| Revision as of 19:17, 16 February 2012 editZero0000 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators41,859 edits →Eothen, what it actually contains← Previous edit | Revision as of 19:19, 16 February 2012 edit undoZero0000 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators41,859 edits →Eothen, what it actually containsNext edit → | ||
| Line 52: | Line 52: | ||
| :From what I could see of his work online, that was what I had determined as well, but I thought he might have written about deaths elsewhere in the text, which is why I asked for quotes above. Thanks for double checking that. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:16, 16 February 2012 (UTC) | :From what I could see of his work online, that was what I had determined as well, but I thought he might have written about deaths elsewhere in the text, which is why I asked for quotes above. Thanks for double checking that. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:16, 16 February 2012 (UTC) | ||
| :: Multiple editions are at archive.org. I checked the two editions cited here. (I also reverted myself as it wasn't 24 hours yet, I'm away from home and can't keep track of the time.) ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 19:19, 16 February 2012 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 19:19, 16 February 2012
 | Jewish history Start‑class Mid‑importance | |||||||||
| ||||||||||
{{WikiProject Former countries|class=start|importance=|Ottoman=yes|Ottoman-importance=low}}
Page name
I would lie to point out that the "Safed Plunder" is an event name in Jewish literature, not a description like 1834 pogrom or 1834 riot/massacre. Changing its name or including another 1838 event as part of it is incorrect.Greyshark09 (talk) 17:19, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Sources
Biosketch asked me to elaborate on the sources I think are problematic in this article. I haven't looked at the rest of the article, but the sources in the "History" section are all either invalid or dubious. I might add that they do not support the article text either.
About the best and most comprehensive source in this section is Kinglake, and the book is a travelogue from 1864! The next cite is to eretzyisroel.org, an obviously partisan blog citing a discredited source, Joan Peters' From Time Immemorial. The source after that is The goodly heritage, published by the Youth Dept of the Zionist Organization, 1958. The source after that is a rehash of Kinglake. Then comes Joan Peters again. Finally, there's a 1960 book of unknown provenance, and then a book in Hebrew, again of totally unknown provenance (which is used to source some of the more exceptional claims). So there isn't a single decent source in this entire section. Gatoclass (talk) 13:46, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
- Right, I asked you to elaborate here because generally a comment on the Discussion page should accompany a flag. As for the sources, at first glance at least one of them does appear problematic. A blog should never be linked to as a historical reference, in my opinion. I'll look at the rest a little later.—Biosketch (talk) 17:48, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
- I would agree on Joan Peters - not WP:RS. regarding the rest of them don't see a problem on the first glance, but i would take a deeper look later.Greyshark09 (talk) 19:11, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
Request for full quotes
I have checked the sources cited. Besides being of dubious reliability, I cannot find information supporting key claims in our article. The parts bolded below are not supported by the sources I could see. Could someone provide full quotes please?
They had been incited by a local Muslim clergyman and self-proclaimed Islamic "prophet" called Muhammad Damoor, who "foresaw" the massacre which he instigated. From his "prophecies":
"the true Believers would rise up in just wrath against the Jews, and despoil them of their gold, and their silver, and their jewels."
The pogrom went on for 33 days. It caused the Jewish community to dwindle; many Jews were beaten to death or severely wounded. Accounts tell of blinding men, torturing men and women. Alexander Kinglake described the events as a massacre, and Abraham Yaari and others refer to incidents of mass-rape of Jews in Safed, Galilee.
It is not clear how many died, but historians assert the number is high, likely over 500.
Thanks. Tiamut 18:17, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
Just a question. Are you actually trying to make these articles citations better or are you attempting to deny that the Arabs carried out genocides upon the indigenous pre-Zionist Jewish population? Just a question. talk —Preceding undated comment added 18:21, 15 February 2012 (UTC).
- I'm totally unfamiliar with this event and am hoping to be better educated about it. I'd like to see better sources but cannot find any. So I am asking for someone to reproduce the passages relevant to the material included in our article. Hopefully, it will contain footnotes citing other works. I'm also aware that sometimes some editors include information in articles that is not actually in th spurces cited. Given that I'v not heard about this event outside of this page, I'd like to make sure that's not the case here. Can you provide the information I have asked for? Tiamut 18:27, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
I learned about this event in university. I'll look for more sources but this isn't my exact area of expertise for my bachelors in History. I learned about it in contrast to the Palestinian claim that "Jews and Muslims lived peacefully before Zionism." I think the general problem with these articles is that the Pro-Palestine side wants to delete anything that disproves that the Old Yishuv experienced massacres and the Pro-Israel side wants to delete anything about Plan Dalet. I'll look for sources but I think a authority on this time period and subject should be found. DionysosElysees (talk) 18:35, 15 February 2012 (UTC) 18:35, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
Tiamut's concerns over sources are justified. Something like this should be based on the research of modern historians, but at the moment it is a mixture of old second-hand accounts, primary sources uncritically presented, and in some places no clear source at all. Fortunately I found a good scholarly source: Tudor Parfitt, The Jews in Palestine 1800-1882, has about 6 pages on it. Some of it contradicts what is here, such as the claim of 500 deaths. Parfitt also says that the sources disagree on who the perpetrators were. I'll be doing some rewriting based on this source in the near future. Zero 00:56, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
Kinglake's second hand account
All of the sources in this article appear to lead back to Kinglake's 1844 book Eothen. The chapter on this subject is very colourful, and Kinglake is very clear (1) that he did not witness any of these events, and (2) that the people who told him the story wanted him to influence the consul in Damascus.
Does anyone else agree that the tone of this article is totally incorrect in light of this? Or can someone provide sources which lead back to any meaningfully stronger evidence? Oncenawhile (talk) 23:53, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
Numbers
The article includes the sentence "It is not clear how many died, but historians assert the number is high, likely over 500". Can anyone verify the source? i cannot see the number 500 in the google snippet. Oncenawhile (talk) 00:00, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
- I asked for verification of this and several other things as well above. None has yet been forthcoming. Tiamut 19:17, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
Rivlin and Isseroff
Other than Kinglake, this article (and the rest of the internet) have one other underlying source for this event, which at this stage do not qualify as RS. That is, an article written in 1934 by a Zionist journalist named Eliezer Rivlin (born 1889 ), and translated recently by the late blogger Ami Isseroff. The article is interesting but the translation cannot be RS without the original, and the original would need to clear a high bar given the context in which it was written. Can any Hebrew speakers find the original? Oncenawhile (talk) 00:16, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
Eothen, what it actually contains
This book of Kinglake is a marginal source, but since we are probably going to keep it we should cite it accurately. Far from describing the affair as a massacre (as our text explicitly states, Kinglake wrote only of theft. There isn't a single death mentioned in his book. There isn't a single rape either, in fact he says that the worst thing that happened ("the most odious of all outrages") was that women were searched for valuables. Zero 19:11, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
- From what I could see of his work online, that was what I had determined as well, but I thought he might have written about deaths elsewhere in the text, which is why I asked for quotes above. Thanks for double checking that. Tiamut 19:16, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
- Multiple editions are at archive.org. I checked the two editions cited here. (I also reverted myself as it wasn't 24 hours yet, I'm away from home and can't keep track of the time.) Zero 19:19, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
- ^ Kinglake, Alexander William. Eothen. 1914, p. 217
- ^ Kinglake, Alexander William. Eothen. 1864, p. 291
- Stillman, Norman A. The Jews of Arab lands: a history and source book. 1979, p. 340
- Joan Peters, From Time Immemorial: the origins of the Arab-Jewish conflict over Palestine, JKAP Publications, 1985, pp. 183, 185-86
- Finkelstein, Louis. The Jews: their history, culture, and religion 1960. p. 679
- Abraham Yaari, Israel Schen & Isaac Halevy-Levin. The Goodly Heritage: memoirs describing the life of the Jewish community of Eretz Yisrael from the seventeenth to the twentieth centuries. 1958, p. 37
- ^ Schur, Nathan. History of Safed (Heb). Ariel 1983, p.189