand the concepts, then sit this one out rather than try to shut others down. I happen to be a lawyer, but I'm not going to jump through a hoop to prove that just to participate in a discussion here, and not when my explanations stand on their own regardless of my JD. And anyone can read a copyright textbook and school themselves. postdlf (talk) 04:31, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

• Dragons flight, I'm assuming the WMF's legal team will do its job, which is to provide legal counsel. We're not donating to pay them to sit around all day waiting for some complaints to occur. I am acutely aware that most on-wiki copyright discussions don't involve the WMF or legal professionals, and I'm not saying that's always a bad model. I'm saying that fighting over legal matters shouldn't take up a multi-section AN/I thread and result in personal attacks—instead, it should be resolved by simply asking someone who's being paid to give legal guidance. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 06:06, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

  The WMF legal team's job is to serve the best interests of the Foundation, which is not necessarily the same as the interests of the community. Sometimes the Foundation's interests will lead to counsel helping the community, but often it is in the Foundation's best interest not to get involved. At a basic level, it would be a poor use of legal counsel's time if they attempted to respond to every question raised by the community. Legal counsel have many things to do in order to ensure the success of the WMF, and most of those things have very little to do with copyright. At a more advanced level, it can be disadvantageous for the Foundation to become too involved in content matters. The WMF relies on the DMCA safe harbor provisions to protect the Foundation from most forms of copyright liability arising from user actions. Getting involved in specific content issues can sometimes risk exposing the WMF to liability claims that they would otherwise be immune to, and that risk needs to be carefully weighed before issuing legal advice to the community on content matters. However, the safe harbor provisions also require that the Foundation respond promptly to direct complaints from copyright holders. Thus it is not at all surprising that third-party complaints receive much more attention from the WMF than hypothetical concerns raised by the community. The WMF general counsel works for the Foundation, and not for you or I, and so for the most part they are under no obligation to answer our questions. There is no one at the Foundation whose job focus requires giving legal advice to community members. Dragons flight (talk) 07:41, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

• I concur with Dragon flight's comments, which are only "unhelpful" to the extent that they pop the balloon of expectation that WMF's legal counsel will solve this problem: historically, that has never been the case. In fact, all the WMF has done in the past, presumably with the advice of its counsel, is to confuse and complicate the situation even more than necessary by promulgating a standard of "free" and "non-free" which is more restrictive than the accepted standard of American "fair use" practice. By adhering to an ideologically-based standard of what "free" means, rather than accepting standard fair-use practice, the Foundation has created an untenable situation where the encyclopedia is denied the use of images that there is no legal reason not to use, and editors -- including long-term admins who do a great deal of work in the area of images -- are confused about the conflicting requirements of the law and policy. It would be much better, and infinitely simpler, if the Foundation were to quit quivering in it boots about someday possibly being sued for copyright infringement (potentially exposing the untested legality of "copyleft", a concept that the entire encyclopedia is based on), and simply adapted standard fair-use practices as official policy. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:51, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

• From what I've seen, I wouldn't reccomend holding one's breath, unless one happens to be a vampire. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:20, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

• I'm not. Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:55, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

What I'm getting from this discussion and elsewhere is that (1) commons is indeed concerned about copyright and freedom-of-panorama issues; (2) they are undermanned, so it can take awhile to uncover issues; and (3) the Wagner statue is assumed to not be copyrighted, based on the absence of copyright info in this artworks catalogue: ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:58, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Regardless of whether we ultimately get further Foundation guidance on this issue, we need to promptly revert the remainder of Fastily's removals of {{Photo of art}}, which have left hundreds of images without the stated license of the derivative author. This is unacceptable for a number of reasons, and even if the language is changed eventually we appear to have a clear consensus recognizing that some statement of the derivative license is required. postdlf (talk) 16:00, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Dragons flight (talk) 18:25, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I've emailed the WMF legal department as well as two outside lawyers to get their opinions. I'll let people know as soon as (or if) I hear anything back. I would also favor restoring the missing tags for now, although I don't have a strong opinion on it. Kaldari (talk) 22:32, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree that the status quo ante should be restored. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:16, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Status quo ante bellum mutare? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:26, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Anti-Arab attacks - some eyes please

Down with Arab occupiers (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Sean.goyland (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User:Down with Arab occupiers appeared to be harassing User:Supreme Deliciousness by reverting perfectly good maintenance tags and posting attacks, which continued on the user Talk page after I blocked. User:Sean.goyland was then created to attack User:Sean.hoyland, who had reverted some of the original edits - see the edit summaries at Special:Contributions/Sean.goyland, and the now-deleted unblock request at User talk:Sean.hoyland. Both are now indef blocked, but I think a few more eyes on the situation would be a good idea as I'm off shortly - so if anyone could watch the articles these two accounts have been editing with a view to blocking further socks, that would be a great help -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 05:36, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Continuation of above. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 05:40, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

And we have a new one in DEATH TO GERMANS AND ARABS! (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). I'm going to semi-p all those articles -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 05:45, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

And DEATH TO GERMANS AND ARABS1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) if there is a Checkuser in the house, is there any chance of having a look to see if any IP rangeblock might help? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 05:56, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Not possible – it's all open proxies. --MuZemike 06:09, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Ah well, thanks anyway -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 06:24, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

One more sock: --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:16, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Zapped -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 06:24, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

One more sock: --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:48, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

And another sock, this time an IP: . Armbrust _review 07:34, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• Tagged them all with the oldest account (the first one mentioned here) as the putative sockmaster, although some of the named accounts from the previous ANI thread above are probably the same folk... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 10:50, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

We do not tag socks from this guy. --MuZemike 11:37, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that's who this is. I recognise the style, but can't at the moment recall who the puppeteer is. But we've certainly seen this vandal before. RolandR (talk) 15:50, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Very typical of him, actually. Most of his recent activity is revdeleted, though.Jasper Deng (talk) 20:47, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Ahh, should have figured it was a long-termer. I'll remember that the next time the Whackamallet has to be pulled out. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:14, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Socks are back: --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 01:47, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Facepalm Time to get the mallet back out I reckon... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:17, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

So wait. We can't checkuser the socks because they're using open proxies? We're at least blocking the proxies, right? causa sui (talk) 00:48, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

No, we can't *rangeblock* 'em because they're open proxies. I would anticipate the underlying proxy being blocked if possible though. Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:08, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Talk:Stallion

Some eyes at Talk:Stallion may be needed. An IP (presently 83.77.224.215 (talk · contribs))with a highly dynamic address has been conducting a verbose campaign to include a fringe topic on the keeping of stallions in a group, sourcing it to an advocacy website that until recently (i.e., until it was noted by other editors in the discussion) is or was primarily devoted to anti-(animal) castration activism, with some more dubious issues on the side (see the talkpage for discussion of the proposed source). I had protected the main article to divert discussion onto the talkpage. When the IP's proposed edits failed to gain traction, the IP started demanding personal information of the primary editor who had been engaging the IP, Pesky, who was until then very patiently discussing policy; she was not pleased by this and said so. The IP was warned by myself, Tom Morris and Dreadstar. Dreadstar deleted the diffs involving the improper inquiry (I'm not convinced it was necessary, but that's how it stands). The IP is a bit worked up and is convinced that censorship is involved. Given the highly dynamic IP and the time zones involved, it would be good if some European admins could monitor the talkpage and the IP. Acroterion (talk) 05:56, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

See also Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Stallion_discussion. Yet another fringe-pusher convinced that our sceptical response is proof of a conspiracy... AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:07, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I've lost patience with them, as has everyone else who's tried to engage. Pretty much the definition of a tendentious editor. Acroterion (talk) 06:17, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

My own view is that this is such a crying shame - if only we could get this editor to work with us, he/she has such passion and energy that, properly directed, focussed, and as part of a collaborative team, they could actually be a real "positive". However, at this point, it seems that they can see no way to work with us at all. :o( What a waste of so much energy. I have run entirely out of ideas as to how to get anything good from this editor. Just adding a bit: the site this editor keeps pushing has already been cited as to the existence of minority views (which is the only thing it is "reliable" for, in the view of other editors involved with the page); and for a bit of AN/I dramah entertainment for this morning, it's worth mentioning that the site previously (until very recently) had articles labelling horse-women as man-hating, oppressive animal-mutilating criminals, and advocated human intervention to give uncastrated animals the "relief" which they might need. Applied by hand. Which is not only so "fringey" a view as to be totally unsuitable for mention here, but without doubt promoting practices which are quite definitely criminal in the vast majority of countries! A two-word summary of this "treatment" would rhyme with "blanket". Pesky (talk …stalk!) 09:48, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Also being discussed on WP:FTN. Mathsci (talk) 09:51, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Update: I've added another really good source into the article, and clarified for the IP why the source they were concerned about is ok (it has pics and video of perfectly-happy group-kept stallions - video is always RS for its own content). I'm hoping that this obviously-distressed editor (newbie thrown in at the deep end of dramah, who started with obviously good intentions and just became increasingly frustrated) will be able to see things more clearly now, and I'm actually still somewhat hopeful that we may be able to turn this around into a win/win situation. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 14:39, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to be the pessimist to your eternal optimist but I have my doubts. I have my doubts about the editor's intentions too. While I don't want to assume bad faith, the impressive display of WP:IDIDN'THEARTHAT leads me to believe the IP has no interest in learning what Misplaced Pages about. Good intentions are coming to the project with an open mind to learning what's involved in contributing content. Everyone at that talk page has been remarkably patient with him/her, but the message isn't getting through. The IP is clearly not stupid so I take that to mean he/she doesn't want to understand. I have very little sympathy for them when everyone has patiently linked appropriate pages and explained themselves repeatedly. I can't see a good outcome. If the IP continues along in the same vein I think blocks are the only available option. Bunnies! Leave a message :) 15:56, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I think the bulk of the discussion probably needs to stay over at the Dispute resolution noticeboard, but just to say that Pesky is a well-respected editor and didn't need to be attacked by this VERY fringe IP who is not understanding how WP works. I was the one who noticed this fringe material and initially removed it, Pesky doesn't deserve these attacks. Montanabw 07:05, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Near-legal threats

The IP is flinging accusations against all who've tried to engage, edging into legal threat territory. Note that this is a highly dynamic IP. Acroterion (talk) 16:27, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

• Comment That isnt even close to a legal threat. Especially the part that says "the other admins of Misplaced Pages have all information and all means in your hands to right at least this wrong. Please do so as soon as possible. Other than that, I don't see anything else I could say or do. " A legal threat requires the threat of legal action. No such threat exists here. Using words like "libel" or "slander" do not automatically make it a legal threat. It seems to me, only by reading this diff, that this editor is trying to assume good faith and trying to set this issue aside. Maybe everyone should just calm down.--v/r - TP 16:46, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I didn't say it was a legal threat, although I find the "criminal intent" portion a bit much. I, personally am calm, the only un-calm person is the IP, who answers calm and conciliatory engagement with diatribes. I'm fine with ignoring the whole business, although I note that protection expires on Stallion later today. Acroterion (talk) 16:52, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I, too, found the IP's comment "I feel this has been and continues to be done with ill or even criminal intent by several editors here, Acroterion, as seen above and Montanbw being two of them" to be very much over the top, but, as Acroterion said, everyone is calm apart from the IP here. The protection on Stallion definitely needs to be ongoing, though. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 17:39, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I see it expires in about 10 minutes. Can we just see if the IP has taken anything from this experience before we extend the protection? I'll do it myself if the behavior continues, but let's just watch first and see if the discussion and time has had an effect.--v/r - TP 18:30, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

That's what I thought was appropriate as well; let the protection expire and see if it all just settles down. I would, however, note that the IP edits primarily in the morning hours, European time, so I don't expect much to happen immediately, or when I'm awake. Acroterion (talk) 18:37, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree that this was not yet a legal threat, which is the reason that I only issued a warning at the DRN discussion. The relevant text from WP:LEGAL is:

It is important to refrain from making comments that others may reasonably understand as legal threats, even if the comments are not intended in that fashion. For example, if you repeatedly assert that another editor's comments are "defamatory" or "libelous", that editor might interpret this as a threat to sue for defamation, even if this is not intended. ... Rather than blocking immediately, administrators should seek to clarify the user's meaning and make sure that a mere misunderstanding is not involved.

Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 22:11, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Request for Admin Review at talk:cold fusion

I am looking for admin(s) to have a look at the talk:cold fusion page, preferably those with some prior familiarity at the article. An IP editor was recently banned as a sock of VanishedUser314159, but before departing alleged there is at least one other active editor of the page is a sock of a banned user. Over the last couple of weeks the activity on the page has increased rapidly (by almost 150 kB from about 27 kB since 17 December), including debates about stating the MIT is teaching cold fusion and a suggestion that an endorsement of CF by Mitt Romney should be noted. I would like someone (or several someones) familiar with past cold fusion debates to have a look at what is going on and see if anything is worth doing before the area descends into much nastier debate, and also to see whether there is evidence of sock violations. I am not accusing any individual but would like someone with the familiarity to spot duck-evidence of socking to examine the page. I will post a notification at talk:cold fusion that I have asked for admin review of the page. Am I required to post to all current active editors, as if so I will. Thanks. EdChem (talk) 11:57, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I will gladly prove that I am not a SOCK user, what I have written on my user page is absolutely correct. I have/had another account which I currently do not use, but might use again when my interest for cold fusion goes away. My current account is a single purpose. I do my best to edit NPOV, but the article is a battlefield. And yes, I know my username is not wisely chosen. Please see what the banned user VanishedUser314159 "promised" me . I can't tell how many other editors he has already "encouraged to oppose my efforts". --POVbrigand (talk) 13:42, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

POVbrigand, has your other account been disclosed at least to Arbcom? Salvio 14:00, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

No, how should I do that ? --POVbrigand (talk) 16:33, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

You can either send an email to a sitting arbitration or to arbcom-llists.wikimedia.org. Salvio 19:08, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I have disclosed my other account to Roger Davies. --POVbrigand (talk) 20:43, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

This is to confirm that I have now been notified of the two accounts and I've added the details to the committee's records.  Roger Davies 04:33, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Roger, does this mean that you have checked and are satisfied that the allegation made at talk:Cold fusion#Suggest reverting that POVbrigand "is clearly a sockpuppet of User:LossIsNotMore" is false, or simply that you have been notified of two accounts being linked? EdChem (talk) 06:43, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Simply that I've been notified that two accounts are linked (the other is NOT User:LossIsNotMore). SPI would be the best venue for examining any socking allegations, with all the usual requirements about prima facie evidence before the tool is used and so forth.  Roger Davies 11:21, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Ok, Roger, thanks for the clarification. Part of my thinking in looking here for an admin familiar with the cold fusion area was to see if any of the current editors are behaving in ways that someone experienced with previous socks from the area might recognise. I am concerned that the area is building towards further conflict and would like any socks involved removed. EdChem (talk) 11:33, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Can I waive the "usual requirements about prima facie evidence" so somebody can checkuser me ? I am "guilty" of choosing a silly username, I have no problem with getting myself checked. I do not think that LossIsNotMore, nor his master Nrcprm2026 ever edited in the German WP, did they ?

I also think that the fringe fighting squad at Cold fusion and related topics is very uncomfortable with the fact that NEW editors have come in who ALL seems to disagree with the current state of the article being biased towards proclaiming cold fusion science stone dead and non existant. Which is per RS not the case and it is not our GOD DAMN OR !

The article can seriously use involvement from admins to make sure WP:FRINGE is applied for what is was meant to be. The fringe fighters are way to experienced in filibustering and patting each other on the shoulder to avoid giving the new editors any change of getting the article to NPOV.

But I do not expect anyone to listen to me. AGF is nice, but it doesn't work when there is a shit load bunch of biased editors taking every chance to paint the "POV-pushers" as black as they can, ridicule them, use uncivil behaviour and try to trick them into making small mistakes so they can haul them over to a noticeboard to have them blocked. Just so they can and keep their joint ownership of the article. WP doesn't work that way, it's frustrating. Does anybody hear me ? --POVbrigand (talk) 12:13, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Speaking of sock puppets, I would like to know which editor is using Special:Contributions/Appealcourt. Very, very strange editing behaviour. --POVbrigand (talk) 18:53, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

And your evidence that this is a sockpuppet is what exactly? AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:04, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

That's ... very odd. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 19:30, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Unusual? Probably. I don't see how this can be seen as evidence for sockpuppetry though. Appealcourt started a large number of AfDs in a short period of time - some were closed as 'delete', some as 'keep'. There seems little to me to link the articles submitted to AfD other than a general problem with actually establishing notability, and with proper sourcing - which are legitimate concerns. I'd suggest that the AfD justifications were poorly argued, indicating maybe a lack of appropriate attention to detail, but I can't see how any of this would benefit anyone pushing some sort of covert POV. I'd have thought that the alleged 'puppet master', were one to exist, would be a little more subtle... AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:10, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Looking at that very strange editing behaviour it appears to me that all the other AfDs were only made to lead up to and distract from the Patterson Power Cell AfD, which was his last activity. Admin investigation recommended. --POVbrigand (talk) 09:03, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Here is a diff of the rougly 180 kB of posts since 17 December, to a page under ArbCom discretionary sanctions. Is there no admin with experience in this article who sees any problems here? Am I just mistaken in seeing a growing problem? EdChem (talk) 06:43, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

User:Galassi breaking guidelines/rules on Slavic Neopaganism

Galassi persistently adds incorrectly referenced information (and non-English non-primary source references, which I am not sure is recommended) to Slavic Neopaganism, and once deleted my tags saying that the sources could be unreliable. He is pushing a non-NPOV that borders on gross incivility. I explained all this on the talk page. I request that something be done, such as the article at least be protected and given a NPOV.--Dchmelik (talk) 13:58, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Dchmelik has committed numerous infractions of WP:VERIFY, WP:RS and WP:OR. He has not sourced reliably or otherwise a single statement of his.--Galassi (talk) 14:10, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Wait, what is wrong with "non-English non-primary source references"? Sources don't have to be in English and they should preferrably not be primary.--v/r - TP 15:29, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

All his English sources are incorrectly referenced, and all in other languages that I checked with Google Translate seem to also be, and I explained why on the article's talk page. Galissi has a record of past violations and being blocked, and has no examples of his allegations. He continues to add incorrectly referenced information and delete my WP:RS tags after I had read and disputed sources.--Dchmelik (talk) 15:58, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

• Galassi needs a thwap for misuse of sources - something I view quite seriously. He has used the term fakelore in the lede (and other places) and cited it to 10 sources, 8 of which are in Russian (or at least in Cryllic script). "Fakelore" is a term of 1950s US coinage, used to describe the deliberate misrepresentation of a manufactured tale as if it were genuine folklore. One of the two English sources he cites , contains no reference to fakelore. Rather it describes what in neopagan circles is called "reconstructionism", the attempt to recreate an ancient religion in a form that can be practiced today. I believe anthropologists who research folklore would call it folklorismus - a legitimate use of a tradition outside the culture in which it was created. I can only assume that Galassi is translating whatever it says in Russian as 'fakelore' - certainly that's what he's done with the online English source. This is WP:OR at the very least. Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:02, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

THere is no term FAKELORE in Russian. THe common terms are MANUFACTURED TRADITION (or MYTHOLOGY). None of the sources I cited are misrepresented. These charges are groundless and frivolous. Slavic Neopaganism is more often than not seen as an extremist xenophofic movement in Russian scholarly sources. There is even a Neopagan psychology study produced for the Russian corrections officers, but it is way too technical for wikipedia.--Galassi (talk) 17:09, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Also there are many equivalents of FAKELORE that imply the same thing without using the word FAKE, such as INVENTED, MANUFACTURED, ARTIFICIAL, PSEUDO, QUASI etc. There is a plehora of sources (either academic of by human rights organizations) with such wordings.--Galassi (talk) 17:17, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

And I repeat - Dchmelik has committed numerous infractions of WP:VERIFY, WP:RS and WP:OR. He has not sourced (reliably or otherwise) a single statement of his.--Galassi (talk) 17:21, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Galassi, neither manufactured tradition nor mythology mean the same thing as fakelore. Manufactured tradition does not mean the same as mythology. Invented, artificial, pseudo and quasi do not mean fakelore either. The term fakelore needs to be removed from the article entirely until such time as you have a WP:RS which uses that word. Also, you seem to have a major misunderstanding as to what "reconstructionism" is. The article from religion-spirituality.org explains it rather well in English - you'll note that it is not a perjorative description. That article explains that the participants are usually well aware that what they have now is only an approximation to anything that existed in the past, and this awareness alone precludes it being "fakelore".

It is not appropriate to treat religious beliefs as if they need to be debunked like fringe science. It is also not the way human rights organisations approach these new religions, another indication that your translation is off. If you have sources that state that groups of followers are associated with extremist political movements, you should include that in the body of the article, being clear if possible whether the sources are saying that the groups are using the religious approach as a cover for their beliefs or a as a basis for them (both scenarios occur in other areas).Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:03, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

That is disputable, and partucularly to an ethnomusicologist like myself, who has to deal with a lot of FAKEloric material on the daily basis. It is in fact the same as pseudo-, quasi- etc. Moreover - Slavic Neopaganism is less of a religion than a political movement rooted in the idea of the so-called "deZionization" of Slavic cultures (which is a euphemism for good ole judophobia), and all academic sources agree on the MANUFACTURED quality of Slavic Neopaganism. If fact I'm not aware of a single reliable source that would attest to any authenticity thereof. I hope that my worthy opponent provides some.--Galassi (talk) 18:20, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

This is a content dispute anyway, and belongs on the article talkpage. Galassi, if you want to use a particular and fairly obscure word with a specific and perjorative meaning, you are going to have to find a source that actually uses it. You are also going to need to separate out any feelings you may have about extremist political stances, and understand what "reconstructionism" means, as you appear not to understand what the term means. I know this because you are using this - source 11 as a source for 'fakelore', and not only does it not use the word fakelore, but it does not regard reconstructionism as some kind of invalid or deceptive activity. Now if you want to set out that the slavic neopagan movement has been hijacked by anti-semitic extremists churning out rubbish to deceive the masses, go for it with reliable sources, but please use the actual words in the sources. Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:39, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

And that source shouldn't be used anyway. As is noted on the bottom of the page it 'uses material from the Misplaced Pages article “Neo-paganism.”'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:20, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't mind getting rid of that citation. However F-Lore is not pejorative per se, and it is commonly enogh used in ethnographic context to describe artifically manufactured "traditions". And I seriously doubt the opponent would settle for the alternative terms, as they mean the same thing. As to the NP movement: it hasn't been highjacked, the dodgy politics are the integral part of that gestalt, as it was started by the same people. A large number of NP publications are on the Rus.Fed. blacklist of extremist pupbications. THe most notable of which is "The Thrust of the Russian Gods" by Istarkhov, which openly calls for violence.--Galassi (talk) 19:35, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

If you move in a circle where fakelore is common and not pejorative, and it's acceptable to refer to all neopagansim by that term, I can only say it must be a small circle. In the rest of the world, neopaganism might well be seen as weird, but there's a distinction between 'fake religion" and "reconstructionism". Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:51, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't know much about the non-Slavic varieties of NP, and I don't edit those articles.--Galassi (talk) 20:05, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

But then if such an attitude is restricted to Slavic varieties, then they won't use the word "fakelore" surely, as it's an English word? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:41, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

That's the problem. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:04, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

They use any number of equivalent terms, meaning the same thing. My understanding is that the "fakelor" attitude is not restricted to the Slavic variety, as most neopaganism relies on creativity, in absence ov reliable sources. The difference is that the Slavic variety is not just weird or excentric. It is highly politicized, and prone to extremism. One of citations I posted goes into that in great detail.--Galassi (talk) 23:55, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Galassi, the word implies a misrepresentation - pretending that something is a traditional song or story when you know it was made up last week, pretending that Paul Bunyan for Tinies is the original version of the stories. It is incredibly pejorative. Our own article on the subject points up the difference between fakelore - which is a deception or distortion - and folklorismus, which is not a pejorative term, but a general term for treating traditional material in a creative manner. Relying on creativity does not make it fakelore. You may not use that very specific, negative word unless you have a source that uses that very specific negative word. You may not substitute your "interpretation" of what the sources say. Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:09, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Fine. I hope the opponent doesn't find the exact wording more offensive... I don't see fakelore as distorsion, it is fabrication. Which what the subject in question is, and this is how it is sourced, most of the time.--Galassi (talk) 00:51, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I do not know if this is really the place to discuss all this, but I actually think that if some adherents use fakelore, then the article needs to make people aware--maybe not right at the beginning, but possibly in a section detailing fakelore instances, like articles like Wicca or Neopaganism do. Now that you finally said Slavic paganism (Slavianstvo) is sourced with fakelore (i.e. manufactured, which the article now says instead, still with incorrectly referenced information) 'most of the time'--which is not all of the time--I hope you will agree that the article must distinguish between what Slavianstvo is when it is sourced with fakelore, and the rest of the time (reconstructionism,) because as I (and it seems Elen) have said, the terms are incompatible, and using them without quantification implies a contradiction to the reader, and that Slavianstvo may be fakelore all the time, which is confusing, and arguably an uninformed, biased, even pejorative view. I doubt a human rights organization would call any religion fakelore unless it is a joke religion or otherwise admitted to be invented. You suggested 'pseudo' and the similar 'quasi' as alternatives you claim human rights organizations use, but I am extremely skeptical: the pseudoreligion article states it is pejorative, and your others, except mythology, would probably be used to synonymize 'fakelore.' Most of the sources are archaeological or about ancient mythology, etc., and almost all religions are mythological, which does not make them fakelore, but by all means point out fakelore: just make clear the difference between it and folklore.--Dchmelik (talk) 01:39, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

1.I have no idea what slavyanstvo you refer to. This term in unklown, unless you mean Panslavism. 2.This is a content dispute inappropriate for ANI. Use talk pages.--Galassi (talk) 01:43, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I think you should use a talk page for most your comments here; my comment was just to reach a consensus with you and state to what extent I agree with you that the admins may need to know. When parentheses are used such as 'Slavic paganism (Slavianstvo,)' the term in parentheses is being used as an abbreviation for the one not in parentheses.--Dchmelik (talk) 01:52, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Galassi is still using pejoratives, such as with his still present incorrectly referenced information. I removed the use of 'quasireligion,' (like 'pseudoreligion'--pejorative,) IIRC not correctly referenced, but generalizing about neopaganism as a whole, but not Slavianstvo, and I said any usage needs definition, but he just says 'you CANNOT remove cited info.'--Dchmelik (talk) 01:47, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I should note that Galassi is wrong in that edit summary. Being cited is not a magic shield which protects a nugget of information from every being removed. I have no opinion one way or the other on the specific nugget being disputed here, but being cited has no bearing one way or the other on the matter at hand. A reference is a necessary, but not sufficient, requirement; also needed is consensus to include it. --Jayron32 05:51, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Recent edit summaries by Galassi: "bs rm", "bs rm", "bs rm". --DonaldDuck (talk) 06:29, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Galissi removed my reliable secondary sources, replaced his incomplete citations, returned the article to a biased/fringe/pejorative view (saying cult, quasireligion (pseudoreligion,) with either no sources, or ones used in fringe way to say Slavic mythology is all fabricated. If it is considered appropriate yet, I request he be blocked because of this and his history of violations that resulted him in being blocked repeatedly in the past.--Dchmelik (talk) 21:00, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Galassi continues to make changes/reversions that destroy newer third-party citations and restore incomplete ones, biased/fringe/pejorative views described directly above. Perhaps this is grounds for banning.--Dchmelik (talk) 21:25, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Galassi did more edits with blanket generalizations that Slavianism is all cults and a quasireligion: grossly incivil (after seeming to have read those are pejoratives.)--dchmelik (t|c) 05:57, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Vandal attacks on unblock requests

There's a vandal using dynamic IPs to attack all the current unblock requests - see Category:Requests for unblock#Pages in category, apparently campaigning for the reinstatement of Rodhullandemu and claiming they're a real life friend. I'm not at all convinced I believe that and it seems more likely it's just trolling. I've semi-protected all the current user Talk pages with unblock requests (one is itself an IP, so I've only protected that for an hour - we don't want to stop the blocked IP but do need to stop the "Rodhullandemu" IP). I doubt a range block would be feasible, as it looks like BT dynamic addresses in the SE of England, but perhaps someone who understands them might be able to work out a small range? Either way, some eyes on the unblock requests would help -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 01:56, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

PS: Does it feel like it's full moon as well as Xmas/Saturnalia/etc, or is that just me? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 01:56, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Ah, and see this -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 02:01, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Solved with abusefilter 448. Please stop protecting these pages. Prodego 02:15, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Excellent, thanks - I'll unprotect the pages now -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 02:19, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

• It's not Saturnalia, it's just User:Hamish Ross. NawlinWiki (talk) 13:06, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

As an editor who has recently been graced by Rodhullandemu via back channels I feel confident in saying that they are not ready for re-joining the main community. Some editors here and at annother project can verify these assertions. Hasteur (talk) 13:31, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit war across multiple pages

I was just recent change patrolling and I noticed that 99.224.54.167 and MonkeyKingBar were engaged in an edit war at General Electric GE90. I gave them each a template warning, and then they each showed up at my talk page. It turns out that they are also edit warring at Liza Frulla. At my talk page MonkeyKingBar accussed the IP of being a troll and the IP said MonkeyKingBar is a sockpuppet of a banned user. See User talk:Mark Arsten#Edit Warring for specifics. I'd appreciate it if an Admin could step in here and try to sort things out. Mark Arsten (talk) 04:17, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

There is no sock puppetry, as I have not been concurrently using other accounts. MonkeyKingBar (talk) 04:25, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

That isn't the only dissallowed use of multiple accounts. Do you have a prior account which is blocked? --Jayron32 05:46, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Concurrency doesn't matter - please read WP:BE, and please disclose any prior accounts you may have edited from. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:08, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

• IP has been blocked 24 hours by Nyttend. Mark Arsten (talk) 05:30, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I didn't block Monkey for two combined reasons: s/he didn't violate 3RR, and despite the long lag between this thread and the IP's last revert, Monkey didn't re-revert the IP, so I suspect that Mark's warning template stopped the edit war. Nyttend (talk) 14:17, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

IP Hopping

Can someone who does range blocks (which isn't me) take a look at User talk:CambridgeBayWeather#Very persistent IP-hopping vandal. I'm just off to bed and don't have the time. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 08:17, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

And now the section below. I haven't checked or notified the IP. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 08:20, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Both 89.148.0.0/18 and 84.255.128.0/18 have been blocked for 2 weeks. --MuZemike 08:26, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

May I revert the pages to what they were before IP's edits ?! Unflavoured (talk) 08:30, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

If they're disruptive, go right ahead. --MuZemike 08:37, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks MuZemike. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 19:16, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

User:Darkness2005

Could someone review Special:Contributions/Darkness2005? The user aparrently has a history of refusing to use edit summaries and a search of their talk page shows repeated requests and warnings that they be provided, up until they were indefinitely blocked in November 2010 for this and other editing concerns. They were unblocked in April following discussion at User_talk:Darkness2005#I.27m_sorry_for_vandalizing.2Fcontributing_so_many_articles_without_using_the_edit_summary., where promising to use edit summaries was a significant factor. Despite this, there are still no edit summaries and at least five subsequent warnings (the last by me) on their talk page have had no effect. This is in addition to a history of edit warring, repeated placement of unreferenced material etc, and two subsequent 72 hour blocks. Thanks. RichardOSmith (talk) 11:12, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Should Wecantdoanythingaboutit (talk · contribs) not be tagged as a sock of Darkness2005? This seems to be some sort of an admission, unless I read it wrong. It "is" in "scare quotes", after all. Maybe we're not tagging as much as we used to... Doc talk 11:27, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I just indef'd the account. I don't know why he wasn't indeffed a long time ago. He has a very long history of abusing multiple accounts. He creates accounts to edit war and use personal attacks and gets his socks blocked but has managed to keep his main account unblocked for the most part. I think we need a community ban of this guy. I'm curious if another sock is Ruth-2013 (talk · contribs) per this edit even though Ruth-2013 has reported several of the socks to SPI.--v/r - TP 14:04, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I was going to either bring this up here or otherwise would've started an WP:RFC/U with loads of problematic diffs. Anyways, Darkness2005 was indefinitely blocked a little over a year ago (as a result of the discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive647#Darkness2005 per the very same issues that have just led to the latest indef block. During that time, Darkness2005 evaded block and created several sockpuppets that impersonated (mostly YouTube) Internet personalities to evade his block, including BigAl2k6 (talk · contribs), Thespoonyexperiment (talk · contribs), GuardianEarth128 (talk · contribs), Adultnature1989 (talk · contribs), Darknessthecurse (talk · contribs), MasakoX (talk · contribs), and SpongePore (talk · contribs).

Another admin saw fit to unblock on 18 April 2011, but the recidivism is clearly evident after that point. I feel that this indefinite block is justified, as he clearly as not changed anything but has instead acted and edited disruptively to get his own way. This includes making unnecessary article splits, refusal to participate in any talk page or deletion discussion of any kind, making minor edits solely for the purpose of complaining via edit summaries, edit warring when he doesn't get his way (also led to at least one block on that), article ownership, threatening other editors, and dismissing others' edits on articles he watches as that he disagrees with as vandalism. --MuZemike 16:27, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

• Good block, and I'd support a WP:CBAN. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 20:00, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

FkpCascais

Concern has been raised by various people about the conduct of user FkpCascais (talk · contribs). For context: an edit involving the removal of reliably sourced information and alteration of information that was previously discussed was again pushed in by the same user, LAz17 (talk · contribs). This user put in his contested version and then immediatley after sought protection to keep it in place. FkpCascais wished to keep this protection going in the absence of LAz17, who was later indef blocked for breaching his topic ban with this article , by all means other than by properly discussing. He accused a participant, DIREKTOR (talk · contribs), of committing personal attacks and then insisted continuing the protection of the article on that basis. After his report failed he went to the admin that originally protected the article and asked him to extend the protection, but this request also failed. He then attempted to get AniMate (talk · contribs), an admin who commented in the incident report against DIREKTOR, blocked for what Fkp has called "blatant lying" via Jimmy Wales' talkpage. Now he has attempted to get another participant, Peacemaker67 (talk · contribs), blocked on the basis that he is a sockpuppet. It is evident that FkpCascais is gaming the system and wishes to reach the goal of keeping his preferred version intact not through proper discussion, but by getting users who disagree with him blocked by any means necessary. -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 15:03, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't like "ganging up" on anyone, since I've been ganged-up on and I know how it feels, and I am hardly objective being involved in a long-lasting content dispute with FkpCascais. However, in the interest of helping along future discussion with the user, I have to say that I believe it would highly beneficial if the user were at the very least cautioned to abide by the sources. "POV pushing" is a term that gets thrown around a lot, but FkpCascais's behavior I believe fits the definition very well indeed. It is, in my personal opinion, very disruptive to have to face FkpCascais' impressive arsenal of source-evasion tactics every time a perceived negative piece of information is to be added on the Serbian Chetniks. All his efforts are centered on preserving the reputation of the Chetniks. The user is prone to trying to continuously raise the bar no matter how many sources are present, and demanding that his personal standards of sourcing (which change continuously) be accepted. If he's not trying to get rid of a source on the basis of a scholar's ethnicity, he's misquoting policy like WP:UNDUE or WP:REDFLAG.

At the very least, I think it really is necessary for the community to help impress upon the user the fact that Misplaced Pages policy defines WP:RELIABLE SOURCES, and not he himself. That WP:V needs to be satisfied, not his personal standards (which are always, by one tactic or another, set against the addition of negative facts on the WWII Serbian Chetnnik movement). --DIREKTOR 15:38, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Just bringing evdence about the denial of check user I been confronted: Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/AlasdairGreen27. So, all this users edit-war me and gang-me up on several articles, avoid discussion, and actually they try by all means to remove me for years now, and I am the one "wanting to get people blocked"? FkpCascais (talk) 21:40, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

You do nothing other than push POV, disrupt discussion by ignoring sources and policy, and post bogus offensive threads and SPI reports to bully people who's sources you cannot successfully disregard. Dozens of sources were quoted in this discussion, and I cannot recall when you ever contributed constructively by bringing a single one up in support of your numerous claims. Personally I think you have disrupted discussions so frequently and with such success you should be blocked for a goodly period, there are literally now tomes of text concerning themselves almost exclusively with your source evasion tactics. At least I hope you will be cautioned to abide by WP:V in future, the recent farce at Talk:Yugoslav Partisans is really too much. --DIREKTOR 21:59, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Everyone can check and se what really happend there, and I will gladly explain each and every action of mine. If I ever made any minor mistake you would certainly get me ganged-up and blocked pretty rapidly. I am gathering evidence of everything happening here to me, as it is really incredible. FkpCascais (talk) 22:22, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I actually think a better venue for this discussion would be WP:AE. I think requesting a block or topic ban for FkpCascais per WP:ARBMAC would be a better solution, since this board isn't set up for looking at long term patterns of behavior and no one here really wants to get involved in a Balkans dispute. AniMate 23:44, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, right, so the users edit warring only 5 hours after protection lifted, avoiding discussion and consensus building, trolling, gang-banging me, avoiding being checked, removing sourced info and replacing it by nationalistically based edits, all this comming from an admin who´s intevention was to provide phalse information in order to save his pals who he atributed barnstars for sharing same POV and has often jumped into ANI reports in order to discredit abuse reports and DIREKTOR&co., sure. With regard to the subject, I have all the right to oppose the biased nationalistically based accusation of "ethnic cleansing" based with a few local sources, and same concerns were already expressed by other users at this discussion (see bottom of section) where the same sources are analised by another senior user. Seems to me I am being harassed by politically motivated reasons, so I am removed from the discussions so the users sharing same POV can unnopposedly add undiscussed controversial content into higly sensitive articles. This is crystal clear, but it is up to you gentleman to tolerate this. FkpCascais (talk) 00:38, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Your request for a sockpuppet investigation had no diffs or even analysis of edits, related to a user who had been out of the WP world for many months, was clearly motivated by the fact that you disagree with the inclusion of sourced material that I and others have brought to the Chetniks article, and did not comply with the basic rules of 'assume good faith' and the 'duck test'. It was fanciful and the check user 'fishing' expedition was rightly turned down by the clerk. I am appalled with this type of behaviour, and think you should be sanctioned in some way to discourage you from such adventures in future. Peacemaker67 (talk) 05:54, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

False shared-IP cat...

User:184.44.129.253 is apparently a long-term disruptive IP editor, believed by others to self-identify as "Tailsman67" (not a registered username, but see User:Salvidrim/Tailsman67). I came across this user because he made a nonsense edit on a page I watch, so I can't speak to the truth of it, but there is some quacking.

Anyhow, the user either posted (or misled others into thinking should be posted) a false shared educational IP template on his talk page, thus only getting schoolblocked, etc. Well, it's now school vacation, and the IP is still editing. Somebody checked, and it's not a school IP at all. Interestingly enough, the user gave himself away a few weeks ago when he was blocked, and it was missed. Nevertheless, the IP is still in the "shared educational IP" cat, and it gets noted as such on AIV. I cannot find where the template resides on the talk page, and I'm wondering therefore if it is only viewable and removable by admins, and if somebody could get rid of it? MSJapan (talk) 15:15, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

It's the "schoolblock" template, and the categorization is embedded within that template. I can read it, so it's not just admins. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:50, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I seriously doubt that IP is from a school, as pretty much all schools in America are closed between Christmas Eve and New Years. --MuZemike 18:37, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

FYI, I upped that single IP block to a 2-week rangeblock on 184.44.128.0/19. I am considering other rangeblocks, as well. --MuZemike 18:41, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Attack page as kept by User:El duderino on talk page

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:El duderino has been keeping, by definition, attack page content in his user space beginning with this diff on 12/16/11. He has since continued to add to the page culminating with this edit last night, 12/26/11. I approached him about this beginning yesterday with this entry on his talk page. He removed the entry shortly afterward and added more attack content. I then placed a template warning re: keeping attack pages here. He then responded by again removing what I had placed on his talk page here. I then placed the request for speedy delete here, he responded inappropriately and against the instructions clearly stated on the tag by removing it (as seen here). I don't know what can or should be done in this case, but it seems that no matter what I have done as far as bringing the attack content to his attention and asking him to remove it, he will continue to ignore policy on the matter when I present it. If he is in violation of policy regarding attack pages (which, from reading the policy it appears he is), I would appreciate something being done administratively. (talk→ LesHB ←track) 19:37, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Well first off, we don't delete talk pages so removing the {{db-attack}} was perfectly acceptable. Secondly, from by brief view, you havent tried to discuss this with the user. You templated them, that is not discussion. Go to their talk page and express, with appropriately linked policy, why you feel that content is inappropriate in a polite, collaborative, and respectful manner.--v/r - TP 19:50, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Of course talk pages aren't completely removed, but attack page content can and should be. Further, you are incorrect: I did try to discuss it with him (did you miss that I wrote exactly that in the above?) last night. He responded by deleting what I wrote and added more attack content, indicating to me that he had no intention of discussing anything. The template was placed today (at least 12 hours after I had first tried to discuss with him). (talk→ LesHB ←track) 20:00, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

It's not an attack page -- and this report's title should be changed to a more neutral wording, as I attempted to do but was reverted twice. I believe I am allowed to gather evidence for a potential report against false allegations of harassment from User:Lhb1239 (aka LesHB) and possible issues of WP:hounding. He escalated an article talkpage content dispute by crying 'personal attack' wherever he could etc -- he doesn't seem to be able to accept disagreement without taking it personally. We were both warned for edit warring at the 3RR report he filed. And we were advised to stay away from each other by at least one admin . I have continued documenting this ongoing dispute at my talkpage because he followed me to the Occupy Wall Street article -- his first post at that article's talkpage was to mischaracterize a content dispute I was having with another editor and to disingenuously act like a neutral party. He then edit warred there with other editors. I was just about to file an ANI report on his own harassment of me now because he kept posting to my talkpage after I asked him several times not to. This may be a case of WP:boomerang. -El duderino (talk) 20:02, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

The link he gives is simply a link to this report. He has attempted to characterize my comments as personal attacks again and again without providing specific quotes. The diffs he links above contain no personal attacks. Please WP:NPA -- discussing another editor is not necessarily a personal attack. El duderino (talk) 21:01, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

• Please note: User:Lhb1239 has now started refactoring the posts above and thereby disrupt the order of response -- ie, apparently to get in all of his comments before my first comment appears. And then hypocritically scold & revert me when I restored the original order. El duderino (talk) 21:13, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

The only refactoring going on is being done by the user I am reporting. Twice he has reordered my comments/responses, and I have now twice replaced them to where I wanted them originally. He has also refactored the header on this report - I have returned it to how it was originally worded. Again, he continues to thumb his nose at policy. Most recently, policy as stated at WP:TPG. (talk→ LesHB ←track) 21:38, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) My apologies for changing the header while moving the post directly below - I'm having issues with pages not purging properly and I end up editing old revisions. Nolelover 21:42, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Wrong again. I restored the order before his interjection. He can't be allowed to keep inserting his replies in order to crowd out my first response. El duderino (talk) 21:44, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

• - comment - One thing we should look to strengthen is the guideline to make it weighted stronger against any user keeping lists of diffs against a user in his user space, this is always disruptive and completely unnecessary - these lists of diffs, allegedly for a future RFC user, are always oppressive and upsetting to the user that they are in relation to and should always be kept on the users own computer and only posted in public to actually make a report. In this case the user adds to his talkpage - "Collecting diffs and other evidence in case this dispute continues and worsens" - so do it on your own computer. Amassing such diffs is on a public userpage as I have seen is always an escalation and does nothing but cause additional rancor and disruption. Youreallycan (talk) 23:03, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Is this the place for policy discussion? You seem to support a hypocritical stance: User:Lhb1239 is allowed to make false allegations of harassment and personal attack in multiple venues yet I am not allowed to document those and defend myself? The comment you quoted about the escalation was in response to his following me to a new article as it developed. El duderino (talk) 23:25, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the policy that causes a report can be mentioned , why not. I see you are now calling me a hypocrite, of course you are, bye. Youreallycan (talk) 23:30, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

No, I described your response. Not the same thing. El duderino (talk) 23:49, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if this will help in this particular case or not, but the user Yworo has a sub-page called User:Yworo/IP incident record which documents problems he's had with a user. If an editor is sincere about documenting a problem for a possible RFC, and not just doing it to hassle someone, Yworo's approach might be a workable solution. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:38, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I would suggest WP:MFD in order to find consensus on what to do in this particular situation. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:41, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Pope Joan suspected edit warring and violation of 3RR

The question is the contiued removal of a significant date from the lead. User:PatGallacher seems to want to own the article and shows a proclivity for OR. This shows an error on my part in the fact, but shows the ongoing warring, then here and here. Yet I ask that you consult this odd and confused message at the talk page, Gallacher's last post at the bottom which is followed by my reply. Though I requested RFC at the talk, I have already asked and been ignored by an admin for help. I'm trying to improve this article per Misplaced Pages standards and resent this editor's stone walling. Djathinkimacowboy 21:26, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

You will see that I have only made 4 edits in the past 4 days, and I attempted to discuss this on Talk:Pope Joan. I am puzzled at the allegation of original research. PatGallacher (talk) 21:39, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

"Gentlemen. You can't fight in here. This is the War Room." This really isn't the place for content disputes. I would be happy to mediate on the talk page if both of you will accept. Viriditas (talk) 23:41, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

1. Essentially being left with no choice, I agreed to Viriditas' mediation. It was not satisfactory, for Viriditas to simply agree with the the other editor and attempt to close discussion. 2. PatGallacher is not being truthful. He attempted no discussion of the issue, that is clear from my diffs and the talk page, and Pat simultaneously kept reverting each modified edit I made. My apologies for this, but I see it as unacceptable behaviour on Pat's end. I am not happy with this obfuscation and double standard of Misplaced Pages rules. Djathinkimacowboy 00:44, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Let me also clarify one thing: this is not about content dispute; it has always been about PatGallacher's behaviour. Djathinkimacowboy 01:28, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that is difficult for uninvolved editors to determine because this is primarily a content dispute. Best to close this thread out and deal with it on the article talk page. Viriditas (talk) 02:43, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately I concur. This thing was going nowhere pretty darned fast from the beginning. Let's just allow any editor who desires to do so simply take ownership of any article they want. Honestly, I don't care a fig about it either way. Clearly, neither does anyone else. And I wish to repeat since it wants repeating: This is not about content dispute. This is about PatGallacher's behaviour.Djathinkimacowboy 10:19, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

User:FDR at the Ages of consent in North America article and in general

• FDR (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

As I stated at Talk:Ages of consent in North America#Most common age, User:FDR keeps adding "17 and 18" or "18" as the most common ages for the age of consent in the United States. He has now been reverted four times, and received an edit-warring warning. I left this message on his talk page inviting him to discussion, which he ignored before making his most recent edits. I made clear on the talk page that there is nothing wrong with mentioning the most common age and that FDR clearly has a problem with 16 being the most common age...but that this should not be our problem. I also disagree with PassaMethod's seemingly compromise edit to remove any mention of the most common age altogether.

Yes, this is an edit-warring issue, but I believe that it is also a bigger issue because this editor is problematic in general, as witnessed by his block. I don't understand why he was unblocked. He is even harassing User:RJR3333 (I doubt that they are the same person, logging in as one user to add the content and then another to remove it). Flyer22 (talk) 21:40, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Backstory: He posted an unblock request on his talk page some months after being indef'd for apparent vandalism by Rodhullandemu (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) in February. He said he regretted the vandalism and wouldn't do it again. He also pointed to a sock he'd made to get around the block (apparently not realizing that this is block evasion and not allowed) that seemed to have been editing constructively. I decided to give him another shot since he seemed to be earnest in his desire to resume productive editing, despite being low on cluefulness. Since I unblocked him, he's made a series of weird and disruptive edits that bring up renewed competence concerns for me. He's edit warring to restore content that is transparently not in the citations and generally not responding to messages, either because he doesn't read them or doesn't understand them. I'd appreciate it if someone else could reach him since I'm not (yet) convinced that this is simple trolling, but I would not object to a reblock. causa sui (talk) 21:52, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

• Basically, at this stage I will give him one final chance. --John (talk) 23:46, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

User:Ellybust2025

• Ellybust2025 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

A recently created account whose first article namespace edit was vandalism/hoax at John F. Kennedy International Airport (diff ). This was followed by a similar vandilism like edit (diff ). Also, the user page has a statement which kinda alludes to it being a vandalism only account. It says that the user is part of "the vandal busters team". Not only this, the page has other disturbing references to animal abuse ("He also supports inhumane treatment of animals and humans and favours beating living animals") and homicide ("enjoys killing civilians in Afghanistan."). When I came upon it, my first instinct was either vandal only account or some kind of sockpuppet. I have given the user a Level 2 vandalism warning. Cocoaguy ここがいい 23:43, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

The account needs to be indeffed, and the user page needs to be speedily deleted. I've tagged it - not sure if I can remove the content myself in the meantime.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:43, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I speedied the userpage. Insufficient warnings for a vandalism block. WP:AIV can handle this stuff. causa sui (talk) 00:45, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, I've seen accounts like this one indeffed without the usual escalating warnings, but no matter. I would like to know, though, if I'm permitted to remove the content of the user page while waiting for a decision on the speedy delete.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:55, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Not sure if I'm understanding what I'm seeing, but based on timings it looks like he recreated the user page with the original content, and then blanked it. Could an admin revdel/speedy the whole thing? He seems to have made a heartfelt confession at Cocoag's talk page. Basalisk ⁄_berate 01:55, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Actually, they recreated the userpage but with somewhat different content and then blanked it out. I'm not quite sure what the point of a speedy delete is if the user can simply recreate the page. After all, the offending material could have been blanked in the first place without a delete. Yeah, I don't trust the apology either; it's hard to assume good faith in the face of such garbage.--Bbb23 (talk) 02:31, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I have deleted the userpage again and written a note on the user talk page. A final warning, as it were. Any more vandalistic edits and the account should be indef-blocked. --Dianna (talk) 02:46, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Good enough for me. causa sui (talk) 07:38, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Subtle date vandalism

167.29.4.150 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This IP address over the past few months, and possibly longer, has been going around to articles and changing the dates on various people and events, often making them much older than they are. All unsourced, of course. It seems pretty clear that these are acts of subtle vandalism, considering how very unhelpful their edit summaries are when they use them ("GOOD MUSIC", seriously?). While it does appear that there are helpful IPs editing through this city of Memphis IP, the vandalism rather offsets any good the others are doing. Since this appears to be a long term ongoing thing, I wanted to report it here rather than to AIV. Not sure if this should have gone on AN instead though. Silverseren 00:49, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Did I type something in wrong, is my browser not updating or what? Because I can't see this section on the page. Silverseren 00:53, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

There we go. Weird. Silverseren 00:54, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

If dates are sourced, they should be set to whatever the source says. If the date isn't sourced, it should be removed altogether, whether it's this IP's edit, or the original contention. The Mark of the Beast (talk) 00:55, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

While that is theorectically the case, in reality we work with the de facto stance that a basic fact which has been in an article for a long period of time and has withstood scrutiny and not been challenged has a certain amount of status, and should not be replaced except with a sourced fact, or, at the very least, a convincing explanation. Although the hope is that all facts in Misplaced Pages should be sourced, the truth is that the encycylopedia would be decimated if we removed every single unsourced fact in it, so we utilize a kind of triage to prioritize those that need sourcing the most. Changing dates and numbers is a very serious kind of sneaky vandalism, because it's frequently overlooked, so -- at least in my mind -- I'm immediately suspicious of any change of this kind which is made without explanation or sourcing. In the case of the IP here, the one change of fact that I investigated -- the change of the birth date of Hasbro CEO Brian Goldner from 1963 to 1943 -- was incorrect, which tends to support the allegation that there may be sneaky number-changing going on, or, at the very least, sloppy editing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:39, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I have put a non-templated warning on the IP's talk page. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:44, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Eagles247 restoring personal attacks

• Eagles247 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Beeblebrox (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I have removed Beeblebrox's personal attack here, and reverted it 3 times already, and then Eagles247 had restored it thrice. The core of the no personal attacks policy is "Comment on content, not on contributors". I would like to see what can be done here. Thanks. (Would you mind signing my guestbook?) -Porch corpter (talk/contribs) 05:37, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Any person in good judgment will see that this sentence is clearly not a personal attack. On a more relevant note, Porchcorpter's behavior at that page needs to be looked at. Eagles 24/7 (C) 05:41, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

It's a comment on behavior, hence it's not a personal attack. Side note: I trust Beeblebrox to know what he's talking about. The OP needs to look in the mirror and figure out why an admin might say something like that. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:49, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Or this. Eagles 24/7 (C) 05:50, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Baseball, Beeblebrox is calling me trouble. That is a personal attack. A more appropriate thing would do is to assume good faith on other users, analysing their recent history, and commenting on their actions. Because none the less, I've been causing some problems before my topic bans, but now I've worked a lot with Worm, and I seem more confident in Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. (Would you mind signing my guestbook?) -Porch corpter (talk/contribs) 06:01, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Speaking of your good faith, maybe you could explain the good faith behind this implied death threat you made: ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 06:05, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh good god. I've received worse "threats" in chain emails. Swarm 06:08, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I did not say something like "I'm going to kill you", what I said to Beeblebrox is that he will loose his administrator access when he passes away. We have a policy here on WP to desysop deceased admins. (Would you mind signing my guestbook?) -Porch corpter (talk/contribs) 06:10, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

• I stand by every word I said there, and I could not object more strongly to Porch's attempt to censor me. I am of the opinion that at this point, given Porch's staggering denial/rejection of consensus, his attempts to use his past mentoring as a shield from any future blame, and his years-long history of being unable to acknowledge and learn from his mistakes, Misplaced Pages and Porchcorpter should go their separate ways for a while. Beeblebrox (talk) 05:55, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
• That isn't a personal attack.
  ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 05:58, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
• PC is correct in that DR isn't the place to discuss a user—this is the place. So as long as we're here, do we need to discuss a concrete remedy, Beeblebrox? (No opinion personally, but you sure seem to feel strongly.) Swarm 06:00, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
• Close without delay. Nobody Ent (Gerardw) 12:10, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Site ban for Porchcorpter

Porchcorpter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• My remedy is simple: full site ban. Actually he just suggested that we discuss the matter at the DRV, so we muight as well go there right now. Either indef with WP:OFFER if people think that will help or a straight up one year ban. Maybe the maturity he keeps promising to have acquired will actually become evident during that time. Problems with this user have persisted for years, he is manifestly unable to comprehend the majority of WP policies, the Herculean efforts of WormThatTurned to mentor him have clearly failed, and well, look what is happening right now. He opened a report saying "look at me refactoring someone's remarks and then edit warring! Look closely and you will also see that I do not know what the words "personal attack" or even "name calling" mean. I can never be wrong again because I had a mentor who said I was all better. The fact that he actually sided against me several times when I was clearly wrong and acting against consensusdoesn't matter! " Everything that can be tried short of more sanctions has already been tried. He can't stop whining about the last sanctions despite the unanimous support for them. Enough is enough. You can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn, and you can't work cooperatively with someone who won't respect consensus and does not understand any of the policies that govern editing here. Which he doesn't really do anyway, see my recent post on his talk page for some stats related to that. Beeblebrox (talk) 06:17, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

  Then in this case, why did I pass Worm's test, got the barnstar for passing, and many times he was saying that I am making progress? (Would you mind signing my guestbook?) -Porch corpter (talk/contribs) 06:20, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

  Beeblebrox, your point has now been made. Eagles 24/7 (C) 06:22, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose - In what way have I been disruptive recently? I don't even know. Why I opened up the DRV is because I wanted a consensus on deleting non-G4 content. (Would you mind signing my guestbook?) -Porch corpter (talk/contribs) 06:26, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Some things to add: If I've ever not listened to people, and continued to make more and more mistakes, I would not have a clean block log (, . Yet I've had only one very limited sanction on Misplaced Pages, and got good results from Worm. (Would you mind signing my guestbook?) -Porch corpter (talk/contribs) 06:36, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

• You've wasting the community's time with the MfD, and you're wasting our time with the DRV and this discussion you began. Eagles 24/7 (C) 06:35, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support one-year ban - It is apparent that Porchcorpter is not yet ready maturity-wise to be a competent Misplaced Pages editor, and since he has not edited an article in over a month, his intentions here are unclear. The disruption needs to end and I've seen no change since the last time we were here. Eagles 24/7 (C) 06:34, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. Don't be ridiculous. The Mark of the Beast (talk) 06:44, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
• Support any block/ban of six months or longer, and provided that any lifting of a block would be accompanied with an undertaking that there will be no further attempts to waste the community's time with silly deletion reviews or other rehashing of the past. If Porchcorpter cannot accept the advice of experienced editors, they should not be editing Misplaced Pages. When editors relentlessly argue about content in an article we can at least hope that some good result will eventually occur. By contrast, relentlessly arguing about a nonsensical user page has no redeeming features. Johnuniq (talk) 06:58, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose This proposal shows Beeblebrox's own immaturity by over-reacting to situations. This proposal is completely ridiculous. This proposal does not seem warranted at this time. Silverseren 07:00, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not proposing he be banned solely because of this one incident, which is perfectly clear in my previous remarks. This is but a symptom of a long term pattern of trying to whitewash his personal history here, combined with a general lack of competence and understanding of WP policies, which he has demonstrated again and again. Don't take my word for it, this isn't abouyt me despite your attempt to make it so. Look at his talk archives (which he once tried to erase all trace of in an attempt to avoid just this situation) and a picture emerges of a user who has had many, many opportunities to reform, and has failed. Some people just don't get it and cannot act in a productive manner in this environment. There's no point trying to blame anyone for it, best just to admit it and take the approipriate action. Some rather intense mentoring has failed to resolve the problems, so I don't see what other reasonable choice we have. Beeblebrox (talk) 07:12, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

If you're the one proposing the site ban, then it's your job to show why the user deserves as such. It's not up to me to dig through his pages trying to find what you're talking about. Silverseren 07:19, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

By the way, since Porch likes to brag about what a good job he did while being mentored, here are his mentors own words on the subject , which are not exactly the glowing report of success he makes them out to be. Note also the incessant failed attempts at "hat collecting" including four failed RFAs, with a fifth in prep just before the topic ban, followed by an attempt to get edit filter permssions the day after the ban expired. An effort, which as you can see here failed and was also opposed by his mentor. There's more along those lines if you look for it. Beeblebrox (talk) 07:26, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Since when do I want to become an admin now? I've dropped my goal for adminship. Look at my user page, and see where does it say that I wish to become an admin. And for EFM, I am not going to request it until I get the competence to use it. I hadn't known that EFM requires competence until I was told. (Would you mind signing my guestbook?) -Porch corpter (talk/contribs) 07:37, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Since when did he say you still want to become an admin? Eagles 24/7 (C) 07:44, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

This is exactly the problem. His reply reads as though he skimmed my remarks and responded to a word here or there that he recognized without even trying to comprehend the overall point being made. And, really, " I hadn't known that EFM requires competence until I was told" Seriously? I mean, do I even have to explain what is wrong with a statement like that? Even though part of the rreason for his topic bans was incompetence, he apparently still does not even know what the word competence means. This is not the type of problem I think we can fix here. WP:THERAPY applies. Beeblebrox (talk) 09:43, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Those links help a lot. If you were asking for anything besides a site ban, i'd probably support. But site bans are for only the most exceptional cases, that involve things like hordes of sockpuppets or mass vandalism across language wikis. This case just isn't anything close to those standards. A block or topic ban, fine, but a site ban is asking too much. Silverseren 08:03, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Just so, I think it was all this about competence that Worm was talking about. I wonder how it can be competence issues, having only have made a few mistakes with CSDs, and then self-reverting your additions of the CSD tags, anyone who reviews the whole of it and explains the truth about it will say the correct thing. I don't think Worm actually reviewed it, which is surprising. Even 28bytes did not actually review it, and just declined my EFM request. But I don't want EFM until I've been told by the community that I've got no competence issues. (Would you mind signing my guestbook?) -Porch corpter (talk/contribs) 08:36, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not so sure that history agrees with that statement. We have banned numerous users who have contributed greatly to this project but had behavioral problems that made it nearly impossible to work around them. To be clear, I am not suggesting an eternal site ban with no hope of appeal, as is the case with the type of bad faith users you describe. Porch seems to almost always be acting in good faith. That's another part of why he has been given so much leeway despite the issues I've identified. However, as we all know AGF is not a suicide pact. You can see right here in this thread and in the discussion we just had on his talk page (along with most other discussions in his archives) that he often seems to reply to comments made by others without even reading them all the way through first. If he is still doing that after years of attempting to contribute here, I don't see any hope that there will be a sudden turnaround anytime real soon. This type of behavior has been going on for years. He has been through a six month topic ban and a prolonged mentorship program already. Truth is, I don't enjoy this any more than you do, but there comes a point where decisions must be made and reality must be faced. However, if you would prefer a block as opposed to a ban under the same types of conditions I can't see that it makes a huge difference. Beeblebrox (talk)

• Support Either a site ban, or a topic ban from anywhere outside his own userspace (he can WP:NOTWEBHOST if he must, so long as we don't have to see it). At the most generous, a site ban that limits him to articlespace and away from WP. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:03, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

  NOTE: Andy Dingley has a history of attacking me. (Would you mind signing my guestbook?) -Porch corpter (talk/contribs) 09:06, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

• If the parties involved could just step back and take a deep breath, then the issue can be resolved more effectively for all. Engaging in pointless edit warring over a relatively mild statement, then escalating the issue to ANI is counter-productive. Porch, decisions made in haste can often be ill-informed - I urge you to think carefully before you pursue an action, whether it be CSDs or presenting complaints about other editors. It is always better to act with care and avoid the mistake, rather than go full speed ahead and make a mess. Also keep in mind that criticism is something that you use to improve, it is not something to get angry over. Beeble, I do believe that this ban discussion is premature. Although I know you acted in good faith, perhaps it's time to step back from this and let others handle it. —Dark 10:23, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

  That sure sounds like some well-meaning advice, but I'm curious to know how you arrived at the conclusion that this is premature. Porch has shown a general pattern of incompetence and unwillingness to listen for the last two years. He was subject to a six month topic ban and underwent a prolonged mentorship program, yet right here in this thread he has demnstrated that he still completely lacks even a basic understanding of these issues, including not bothering after all this time to even learn what "incompetence" even means. How much worse should we wait for things to get before we admit that this is a user who at this time is not able to contribute in a constructive fashion? Beeblebrox (talk) 10:40, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

  That's great, except that Misplaced Pages is not therapy, and the community is not under an obligation to embrace those who are not willing or able to focus on building the encyclopedia. If anyone who might "handle" the situation is available, perhaps they could get Porchcorpter to agree to fix their signature and to stop trying to recreate a pointless user page (see deletion review here). Johnuniq (talk) 10:42, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

  Beeble, as you are the admin who instigated the original ban proposal, I don't believe that Porch is willing to heed your advice, however well meaning it may be. Calling someone incompetent, if I may say so myself, is quite rude. Like I said before, the most productive thing to do right now is to step back. John, if Porch is not willing to help in building an encyclopedia, then why does he spend time on this project? The sole reason to edit is to build an encyclopedia. But thank you for providing issues that Porch can work on. —Dark 11:15, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

  DarkFalls, thanks for all your notes about my editing. And thanks for pointing out nearly every area I'm having trouble with. And yes, I'm instead taking DarkFall's much better advice, notes and information, than Beeblebrox's blunt pointers. (Would you mind signing my guestbook?) -Porch corpter (talk/contribs) 11:21, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support. Porchcorpter clearly means well, but I don't really think he's mature enough to competently edit an encyclopaedia. So, to stop the disruption he ends up causing, I support a lengthy block/ban. Salvio 10:59, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
• Question - There's something I don't get (actually many things, but that's another story). The guy has been editing here nearly 4 years, and has never been blocked as far as I can tell. Yet here they're talking about a complete ban. How does it get from the one place to the other? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 11:05, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

• That's one of the things that concerns me as well and definitely influences my thoughts on this being far, far too premature. Hand out some blocks first before going for an indef. We even give outright vandals that much. Silverseren 11:34, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
• Yes, it is a good question. I think it's partly because, whenever a problem occurs, he does appear to listen to what people are saying at the time and stop his problematic behavior (in the short term, at least). And while he was being mentored, I think people held back and left things for his mentor to deal with. But we do have a long term competence problem here, and anyone who has followed the events of the past couple of years could provide a long list of diffs - I don't want to do that yet though, and would prefer to wait for his ex-mentor's thoughts (as per my comment below) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:04, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

• Comment – Perhaps a ban from editing anywhere other than article namespace and article talk pages would suffice? The problems clearly lie with his editing elsewhere. Basalisk ⁄_berate 11:22, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
• Comment - I've been in email contact with Worm That Turned, and he's away at the moment but he would like to comment here when he's back on Friday. I'd like to reserve my judgment until I see what Worm has to say, and as he has had the most contact with Porchcorpter of all of us, I think we should hold off any action until then. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:50, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose and close A bogus ANI complaint is a lousy reason to initiate a site ban discussion; an OTHERDUCK response from Beeblebrox would be far more productive to Misplaced Pages. This "boomerang" mentality leads to a perception of double standards (whether true or not) that fuels much of the angst and lack of consensus underlying the current 100+ comment RFAR. While I have not adequately reviewed the history to make an independent assessment, the support comments from other editors provide a useful heuristic than some action be taken; I recommend an RFC/U as I see no indication one has been tried. While the result could be the same as any discussion here, it makes it clear to the community that any sanctions imposed on Porchcorpter are a result of their entire body of contributions, not a potshot at an admin. Nobody Ent (Gerardw) 12:10, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Widespread edit-warring

User:‎MirkoS18 has recently decided that he shall enter the Cyrillic alphabet transliterations (used in the Serbian language) into the infoboxes of the articles on various Croatian settlements he considers are Serbian enough. Upon entering the transliterations the user also informed the participants on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Croatia that he will do so, users voiced opposition and a long discussion ensued (the threads start here and go all the way down). The user's proposals on the modification of the infoboxes are opposed on those threads. That however, did not stop ‎MirkoS18 engaging in a weeks-long edit-war against several users on six articles to push his opposed changes.

• Trpinja -
• Negoslavci -
• Markušica -
• Šodolovci -
• Jagodnjak -
• Borovo, Croatia -

I was asked to help, and MirkoS18 was cautioned several days ago that he is engaged in very serious edit-warring and that further reverts will cause the whole matter to be brought up here, and what happens happens. The user's response was "as for your threats that I will be punished for removing vandal-like and censor-like edits of that user, I am prepared to take the consequences." ("Što se tiče prijetnji da ću biti kažnjen zato što uklanjam vandalske i cenzorske postuke spomenutog korisnika ja sam spreman snositi posljedice") . Since then he has restored his additions twice on all six articles. --DIREKTOR 05:52, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Just one example article Trpinja (Undid revision), User:MirkoS18 against all:

27 September 2011. Timbouctou, ,

28 September 2011. Timbouctou, ,

29 September 2011. Timbouctou, ,

4 December 2011. IvanOS,

21 December 2011. IvanOS ,

23 December 2011. Direktor,

24 December 2011. IvanOS ,

27 December 2011. Sokac121 ,

This needs to stop.--Sokac121 (talk) 10:57, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

• IMHO, no point in blocking ‎MirkoS18 (talk · contribs) now, considering he has not edited for nine hours. That would just be punitive. I have issued a warning, though; should he persevere, I'll block. Salvio 11:15, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

User threatening to keep on disrupting

. Please notice that the main international notability of the subject of the article is his association with unsavoury (to many) figures, and that the user's claim of unfairness is in itself the actual bias. Cheers, --Insert coins (talk) 08:57, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

User is doing what he/she says: . --Insert coins (talk) 10:47, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Really? I thought it was an article about a comedian and political activist, not an article about Mr Might Be Friendly With Somebody Right-Wing. A couple of edits attempting to tone down criticism in a BLP are hardly disruptive.

However, a look at the history shows Insert coins has been very keen to ensure that readers get the message he's a Bad Person at every opportunity.

...and so on. Is this appropriate in a BLP? Apparently it's vital that the lede drives home the message that the subject has close ties to holocaust deniers and the national front, even though sources don't connect him so directly. I consider that pattern of editing to be much more problematic than the two edits by 8elema. Is it boomerang time? bobrayner (talk) 11:35, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Insert coins, I've just reverted your latest edit; please start a thread on WP:BLPN, if you want to restore those bits of info. Should you fail to do so, I'll protect the article. Salvio 11:52, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Dynamic IP user

Anon. user with dynamic IP (the latest used IP is being 99.19.40.123) is continuously adding different news sources (e.g. The Wall Streat Journal, Bloomberg, etc) to the articles' talk pages. Although this may be useful in some cases, in general this is against of talk page usage guidelines (the talk page is for discussing improvements to the article and this is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject) and looks more like spamming. For example, IP 99.19.40.123 has made only that kind of edits (). E.g. from the seven sections on the Talk:Keystone Pipeline, four are links sections added by anon dynamic IPs from the same region. Editor is warned here, here, and most recently here. The issue is discussed also here. Beagel (talk) 10:41, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

User:Eric1985

In August 2010, this editor was blocked indefinitely for "off-wiki canvassing regarding Israel/Palestine". On 28 October 2011, the block was lifted by Panyd, "on the strict provision that you stay away from anything related to the Israel/Palestine conflict or the topic of Judaism" On 7 December, the editor made this edit to Hummus, replacing "Palestine" with "Palestinian homes and restaurants", and later with "Palestinian territories". This is incontrovertibly a breach of his unblock conditions. There have been several edit wars regarding the origin and regional distribution of foods in the Middle East, while renaming Palestine to suggest that it refers to individual homes, rather than a national community, is characteristic of the canvassing and other behaviour which led to the original ban. If this editor is unable to honour the commitment he gave when unblocked, then he needs a sharp reminder. RolandR (talk) 11:39, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

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