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Revision as of 15:02, 23 January 2012 editWGFinley (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users5,088 editsm Reverted edits by Yfever (talk) to last version by Wgfinley← Previous edit Revision as of 05:11, 24 January 2012 edit undoWGFinley (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users5,088 edits →PCPP: block would be punitive at this point, closing with admonishmentNext edit →
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== PCPP == == PCPP ==
{{hat|{{User|PCPP}} is admonished for editing in areas of his topic ban, further violations will result in a long-term block, no further action at this time. --] (]) 05:11, 24 January 2012 (UTC)}}

''Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.'' ''Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.''


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:::*I'm not convinced that we can stretch the discretionary sanctions that far. First, I'm not sure that "Chinese government" is a ''closely related topic'' to "Falun Gong", at least in the way that phrase has been interpreted by this board in previous cases. Further, even assuming that this is an available sanction, I don't think we can employ the FLG discretionary sanctions on edits wholly unrelated to FLG. ] (]) 20:03, 19 January 2012 (UTC) :::*I'm not convinced that we can stretch the discretionary sanctions that far. First, I'm not sure that "Chinese government" is a ''closely related topic'' to "Falun Gong", at least in the way that phrase has been interpreted by this board in previous cases. Further, even assuming that this is an available sanction, I don't think we can employ the FLG discretionary sanctions on edits wholly unrelated to FLG. ] (]) 20:03, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
*PCPP is effectively under an indef TBAN, just blocked on 6 Jan for violating the TBAN and then two days later launches right back in to it again. Seems like there is little else to do but a longer block, I'd suggest 30 days with a note the indef is next. --] (]) 18:25, 15 January 2012 (UTC) *PCPP is effectively under an indef TBAN, just blocked on 6 Jan for violating the TBAN and then two days later launches right back in to it again. Seems like there is little else to do but a longer block, I'd suggest 30 days with a note the indef is next. --] (]) 18:25, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
{{hab}}


== Jiujitsuguy == == Jiujitsuguy ==

Revision as of 05:11, 24 January 2012

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    PCPP

    PCPP (talk · contribs) is admonished for editing in areas of his topic ban, further violations will result in a long-term block, no further action at this time. --WGFinley (talk) 05:11, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

    Request concerning PCPP

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    TransporterMan (TALK) 22:26, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    PCPP (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced


    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 8 Jan 2012 Recommenced editing article laced with references to Falun Gong (Clarification: the article is laced with them, not his edits)
    2. 8 Jan 2012 Ditto talk page
    3. 8 Jan 2012 Launched Dispute resolution noticeboard discussion seeking to submit the disputes about that page to dispute resolution
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

    Took these actions immediately upon returning from 24-hour block from AE here for editing the referenced article.

    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    I am not involved in the editing of the article, but am a mediator/clerk at DRN. Last block was for making edits specifically referencing Falun Gong, but topic ban is from editing any article or discussion related to Falun Gong, as this article and the DRN discussion about this article obviously are. I closed his DRN request for being in violation of his topic ban, but will reopen it if it is decided that no violation is involved with his pursuit of that article and DR about that article.

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Notified


    Discussion concerning PCPP

    Statement by PCPP

    In addressing Mr Stradivarius's and the admins' points, I composed the talk page comments before the 24 hour block was imposed as a right of reply to Homunculus's analysis of my edits. As now that I realize the full extent of the topic ban to even passing mentions, I have no further intention of editing or discussing that particular paragraph, essentially dropping my objections to anything relating to the banned topic. I opened the case at DRN because I have no intention of further escalating the disputes, but address my issues with the involved users with a third party, and hopefully solve them. In light of this, I have stroke through the points 11 and 12, and have no intention of editing the article throughout the process.--PCPP (talk) 08:31, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

    In reply to T. Canens, I wrote the rebuttal points a few hours the talk page discussion appeared, but I found out that I was given a block as I was about to save the page. I copy+pasted it after the first block elapsed.
    In response to EdJohnston, I opened the AE case because I felt that the Homunculus has behaved unfairly towards myself in the discussion process, and wish to address such concerns at DRN and hopefully settle them, as I do not wish a repeat of the previous edit wars which resulted in my sanctions. I only edited that article once since my block, and the article's issues, in regards to WP:CRIT, has been noted by several other users in the talk page, as well as Mr Stradivarius from DRN. The two passages I removed frankly fails WP:RS and WP:CRIT, since the former does not implicate CI at all, while the latter one consists of anecdotes from a Chinese language blog - the individual was not implicated in anything. Criticism articles, I believe, should provide a neutral and balanced approach to its subject of criticism.--PCPP (talk) 06:30, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

    Comments by others about the request concerning PCPP

    Comment by Shrigley

    Falun Gong features in the Confucius Institutes article primarily as a member of lists of proscribed political movements in China, of which there are many. As a result, there is some competition among fringe movements in China about which among them deserve mention on our articles. If the promotion comes not by aggressive SPAs, then they come from drive-by anonymous editors, like so.

    My point is, Falun Gong is grafted onto the page in the same way that the 9/11 Truth movement might be grafted onto any United States government article. There is no organic connection between the Confucius Institutes and Falun Gong. As the filer himself notes, PCPP did not touch any content which mentioned Falun Gong in the article.

    The talk page issue is a bit more delicate. A group of users rolled back all of PCPP's past edits on the article, including one which mentioned Falun Gong that got him topic banned, based on bad-faith presumptions. I imagine PCPP felt he had to explain himself amidst accusations that his absence on the talk page was "disruptive" and "uncommunicative". He should be commended for making no direct mention towards Falun Gong in his reply.

    The DRN was on track to resolving PCPP's interpersonal issues; content was not discussed, let alone the small minority of untouched Falun Gong-related content. Shrigley (talk) 00:41, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

    Comment by Ohconfucius

    AFAICT, this complaint is obsolete as PCPP was blocked for so doing already. The objection to him opening a case at WP:DR also seems prima facie unreasonable because it is every editor's right (especially when he is met with such hostility when making good faith edits), for he seems sincere in his efforts to find an amicable solution to impasse he faces there. I daresay that if PCPP had not made the mistake of mentioning Falun Gong in that DR request – which Transporter Man closed as being in violation of WP:FLG-A – PCPP would have avoided this AE request, but may well have been accused all the same of wikilawyering notwithstanding because on of the edits in question involved removing mention of Falun Gong. In any event, I have advised him not to touch any mention of FLG or Epoch Times, even though we know ET isn't accepted as a reliable source except in matters pertaining directly to the movement.

    PCPP's editing style and his efforts at finding such a solution are a marked departure from past confrontational behaviour. In addition, it would be wholly inappropriate to sanction him again bearing in mind he has not edited said articles again since his block. Per Shrigley, the offences mentioned above are technical in nature. Because editors seem to feel the need to leave traces of Falun Gong persecution everywhere, many are mere coatracks, that it is well nigh impossible for any editor on Chinese politics not to come up against these. --Ohconfucius 01:32, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

    Comment by Homunculus

    A point of clarification: the editor filing the AE noted that PCPP's edits at Concerns and controversies over Confucius Institutes did not directly relate to Falun Gong. Unfortunately this was not the case. PCPP deleted a whole paragraph of notable, sourced content related to Falun Gong, and severely redacted another. Both were germane to the topic. As has been pointed out, PCPP was already subject to a 24-hour ban for these deletions. I do not know whether or not he violated his ban again by pursuing the issue further on the dispute resolution noticeboard—that's a question for the admins. Homunculus (duihua) 03:00, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

    Comment by Mr. Stradivarius

    Hi all, I was aware of this dispute from the dispute resolution noticeboard and had a brief look at the article and the talk page, but I didn't actually comment at the noticeboard. Regarding TransporterMan's diffs: I'm not sure about the first one, but the second one does seem to be, in part, carrying on the conversation about PCPP's edits to the section mentioning Falun Gong. In particular, points 11 and 12 from that edit seem to be referring to diffs 11 and 12 from this post by Homunculus, of which number 11 seems to be one of the diffs for which PCPP received his recent 24h block. I also wanted to say that, while PCPP's topic ban is potentially problematic if he chooses to further edit Concerns and controversies over Confucius Institutes, when I looked at the article I saw systemic problems relating to WP:CRITICISM, which I believe PCPP was trying to correct. Because of this, I think this dispute could respond well to dispute resolution, although, as always, this would depend on all parties maintaining good conduct and a commitment to collaboration. — Mr. Stradivarius 15:38, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

    Result concerning PCPP

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
    • Mr. Stradivarius makes a good point regarding the second diff. I'd like to hear a response from PCPP about that diff before taking action, though. As to Homunculus' comment, those diffs have been dealt with already in the previous thread. T. Canens (talk) 14:54, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
    • OK. PCPP's explanation is that he composed the comment pre-block, got stopped in the middle of posting it by the block, and then posted it after the block by copy-paste. Considering that most parts of the comment is compliant with the topic ban, and the only violating part did not refer to FLG by name, it is quite plausible that he simply overlooked the infringing part's relationship to FLG (I know that I did when I first looked at it). PCPP also states that he now recognizes the full scope of the topic ban. Under these particular circumstances, I don't think a block is necessary at this time. I would close this thread with a warning that the next topic ban violation will indeed result in a long block. T. Canens (talk) 12:27, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
    • Agree with Mr. Stradivarius' point. The current view of topic bans allows editors to work on sensitive articles so long as they don't change anything regarding the topic area from which they are banned. PCPP appears to be failing to stay within the prescribed bounds, since it is clear that he edited Falun-Gong-related material on January 6. He was already blocked for that, but now he is raising a complaint at WP:DRN that seems to show no awareness whatever that he is banned from some of the topics he is raising. Inevitably any discussion of his DRN complaint is going to be a discussion of Falun-Gong-related material since numbers 11 and 12 of his diff here concern that material. In closing the January 6 AE with a 24-hour block, NuclearWarfare stated "Hopefully this will make him reconsider, because the next one is going to be a lot longer/indefinite otherwise." PCPP seems to be totally oblivious to the problem. The time may have come for a longer block. EdJohnston (talk) 04:29, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
    After more review, I'm now recommending that PCPP's ban be extended to include the topic of the Chinese government and any of its institutions.
    In a new comment, PCPP has clarified the sequence of events and he should no longer be considered oblivious of the Falun Gong problem. I've checked through some of PCPP's edits since January 1, and looked into the overall drift of his complaint at WP:DRN, the one that was the occasion for TransporterMan to file this AE request. PCPP's edits at Concerns and controversies over Confucius Institutes did not appear neutral to me. For example in this edit he removed reliably-sourced mentions of misbehavior of two directors of particular Confucius Insitutes. His edit summary for this was "Individuals not representative of the institution." In an article on 'Concerns and Controversies', he wants to remove specific reports of controversies at Univ. of South Florida and Univ. of Waterloo on the grounds that these are problems with *individuals*?
    This is only one of a series of edits that were commented on by Homunculus at Talk:Concerns and controversies over Confucius Institutes#Recent edits. I share many of the concerns expressed by Homunculus in that thread. As he says "An editor has recently made a series of fairly substantial edits to the page, but has neglected to provide any explanation of said edits.". In a later response on the same talk page, PCPP states "I believe both Homunculus and The Sound and the Fury acted in bad faith towards me in this discussion"..."And to Homunculus, I don't need self appointed minders you hounding me over every one of my edits in China related articles.."
    So here's the sequence of events:
    1. PCPP makes a series of 23 edits to the article that revise it substantially, but says nothing on talk.
    2. Homunculus responds on the talk page, lists some objections he has to specific edits, and asks PCPP to respond.
    3. PCPP comes back with a charge that Homunculus was acting *in bad faith*, and only then provides any explanation of his article changes.
    4. Without waiting for any answer from Homunculus, PCPP opens a complaint at DRN in which he charges Homunculus with showing hostility.
    It is within the scope of AE to widen PCPP's topic ban if he shows himself unable to edit neutrally in matters concerning the Chinese government, even beyond the Falun Gong question. PCPP's topic ban from Falun Gong was indefinite and it is open for review any time after May 9. I recommend that the ban be *widened* to include the topic of the Chinese government and any of its institutions, such as the Confucius Institute. EdJohnston (talk) 02:41, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
    • I'm not convinced that we can stretch the discretionary sanctions that far. First, I'm not sure that "Chinese government" is a closely related topic to "Falun Gong", at least in the way that phrase has been interpreted by this board in previous cases. Further, even assuming that this is an available sanction, I don't think we can employ the FLG discretionary sanctions on edits wholly unrelated to FLG. T. Canens (talk) 20:03, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
    • PCPP is effectively under an indef TBAN, just blocked on 6 Jan for violating the TBAN and then two days later launches right back in to it again. Seems like there is little else to do but a longer block, I'd suggest 30 days with a note the indef is next. --WGFinley (talk) 18:25, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

    Jiujitsuguy

    Jiujitsuguy (talk · contribs) is indefinitely banned from P-I articles, broadly construed. --WGFinley (talk) 05:38, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

    Request concerning Jiujitsuguy

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    asad (talk) 22:59, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Jiujitsuguy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    WP:ARBPIA#Discretionary_sanctions
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 16/12/11 Re-adds the "Archaeology museums in Israel" cat to the Rockefeller Museum article after it was removed with an edit summary of "Not in Israel". JJG provides no real explanation as to why he re-added false information.
    2. 09/01/12 Adds "Nazi Germany Ex Nazis" as a belligerent on the versus Israel side in the info box on the 1948 Arab-Israeli War article.
    3. 09/01/12 Revert and re-adds the same info without bothering to start a discussion on the talk page.
    4. 12/01/12 Revert and edit-wars the material in a third time, but decides to finally bring something up about it on the talkpage.
    JJG cites Israeli historian, Benny Morris, who writes, "Several dozen Britons, most of them former British army or police officers (by mid-March 1948 some 230 British soldiers and thirty policemen had deserted), also served in the Palestinian Arab ranks, as did some volunteers from Yogoslavia and Germany. The Yugoslavs, possibly in their dozens, were both Christians, formerly members or the pro-Axis Fascist groups, and Bosnian Muslims; the handfuls of Germans were former Nazi intelligence, Wehrmacht, and SS officers."
    The Benny Morris source also states that the Jewish Yeshuv side was supported by at least 100 Americans. The only thing JJG focuses on are the “handful of Germans”. When you compare the amounts (a handful of German ex-Nazis to 100 Americans and dozens of British) you would think, in the interest of neutrality, that JJG would have added the American flag to the Jewish Yeshuv side to represent the 100 Americans or added the British flag to the Arab side to represent the "several dozen" British soldiers. But of course JJG's purpose on Misplaced Pages would explain why he did not decide to do that. Throwing in a reactionary and emotional symbol like a Swastika, which immediately becomes associated with the Arab armies, is a very clever way to push a POV by playing on the emotions of someone who is reading the article. Considering that he was previously topic-banned for "persistent ideological POV-pushing across many articles", one would think he would try to steer clear from these kinds of edits. All of this goes without mentioning the slow-paced edit-warring that was involved, namely two reverts within 72 hours.
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Topic-banned on 4/3/11 by Sandstein (talk · contribs) for "persistent ideological POV-pushing across many articles"
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    Jiujitsuguy is probably one of the most POV-warrior minded editors who I have come across. Recently, he barely escaped sanction for misrepresenting sources to push a POV. In fact, it appears as if the only reason he was not sanctioned, was do to lack consensus among admins, as one admin in particular objected and viewed the issue as a "content dispute" rather than a conduct one. The issue with this admin was later clarified by ArbCom, to the understanding that such an issue is one of conduct.

    You would think someone so close to facing a lengthy topic-ban, and who was recently topic-banned for manipulating sources to push a POV, would be more conscious to avoid the type of POV pushing that he has engaged by the evidence of above. But it is very clear now that Jiujitsuguy just intends to use Misplaced Pages as another tool of his to push one of the most minority-POVs that exist in any major political subject in the world.

    @ElComandanteChe- It is not a content dispute. There were more British and American forces who took sides during the war than there were Ex Nazi (this according to the source JJG provided). JJG cherry-picked the the belligerents and only added the Nazis and their flag to the Arab side. The first edit is shows the pattern of what behavior that JJG continues to display, and has displayed since he last topic ban expired two months ago for source distortion and POV pushing. -asad (talk) 00:16, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
    @WGFinley- The issue is not JJG having a reliable source or not, the issue how he used it. If you want to AGF, that's your prerogative, but I know that an editor who has a history source abuse will only have done what they did with the belligerent section because they were, once again, abusing the sources. By all the evidence and the quotes that JJG has brought to the admins attention, there is no doubt that he is well read. So then the question becomes -- why did he only put the flag of the Nazis to represent a handful of Nazis and not put the flag of the British or Americans to represent an equal or greater amount of troops? The only "good faith" answer available is that a known source abuser somehow, miraculously, did not read the part about the Americans of British. But I don't think that is what JJG is even claiming. He even said to User:Sandstein a few months back that he " that misrepresenting a source is a serious offense that undermines the integrity of the entire project." If those are the kinds of standards of AGF to be upheld, say bye-bye to any reliability and objectivity to anything in the I-P area.
    Of course, there is the tendentious part and the gaming of the 1RR. He made two reverts in three days and on the second revert opened a discussion. It was not just an ordinary revert -- but a revert of highly controversial, cherry-picked material. And it wasn't just one revert of controversial material, but two reverts (mere hours apart) adding back the same controversial material. JJG exhibited the same sort of behavior at the 1948 Palestinian exodus article. Not only does he add highly controversial material into the article without consensus, he has the audacity to add it to the lead! If that wasn't enough already, he reverts without a even bothering to open up a discussion. I sure wish a ban from adding flags in a belligerent box on a single article would fix this kind of repeated POV pushing behavior. -asad (talk) 20:14, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning Jiujitsuguy

    Statement by Jiujitsuguy

    • According to Zeev Schiff, under "Makeup of Arab forces," he states that "volunteers came from among Yugoslavian Muslims, deserters from the British Army and ex-Nazis." (History of the Israeli Army, Page 29)
    • According to Leslie Stein, “Some 500 Yugoslavs plus a number of Germans” fought on the Palestinian behalf. (The Making of Modern Israel, 1948-1967, Pages 44, 45)
    • Benny Morris notes on page 85 that the Arab ranks included "some volunteers from Yugoslavia and Germany." The Yugoslavs were drawn from both pro-Axis fascist groups and Bosnian Muslims. The Germans were composed of Nazi intelligence, Wehrmacht and SS officers. (1948, Page 85)
    • With respect to Morris, I utilized that source to specify the composition of ex-Nazis and units they were drawn from and not the quantity. Asad has misleadingly drawn your attention to the wrong page. I used page 85 and my edit (which identifies the makeup of involved German units) precisely corresponds to that page. I also utilized Zeev Schiff as a source as well and I can scan and email you the page if you don’t have access to the book. Asad, in mendacious fashion leaves out the fact that I used Schiff as a source. I could have also used Stein but believed that Morris and Schiff were sufficient.
    • In sum the edits were well-sourced from reliable verifiable sources, the edits were discussed (in fact, I was first to open a discussion on the matter), A compromise was within reach, there was no violation of 1r, and I offered to work collaboratively as evidenced by the diffs. Moreover, if any admin wishes to have a scanned copy of the sources, I would me more than happy to comply--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 23:40, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
        • I absolutely noted Yugoslavs and the noted sources don't mention American participation under disposition of Arab forces. Foreign volunteers for the Israeli side have already been noted under Mahal. I don't understand. I did everything by the letter and spirit of the book. I made edits that were reliable and verifiable. I did not violate 1r. I was the first to open a discussion at not just the discussion page but at the talk pages of involved editors. As noted above, I indicated a strong willingness to collaborate and compromise and was making headway in that regard and now somehow, this becomes a referendum on me? I've done a helluva lot of good for the space improving the Yom Kippur war article, the War of Attrition, creating a half-dozen articles on military battles. I have provided you with the sources. I scanned and emailed them to you and you can share with any admin you'd like. I'm going well above and beyond what is required and acted in strict accordance (by letter and spirit) with the rules. What more do you want? What annoys me the most is that Asad brought this AE after I left the following comment on the discussion page; A discussion on the matter was held on our (GabrielF & JJG) respective talk pages and agreement as to the precise text concerning German and Yugoslav volunteers seems within reach. I'll formulate something over the weekend It appears that he brought this AE simply to preempt the possibility that the article would include compromise language that he would object to.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 00:42, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
      • Looking at the matter in hindsight, I believe that the addition of the flag icon without a contemporaneous comment at the discussion page was wrong. I tried to rectify the problem by attempting to formulate modified text that would exclude the flag icon as well as other modifications. Regardless, I thought that since other scholarly texts (Schiff, Herzog, Stein and Morris) included the facts that I noted, it would be prudent to do so here. This is especially so since the Israeli belligerent column includes foreign volunteers. In any event, I recognize that the manner in which I added the info was incorrect and offer apologies for the stir.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 03:07, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
        • Ex-Nazis is precisely the term that Zeev Schiff uses and I will email the source to you if you provide me with an email address. It is not tendentious if that's the term the source employs. If you don't want to provide me with your email, then have HJMitchell forward it to you because I already gave it to him. I also added Yugoslavs. Some 500, composed of Bosnian Muslims and former pro-Axis militia, volunteered. Is that tendentious as well? I employed precisely the terms used by the source.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 21:18, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
        • Zeev Schiff: "Other Volunteers came from among Yugoslavian Moslems, deserters from the British Army and ex-Nazis."
        • Leslie Stein: "The Jews were not alone in mobilizing foreign volunteers. Some five-hundred Yugoslavs plus a number of Germans, Poles and over 50 Britons fought on the Palestinian behalf."
        • Chaim Herzog also notes that the Arab side employed Germans, Yugoslavs, British deserters and Poles to drive vehicles loaded with bombs into Jewish populated areas. (page 25)
        • Morris notes on page 85 that the Germans were drawn from ex-intel, Wehrmacht and SS officers and the Yugoslavs were drawn from Bosnian Muslim ranks and former pro-Axis militia. I used Morris only to note the composition of Germans and Yugoslavs.
        • Schiff was used to note that volunteers came from the ranks of ex-Nazis and Yugoslavs. Morris was used to note their specific composition, and sub-types. I noted Stein and Herzog at the discussion page. If other notable scholarly texts include these facts, should this content not be added to Misplaced Pages?--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 03:44, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
    As I noted, use of the icon without contemporaneous comment of the matter on the discussion page was not the correct way to go about things. The information was accurate, though admittedly I could have gone about it differently and I noted this on the discussion page even before the instant action was initiated. In fact, I was in the midst of a discussion on the matter and was making progress and I was going to offer revised text, absent the icon as evidenced by the above-noted diffs.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 03:51, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

    Comments by others about the request concerning Jiujitsuguy

    Comment by ElComandanteChe

    I don't actually see any sense in this complaint. It's quite clear that Asad dislikes JJG, and that JJG has certain political views, but none of these is sanctionable. The first diff is month old. The rest is a content dispute, discussed right now on the relevant talk page. May be there are signs of slow edit-warring here, but JJG is the one who started the discussion on the talk page, and simultaneously worked in a collaborative manner to build a consensus version (here and here), while his opponents just kept pushing the revert button. The presented evidence is too weak to draw the sound analysis next to it. -- ElComandanteChe 00:05, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

    Comment by ZScarpia

    I'd say that the List of Belligerents quite clearly got out of hand. What readers would expect to see is a list of the major participants, which on the Arab side should probably be a list of Arab states (I doubt that Pakistan should be listed as a belligerent) and perhaps the Arab Liberation Army. I doubt that political parties should be listed as belligerents, or the 'foreign volunteers' listed on the Israeli side, who didn't serve in their own separate units. Better judgement would have precluded translating a reference to handfuls of Yugoslavs and Germans fighting on the Arab side into extending the belligerent list, particularly into making the leap of labelling Morris's ex-members of Nazi intelligence (presumably the Gestapo), the Wehrmacht and the SS as Nazis, when that isn't what Morris says, and of including the flag of Nazi Germany.     ←   ZScarpia   01:59, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

    I missed the facts that Jiujitsuguy gave Schiff, who explicitly uses the term ex-Nazis, as a reference in addition to Morris and that, in a passage other than the one quoted, Morris does himself use that term, so I was incorrect to state that Jiujitsuguy misrepresented Morris. My apologies to everyone.     ←   ZScarpia   13:57, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

    No problem Z and thank you for your honesty. Apology whole-heartedly accepted without reservation.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 14:03, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
    Thanks.     ←   ZScarpia   14:59, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

    @No More Mr Nice Guy, 07:40, 21 January 2012: Ohiostandard isn't questioning whether sources are reliable, but whether they're being used in a non-neutral way.     ←   ZScarpia   13:18, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

    Comment by The Devil's Advocate

    Honestly, I had been thinking about bringing this to AE myself. One other article where JJG has recently been creating problems is the 1948 Palestinian exodus article. Diffs of his edits there:

    The wording about "if anyone was seeking the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, it was the Arabs" was inserted into the lede of the article. His changes in the third diff with regards to scholarship are clearly tendentious, and his choice of sources leaves a lot to be desired. JJG's edits there seem to be trying to lay accusations of ethnic cleansing entirely on Pappe and by inserting material from numerous negative sources about Pappe, at times even presenting their remarks in the editorial voice as though they are facts, he is seeking to discredit the accusations themselves. JJG is cherry-picking sources and using them to push an extremely hostile POV, something he has done before. Back two months or so he was brought to AE for using travel guides to claim the Golan Heights were Israeli territory. This kind of behavior goes well beyond your typical content dispute.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 07:31, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

    @Netzer On the 1948 war article it was only after a second revert that JJG started a discussion on the talk page, making sure to revert my revert before he did. He has exhibited the same behavior on the Nakba article where he made sure to revert the revert before going to the talk page to explain why his blatant POV-pushing was in perfect conformity with policy, avoiding NPOV and focusing on WP:V naturally. That goes back to the Golan case where he engaged in the same kind of wikilawyering to avoid the fact that he was cherry-picking and misrepresenting sources in order to push his own agenda on the article. You may find that harsh, but I am just noting what is there for all to see.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 18:52, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

    Actually, looking at the Nakba article, JJG didn't even initiate discussion on his changes there. Roland initiated discussion after JJG objected to a different edit having been removed months before.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 19:02, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
    I have also opened a discussion on the Reliable Sources noticeboard regarding the reliability of the obscure source which Jjg has used as backing for his edits.Comments welcomed. RolandR (talk) 19:30, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

    @Shuki How about WP:SOAP, WP:NPOV, WP:DE, WP:POINT, and WP:GAME?--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:09, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

    @Netzer Just so we are clear, I waited three days (longer than I had to wait) after his first revert for anyone to start discussion or revert him before finally performing the second revert. In contrast, JJG's revert of my second revert came within ten minutes and only then did he start a section on the talk page. When he did that, I was getting ready to put up a much larger comment on the talk page on general issues I saw with the article of which I felt JJG's edit was simply a symptom. That I wanted to start a broader discussion about the article is why I didn't start up a discussion the first time he reverted my revert.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:47, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

    @WG Seriously, look at the diffs I provided in my comment above. This is not about flags or what's in the belligerents section. You are certainly familiar enough with the last report involving JJG to know that this is the case. You are using the designed-to-fail restriction imposed on Nableezy as a precedent for a restriction that a child would have little trouble obeying, while still allowing JJG to continue other disruptive behaviors.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 19:58, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

    Comment by MichaelNetzer

    There is no pre-requisite in WP policy to open a talk page discussion before an edit. It is only "required" when the edit is contested, which is what JJG did, in all the cases mentioned in this complaint. It's becoming increasingly difficult to work in this area as some editors are pulling no punches in turning Misplaced Pages into a one-sided referendum on the topic, and removing any edits that try to bring POV balance to the articles. This contrived complaint is another such example. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 16:56, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

    @The Blade of the Northern Lights: "Ending up here" is no indication of being guilty as charged. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 01:02, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
    @HJ Mitchell: This complaint is about the charges it makes, not a referendum on how the encyclopedia "benefits" from an editor. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 01:02, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
    Your time on Misplaced Pages might be better spent advancing arguments for how these charges are invalid, or reading the policies you claim have not been violated, rather than taking potshots at comments by administrators who work hard to ensure that the right result comes out of these complaints. Have a little faith in us. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:26, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
    I have complete faith in admins here, HJ, and I try not to take potshots. From what I'm seeing, AE is being abused by editors who are more than happy to see a one-sided tone overpower articles in this space. They resist well sourced edits that seek balance with persistent contrived arguments that make collaboration very difficult. The talk page discussions in this case alone show this. It's natural for admins to have a difficult time seeing through it the way editors who suffer from it do. I think that's one of the reasons editors involved in this area are welcome to comment here. In light of the facts presented by JJG, should not Shuki's comment about this misleading complaint be taken into consideration? --MichaelNetzer (talk) 03:58, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
    Comment by Shuki

    This is a simple content dispute and one of the most frivolous AE's opened on ARBPIA since no guideline has been violated and the nominator has not even stated which guideline of ARBPIA has been violated. Editors, like Asad, (especially experienced ones who have already commented on AE before) who open misleading AE's should instead be sanctioned themselves. The Blade of the Northern Lights, welcome to ARBPIA, or other admin, can you please take the initiative and add User:Asad112 to Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#2012. Asad has already proven he knows about the page, so this is a mere formality. Thanks. --Shuki (talk) 20:38, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

    What disturbs me most about the admin's waving their swords below is A) ignoring WP:BOLD, and B) a clear attempt at preventing updating of WP based on what they think is right (a content issue). Adding the word 'Nazis' to the article is clearly sourced and valid (part of history, duh), and if having the Nazi flag is a bit provocative JJG already apologized, and giving JJG a topic ban because he added the flag is quite disproportionate. Me thinks with Nableezy sidelined, (often protected here) the admins see an opportunity to 'even up' the field. FWIW, with several regular I-P editors already banned or coming off bans over the past year, things have already calmed down dramatically. --Shuki (talk) 22:32, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
    I guess that OhioStandard did prove that this is a content issue after all. --Shuki (talk) 22:32, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
    Comment by BorisG

    Not sure what policy has been violated here. I do agree that Nazi flag is way OTT. I welcome JJG's self cooling proposition. I also agree with Z that the list got out of hand. At the same time, am I the only one who is sick and tired of tit for tat AE requests? This one in particular look rather meritless, and warrants wp:boomerang. - BorisG (talk) 14:12, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

    See my response to Shuki.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 22:40, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
    TDA, could you please comment in your own section? - BorisG (talk) 02:04, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
    The Ohio Standard has just revealed himself as an ardent propagandist for one side. I would have hoped that admins would give less weight to partisan and one sided comments from strongly partisan editors. I also think his unsourced characterisation of Benny Morris as ultra-extremist is a BLP violation and should be striken out. - BorisG (talk) 02:15, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
    Comment by One Night In Hackney

    MichaelNetzer's comment of "There is no pre-requisite in WP policy to open a talk page discussion before an edit. It is only "required" when the edit is contested, which is what JJG did, in all the cases mentioned in this complaint", Jiujitsuguy did in fact revert twice before opening a talk page discussion. Just thought I'd correct this misleading summary of events.

    The first revert at 04:58, 10 January 2012. Second revert at 22:26, 12 January 2012 . Opens talk page discussion at 22:36, 12 January 2012.

    So far from discussing the edit when it was first reverted, he reverted twice to add back the information and only started a discussion after making his second revert. 2 lines of K303 10:25, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

    JJG's edit was reverted twice by the same editor without that editor opening the talk page discussion. JJG opened the discussion 10 minutes after his second revert. Sorry if I was misleading but it seems JJG was alright on that issue in light of the circumstance. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 22:26, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
    Comment by Zero0000

    Addition of the Nazi flag to the belligerent list was a very obvious and blatant example of POV-pushing, not justified by any policy. It isn't justified by sources either, since the sources only indicate the past background of these (very few) people and do not indicate that they were representing any government, party, or other entity that the Nazi flag is a reasonable logo for. A vastly better case could be made for adding a communist flag to the Israeli column, but of course that would be the opposite POV-pushing. Israel officially recognises 42 nationalities of foreigners who fought on their side. Zero 01:00, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

    Comment by Malik Shabazz

    Maybe it's just me, but the more people come here to say that adding a swastika to an article was "just a content dispute", the less I believe them. — Malik Shabazz /Stalk 02:20, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

    Comment by Ohiostandard

    ( Please note later timestamp of this "eleventh-hour" addition as compared to timestamps of previously-posted admin comments. Thanks. - Ohiostandard )

    Jiujitsuguy's application of the Nazi flag to our article was of course ridiculous and blatant. But to evaluate his other edits responsibly, one has to understand some details of the history and politics of the Middle East. Unfortunately these details are often difficult to follow for people who aren't already familiar with the region's complex history and the sources that write about it. So to try to address that dilemma I suggest we carefully examine just two of his other edits, both quite typical, and see what they tell us about his overall editing pattern:

    Analysis posted in collapsed form, since it's necessarily longer than is usual here. - Ohiostandard

    It may help orient the reader if I say here that Jiujitsuguy's two edits appear to be motivated by his vehement objection to the phrase "ethnic cleansing" to characterize the effect of Israel's actions in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War during which more than 700,000 Palestinians lost their homes and land.

    Since one admin has mentioned below that he's not familiar with JJG's participation history, I believe it's also a fair and appropriate orientation note to disclose that he edits from the perspective of a radical Zionist: When he was brought here a month or two ago, for example, he had used Popular Mechanics magazine as an authority on geopolitics to try to make Misplaced Pages's voice champion his ultra-extremist view that the land Israel took from Syria during the 1948 war, and still continues to occupy, is actually in Israel, is actually "an integral part of Israel", as he puts it.

    This is a position that couldn't be more emphatically rejected by the entire international community; it's so extreme that even the Israeli government itself does not assert it. Finally, I doubt he'll deny that he's previously written on very prominent Zionist political sites to recruit fellow extremists to begin editing Misplaced Pages in accordance with Israel's nationally-mandated hasbarah ("propaganda" or "explanation") effort.

    1st of two consecutive edits

    Edit made by Jiujitsuguy at 17:34, 12 January 2012 UTC

    Here Jiujitsuguy deleted the following sentence and completely removed its two supporting refs from our article:

    The expulsion of the Palestinians has since been widely described as having involved ethnic cleansing, although not all historians accept that characterization.

    1. Ian Black, Memories and maps keep alive Palestinian hopes of return. ( The Guardian, 26 November 2010 ).
    2. Review of Efraim Karsh's book, Palestine Betrayed. ( Scoop News, 29 August 2010)

    To justify the deletion, he wrote in his edit summary,

    "Exceptional claim of 'widely described' requires exceptional source. Not book review critic. Moreover, source is already twice noted & included in lead & that's overkill."

    There are so many things wrong with this edit that it's hard to know what to focus on:

    • Most innocuously, his deletion of the "IANBLACK" named ref created a cite error in the article's footnotes.
    • His edit summary statement "source is already twice noted" is misleading. If you look at the article in its then-current state, you'll find that Black's piece in Great Britain's prestigious Guardian newspaper is referenced one other time, exactly, and then only in an indirect way.
    • The claim that he's responding to "overkill", to over-reliance on the Ian Black ref he deleted, just isn't credible when one considers that the article had 43 cites to works by journalist and Black co-author Benny Morris, and that in his next edit, JJG added a 44th ref to Morris.
    • The statement saying the depopulation had been "widely described" as ethnic cleansing does not come from a "book review critic". If he'd examined the refs he deleted before doing so, he'd have seen that the phrase "widely described" is sourced not to the book review, but to Ian Black's statement that "Abu Sitta is a leading expert on the nakbah and what is nowadays widely described as the 'ethnic cleansing' it involved." (emphasis added)
    • Ian Black is, indeed, an "exceptional source" for this purpose. He's the Guardian newspaper's Middle East Editor, he's a 2010 recipient of an international journalism award, and he's often interviewed as a mideast expert by other news organizations. Just yesterday, for example, the BBC World Service broadcast an interview with him that I heard via (US) National Public Radio about his in-country experiences in Syria regarding the populist uprising there.

    2nd of two consecutive edits

    Edit made by Jiujitsuguy at 17:37, 12 January 2012 UTC

    Here Jiujitsuguy replaces the content he just deleted with an attack on author Ilan Pappe's book, The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, that attack coming via an Israeli political advocacy website from a man the Claremont Institute rightly calls "Israel's most contentious historian", Benny Morris.

    What's really strange about JJG's replacement text is not that he relied exclusively on partisan Zionist authors to try to make his point. But what is odd is that he cites Benny Morris in an attempt to discredit the characterization of the expulsion of the Palestinians in 1948 as ethnic cleansing. Morris is completely comfortable with that term; he even champions the phrase and the principle it describes, and someone who's as intimately familiar with mideast politics and sources as Jiujitsuguy is surely knows this.

    For example, consider these exchanges, excerpted from a 2004 interview with Benny Morris which first appeared in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, and which is cited via the Logos Journal in the article JJG was editing:

    Interviewer: So when the commanders of Operation Dani are standing there and observing the long and terrible column of the 50,000 people expelled from Lod walking eastward, you stand there with them? You justify them?

    Benny Morris: I definitely understand them. I understand their motives. I don’t think they felt any pangs of conscience, and in their place I wouldn’t have felt pangs of conscience. Without that act, they would not have won the war and the state would not have come into being.

    Interviewer: You do not condemn them morally?

    Benny Morris: No.

    Interviewer: They perpetrated ethnic cleansing.

    Benny Morris: There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide—the annihilation of your people—I prefer ethnic cleansing.

    Interviewer: And that was the situation in 1948?

    Benny Morris: That was the situation...

    Interviewer: The term “to cleanse” is terrible.

    Benny Morris: I know it doesn’t sound nice but that’s the term they used at the time. I adopted it from all the 1948 documents in which I am immersed.

    ( emphasis added in three quotations above )

    < snip > ...

    Interviewer: Are you saying that Ben-Gurion was personally responsible for a deliberate and systematic policy of mass expulsion?

    Benny Morris: From April 1948, Ben-Gurion is projecting a message of transfer . There is no explicit order of his in writing, there is no orderly comprehensive policy, but there is an atmosphere of transfer. The transfer idea is in the air. The entire leadership understands that this is the idea...

    In passing I'll also observe that in the same interview Benny Morris makes many comments that unquestionably show him as ultra-extreme in his views. For example, he characterizes the entirety of Palestinian society as a serial killer and says they should be treated as such, put in a kind of cage, at least, unless they're executed instead. He likewise remarks, "The Arab world as it is today is barbarian." It's simply indisputable that he's not a man to go to for a balanced opinion on anything to do with Israel or Middle East politics at all. I'm sure our Jewish friends here would say the same of any author who had expressed similar views about Israeli society.

    But my main point in including the interview excerpt above is to show that it's simply misleading to try to use Benny Morris to argue against the phrase "ethnic cleansing" as a characterization of the events of 1948. Morris has since tried to make a case that it wasn't deliberate, but he nevertheless embraces the phrase "ethnic cleansing" for just that application.

    Relatedly, if Jiujitsuguy had truly been interested in presenting a neutral point of view concerning Ilan Pappe's book, The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, rather than trying merely to discredit it, he could easily have found and used the review of the book by Publisher's Weekly, which describes it in part as follows:

    Framing his argument with accepted international and U.N. definitions of ethnic cleansing, Pappe follows with an excruciatingly detailed account of Israeli military involvement in the demolition and depopulation of hundreds of villages, and the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Arab inhabitants. An accessible, learned resource, this volume provides important insights into the historical antecedents of today's conflict, but its conclusions will not be easy for everyone to stomach...

    Also, along with many others who've expressed similar concerns on the article's talk page (link/permalink) and at RSN (link/permalink), I find it troubling that Jiujitsuguy replaced so widely respected a source as the Guardian's Ian Black with so heavy a reliance on economics professor Leslie Stein's book, The Making of Modern Israel, when Stein is very much a partisan apologist for Israel, according to third-party review quotations at RSN. I likewise find it a bit troubling that contrary to his week-ago promise (apparently rescinded?) on the article's talk page, Jiujitsuguy appears not to have forwarded any page scan from this book to those he promised it too, a book that none of have so far been able to access. I'd be less concerned about that if he had responded to requests for verbatim quotations that support his edit that he bases on Leslie Stein's Making of Modern Israel.

    In conclusion, in these edits Jiujitsuguy deleted neutral, eminently-respected sources, using a verhy misleading edit summary to do so, and replaced them with with extremist sources, including heavy reliance on a book that is much less accessible and that he has so far refused to quote from directly to try to support his edit. In addition, he cited one extremely partisan author, Benny Morris, as if Morris objected to the description of the events of 1948 as "ethnic cleansing", which he most emphatically does not.

    Finally, think about Jiujitsuguy's user name, for a moment. He doesn't edit articles on Asian martial arts, that I'm aware of, so why that name? If you'll "sound it out" slowly, you'll probably notice that the name can be interpreted as a double-entendre declaring its owner as a champion on behalf of Jewish ideology. Whether that play on words was intentional or not, the name does well-represent his combative editing behavior here.

    It's my strong opinion that Jiujitsuguy's edits are first and foremost those of a hasbarah warrior, a zealous propagandist without intrinsic allegiance to Misplaced Pages and its principles except to the extent they can be used to disseminate his preferred message. The entirety of his editing here, never mind his explicit off-site canvassing for new partisans for just that purpose, demonstrates such contempt for the goals of the encyclopedia as I've rarely seen equaled among established editors.  – OhioStandard (talk) 21:08, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

    In summary, its my belief that a careful analysis of these of Jiujitsuguy's edits, quite typical for him, of the other incidents in this report, and of his very long history of using the encyclopedia to promote ultra-extremist views and of encouraging others to do so, make him entirely unsuitable as an editor in any article remotely connected to this difficult topic area. He's shown time and time and time again that he simply will always give his POV goals precedence over every other possible consideration.  – OhioStandard (talk) 21:08, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

    As the preceding section-title makes clear, this section of the page is for my own comments; it's not an invitation to open a debate here. Your own comments belong in their own separate and dedicated section. Similarly, please refrain from posting remarks in the "Results" section of this page if you're not an administrator. Thank you.  – OhioStandard (talk) 21:08, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

    What pisses me off most (not just here but in general) are the attempts to get into one's head and to interpret his behavior and his language based on own views. This is a faulty way of thinking which produces zero valuable information. Always assume people mean what they say. Always look into what people do, not why they do it. JJG shall be judged according to his deeds, not his supposed motives. Morris credibility shall be judged according to his weight in academic word as historian, not moral assessment of his interviews. -- ElComandanteChe 22:48, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
    Apparently, OhioStandard would agree if we were discussing someone from his "side of the the political gulf in Mideast politics". No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:12, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

    Comment by No More Mr Nice Guy

    Since apparently the admins are taking OhioStandard's analysis seriously, I'd like to point out some inaccuracies (I'm AGFing when calling them that).

    • 1st edit:
    • I don't know what he meant by "journalist and Black co-author Benny Morris", but Morris is a serious professor of history and a leading expert in the field, which I doubt anyone who is familiar with scholarship on the IP conflict doesn't consider a reliable source. Black is a journalist, and this piece is a book review. I think any serious wikipedian would expect an article like this to contain many more references to scholarly works than to book reviews, even if they are from "Great Britain's prestigious Guardian newspaper".
    Taking the very extreme step of typing both names into Google yields this from Benny Morris' wikipedia page: 'When Conrad Black bought the Post in 1990, Morris was one of the Israeli left-wing journalists. continued to write as a freelance, producing Israel's Secret Wars, co-written with Ian Black of The Guardian'. BothHandsBlack (talk) 09:57, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
    If you did type both names into google you know that professor Morris is one of the leading scholars in the field of history of the IP conflict. I highly doubt anyone who has more than a passing interest in the history of the conflict doesn't know that. Good on you for using wikipedia as a source though. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:39, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
    You miss the point. You wrote 'I don't know what he meant by "journalist and Black co-author Benny Morris". I simply indicated that it was a trivial task to discover a) that Morris had a career in journalism, and b) that he co-authored a book with Black. The fact that he is also a Professor is neither here nor there with regard to understanding the sentence you indicated. There is no need to take Misplaced Pages's word for the sentence I quoted - simply follow the sources in the article for his work as a journalist and check Amazon if you don't believe he co-authored the book with Black.BothHandsBlack (talk) 18:29, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
    It's you who's missing the point. He was a journalist 20 years ago. Now he's a professional historian, and has been for quite a while. Calling him a journalist is just another attempt to make it seem he's not a high quality reliable source, when he very obviously is. He's one of the world's most prominent experts in his field which happens to include the subject of the article in question. It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that he's referenced extensively, as opposed to referencing what an actual journalist wrote in a book review, for example. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:56, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
    I'm not disputing that he is a reliable source, a Professor, and a legitimate person to cite extensively. But given that you claimed not to know what the sentence in question meant, I thought I would enlighten you. Please stop making a mountain out of a molehill.BothHandsBlack (talk) 21:23, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
    • The statement is from a book review written by a journalist. Not exactly the highest quality RS. Better sourcing was requested multiple times on the talk page but none was forthcoming. You'd think that if something was "widely considered", some scholars would note that. This is classic REDFLAG.
    • That Black was interviewed on the BBC about Syria has what relationship to a book review he wrote about something other than Syria?
    • 2nd edit:
    • OS notes that the Clairmont Institute calls Morris "Israel's most contentious historian" (implying that he is not reliable). What makes Morris contentious (particularly to a conservative think tank) is that he is one of the leading New Historians who question Israel's traditional historical narrative. Again, this is common knowledge to anyone who is familiar with the scholarship.
    • OS then attempts to impinge on Morris' scholarship based on a newspaper interview and OS's opinion thereof. I challenge him to take Morris to RS/N and see if anyone, including pro-P editors, think he is not a high quality RS.
    • OS appears to be saying Leslie Stein is not a reliable source and is a "partisan apologist for Israel", linking to the RS/N discussion which doesn't seem to support his conclusion that Stein is not RS.
    • OS continues by trying to pass a positive review of Pappe's book as "neutral" (I doubt that's what NPOV is about).
    • But the piece de resistance is OS's opinion one what JJG's username sounds like when you "sound it out slowly", and what that implies. Someone has Jews on the brain apparently. Here's an alternative explanation - JJG likes Jiujitsu but doesn't edit articles on martial arts. Occam's razor says...?

    In summary, OS is apparently not well versed in who the leading scholars of the history of the IP conflict are. He obviously has a very partisan outlook regarding which sources should be considered reliable, based on his political opinion (which he is not shy about, as can be seen by the diff I posted in his section above). This colors his "analysis" throughout. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 07:40, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

    Comment by Brewcrewer

    Sanctioning JGG for this complaint will create a disturbing precedent. This is as close as possible to a simple content dispute. The edit was clearly silly, but the usual consensus of editors that did not make that one judgement mistake ruled the day. No harm resulted, and that's exactly the way things are supposed to play out where volunteer editors are using their editorial judgement. A sanction here will be a sanction for poor judgement, something AE was clearly never intended for, and will cause a chilling effect here on Misplaced Pages. Editors will be afraid to make reliably sourced albeit controversial edits lest they be dragged to AE on the grounds that the edit was not sound. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 02:06, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

    Result concerning Jiujitsuguy

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
    • I'm not too familiar with the history of Jiujitsuguy, so I will have to look into that more, but the above doesn't look too good. Given the history of sanctions, I would think that to include material like that he would want to bring it up on the talkpage first. Obviously awaiting Jiujitsuguy's response before trying to pin down how long any sort of sanction would be. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:44, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
      @MichaelNetzer I'm fully aware that discussion is only required when an edit is contested; however, given his history of sanctions I would expect him to be more circumspect, especially given the potentially inflammatory nature of his addition. I'm finding it hard to believe that he wouldn't have expected someone to contest it, and the best thing to do when making a potentially controversial edit after having been sanctioned for making similar edits would be to discuss it first. That way, he probably could have avoided ending up here. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:27, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
    • I'd like to hear from JJG before anything is decided, but the above amply demonstrates the kind of battleground mentality the topic area would be better off without. The edit-warring and selective quoting of sources to effectively skew the facts, taken together with the long history of sanctions and block of which JJG has been the subject would suggest a long topic ban is in order. It seems little has changed of JJG's attitude over the past few years, except that he has learned to play the game well enough to avoid being sanctioned for any one edit. His attitude is not completely out of the ordinary, but many of those with similar attitudes are currently blocked or topic-banned. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:48, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
      • @JJG: The thrust of the complaint is not the verifiability of the claim that ex-Nazis were involved, but the neutrality of it when you didn't think to mention the British, American, or Yugoslav participants that were referenced on the very same page. But you're a clever guy, you knew that. You've also failed to address the combative reverting and general battleground mentality I raised concerns about. So let me ask you a direct question: how does the Israel-Palestine topic area benefit from your presence? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:01, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
          • OK, I missed that you noted the Yugoslavs as well, my apologies. I still think your conduct in reverting leaves a lot to be desired—re-adding content you know is controversial without first gaining consensus is never a good idea, regardless of whether it violates a technical restriction on number of reverts. I also think you're smart enough to know that adding the Nazi flag to such an article is likely to be seen as provocative.

            I think you would benefit from voluntarily taking a break from the topic area for a few weeks, and I'm still thinking of proposing that you should be obliged to explain your reasons for any revert both in an edit summary and on the talk page, but hat could take the form of a voluntary agreement rather than a formal sanction. Other than that, I would suggest that you try very hard to act collegialy and avoid being seen to act combatively, because the more combative you're seen as being, the more likely you are to find yourself in the dock here. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:22, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

    • The Rockefeller edit is stale and I'm not even sure why it was even mentioned in this context. I concur with ZScarpia's corrected comment, to me this flag stuff is nonsense and JJG knows it and knows it's the kind of thing he needs to stay away from. I concur with HJM's original comment, there is little else we can do here but long term or indefinite TBAN. With regard to asad, I don't agree with his synthesis of what happened in JJG's last case here or making reference to me without at least letting me know about it. --WGFinley (talk) 18:03, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
      • There are times when I would love to just gather up the regulars here and ban them from the I/P topic area. I'm not convinced that JJG should escape this thread without sanction, but topic bans are blunt instruments. Perhaps a more refined sanction, like a 0RR, a requirement to discuss all reverts or something else that might address the problems complained about here. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:25, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
    • The Ex-Nazi edit is plainly tendentious. (And yes, tendentious editing is a conduct issue that is within the jurisdiction of AE.) I think a topic ban is appropriate. @HJ: Sometimes blunter is better. Just look at the track record of the relatively "refined" community sanctions at issue in the Betacommand case. Besides, how do you craft a sanction that addresses tendentious editing without excluding the editor from the topic area outright anyway? T. Canens (talk) 15:55, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

    Refactor For Consensus

    It seems to me JJG missed the initial point about the use of the Nazi flag, seems to be clear to him now. I want to AGF he is being honest about that but his history is less than clean from the ban. He appears to have reliable sources to back up his position but went about it in a completely wrong way. I would suggest some leeway was given in a similar circumstance about inserting "Palestinian" in various articles and categories, perhaps a similar remedy could be crafted here banning the editing of belligerents and use of flags for 6 months with the understanding the next infraction will be a long term TBAN. --WGFinley (talk) 18:49, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

    I'd be fine with that. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:26, 20 January 2012 (UTC) In light of what OhioStandard points out above, I see something a lot more problematic at work here. Getting overly focused on the Nazi flag issue will prevent us from seeing the forest for the trees. I think a topic ban of some long length would be called for at this point, as I can clearly see from OhioStandard's comments above that there's a level of tendentiousness I missed before. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:45, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
    • Israel–Palestine is one of those topic areas that provokes extremely strong feelings in a lot of people. Those strong feelings have a tendency to blind each party to the potential that the other may be acting in good faith, and they can drive editors to do things that, outside of such areas, they would never normally contemplate. Thus, I think some editors are just not suited to edit in areas where they have such strong feelings. In Israel–Palestine, there are several (some of whom are currently on long-term topic bans), and I think JJG is perhaps one of them. As much I dislike the lack of sophistication in a blanket topic ban, I'm recommending a topic ban of no fixed duration, but to be reviewed after six months. Alternatively, if JJG were willing to step away voluntarily for six months, I would be willing to consider it a gentlemen's agreement, rather than a formal sanction. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 04:45, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

    This case has gone on long enough, there seems to be a consensus of opinion that a long-term TBAN is in order and I was not totally adverse to that myself. The time has come, indefinite TBAN which can be reconsidered at a later date after harmonious editing elsewhere in the project. --WGFinley (talk) 05:38, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

    Yfever

    Yfever (talk · contribs) warned. of R-I General Sanctions. --WGFinley (talk) 18:38, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

    Request concerning Yfever

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Professor marginalia (talk) 05:54, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Yfever (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced

    Discretionary sanctions warning for Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence

    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. Activity SPA
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    Editor was advised in Dec by Aprock who is not an admin. The involved articles continue to be plagued by gaming and proxy editing on behalf of topic banned editors following the arbitration decision, and just one of the games has been to cry foul with the "nobody warned me first" defense. Besides the SPA pattern evident in the edit history, I have other reasons for being very concerned this is another new proxy account recruited to take over where others left off. I'm asking that an official notification be issued by an admin so there is no unresolved ambiguity over procedural enforcement.

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    User talk:Yfever#Arbitration enforcement


    Discussion concerning Yfever

    Re T.C.: Race and intelligence, which is an area that OBVIOUSLY needs more agenda driven single purpose editors. I wonder which banned editor influenced this individual to come and refight old battles. Hipocrite (talk) 13:05, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

    Statement by Yfever

    Comments by others about the request concerning Yfever

    WP:ARBR&I is the applicable case, I believe. I have no prior involvement in any of this, for the record, just following the trail from DRV. Tarc (talk) 15:16, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

    Here is a historic link to the checkuser case where some of the problems with this user's edits are mentioned. Mathsci (talk) 02:53, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

    @WGFinley, the remedy proposed is not a sanction, but rather to officially notify the user of WP:ARBR&I. aprock (talk) 05:53, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

    Result concerning Yfever

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    Unomi

    Unomi blocked for 12 hours by Stifle for uncivil language. henrik•talk 17:58, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

    Request concerning Unomi

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    —Biosketch (talk) 10:16, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Unomi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    WP:ARBPIA#Editors_reminded
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 16 January 2012 – personal attack against me, if not against Zionist people collectively: "...they would stoop that low to get rid of you."
    2. 17 January 2012 – personal attack against me, if not against Zionist people collectively: "...people who have the gift of self-deception to the degree that we often come across with the Pro-Zionist Brigade would be able to dream up this SP accusation certainly better than them spending their time on obfuscating our articles."
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Warned on 17 August 2010 by Wgfinley (talk · contribs)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    If necessary, I can link to previous cases where incivility on the part of editors in the I/P topic area was grounds for sanctions. In this case, the nature of the attack clearly involves animosity toward Zionism and Zionist people and associating me personally with stereotypes of Zionists as degenerate, cunning and corrupt. The remarks were directed at me in the context of an SPI currently in progress at WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Unomi, but that makes them no less inappropriate.—Biosketch (talk) 10:16, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

    Unomi, you're free to believe in your heart that Zionists are degenerate, cunning and corrupt. I don't doubt there are others editing in the I/P topic area who hold similar convictions, but that's not anyone's business as long as they keep their prejudices private. When you apply those stereotypes to another Misplaced Pages contributor, as you did a third time here, it's not only insulting toward that contributor himself but to the larger collective with which you've associated him. It should be very simple: restrict your opinions and comments to edits, not to editors and not to large collectives of people when your criticism is irrelevant to the content you're objecting to. You were asked to withdraw your second comment. You're now making things worse by using a sarcastic tone that serves no other function than to provoke hostility and make an already foul situation worse.—Biosketch (talk) 10:44, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
    User:Stifle, thanks for your input. Do you mean to tell me that statements like You should be flattered the homosexuals would stoop that low to get rid of you or people who have the gift of self-deception to the degree that we often come across with the Pro-Homosexual Brigade would be dismissed as "not nice" and that be the end of it? The ARBPIA sanctions were crafted with a mind to keep the I/P topic area from deteriorating into a swamp of editors continually getting into conflict with each other to the point where they can no longer function collaboratively as a community. This is certainly the spirit of WP:ARBPIA#Editors_reminded. Frankly, I don't see how you can expect me to continue collaborating in an environment where the kind of prejudice invoked here is allowed to continue with no response.—Biosketch (talk) 11:01, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

    User:BothHandsBlack, as your account is only about 20 days old and there's currently an SPI pending to determine if you're Unomi's sock or possibly someone else's, I'll permit myself to regard your comment here with a degree of suspicion comparable to how input from SPAs is judged in other non-mainspace venues. But regardless, Unomi's comments were unequivocally personal in nature: they targeted editors and people, not political positions.—Biosketch (talk) 11:45, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

    User:BothHandsBlack, stooping, having a gift for self-deception, etc. aren't political positions. They don't have anything to do with politics. They have to do with applying a prejudice to an editor and a group of people. If Unomi had expressed his views on Zionism or some other inanimate entity, your observation might be valid. But Unomi specifically referenced people, and that makes the nature of his attacks personal. But thank you for allowing me to clarify the crucial distinction.—Biosketch (talk) 12:05, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
    User:BothHandsBlack, you still haven't understood that the problem with Unomi's comments was that he attributed to an editor and to a group of people a set of negative stereotypes in a manner that had nothing to do with the actual content being debated. He included Zionists in his attack because he apparently endorses the anti-Zionist/antisemitic stereotypes he invoked of moral degeneracy, cunning and human rot; but he went further and applied those stereotypes to me on account of the SPI I filed against him and yourself. That's where he crossed the line.—Biosketch (talk) 12:27, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
    User:BothHandsBlack, antisemitism only factors in because the stereotypes Unomi invoked have historically been applied both to Jews and to Zionists but not to other communities. If someone were to attribute to Republican voters an innate propensity for being degenerate, self-deceptive and corrupt, it would then become a collective stereotype applied to a group of people on account of their shared identity. It wouldn't be racism, just as homophobia isn't racism in the strict sense of the word, but it would be a form of bigotry. Anti-Zionism isn't bigotry either, so long as whatever criticism expressed is confined to ideology. When attacks are made against Zionists collectively, however, and when those attacks have the familiar ring of stereotypes historically associated with Jewish people, then they too are a form of bigotry. I'm not calling Unomi a bigot – I wouldn't be allowed to even if I thought the term were apt. But yes, the stereotypes he invoked and directed at me in the context of the SPI I filed against him and you constitute bigotry because they associate me with a set of negative stereotypes historically applied to Jews and Zionists.—Biosketch (talk) 12:55, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Notified.—Biosketch (talk) 10:18, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

    Discussion concerning Unomi

    Statement by Unomi

    Not really sure what she is tripping over, probably didn't get good Christmas presents. un☯mi 10:20, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

    Here is a hint, if you don't want to be accused of acting irrationally then try to not come across as bat-shit insane. un☯mi 10:27, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

    Stifle, apart from the circumstance of being lured into arguing with an idiot, I can't really. I felt provoked by what seemed to me a transparent attempt of Biosketch to have BHB ( and myself for that matter ) blocked on specious grounds. I find it upsetting when people engage in that kind of behavior, especially as it seems driven by a desire to promote an external agenda in a manner which runs counter to the goals of wikipedia. un☯mi 14:19, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

    • Just to be clear, are you supporting blocking me for being uncivil towards a state? Or do you find the allegation that Biosketch is supporting a particular state uncivil? In reliable sources Israel is numbered among the failed states, see #53. That states engage in psychopathic behavior is not a controversial claim - should you want to read more about this you might want to refer to Ponerology.

    It is of course possible that I misconstrued the position of Biosketch, should she give indication that she does not support Israel in what is internationally recognized as occupation, and that the 700,000+ Israeli citizens living beyond the Green Line should rightfully vacate, then I would be happy to give my full and earnest apology for having misrepresented her views.

    In any case, in writing what I did I was acting on emotion - I found the SPI case deeply problematic, not in terms of direct consequence to me, but what it says of the tactics in play. Just the issue of bringing up smileys, yet being completely blind to the differences in presentation and application spoke to me of a personality that would see only what it wanted to see, or worse, try to present what they knew as being an argument against as an argument for.

    This kind of specious logic and fallacious reasoning runs rampant, not limited to I/P of course, but with I/P it is sickeningly blatant and recurring.

    If my sense of self-preservation was more developed I likely would not have lashed out, and I likely would be trying to project a level of repentance or confusion which I couldn't in good conscience say was earnest.

    I don't regret what I said, I find Biosketch's interpretation of what I really meant by it abhorrent, but not too surprising given the characteristics of the filters she seems to perceive the world through.

    My take on self-preservation disallows becoming what I abhore, and frankly I am increasingly unconvinced that this is an environment I wish to preserve myself in. I have nothing but love for the idealistic goals of Misplaced Pages, but the reality is less lovable. un☯mi 10:27, 19 January 2012 (UTC)


    I can't help but try to correct a woefully minuscule number of Biosketch's misapprehensions: First of all, not only is self-deception a common attribute among zealots of all stripes, it is ironically one that has seen scientific evidence in the context of Republicans: The Irony of Satire - Political Ideology and the Motivation to See What You Want to See in The Colbert Report is almost as entertaining a read as the coincidentally relevant | "Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments".

    Second of all, and do with this as you will, I am an aracialist, I don't prescribe to a world-view where "Semite" bears enough meaning to entertain antisemitism. The closest I can get is in the sense of black humor and how some don't even want to share antisemitism with other Semites, its only value to me is for depth sounding the sarchasm.

    Both of my parents were born soon after the war to mothers that were lucky to have survived it, my parents were not religious but the family that was were in uncharacteristic agreement that Zionism came before Hitler and that oaths were meant to be kept. My own take is that history is replete with examples of how weakness of mind can lead to strength of conviction in holding others to be subhuman - and how feeling wronged leads to doing wrong. Perhaps, we are all just playthings of happenstance and circumstance, products of cultural indoctrination and victim of defense mechanisms against our insecurities. Then again, perhaps we have a choice, should we will to exercise it. I could go on about how structural violence plays a part in how Israel now sees ~10% of their population and rising, living outside the Green Line, and the impact of what can reasonably be characterized as economic refugees on what is "politically viable", as well as on what self-interested actors could see as being rational. What lies down that road is worth avoiding. un☯mi 12:27, 19 January 2012 (UTC)


    Comments by others about the request concerning Unomi

    @Biosketch - Expressing disdain for someone in relation to their political position is, whilst unhelpful, materially different from expressing disdain towards someone as a member of a sexual or ethnic minority. BothHandsBlack (talk) 11:31, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

    You're free to regard my contribution however you like. It doesn't change the fact that your comparison of a mildly offensive comment made in relation to a political viewpoint to a comment made in relation to someone's sexuality is not apt. Disdain for someone's viewpoint or their intellectual abilities is not the same thing as disdain for a person based on their sexual (or ethnic) type and trying to conflate these two categories does not do justice to the problem you initially raised. BothHandsBlack (talk) 11:56, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
    He mentioned people, yes, but the group of people are classed according to the political views they hold. It would be appropriate to substitute 'Tories', 'Liberals', 'Republicans', 'Democrats', 'Pro-Lifers', 'Pro-Choicers' or any other political position. But it is not appropriate to substitute 'Homosexuals'. It is broadly acceptable in normal society to state 'I hate Liberals' despite this being directed at people. It is not acceptable to state 'I hate homosexuals'. So you shouldn't expect a comment in relation to people that hold a political position to be considered as having precisely the same force as a comment in relation to someone's sexuality and to be thought equally problematic. I'll leave it there because you will either get the point or you won't. I'm not sure a fourth repetition will throw any further light on the issue. BothHandsBlack (talk) 12:16, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
    I think you may be reading a bit too much into it. Whilst the comments are not particularly pleasant, they don't say anything at all that goes beyond what one might reasonably say of any political position that one dislikes and considers to be supported by people who are lacking in rationality (check the editorial pages of the US press (and to a lesser extent that of the UK broadsheets) and you'll regularly find politicians 'stooping' to do something or being described as self-deceptive). I don't really see where anti-semitism comes into this at all. BothHandsBlack (talk) 12:40, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

    Comment by ZScarpia

    Perhaps of relevance, the one case raised against Biosketch and the three raised by him or her at the Wikiquette Assistance noticeboard last year:

        ←   ZScarpia   14:40, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

    Biosketch, you say that Unomi has applied the stereotypical characteristics degeneracy, cunning, corruptness, self-deception and human rotteness to Zionists or pro-Zionists. Where did he do that, or are you interpreting rather freely. "I'm not calling Unomi a bigot." No? A remark which "specifically referenced people" is "personal" in nature. A rather shaky claim. "Homophobia isn't racism in the strict sense of the word." Perhaps you lost your way in many of your arguments.     ←   ZScarpia   01:38, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

    Comment by No More Mr Nice Guy

    Perhaps of relevance, civility is supposedly one of Misplaced Pages's WP:five pillars, and there's an arbcom remedy that addresses it. You couldn't really guess that when an editor feels comfortable calling another editor an "idiot" on an arbitration enforcement request specifically about their incivility, or a NUTJOB (caps in original) on the talk page of an admin who recently commented on said enforcement request.

    I wish someone could explain to me why civility just isn't taken seriously. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:22, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

    In my very limited experience, civility, like the assumption of good faith, appears to be taken seriously by editors only when it suits them. But then, I have been generally pretty unimpressed by how far the reality of wikipedia departs from its supposed ideals. Personally, I have a bit of sympathy with Unomi's view of Biosketch's general inability to follow rational lines of thought or to reason for himself in a correct way but I doubt that comments putting this position across in the words chosen by Unomi are very useful, despite the underlying thought seeming pretty accurate. It is actually quite hard to tell someone that they are being stupid in a civil way but an effort should still be made to avoid inflammatory incivility. On the other hand, aggressively supported irrationality can, itself, seem highly uncivil, as I have discovered myself in recent days (e.g. here ). I don't consider it civil to repeatedly call someone a liar unless one has very very solid grounds to do so, which inclines me to weigh up both Biosketch and Unomi in terms of pots and kettles. BothHandsBlack (talk) 17:43, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
    I was kinda hoping an admin, or at least someone who doesn't have an ongoing feud with Biosketch, could answer my question. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:25, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
    :-) Apologies - your question has been much on my mind the last few days. BothHandsBlack (talk) 18:28, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

    Result concerning Unomi

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    Sander Säde

    Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

    Request concerning Sander Säde

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Y u no be Russavia 11:15, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Sander Säde (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:DIGWUREN#Standard_discretionary_sanctions
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    • As a result of this I am banned from interacting with ANY member of the EEML, not just those who are banned from interacting with me.
    • I brought attention to the weird sanction placed on me yet not on other EEML members here. My concern back then, and still is today, is that editors can game this one-sided interaction ban as a battleground tool to sideline editors from articles and discussions. I can provide recent examples where this has occurred.
    • Carcharoth (talk · contribs) posts a response, which from that day forward I have used in my interactions on WP---comment on content, not on the editor.
    • User:Fuseau posts problems with an article here
    • I post some comments in relation to Fuseau's comments.
    • Sander Sade posts a comment requesting a scholarly source which states specific information.
    • I post such a source because I have the source and am familiar with the source and the subject. Nothing in that violates "comment on content, not on the editor".
    • I post information which is not directed at Sander Sade, but at readers in general, and anyone who has any clue on this area will see that it is making the point that think-tanks and organisations with an agenda (social, political, economic, etc), and even though they may well be widely cited, their agenda that they are driving should be noted (using the "absolute joke" examples I made mention of), and that actually scholarly analysis is freely available and should be more highly considered. This is clearly commenting on content.
    • Sander Sade posts a response to me, and finishes with "Also, Russavia, isn't your interaction ban still active?"
    • The desired effect is achieved by Sander Sade, and I have removed myself (without comment) from any further participation on this article talk page. This is even though my comments are focussed entirely on content and are clearly targetted at article improvement, and I make no comments on editors. This self-removal of myself from the article within my area of interest (foreign relation of Russia) is done to prevent an editor such as Sander Sade using this as a reason to report me to AE; this is something that does occur and is a problem. It is wrong that editors get to effectively "topic" or "article" ban myself through using an interaction ban as a weapon.
    • Sander Sade all but accuses me and another editor of sockpuppetry. This is a demonstration of bad faith against both me and Fuseau, and it is an accusation that is without basis nor evidence, and for which I have no right of reply except for this request. The accusation is also highly problematic because Fuseau is doing a great job providing counter-arguments to editors on the article talk page, and Sander Sade is clearly trying to bait Fuseau, whilst also attacking myself after I have been evicted from the article by Sander's Sade invocation of the interaction ban.
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Warned on 9 December 2007 by Thatcher131 (talk · contribs)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    I am requesting that Sander Sade be given an analogous interaction ban as has been placed on me at Misplaced Pages:ARBRB#Russavia_restricted. i.e.

    Sander Sade is prohibited from commenting on or unnecessarily interacting with Russavia, except in the case of necessary dispute resolution.

    Only then am I going to be able to return to the article talk page and continue to engage in content discussion.

    I am also posting this AE request to Carcharoth's talk page, because I would like specific input from Carcharoth on this suggestion of theirs, and whether my actions and Sander Sade's actions on the talk page are within the spirit of their suggestion. This is particularly important because the Arbcom themselves have stated many times in the past that interaction bans are never supposed to prevent creation of content, and creation of content requires discussion. It is impossible to engage in article creation/expansion/etc when editors are being sidelined by nefarious use of an interaction ban when that was never the intent of the ban in the first place.

    I am only presenting evidence relating to myself, other editors may have problematic edits from Sander Sade which need looking at too. I will also leave it up to admins to see if any further sanction may be required for what is clear battleground behaviour by Sander Sade. The issue of Eastern European topics being an editorial battleground is a long fraught problem.

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
    • Sander Sade informed
    • I have notified Fuseau of this discussion also as a courtesy


    Discussion concerning Sander Säde

    Statement by Sander Säde

    Sigh. How badly it is possible to misconstrue what happened?

    • "Also, Russavia, isn't your interaction ban still active?" was me asking in good faith if the interaction ban is still active or not - as otherwise we might have yet another enforcement request which ends with Russavia getting an addition to his/her extensive block log. I really would rather not have yet another such episode of wikidrama. I know there was an ArbCom case to remove the interaction bans, supported by all Russavia, Nug and Vecrumba, but as I usually don't follow ArbCom cases, I have no idea if the interaction bans were lifted or not.
    • "Sander Sade all but accuses me and another editor of sockpuppetry". Uh?! I think the diff shows rather clearly I am saying that I don't think Russavia and Fuseau are the same person - what I am saying is that I haven't seen a scholarly source presented by Fuseau. Having just re-read the whole section, I still cannot find a any scholarly sources whatsoever from Fuseau. Can you please provide the diff with the source, as I might have just missed it completely?

    I don't mind the interaction ban. I usually don't edit the same pages as Russavia, so it would have a very little effect. I was hoping to get help from Russavia with an article about a historian Anatoli Razumov, but perhaps there is someone else who could help?

    --Sander Säde 14:43, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

    @Fuseau: an article by Natalia Narochnitskaya on a random webpage as a scholarly source? I hope it is just a really tasteless joke. Can you at least show me how that article passed peer review and is published by a reputable scientific source? --Sander Säde 17:36, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

    Comments by others about the request concerning Sander Säde

    Comment by Vecrumba

    I strongly urge that interaction bans in the Baltic/EE/Soviet legacy space be lifted, as they have been interpreted consistently as meaning something other than (mutually) "editor A discussing editor B and not their edits" and other than "editor A contacting editor B on their talk page"—which is only what they should be. And even there, editor A should be able to address editor B with regard to the content of an edit at an article where both are active, and to revert or change each other's edits, as in any other content-based interaction.

    Either vacate all the bans or interpret interaction bans in a manner which promotes collegial and cooperative conduct between the parties involved. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 15:42, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

    Comment by Fuseau

    diff requested by Sander Säde. I hope he doesn't dispute that a degree of Doktor nauk shows the author to be a scholar.--Fuseau (talk) 17:08, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

    This is a content dispute. Many politicians have doctoral degrees, and politicians are by definition politically biased. --Nug (talk) 20:29, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
    Comment by Nug

    I see no issue with any of Sander Säde's talk page comments. I also note that Sander is not subject to any interaction ban, and there is no reason for one to be imposed as he does not have a history of submitting vexatious AE reports as a way of winning content disputes or perpetuating past conflicts. --Nug (talk) 19:47, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

    Comment by Greyhood

    In the discussion in question, Sander Säde has made this rather problematic comment. Supposedly it indicates that only fringe elements in Russian society ("Russian ultranationalists, skinheads and conspiracy theorists") would disagree with Freedom House (an organisation criticized by many countries and respectable persons, including Noam Chomsky), or that me or perhaps other participants of the discussion are representing or supporting the views of those fringe elements in Russian society. This is could be a violation of Misplaced Pages:DIGWUREN#Editors_warned. GreyHood 20:47, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

    Comment by Estlandia

    Right now I don't see a reason to admonish one side (Sander Säde). It is just a discussion regarding a content dispute. It looks like one side tries to circumvent the discussion and enforce their view by gaining administrative sanctions against their opponents - which seems unlikely to happen. I don't know if Russavia's interaction ban is still alive or is applicable in this case, but the diff he presented here doesn't show any violation of wiki policies. How did Sander's question violate any policy? Neither does this diff reveal actual accusations of sock puppetry. In sum, there is nothing that warrants sanctioning the party reported here. Estlandia (dialogue) 10:59, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

    Comment by The Devil's Advocate

    Seems to me like Russavia is using this AE request as a backdoor to amending the Arbitration case, by violating the restriction he wants to amend. It stretches credulity to accept Russavia's argument that he was not talking to Sander Sade in this instance. His comment is immediately after Sander's and is plainly responding to Sander's comments. This is clearly an interaction and thus a violation. If he objects to the sanction Russavia should be presenting this at Requests for Amendment or filing an appeal. Violating it and then using an editor's reaction to that violation as cause for incrementally implementing the desired change by requesting that admins impose an interaction ban is disruptive. More to the point, having a one-way interaction ban made into a mutual interaction ban is a common-sense amendment that I think most admins would support. There is no good reason to piggyback off an AE request to achieve it and doing so just seems like an effort to make a point.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 19:10, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

    Result concerning Sander Säde

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
    • The diffs presented in this case are in my opinion not sufficient to establish conduct that warrants sanction. I would be inclined to close this case without any action than a general whack on the head on all involved to start valuing neutrality over nationality and refraining from continuing to lob potshots at each other. (The participants, being veterans at this, are no doubt used to such admonishments however). henrik•talk 20:55, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
    • Speaking only of the particular comment that prompted this AE thread, I would say that it does not, in and of itself, justify a sanction, but it is unnecessarily hostile and combative, and not to the standard we should be expecting of any editor, much less those involved in contentious areas subject to arbitration remedies. I recommend Sander Säde be admonished not to unnecessarily comment on editors with whom he disagrees, and Russavia in particular. I would also remind him that repeatedly side-tracking discussions to talk about editors with whom he disagrees may result in sanctions. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 05:28, 21 January 2012 (UTC)