Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 00:34, 6 April 2006

This article was nominated for deletion on 28/3/2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

POV rant

This entire article is nothing more than an Original Research, POV rant and should be deleted. - — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.85.195.227 (talk • contribs)

I just saw a program on TV (C-SPAN perhaps. I didn't notice.) with a panel that included Congress members, John Dean (of Watergate fame), and others debating the impeachment of Bush. This is real and gonna get realer. WAS 4.250 00:14, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree - this piece is nearly exclusively POV, and as a result, has no place on Misplaced Pages. Mhking 02:24, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Clearly these comments are based upon opinions that were formed without reading the provided sources. Too bad. Nomen Nescio 02:28, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

You want discussion? No problem. All of the sources cited are POV sources that have a proven anti-Bush bias. As a result, they have no place on Misplaced Pages. There are certainly empirical resources out there (including stories in the past week of an entire town in Vermont which passed a resolution calling for the President's impeachment), but those are what belong there -- not POV blogs and other opinion-driven pieces. I would strongly ask that a POV warning be attached to this article, barring it's complete rewriting to reflect a NPOV. Mhking 02:29, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Could you elaborate on why analysis by lawyers is POV? Have you read the sources? Nomen Nescio 02:35, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Counterpunch, The Nation, CommonDreams, Democracy Now, The Center for American Progress, AlterNet, Human Rights Watch, TruthOut, IPS News, the Global Policy Forum, Human Rights First, Tom Dispatch, and the several blogs you have cited are all opinion-based sources that do not offer empirical news, and have a demonstrated bias against Bush, his administration and his policies. In addition, many of the mainstream newspaper sources you cite are opinion-based or editorial articles that, once again, do not cite empirical news, but provide the opinion of the writer. Now, that being said, NONE of those sources have any place in an article that seeks to be NPOV. I placed the {{bias}} tag at the top to request third parties to look at the piece and to provide their opinion. You, by reverting the tag, are hampering that process. Mhking 02:48, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Are you saying that because the articles are not written by FOX News they are POV? And do you claim that since the articles are published by sites you claim are POV the legal analysts are not trustworthy? Nomen Nescio

No, I am saying that because they are opinion-driven articles, as opposed to news or non-opinion-driven pieces, that they have no place here. For each charge, there are certainly right-wing counterpoints out there, but those have no place on Misplaced Pages either. They should not have POV bias in any way, shape or form. You have 60-some-odd sources, and more than 2/3 of those are opinion-driven. Mhking 03:06, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

You are incorrect, please see Misplaced Pages:Guidelines for controversial articles and WP:NPOV and Misplaced Pages:NPOV tutorial,

The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these are fairly presented, but not asserted. All significant points of view are presented, not just the most popular one. It is not asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions.

Nomen Nescio 03:17, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I beg to differ with you -- would you be opposed to a third party (or parties) looking at it and providing input? Mhking 03:20, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

If you feel the need to ask for RFC, please do. However, if it is possible to discuss the matter and try to resolve it between us it would be better. Nomen Nescio 03:26, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

As I mentioned initially, I've got no problem with citing non-POV sources in this piece - I cannot deny that there have been calls for Bush's impeachment; but the overwhelming preponderance of POV-driven sources is what I take offense to here. There are plenty of places to cheerlead for or against Bush or anyone else's political agenda on the Internet. This should not be one of them. Mhking 03:29, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Feel free to add other comments. As to POV or NPOV, that is not about discrediting sources. Opinion is allowed, as long as it is evident that it is opinion. NPOV only means that "All significant points of view are presented." Anyway, let's wait and see what others think. Nomen Nescio 03:35, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Reality

The reality, beyond any spin, is that the President has acted in ways that have caused people to say he should be impeached. Among these realities are the questionable wiretappings inside the United States, the invasion of Iraq based on lies, his refuting the Geneva Conventions and federal law relating to torture (a federal crime with no time limit), his extraordinary rendition of prisoners (torture by proxy), his illegal treatment of prisoners (detainees), his gross negligence in the Hurricane Katrina disaster, his participation in the leaking of classified information to cover up his invasion of Iraq lies, and all manner of accusations of abuse of power. WAS 4.250 03:12, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Reality or not, in this case, is immaterial. Opinion-driven pieces do not belong on Misplaced Pages. Mhking 03:15, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

More to the point, are the accusations incorrect. Did the administration misrepresent the cause for war? Have detainees been tortured? Was Katrina horribly mishandeld? Does this administration assert broad war powers? In other words, are these allegations not based upon fact? Nomen Nescio 03:23, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

What does "Opinion-driven pieces do not belong on Misplaced Pages" mean? Shall we delete God? WAS 4.250 14:04, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages description: "An NPOV (neutral, unbiased) article is an article that has been written without showing a stand on the issue at hand. This is especially important for the encyclopedia's treatment of controversial issues, in which very often there is an abundance of differing views and criticisms on the subject. In a neutral representation, the differing points of view are presented as such, not as facts." The assertations here are presented as defacto fact, and not represented as the opinion of the writer. As I mentioned, my problem is that opinion is being presented as fact. Mhking 16:00, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

If you are saying that the contents itself is correct but it should be better shown that it is not fact but opinion, feel free to show here what sentences you refer to. Furthermore, if you make suggestions how to improve these sentences to NPOV standard progress and have a constructive debate. Thank you. Nomen Nescio 17:01, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Rfc

I've come here via the Rfc. First off, I dislike President Bush and think that he has abused the power of the Executive branch. Despite my personal feelings, however, I think that certain passages of this article are not neutral point of view as written. Language needs to be inserted into some passages that indicates that certain points are merely alleged by critics. As a whole, however, the article is extremely well-sourced with verifiable sources that have presented the various rationales. This fact makes it difficult to claim no original research, Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox, or Misplaced Pages is not a crystal ball violations. That said, editors of this article should remain vigilant to ensure that this article continues to adhere to these policies and NPOV. - Jersyko·talk 03:57, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Reading the edit comments I feel that Mhking thinks that NPOV means no biased sources. This is not correct, it only means that different views must be presented and the reader can decide what to think of it. See WP:NPOV:

• The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these are fairly presented, but not asserted. All significant points of view are presented, not just the most popular one. It is not asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions.

Feel free to read about Misplaced Pages:Guidelines for controversial articles:

• An article about a controversial person or group should accurately describe their views, no matter how misguided or repugnant. Remember to ask the question, "How can this controversy best be described?" It is not our job to edit Misplaced Pages so that it reflects our own idiosyncratic views and then defend those edits against all comers; it is our job to be fair to all sides of a controversy.

Nomen Nescio 16:48, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Similarity of 2 pages

I just somewhere saw these 2 pages:

Movement to impeach George W. Bush

Rationale to impeach George W. Bush

What is the difference between the two? Is there one or is it just a double? --Jared / 20:57, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Good question - I note that a number of text-items have been moved to this page from that one. Is there any logical reason for that, other than to move this part of the discussion away from the original page? Mhking 22:30, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

It is wikipedia policy to start a subpage when an article is getting too long. One might debate whether including this in the original makes it too long. But I felt that this page, with the numerous sources which are necessary to address the invalid criticism by some editors, would make the original beyond acceptable. Furthermore, it is evident that discussing the movement is entirely different from discussing the reasons to impeach. Nomen Nescio 11:26, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I see. Thanks --J@red / 14:16, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Controversial tag

I put that at the top in order to make certain that there are not wholesale pages (blanking of entire sections or otherwise) without conversation here. As on the other page, however, the inclusion of blog-material is definitely suspect. While some of the opinion-driven sections have been identified as such, others have not. Mhking 22:32, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Please show what sentence is solely based upon blogs. As I asked earlier, if you feel a sentence is POV discuss it here and suggest improvement. To simply state the article is POV without substantiating your assertion is not constructive. Nomen Nescio 11:29, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Case-in-point -- your reference #6 (Wiretapping probably impeachable offense): Each of the references cited are from opinion-based articles, yet the paragraph where that citation is presented is not presented as an "opinion." Please keep in mind that I understand and appreciate that this is a subset of the other article (Movement to impeach George W. Bush), but an encyclopedic article would not contain references of that sort without indicating that they are someone's opinion as opposed to presenting those items as empirical fact. Your personal jibe regarding Fox News the other day implies that a conservative point of view that is also presented as opinion in this same context (in your estimation) is invalid. Please do not misunderstand me -- my point is that this is not a soapbox, and should not be used as a bully pulpit to only present one side of the equation. I -- admittedly -- am not as well-versed or well-researched as you are in terms of specific articles (one problem is that time is at an extreme premium for me present), but that is no reason not to indicate opinions as just that: opinions, not facts. Mhking 14:03, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

The NFSA is a law that was passed by Congress, not an opinion. Let's keep that straight, alright? Kevin Baas 16:52, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Fine. I have no problem with that. There must be some articles that are not opinion-based that cite that, yes? Mhking 22:55, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

If I understand correctly Mhking is talking about:

Such critics therefore believe that since the claimed legal authority is invalid, FISA has been violated, constituting a felony and as such an impeachable offense. (emphasis added)

To me the sentence starts with mentioning this is what critics believe. What part of this do you refer to when saying: "references of that sort without indicating that they are someone's opinion as opposed to presenting those items as empirical fact?" Nomen Nescio 23:18, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Slightly altered the sentence. Nomen Nescio 23:45, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

(re your most recent edit) Thank you. Yes, I'm being almost dense about it (admittedly). And yes, I'm probably more sensitive than most about it as someone who is admittedly libertarian (little "l"; though Bush has pissed me off royally of late), and more supportive of the Bush Administration than most. I've just been asking for some even-handedness and fairness overall - nothing more. Mhking 23:54, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

If the current version is acceptable can you show another example? As you see, I am willing to discuss if you explain what the exact problem is. This is more constructive don't you think? Sincerely Nomen Nescio 00:27, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Not a problem - it will take me a bit of time (as I said earlier, time for me is at a premium these days), but I'll be happy to point others out. (case in point -- with the severe weather here in the southeast, my time tonight is about shot to hell) And yes, I agree that this is far more constructive. I've had less luck with that approach elsewhere on Misplaced Pages. Mhking 00:50, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Since the contents is no longer disputed and Mhking is working to resolve what is left of possible ambiguous sentences I will remove the POV tag.No major claim of POV remains AFAIK. Nomen Nescio 12:23, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Hurricane Katrina

I removed a section on Hurricane Katrina, see this diff. The source cited did not mention Katrina once; indeed it is an article solely about Iraq and related disputes. If a credible source can be provided describing Bush's Katrina response as grounds for impeachment, feel free to re-add the section. Christopher Parham (talk) 05:28, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with the above - there's a vast gulf between an inept response and an impeachable offense. The things that have been bandied about are Iraq, wiretapping, and (if you ask Pat Buchanan) immigration policy. BDAbramson T 05:44, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

• • Oddly enough, a 5 minute search on google resulted in numerous articles asking for impeachment following Katrina. So I restored it with sources. Whether the call to impeach is warranted is another matter. Feel free to add comments dismissing Katrina, or any other argument, as grounds for impeachment. Nomen Nescio 11:50, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
    • I didn't find any sources I considered credible...all those seem like online-only magazines. I don't think such sources improve the image of the project. However, at least there is now some mention of Katrina as grounds. Christopher Parham (talk) 15:47, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Abuse of powers

I noticed this entry was changed:

These have been used to justify the aforementioned policies. In effect, this is about assertions of inherent power in the executive to override constitutional, international, congressional limitations, and judicial limitations.

I am confused. What part of the sentence is incorrect or not substantiated by sources? Nomen Nescio 16:31, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

• What is the sentence even supposed to mean? It seems to me that the question is whether Bush's actions have overridden such limitations -- crticis argue that they have and do, while supporters argue that Bush's actions were within whatever limitations exist. I rewrote the section to attribute the two views to the two parties, which the sentence above does not do. Christopher Parham (talk) 18:31, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Then the question is what limitations exist? Some would argue that the consitution grants all power to the executive, and america is based on rule of person, rather than rule of law. Others would argue the contrary. That is the main controversy, when you remove all the specious rhetoric. The constitution is pretty clear tho, so i have no idea how we can derive the case of the administration from their presumed source of authority. Kevin Baas 18:17, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

FISA

Clearly Bush's supporters and critics are in disagreement on whether he had violated the law, and nobody who is in a position to deliver an authoritative statement (i.e. a court of law) has ruled on the issue to my knowledge. So it seems inappropriate to record the statement as undisputed fact; instead I have attributed it specifically to his critics. Christopher Parham (talk) 19:52, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Bush's supporters, in congress at least, seem to be in agreement that he violated the FISA law. They argue that as commander in cheif, the president has the constitutional authority to break laws. In addition, the FISA law is very simply: domestic wiretaps = get a warrant from the secret court. (<-notice the period) when "domestic wiretaps" is not equal to "get a warrant from the secret court", thermodynamic equilibrium is broken, and the system bifurcates into rule of law or rule of men. what's at issue is not whether it's against the law, anymore than whether 2+2=4 is in question. what's at issue is whether it's important that 2+2 make 4, as opposed to say 6 or 9. Kevin Baas 20:37, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think anything's at issue besides who says what, and how we can best represent those statements here. Anyway, take a look at it now and see what you think. Christopher Parham (talk) 20:53, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

hmm.. talking about who says what (it's important what the law says too, so many we should cite that?), didn't congress ask the federal government committee responsible for asking these questions, and didn't they give an answer? That's a pretty fricking authorative source, eh? Who can find it first? Kevin Baas 21:19, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, i think it's beauutifull! I want to do carnal things with it. (sorry, i'm in a silly mood. honestly, i think it's great.) Kevin Baas 21:22, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it is unreasonable to suggest that only after a judge has ruled we can say FISA was violated. Example: if I steal a DVD I violate the law, no judge is needed to say that. Your argument is that a criminal that is not convicted by a judge has not violated the law. Or better yet: a criminal is he who gets caught (convicted). An odd statement to say the least. Clearly, the President has violated FISA, and all legal analysis to date says the same: this program is not compatible with US law. However, the administration has suggested arguments for why violating FISA in this case would be legal. The question is not whether FISA was violated, but if that is legal. Nomen Nescio 23:12, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

In this case you are incorrect. In the United States the presumption of innocence is one of the hallmarks of our legal system. If you steal a DVD you are not guilty of violating any laws until you have been found guilty by a court of law. Likewise, the POTUS is not guilty of violating FISA until some authoritative body has concluded so.---RWR8189 23:35, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I am not saying anybody is guilty. But your position is that without a judge and jury no crime can be committed. Tell that to victims of the violators of the law that were not apprehended. So, as long as nobody catches the criminals these victims were not murdered, not stolen from, not raped, et cetera. No judge, no crime. Nomen Nescio 00:17, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Obviously, the DVD bit is a rather false analogy...however, your point is correct in that the argument is not about whether the text of the FISA was violated/"circumvented" but rather whether the law applies at all. I'm not sure that "violated" is the best term to use since presumably if the law did not apply in the first place, it was not violated -- but I can't think of any particular phrasing that would be more neutral. Anyway, so long as the passage sets out clearly from the outset that there is a dispute over whether the action was illegal I think it is fine. Christopher Parham (talk) 00:04, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Concur. Nomen Nescio 00:17, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

We live in a system of tripartite governmental authority. Currently, the excutive branch is controlled by Bush. It's Bush's position that FISA is trumped by his authority over international issues / national security, in that, he contends that it was international calls relating to national security which were monitored. Whether you agree with that position or not, it is true that under our Constitution, each of the three branches do have some areas of exclusive purview. Bush contends that this is one of the executive branch's such areas. For you to conclude that he is wrong, you are taking sides against him and are being POV. Bush's position is that FISA in this instance, exceeds its authority under the Consitution in that in passing it, Congress has stepped into an area of exclusive presidential authority. Simply put, the President asserts that beyond keeping Congress informed - which he did, he is not bound to obey FISA in these instances and FISA unconstitutionally constricts presidential power and hence, attempting to obey it in these instances, would violate his oath and duties as president. It is a forceful assertion of presidential perogative, but one that does not on its face have any evidence of mens rea attached. That being the case, there is no prima facia case that a crime has been committed. This FISA twist is merely an attempt by the Democrats and their allies to misuse the impeachment process for political gain. Merecat 11:50, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Odd statement: "an attempt by the Democrats and their allies to misuse the impeachment process for political gain." Wasn't there a time a certain political party hounded a President for cheating on his wife and trying to conceal that? Nomen Nescio 12:01, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Indeed there was. And the fact that you throw that in my face, even though I have nothing to do with that, suggests that you are trying to turn this page into a battleground, which you should not be doing - see WP:NOT. Merecat 12:04, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Clearly you feel offended and I apologize for that. But all I wanted to do is show you that the argument is flawed. If you accuse Democrats of partisan actions, you should say the same of the Republicans in the Clinton impeachment. Furthermore, contrary to the Clinton case, we now have several actions that at least warrant further investigations, as they might be impeachable offences. To dismiss any inquiry is premature, nobody really knows if a case can be made. That is why investigation is needed, but for some strange reason even that is impossible and considered partisan. Nomen Nescio 12:22, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

This particular article is about Bush, not Clinton. Please stay on topic. Merecat 04:12, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Please stop trolling. Kevin Baas 15:19, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Forgive the trolling remark. It's how I felt but does not neccessarily reflect the nature of your actions. I apologize. Now back to this long heated argument that isn't really about the content of the page...

You said "It's Bush's position that FISA is trumped by his authority over international issues / national security, in that, he contends that it was international calls relating to national security which were monitored." By using a grammatical conjunction, you stated two separate positions as one. The first position was that a person's "authority" trump a "law". However, the American government is to put it in the words of one of its founders "a government of laws and not of men". And the president must operate within the law just as much as a bum on the street, regardless of what the situation might be. There are laws that enable him to act as he needs to in emergency situations. Laws are written carefully so as not to to impede them. For instance, with FISA, one does not need to obtain a warrant before wiretapping domestic calls. One can wiretap and then obtain a warrant after the fact. In any case, in america therei is no "authority" that trumps laws, on any account.

Regarding the second position, wherein bush claims that it was international calls. If the wiretaps did not fall under the scope of FISA, it would be a non-issue. IT is an issue. what he claims is not what's important in determining the legitimacy, but what he does, what is known to have been done. and it is known that domestic calls were wiretapped wihout warrants. So neither position holds. Kevin Baas 17:02, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

regarding bush's interpretation of the constitution - it is the exclusive right and duty for the supreme court to check and balance other branches by deciding whether a law is unconstitutional when a particular case involving the law is brought to their court. It is a judicial power, not an executive one. Kevin Baas 17:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Kevin, as politely as I can say this, I'll simply say that you are misinformed regarding the power of the president in regards to this FISA/terrorist wire tap issue. Please read this . Pay careful attention to this:

Chairman Specter: I think the thrust of what you are saying is the President is bound by statute like everyone else unless it impinges on his constitutional authority, and a statute cannot take away the President's constitutional authority. Anybody disagree with that?

Chairman Specter: Everybody agrees with that.

Merecat 02:42, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Consider this:

• As to the administration's statutory argument in support of the NSA operation, Kris, an expert on FISA, was clearly not persuaded.
• In a rare glimpse into the inner workings of the secretive court, known as the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, several former judges who served on the panel also voiced skepticism at a Senate hearing about the president's constitutional authority to order wiretapping on Americans without a court order.
• One of the witnesses expected to testify, David Kris, is a former Associate Deputy Attorney General at the Department of Justice, where he handled national security issues. In an internal e-mail exchange that was released through a Freedom of Information Act request, he stated, "Claims that FISA simply requires too much paperwork or the bothersome marshaling of arguments seem relatively weak justifications for resorting to 'constitutional powers' in violation of the statute." He added that he did "not think Congress can be said to have authorized the NSA surveillance" via the authorization for military force in Afghanistan. "Many legal and security experts have rejected the administration's claims that the warrantless NSA eavesdropping program was both legal and necessary," said Lisa Graves, ACLU Senior Counsel for Legislative Strategy.

Nomen Nescio 17:32, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

"End Notes" style of links reduces readability

As per this message left for Jimbo, I am deeply troubled by the "end notes" style of links in this article. I am convinced that this style of external links is degrading the quality of the wiki. Merecat 08:21, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

First, this is rather harsh, you might have suggested improvemnent on the talkpage before making this statement, Second, every reference the article points you to (when more than one is available) supports the same information, there are multiple sources for one statement to address the assertions of POV-NOR-RS-et cetera, which have now even resulted in the AfD tag without even discussing the alleged POV. Nomen Nescio 11:21, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Huh? My comment is a suggestion, yes? I feel that it is. Merecat 11:28, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

"I am deeply troubled," to me does have a different connotation than,"could you redo the notes for the following reasons?" Beyond that, placing a comment on Jimbo's page is also a rather "enthousiastic" move. Nomen Nescio 11:37, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I feel you are being overly and needlessly critical of me on a personal basis. Please stop. Merecat 11:51, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Sources

Have explicitly identified who says what. Hope this satisfies those editors fearing the possible ambiguity. Nomen Nescio 16:00, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I am stating that accessing sources for verification is more clumsy with the style of end-note links used in this article, in my opinion. Also, Nescio, please remove the Netherlands flag from your signature - it slows down page loads. Sometimes the .svg file for that does not load promptly and the whole page slows down. Please consider this. Merecat 16:22, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

end notes is standard policy. if you dont like it, discuss it on the policy page (admittedly i don't know where it is) that svg is tiny, you've got to be kidding! Kevin Baas 17:05, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

POV tag

Could those that insist the article is POV at least point out what sentence exactly is POV? In other words, please discuss in stead of asserting. Furthermore, how does one make an article about certain political views NPOV?. Nomen Nescio 13:28, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I already asked for this at Merecat's talk, if he doesn't respond in 24 hours or so I'd say remove the tag. Christopher Parham (talk) 16:50, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Please see a nice list of POV complaints here. Merecat 18:57, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I looked through that page thoroughly, and, ignoring for a moment that that the content of that page is not on this one, I did not find any statements on that page pointing out what sentence is POV, or even refering to any content at all, for that matter. I don't think you understand what you are being asked here. We are not looking for broad accusations. I can arbitrarily assert that the Mathematics article is POV, but that assertion doesn't really do anyone any good. It is just as easy to make broad accusations about one article as any other, and it is as useless as it is easy. The tag itself is a broad assertion, and any broad assertions/accusations in addition to it are completely redundant. One might just as well post a hundered copies of the tag on the talk page. But you see the point is that that's completely meaningless. What sentence, in what paragraph, is inherently POV? What makes it POV? Is there a word or grammar problem? Is it missing a citation? How would you suggest one make it NPOV? Kevin Baas 19:15, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

In fairness, see below. Christopher Parham (talk) 19:17, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I see exactly one specific complaint (made by a number of people) about the article -- that its title is inappropriate. So let's work on that, and then the tag can be removed. BDAbramson suggested Rationales provided by persons advocating the impeachment of George W. Bush; how do people feel about that? It is a little ugly but seems to get the point across. Christopher Parham (talk) 19:17, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... this is a tough question. I think the current title is a fairly good title given all the possibilities, but that's not to say there can't be a better one - just that it will be more difficult to find. Consider for example a few titles that might be considered shorter and/or simpler versions of the title above suggested: "Arguments for impeach...", "Why people want to impeach..." - this is too editorial and informal - not titles for an encyclopedia, and "arguments" make it like a debate, when really it is legal grounds. However, "Grounds for impeachment..." seems to sound too strong. The word "Rationale" is, i think, a word that captures all the nuances very well; it's well suited. It says "This is their way of thinking", and "This is what leads them to their conclusion", and "This is why people say this should happen".

Rationale: 1. Fundamental reasons; the basis. 2. An exposition of principles or reasons.

All these things considered, the long and unweildy title suggested above seems to me to be the leading alternative right now. Kevin Baas 19:30, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the main change that needs to occur is that the new title needs to attribute the rationale to the people who are doing the advocacy; without such the article appears to be coming from thin air, or the rationales seems to be the work of Misplaced Pages editors. (Also changed rationale-->rationales to emphasize that the reasons come from diverse sources and are not held in common.) Another suggestion: Rationales provided by advocates of the impeachment of George W. Bush. Christopher Parham (talk) 19:43, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Call me stupid, but how many people opposing impeachment advance a rationale to impeach? In other words, rationale ipso facto refers to proponents. Having said that, do suggest a new, yet succinct title since I now understand that the title is the only major POV-perceived part of the article. Nomen Nescio 03:38, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

The point is to place some distance between the rationale and Misplaced Pages; it needs to be clear that Misplaced Pages has not produced rationales either for or against impeachment, we are merely reporting the rationales of others. It's certainly in the best interest of the article to come up with a new title, since it's safe to say that as long as it is at this title the POV tag won't come off. Christopher Parham (talk) 07:16, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Feel free to suggest a succinct title. As long as opponents of this title introduce titles that take more than 3 pages (hyperbole) the subsitute clearly is not an improvement. Nomen Nescio 20:41, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Nomen, your constant rebutting of every comment which opposes this article, grows weary. Merecat 08:19, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Renaming article

Brainstorm! (add suggestions):

• Rational to impeach George W. Bush (original)
• Rationales provided by persons advocating the impeachment of George W. Bush (Chris' suggestion)
• Rationales of movement to impeach George W. Bush Kevin Baas 20:58, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
• Reasons cited for seeking Bush's impeachment - from intro of Movement to impeach George W. Bush
• Bullet list of anti-Bush arguments
• Bullet list of pro-impeachment rationales
• List of anti-Bush, pro-impeachment rationales
• Anti-Bush, pro-impeachment, rationales
• WP:OR WP:POV anti-Bush screed
• Aggregated arguments for seeking Bush's impeachment
• Rationales seeking to impeach George W. Bush

I think the last suggestion (and current title) is frankly awful - it makes it sound like it is the rationales themselves that are seeking impeachment. I think Reasons asserted by persons advocating the impeachment of George W. Bush, unweildy as it is, is the clearest and most NPOV option. BDAbramson T 18:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

• And why is the talk page at a different place than the article? ... Please, nobody move pages unless you know what you are doing as the results of failure can be ugly. Agree with BD, though, this doesn't resolve any of the concerns at the AFD (which are the main reason to move the article) while also making the title sound terrible. Christopher Parham (talk) 18:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Fixed into Rationales to impeach George W. Bush. Still not good but at least better than what it was. Now we can continue debating renaming the article. Nomen Nescio 19:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not fixed, since the history is now in the wrong place. Christopher Parham (talk) 19:37, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Eh, oops, didn't think of that. Nomen Nescio 20:28, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

POV section titles

I have made some edits to correct what I saw as POV section titles. Any questions on this, let's talk here. Merecat 08:47, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I have corrected some of your edits and will explain.

• Nobody denies Bush has said the GC do not apply, in other words the GC are refuted
• Removing Katrina is odd, since somebody feels it is an impeachable offense. I appreciate you disagree, but Misplaced Pages is not about our believe, but what can be presented based on sources. Since clearly sources exist we should include it.
• Regarding FISA. You are well aware FISA was adopted following several transgressions involving wiretapping (similar to the current debate). Second, FISA is violated, If this is incorrect, please explain why the administration did not deny the violation of that law, but chose to say it was authorized to do so by the Authorization for the Use of Military Force (AUMF) and the Constitution (unitary executive).

Nomen Nescio 12:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Bush asserts that GC does not apply to unlawful enemy combatants. This is not the same as "refuting" In fact, if you looked into it better, you'd see that Bush is correct. The Geneva Convention is only binding on signatory countries as they interact with each other. The Guantanamo Bay prisoners are not prisoners of war under GC, because they are irregular fighters, fighting against USA without the authority of their home countries. For them to be POWs, the would have to be a) from a country that has declared war on USA, b) lawfully authorized by that country to fight USA and c) each country must be a signatory to the GC. If all three conditions are not met, then these men are unlawful enemy combatants and have no rights under the GC. On the other hand, if you want to say that they are legitimate soldiers, then the fact that none of them were in their home country's military uniform when they were caught, makes them spies - and subject to being shot without trial. Think about that. Merecat 17:18, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Incorrect. 1 Many detainees were not captured on the battlefield or even engeaged in combat. 2 Although this is the rationale advanced by the Bush administration many legal exp[erts (among which HRW) dispute the claim. So at best your assertion is open to disscussion, not fact. 3 The memo itself say refuting, but a header saying refuting the GC for Al Qaeda and Taliban is not an option. Nomen Nescio 18:00, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Redirect

I have re-directed this article to Rationales seeking to impeach George W. Bush

Merecat 08:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

And I have fixed your cut-and-paste mvoe, please use the "move" button in the future. NSLE _(T+C) at 09:00 UTC (2006-04-04)

Does that mean editors are in agreement about this name? Can the POV tag go? Nomen Nescio 12:32, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Preventing edit war

Since no WMD have been found they6 do not exist. To claim that their non-existence has to be proven is not only a logical fallacy, it is the principal reason Iraq was invaded. It is impossible to prove a negative, and since the allegation is there are WMD the burden of proof is on the proponents of this claim. Until evidence says otherwise WMD do not exist. For comparison see alien lifeforms. Nomen Nescio 16:56, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I've got 3 problems with your statement: a) Bush never said we would find them, only that USA thought Iraq had them, b) USA has found proof that a program for WMD was under way and c) you presume that USA has released all WMD related finds to press. Since when does it become mandatory for such an assumption? Allegedly is the right word. Merecat 17:04, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

• • Since when does it become mandatory for such an assumption? Innocent untill proven guilty. You are maling a mistake, unless evidence of WMD is shown their existence is allged, not their non-existence. Or could you explain how many years of not finding these weapons does it take before they do not exist? Maybe this will help, X accuses Y of being a thief. X says he is not, Y says, as long as you do not prove it you are allegedly innocent. Nomen Nescio 17:57, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

You are arguing against your own assumptions, not against the facts. When you start adressing the actual facts, as exampled by my 3 point comment above, perhaps we'll make some progress. Merecat 23:16, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Fact is no WMD have been found so this can only mean that their existence is alleged. No evidence of WMD in 2003 exists.~~

Do you even know the meaning of the word "fact"? A fact is a a datum which is asserted to be accurate as presented. In a good faith discussion, offered facts are presumed to be accurate, unless challenged and/or rebutted. What I am telling you is that you are only offering logical arguments, not facts. You have not presented a fact set which asserts that no WMD have been found. If and/or when you do, I'll be happy to challenge and rebut that in greater detail. For now though, the burden is on you to address the 3 points I raised here, which you have not. Merecat 23:31, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

There are those who beg to differ on what the primary obstacles are to progress. But our progress (or lack thereof) in this discussion will not alter the progress of events. However, I hope that the progress of events will not fall upon deaf ears, as words so often do. I also hope that more progress will be made on the article. Kevin Baas 23:42, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Does this support the fact there are no WMD found?

• Quote from Powell: "We had a good discussion, the foreign minister and I and the president and I, had a good discussion about the nature of the sanctions -- the fact that the sanctions exist -- not for the purpose of hurting the Iraqi people, but for the purpose of keeping in check Saddam Hussein's ambitions toward developing weapons of mass destruction. We should constantly be reviewing our policies, constantly be looking at those sanctions to make sure that they are directed toward that purpose. That purpose is every bit as important now as it was 10 years ago when we began it. And frankly they have worked. He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors."
• Two days after resigning as the Bush administration's top weapons inspector in Iraq, David Kay said Sunday that his group found no evidence Iraq had stockpiled unconventional weapons before the U.S.-led invasion in March.
• Iraq hid from United Nations inspectors some preliminary plans to develop banned weapons, but a U.S. survey team has found no evidence of weapons stockpiles or active weapons-building programs, a newspaper reports.

I will only agree to answer that, if you 1st answer this: If I show you some links - more recent links than those you shown here now - and these links tend to show some evidence of WMD/WMD programs, will you agree to "allegedly"? If yes, I will proceed, if no, then your mind is closed and this is not a discussion. Merecat 23:51, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Contrary to what you think I am always willing to debate. Why am I stubborn, because people make assertions but then refuse to substantiate. So if you have evidence (not assertions) these weapons have been found there is no problem in adopting your "alleged." Nomen Nescio 00:14, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

since it violates FISA

This is clearly not proven. If the Bush administration view that the AUMF in affect modifies FISA holds up to legal scrutiny, then Bush did not violate FISA. Until this is proven, it is alleged.--RWR8189 00:09, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

If an ambulances is caught speeding it violates the speeding linit. However, if it at that time is using signals that show there is anemergency the law authorizes this ambulance to do so. It still violates the law but it is given special status in which that law no longer applies. That is what I try to explain. This would mean that FISA was violated but if the arguments used are correct an the President was authorized it is not illegal. Nomen Nescio 00:14, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

You still miss the point. The FISA statute states that such and such must be done except as authorized by statute This carves out a special exception in the law, and if the AUMF qualifies as such an exception FISA is never violated, the law just works the way it was intended to.--RWR8189 01:15, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Your analogy is inaccurate. Speeding laws do not apply to en-route emergency service vehicles. Merecat 01:09, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

• Which is exactlly what the assertion is, FISA does not apply because ..... Nomen Nescio 01:12, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

No, that's not what you been saying. You've been saying that the laws have been broken, but no penalty applies. However, Bush's position is that FISA does not trump his authority and in these instances, does not apply. Laws that do not apply, cannot be broken. Laws against public nudity do not apply to private locations removed from the public eye, at which there are no members of the public. Someone being nude in such a place, cannot be charged with public nudity.

FISA does not apply in these instances, ergo, Bush cannot have committed a crime, therefore, this cannot be an impeachable offense. To state unequivocally that it is, ignores the logic of the Bush position. Bush has only authorized wiretaps which are allegedly illegal, not which are illegal. He did authorize them but the issue of their legality is in dispute. Dems say "No!", Bush says "Yes!". That's what it boils down to. To say otherwise is POV. Merecat 15:47, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I think we are saying the same but are caught in a debate about semantics. Nomen Nescio 00:22, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Rationales seeking to impeach George W. Bush

Please stop messing with the move/redirect to this new title: Rationales seeking to impeach George W. Bush. If you have questions, discuss them here. It's becoming chaos, trying to get that straightened out. Merecat 23:24, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Clearly this title is a misnomer. No rationale is seeking impeachment. Nomen Nescio 23:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

The sentence "Rationales seeking to impeach George W. Bush" is equally valid as the sentence "Justifications seeking to explain crack addiction". Both are titles. And while both may not be optimal English, each one makes clear its point. Nomen, you've caused this trouble by POV pushing this screed in the 1st place. Most of the edits in the article and talk page belong to you. Are you obsessed with impeaching Bush? Merecat 23:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Since many believe impeachment should happen I fail to see why mentioning their arguments should be disallowed. As you have noticed I am the only editor that seriously tries to make improvements. The discrepancy between criticism and tring to help better the article in other editors is unfortunate. Nomen Nescio 23:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

And your point is? We are talking about the title of the page here, not "disallowed" arguments. Merecat 23:56, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

The title you propose is incorrect. Rationales are seeeking ... is just a misnomer. If you do feel the need it has to be Rationales for seeking ..... Nomen Nescio 23:59, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Read definition #2 . Merecat 15:50, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Brillant

We now have two talk pages. You are doing great! Please do not hide behind a IP-adress, just sign in as you keep claiming that rationales are seeking impeachment.-- Nomen Nescio 23:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

new links regarding WMD = yes

"Iraqis from backgrounds such as Iraqi Police officers, Doctors, Engineers, Iraqi Govt. officials, farmers, tribesmen, etc. identified sites that contained WMDs. They explained in detail why WMDs were in these areas and asked the U.S. to remove the WMDs. Much of the WMDs had been buried in rivers (within concrete bunkers), and in the sewage pipe system. There were signs of chemical activity in the area (missile imprints, gas masks, decontamination kits, atropine needles, etc..) The Iraqis and my team had no doubt WMDs were hidden in these areas" Merecat 01:16, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

"Well here I can say 2,000 times, that the WMDs were in Iraq, and that they were used against Kurds in the north, and people in the south against Shia people, and these weapons were there up to the summer of the year 2002. When a natural disaster happened in Syria, a dam was collapsed, and Saddam said he wanted to do an air-bridge humanitarian aid to Syrian people, those who were flooded in the area. But that was not true..." Merecat 01:30, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

"The tapes are extremely significant in that they prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that as of the year 2000, Saddam Hussein had a secret plasma program to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons, or "special bombs" as he calls them." Merecat 01:40, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

"As far back as 2003, Lt. Gen. James Clapper stated WMDs have been trucked to Syria. In April 2004, Jordan’s King Abdallah claimed the 20 tons of chemical weapons seized in Amman and belonging to al-Qaeda agents were manufactured in Iraq. WMD inspector David Kay and others said Syria acted as a depository for Saddam’s WMDs. Former Justice Department official John Loftus made a strong argument that significant deposits of WMDs are buried in Syria. Israeli Lieutenant General Moshe Yaalon made similar statements in April 2004 and December 2005. Last month, FrontPageMag.com columnist Ken Timmerman detailed a briefing given by former Deputy Undersecretary of Defense John A. Shaw confirming Russian involvement. Russian General Yevgeni Primakov oversaw an operation known as “Sarandar” (“Emergency Exit”), in which Spetsnaz and other Russian assets convoyed Saddam’s weapons across the Syrian border." Merecat 01:45, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

That is alot to read. Must have some time for that, so I'll get back to you tomorrow. At first glance this is indeed interesting. Thank you. Nomen Nescio 01:49, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Although it is odd it took years for these people to tell their story, and for whatever reason the Bush administration still officially stated these weapons were not found and probably will never be found, I admit you have a point. Therefore, would altering:

Both the cited Weapons of Mass Destructionand the link with Al Qaeda used as evidence against Saddam Hussein turned out to be non-existent.

into

The current position of the Bush administration is that both the cited Weapons of Mass Destructionand the link with Al Qaeda, used as evidence against Saddam Hussein, have not been found and probably will not be found. Nevertheless, several commentators observe that weapons were found but this was overlooked by the official report. (your cites)

be a better description? Nomen Nescio 14:41, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Have used your suggestion to alter the edit. Hope you agree, otherwise let me know. Nomen Nescio 00:25, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

title

I have moved the article back to Rationales to impeach George W. Bush because:

• Rationales seeking to impeach George W. Bush is a silly title - in my understanding of English, you may have a rationale for doing something but a rationale by itself cannot seek anything
• adding seeking to the title added nothing
• user:Merecat failed to fix double redirects created by the move
• while an article is on AfD, it is better not to move it about.

-- RHaworth 06:12, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Geneva Convention controversy

In my opinion this section is original research. It should let the reader know specifically who has used this argument as a rationale for impeachment. The word "impeach" does not appear in any of the cited sources.

What are the criteria for such a section being included in the article? My thought is that some notable person/organization must actually use the rationale. A news article saying "person X has called for impeachment based on Y" seems like enough to include Y,but without such a connection how could we justify keeping the section?

I realize other editors may have complaints based on other issues or other sections, but maybe we could use this particular section to help decide what should be in the article. Or should we just wait until the AfD is over? EricR 16:14, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The AfD is over, with no consensus - see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Rationale to impeach George W. Bush. As for the GCC section, I agree that it is an WP:OR violation and should be deleted. Merecat 17:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The claims in this section look to be well verified. My argument is that there needs to be at least one more, that someone notable has used this as a rationale for impeachment. Maybe we could wait a bit to see if anyone else has an opinion? EricR 18:15, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The inclusion of this section in this article is a defacto assertion that there are calls for impeachment because of Geneva convention issues. That basic premise must be verified and as of yet, it has not been. When this is verified via a citation to a reliable source, then the "verfiy" tag can come out, not until. Merecat 23:13, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

POV

Is the current title acceptable or are there still suggestions to alter this. If not can the POV tag be removed? Nomen Nescio 00:34, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages controversial topics