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ANY Accurate Bio Should include the following information :

George W. Bush -- By his own admission ( thus not disputable ) was a D student and a poor academic. His Father bought his way into Yale, Where he was known for his fanatically Pro - Vietnam War political stance while on student deferment. Anyone who questioned him on this contradiction was subject to the whispering campaigns by which he would get back at his enemies ... ie any who would chalenge him. His inability to endure any criticism and engage in reasoned debate or discussion was clearly noted by his teachers and classmates.

Given a coveted position for Fighter training for which he was not suited, in the National Guard , again only through political influence of his family, since normaly only the best candidates, in academic ability and charachter are allowed to train for fighters -- one of the most highly skilled and competitive areas of military training -- widely known to anyone who folows military aviation and training.

It is also widely known that ever since the faliures of early vietnam in producing pilots of high caliber -- later on changes in training and selection were vastly improved. It was an essential charachter trait for "fighter jock" that they had aggressive and sure confidence ( justified or not) that they are better than most - a kind of attitude which made them eager to test their skills and increased as well the odds that they WOULD be one of those whowere not as likely to waste multi million dollar craft, or far worse -- the incredible expense of fighter military training -- in the hundreds of millions s --- by getting themselves killed and not justify the huge expewnse of their sp-ecialized training.

It is worth noting that although the fighter war inb Vietnam was ongoing at the time of George Bush's Time with the Gaurd -- He made no effort or attempt to join the rest of those of his avowed occupation - either joining the acction, or trying by any means available to put their skills to the test in real combat, not always available to these highly trained, skilled and motivated aviators -- at least those whose positions were attained through merit and ability.

Censure Resolution

Should the censure resolution include a quote from Senator Feingold, or at least an extra line about the purpose? More text is devoted to the problems with the resolution than is devoted to explaining what the censure is - a poor explanationg at best. --Ryan 21:06, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Rhobite's removal of prisoners' rights and wiretap content from the intro

Respectfully Rhobite (and others), can you provide more justification for this edit, the removal of the wiretap and "prisoners' rights/torture/rendition" content from the lead, the summary for which reads:

rm wiretaps/habeas corpus from lead section. inappropriately negative, and not major enough for the lead.

The lead contains a number of seemingly mundane topics - for example, a mention of Bush's having signed a medicare law - but the wiretap scandal (which has thus far brought a motion of censure to the Senate) and the 'torture/rendition/rights of detainees/abu gitmo' issues, while certainly negative to Bush are a direct result of actions he personally asserts to be within his rights, as a 'unitary executive'. - it's true they're unflattering... but they are more than major, they're positively notorious. Can you elaborate on your rationale? The edit doesn't sit well with me, but I'm not going to revert it outright, I'd like to understand Rhobite's and folks' view/rationale of this edit better before I decide. That having been said, the text of the content in question is pretty poor and could itself do with a fair amount of editing, in my humble opinion. Anyway, thanks! -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:23, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

The other mundane information should go as well. In my opinion a good lead section should be a "dictionary definition" of the subject, containing stuff that high-schoolers who know nothing about politics would understand. Bush is the 43rd and current president. He is a republican and was elected twice to the presidency after twice being elected to gov of texas. His presidency created the bush doctrine, the war on terror, and the iraq and afghanistan wars. That is all it needs. Details of the war on terror or the election or whatever that people love or hate are subtopics of those topics and people can find the information in the appropriate places. The current lead section needs to be divided into subsections. 67.124.201.166 12:38, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this. There is no need to delve into individual details or minutae. It should be broad and informative. There is a section on the war on terror and this is where wiretap stuff should go. It needs to be a lot more general. For a guide, go to the Clinton bio. In the intro, there is no Monica Lewinksy. No motion of censure since it wasn't voted on (yes, it was presented), etc, etc. There are places for the details. --Tbeatty 18:12, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

However, I wasn't saying the censure motion should be in the intro, but the raging wiretap and habeas corpus controversies themselves. The wiretap and habeas issues are not merely an aspect of the 'war on terror' (or whatever else the brand name for American pre-emptive war policies) - they are fundamental constitutional issues that are defining this presidency and changing America itself. The censure motion is a mere blip. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:18, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Every president has "fundamental consitutional issues." From claims of executive privilege to the expanse of federal power. This is merely a news item that has it's place but not in the intro. It is a small part in the overall "War on Terror". I think WOT is fundamental, but the minutae of praise and crticism of individual aspects of it belong in different sections. Patriot Act, Homeland Securty, TSA, Rendering, Enemy Combatants, Wiretaps, Faith-Based Intitiatives, Abortion restriction, etc, are all constitutional issues. And there are even other issues such as Plame Affair that are not Constitutional but are still major events. --Tbeatty 00:06, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

What's Abu Gitmo? Do you mean Abu Gahrab(?) and Gitmo Prison?

Yes. And the violation of FISA and human rights of prisoners is not a mere 'news item'. So far, it appears to be the most far-reaching Constitutional 're-interpretation' by any modern president - and potentially the most illegal act to which a President himself has admitted. Wiretapping Americans in direct violation of FISA is not a 'small part in the war on terror'... it's a violation of our basic Constitutional laws, and since President Bush has admitted making the decision himself to circumvent FISA despite warnings from WH counsel, it may even be an impeachable offense - it's not just part of some PR effort to justify invasion. since the information about who was wiretapped, what was recorded and what actions may have been taken is 'classified', and outside the jurisdiction of FISA, there is no proof that this 'unitary executive' privilege that the President has asserted has only been used against suspected terrorists. Quite the opposite in fact - we've begun to see reports of FBI surveillance and search of domestic peace rallies, political events, private meetings and even private homes and residences within the U.S. Where is the proof that only suspected terrorists, and not political enemies, may have been wiretapped? The claim it's just part of the 'war on terror' is a claim, not a fact that is verifiable. Compartmentalization of issues in the interests of damage control is for politicians, not for an encyclopedia. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 13:44, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a bunch of spin doctoring to me. I especially like the demands for proof that a crime has not been committed. But it clearly falls under the category of war on terror in many verifiable ways. For example the justification given, and the source of funding. You have already conceded as much. keith 14:59, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

We simply disagree. And of course, you mischaracterized my position. I am not asking for negative proof. I am saying that actions without any public oversight, which can not be verified, can not be verified to be within, or beyond, the war on terror. All we have to go on are conflicting statements from Bush and other involved parties. Therefore, it's not 'clearly under' any category - it stands alone as a crisis. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 16:11, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

When it becomes and impeachable offense or it becomes a crime, we can add it to the intro. But until then, it's just par for the course of a President. You outlined your beliefs, but that's exactly what they are. They are not fact. I, personally, disagree with almost every one of your assertions. I don't think the wiretaps violated the law. I don't think 'unitary executive' is a new concept or a wrong interpretation. I don't think gitmo or 'enemy combatants' is unconstitutional. I do believe that wiretap information that the NSA has can be used in a court of law. The fact that this is unsettled means that it doesn't belong in the intro, it belongs in the body where all points of view can be fully developed. --Tbeatty 17:38, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The fact that we (as in a sense, representative Americans) disagree so strongly about the issue (which, again, is the President's intentional bypassing of FISA) speaks to it's notoreity. It certainly doesn't support 'folding' it conceptually into the topic of the 'war on terror' meme. In my opinion the fact that it is as notorious as it is, generating massive public outcry and at this point a censure motion, speaks to the value of addressing it at the outset of the article. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:38, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

You are confusing contemporary with contentious. Last year it was social security. Before that, Afghan war, before that tax cuts. It's as contentious as 'Hillary Care' or travelgate was in the clinton adminstration. All of those items are just as contentious. But they have their place. Ken Starr wasn't even mentioned. His impeachment received one sentence. If we choose the Clinton wording it would be something lie "Bush's priorities were to fight the Global War on Terrorism, reduce the tax burden and grow the economy, reform social security, etc, etc. --Tbeatty 19:37, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Let's put it this way, the Bush Administration intro is twice as long as the Clinton info in about half the time. Has the Bush administration really accomplished twice as much as the Clinton Administration in half the time?--Tbeatty 19:43, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not confusing the two. The wiretap scandal is a fundamentally different 'beast' than the failed attempts to privatize social security, or the Afghan war. Your view that this is somehow of the 'same stripe' as the other issues you mention is just that - a POV - it's not fact. -- User:RyanFreisling@ 19:47, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Your view that they are of a different stripe is just that - a POV - not fact. Why does POV belong in the intro instead of a controversy section or a policy section where competing views can be explored? I don't believe these issues will define his presidency any more than Elian Gonzalez defined Clinton's presidency or Terri Schiavo defines Bush's. It looks bad when it happens but in the long run it's just a blip. This is the same with the wiretaps. There is lots of press and "controversy" today but it is a temporal issue. --Tbeatty 06:50, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Once again, you are misrepresenting my argument. I'm not asserting POV belongs in the intro. I'm asserting that the wiretap and human rights abuses of prisoners 'issues' are profound and fundamental - FAR more so that Terri Schiavo or Elian. The willing disregard of FISA in order to circumvent the Constitution and perform unauthorized search is entirely different than the other issues you mention from a Constitutional perspective. And the President's primary role is not to 'protect the infirm' or 'rescue Cuban kids' - it's to 'protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. You've also parroted my words back to me (blip) twice now, a sign the discussion may be becoming unproductive. If so, I'm willing to agree to disagree and leave it at that :) . -- User:RyanFreisling @ 14:08, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Reread what you jsut said: "profound and fundamental" = POV - "willing disregard of FISA in order to circumvent the Constitution" = POV - "human rights abuses" = POV. I disagree with you htat you can properly include these as introductory items. You state as fact issues that are very much disputed. I don't think the NSA wiretaps have anything to do with FISA and are covered by a completely different law. I am willing to ascertain that others will disagree with me and therefore this should go in the controversy section. The 'War on Terror' is general enough to put in the intro. Wiretaps and human rights abuses are POV that belong in the controversy section. --Tbeatty 18:44, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

In my assessment those phrases are not POV. 'human rights abuses' is objective at this point. The argument isn't being made that the behavior going on (torture, murder, rendition, starvation) isn't abusive - the argument is that those people do not possess protection against such behavior. I've explained this elsewhere, but the wiretap scandal involves a President who himself commanded a violation of FISA. Section 1809 of FISA clearly states that:

" person is guilty of an offense if he intentionally - (1) engages in electronic surveillance under color of law except as authorized by statute. . . .'

And Section 2511(2)(f) provides that FISA:

"shall be the exclusive means by which electronic surveillance {...} may be conducted.'

Thus, a person has broken the law if -- as the President admits he did -- he orders eavesdropping on Americans without complying with the warrant requirements of the statute. That's not POV. The POV is that bypassing was not illegal, not that it occurred. The example you mentioned (assault weapon ban) is about interpreting the extent of a Constitutional provision. This is about a direct, admitted violation of FISA and the Constitution. The POV is whether or not one believes the claim that the President has inherent authority to violate the FISA law. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 20:18, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

And Alberto Gonzales admitted this. He stated that the wiretapping NSA engaged in requires judicial approval under FISA on December 15, 2005:

"Now, in terms of legal authorities, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act provides -- requires a court order before engaging in this kind of surveillance that I've just discussed and the President announced on Saturday, unless there is somehow -- there is -- unless otherwise authorized by statute or by Congress. That's what the law requires."

There's POV, and there's fact. The precise nature of this Constitutional crisis is factual - and the attempts to avoid accountability under the auspices of unitary privilege are POV. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 20:26, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Did you not read this part "except as authorized by statute"? The Bush Administration claims the statute that authorizes them to hunt down and kill the 9/11 terrorist also gives them the authority to listen to their phone calls.--Tbeatty 05:25, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Your hostility is unproductive. Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me as to which statute that was, exactly, that authorized wiretaps? In the words of Senator Patrick Leahy, "Now that the illegal spying of Americans has become public and the President has acknowledged the four-year-old program, the Bush Administration�s lawyers are contending that Congress authorized it. The September 2001 Authorization to Use Military Force did no such thing" -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:11, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

You misinterpret my statement. It wasn't hostile, it was to enlighten. Leahy's submittal on the "Sense of the Senate" is not law. Nor is it an lawful interpretation or have any legal standing. I don't even think it was passed. The wording is currently "That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons." To me, and the Administration, "all" includes monitoring phone calls of those persons, nations, and organizations regardless of whether those calls are placed to the U.S. It is lunacy to think that the call from Osama bin Laden to Mohammad Atta would not be able to be listened to and that the specific statute that addresses force against these terrorists didn't authorize it. --Tbeatty 06:31, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Leahy, like many of the Senators participating, voted on the statute itself, and asserts it did not in any way authorize wiretapping. It is not his statement that I am alleging to be law, it is his view of the legislation he himself voted on that is relevant - just as wiretap is relevant to Bush because he himself admitted authorizing it in defiance of FISA. Your claim that 'use all appropriate force' automatically includes 'wiretap Americans in the U.S. in direct violation of FISA' is one of the Bush administration's POV talking points, but it is not shared by many of the Senators in the censure hearings, Leahy among them - and is, on it's face, legally indefensible. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:45, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I have no other definition of 'All'. These are foreign phone calls that may originate or terminate at 9/11 terrorist locations. I still can't see how you think that the Act didn't authorize the NSA to listen in on a OBL to "Terrorist In the US Phone Call." That makes no sense. It's great political posturing for Dems, but doesn't pass scrutiny. Let's put it this way: God forbid that another terrorist strike happens, but if it was because we couldn;t listen to OBL giving instructions to terrorists in the U.S., I'd bet dollars to donuts that Leahy's "Interpretation" would be completely different. --Tbeatty 06:54, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

'All appropriate force' did not and does not include wiretapping Americans when FISA already provided the President that capability. However, inconvenient for the 'new era', observing FISA requires the administration to offer an explanation for why the wiretapping should be conducted. The Bush administration did not want to have to justify it's wiretapping, so it circumvented FISA. If you can't understand how I hold the opinion I do, consider that a Senator, who deliberated and voted, holds the same opinion. It's not political posturing, it's protecting and defending the Constitution of the United States. We are not a country of men, or of parties. We are a country of laws. By removing judicial oversight, you are trusting a man over the law. That's not my America.

Nor is it Senator Robert Byrd's (D-WV):

"Now comes the stomach-churning revelation through an executive order, that President Bush has circumvented both the Congress and the courts. He has usurped the Third Branch of government the branch charged with protecting the civil liberties of our people by directing the National Security Agency to intercept and eavesdrop on the phone conversations and e-mails of American citizens without a warrant, which is a clear violation of the Fourth Amendment. He has stiff-armed the People's Branch of government. He has rationalized the use of domestic, civilian surveillance with a flimsy claim that he has such authority because we are at war. The executive order, which has been acknowledged by the President, is an end-run around the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which makes it unlawful for any official to monitor the communications of an individual on American soil without the approval of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court." -- User:RyanFreisling @ 07:01, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I perfectly understand how you hold your opinion. But I and others disagree with it. FISA says it only applies when it isn't superceded by another law. Intercepting communications of the enemy, whether the enemy is "foreign or domestic," is a fundamental part of warfare. I hope you can also see why others disagree with you. This whole discussion belong in the controversies section, not in the intro. --Tbeatty 16:04, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

FISA states it 'shall be the exclusive means by which electronic surveillance {...} may be conducted.' The exception for wiretapping 'authorized by statute' does not legally mean 'any possible interpretation of any statute'. It means specific authorization by statute, which the September 2001 act did not provide, as numerous signatories of the act have stated.

You again claim a negative where none exists. Wiretapping, which you state is a fundamental part of warfare, was not prohibited by FISA, which permitted it under certain specific judicial oversight. It is judicial oversight that theexectuive seeks to avoid in violating FISA, to allow them to tap massively and indiscriminately:

The NSA program came to light in December, when the New York Times reported that the President had authorized the agency to intercept telephone and Internet communications inside the United States without the authorization of any court. Over the ensuing weeks, it became clear that the NSA program has been intercepting and analyzing millions of Americans' communications, with the help of the country's largest phone and Internet companies, including AT&T. This surveillance is ongoing, and today's injunction motion seeks to stop the spying while the case is pending.

The scope and impact of this scandal is unprecedented, and it's not just 'part of the war on terror'. It deserves specific treatment, representing the Congressional and Constitutional crisis Bush's actions have generated - not to be folded into that PR topic.-- User:RyanFreisling @ 16:57, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

This is election year jockeying, not a scandal. It is ludicrous to say that the authorization for war (which the resolution was) doesn't include listening in on the enemies private phone calls. The Commander in Chief in a time of war does not need permission of the court to conduct wartime operations. It's silly on it's face. Statutes also prohibit the use of the military as law enforcement: Does that mean that if a hijacker took control of an aircraft, the military couldn't shoot it down without a court order or due process? Please. The September 11th act authorized all of these measures and more. This is NOT law enforcement, it is war. The enemy is contacting people in the U.S. whether they are citizens or not, and monitoring those conversations are a part of this war. In fact, using the FISA courts to conduct war would set a dangerous precedent for future Presidents and violate the separation of powers doctrine. Every member of congress that is privy to these wiretaps say it is an important program and has saved lives. In the end, after the election, the program will be ratified by Congress. The NY Times did a grave disservice to the nation by publishing it's details. --Tbeatty 17:24, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Once again, we are a nation of laws, not of men. If you can illustrate how the AUMF (Authorization to Use Military Force) authorized this behavior, you will have done the President a great service in avoiding accountability. A leaked Justice Department memo that appears to confirm the President's right to conduct warrantless domestic wiretapping, provided that the wiretapping was of individuals meeting the AUMF's requirement, reads:

"The Supreme Court�s interpretation of the AUMF in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, 542 U.S. 507 (2004), confirms that Congress in the AUMF gave its express approval to the military conflict against al Qaeda and its allies and thereby to the President�s use of all traditional and accepted incidents of force in this current military conflict�including warrantless electronic surveillance to intercept enemy communications both at home and abroad.

The AUMF reads:

"the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons." (FindLaw)

However, The AUMF does not authorize the kind of massive wiretapping, interception and data-mining of millions of Americans' communications, as we've learned is occuring:

While refusing to discuss how the highly classified program works, Chertoff made it pretty clear that it involves "data-mining" -- collecting vast amounts of international communications data, running it through computers to spot key words and honing in on potential terrorists. "It's hard to talk about classified stuff," {DHS Secretary Chertoff} said, "but suffice it to say that if you have a large volume of data, a large number of (phone) numbers you're intercepting, the typical model for any kind of warrant requires you to establish probable cause (that one party is a foreign agent) on an individual number." , also see ,.

Since the President has authorized the wiretapping of millions of Americans' phone and email conversations, and has not authorized domestic wiretapping only of individuals meeting the AUMF's requirement, he has clearly exceeded the AUMF. Next, your characterization that "Every member of congress that is privy to these wiretaps say it is an important program and has saved lives" is plainly unproven. Rockefeller, for example, expressed great concern:

Rockefeller stated that the briefing he received on the program left him "unable to fully evaluate, much less endorse" the wiretapping program, and that "ithout more information and the ability to draw on independent legal or technical expertise, I simply cannot satisfy lingering concerns raised by the briefing we received"

Besides - discussing the program with a few Congressmen does not satisfy the requirements of the Constitution. FISA, however, explicitly addresses warrantless wiretapping during wartime, in Section 1811:

Notwithstanding any other law, the President, through the Attorney General, may authorize electronic surveillance without a court order under this subchapter to acquire foreign intelligence information for a period not to exceed fifteen calendar days following a declaration of war by the Congress. (FindLaw)

Knowing this was the law, Bush didn't ask for more time, or more authority. He simply dismissed FISA and personally authorized the NSA to wiretap without regard for the law, based on his own view of the powers of the executive.

"{Bush} argued that he did not need {a change in the law}, that it might not have been approved and would in any case, in the words of his assistant attorney general in a letter to Congress, "have tipped off our enemies concerning our intelligence limitations and capabilities".

The resulting outrage that the leak of the NSA wiretapping activity has generated is similarly American, not merely Democratic. This is not election year posturing... that's the most recent GOP talking point, as evidenced in their attack ad on Feingold, claiming:

{Sen. Russell Feingold (D-CA)} is the "leader" of a group of Democrats "working against" the president's efforts to "secure our country" by monitoring terrorist communications and disrupting terrorist plots, and the claim that "{he is} more interested in censuring the president than protecting our freedom"

Our argument has now run the gamut of the administration's current defenses, from 'unitary privilege' to 'it was authorized by the 11th Act' to 'all we're doing is wiretapping terrorists' to 'Congress was briefed' to 'Why do you hate America?'... but I see very little critical analysis from Bush's supporters - as if they simply trust he'll make the right decision about who, when and what to wiretap. That's un-American. I think it's quite clear where the politicization is occuring - and where the accountability is lacking. In any case, at this point, with millions of phone and email conversations between innocent Americans being tapped, it's quite clear the scope of the crisis is well beyond being an 'aspect of the war on terror'. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 17:33, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

And once again I have to point out that that is your POV. You are entitled to it. But it is not fact and is disputed and doesn't belong in the intro where side will be able to explore it fully. As for your "millions", you need to add this to the page on the NSA Surveillance article becuase it is lacking. The article mentions "thousands". And as far as I can tell, it was only phone calls that originated and terminated with those persons the president had determined were responsible for 9/11. You keep quoting only Democrats in an election year. This should tell you this is a POV determination. The Attorney General and the President has determined this is legal. The courts have not issued a stay (so either the "millions" don't have standing or they are legitmate) and the Congress has not revised or passed any resolution saying they disagree with the interpretation. What we have is Democratic senators grandstanding in order to get face time on TV and whip up the base in a lather. But there is little more to it. And I've given you the critical analysis for the justification. We are monitoring the communications of those nations, persons and organizations that were responsible for 9/11. One of those communications methods is "telephone." I'm sure there are more. We are also attacking them in all sorts of ways, including direct military action, covert military action, disinformation, financial disruption, psychological warfare and others. And speaking of critical analysis: Does the 9/11 military authorization supercede Posse Comitatus? Does the President have the authority to shoot down an airliner over the U.S. (on routes that started and ended in a U.S. City, just like 9/11) even if the Hijacker is an American Citizen? And if hte President does have this authority how did he achieve it? There is no explicit repeal in the Authorization. And when you make it this far, please tell me how you think that thought process that superceded Posse Comitatus doesn't supercede FISA (or rather supplement it)? Doesn't it seem odd that the president is authorized to attack and kill al Qaeda all over the world (including the U.S.) but we can't listen to their phone calls? --Tbeatty 02:36, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

While the exact number of innocent Americans affected isn't clear, as Attorney General Gonzales refused to answer that question, saying "that information remains classified", what has leaked is that there are at least tens if not hundreds of thousands of American conversations/emails/individuals possibly affected. 'Millions' is indicated by numerous sources that I provided inline, including Chertoff's comments, which also serve as an example that I've not quoted only Democrats. A primary indication of the scope of this classified program is this article, which states:

In the anxious months after the Sept. 11 attacks, the National Security Agency began sending a steady stream of telephone numbers, e-mail addresses and names to the F.B.I. in search of terrorists. The stream soon became a flood, requiring hundreds of agents to check out thousands of tips a month.

In another strong indication, Russ Tice, the whistleblower, has indicated the possible scope of affected Americans:

President Bush has admitted that he gave orders that allowed the NSA to eavesdrop on a small number of Americans without the usual requisite warrants. But Tice disagrees. He says the number of Americans subject to eavesdropping by the NSA could be in the millions if the full range of secret NSA programs is used. "That would mean for most Americans that if they conducted, or you know, placed an overseas communication, more than likely they were sucked into that vacuum," Tice said.

In addition, the 'EFF' case that describes the NSA program as one that 'intercepts and analyzes the communications of millions of ordinary Americans' was already mentioned on the NSA article (I added Tice's comments there). I have demonstrated facts to substantiate every point I raised above, what exactly are you claiming is POV? The President violated FISA. The sources made it quite clear, and factual - we are monitoring, intercepting and analyzing a vast store of communications, not just those of known terrorists, and scanning them for 'keywords' or other indications of possible terrorism... and then retroactively investigating the participants. That's the opposite of the law. If the individuals are suspected of terrorism and it's an emergency, FISA allows for 72-hour retroactive warrants, and the FISC has approved all but five of the 19,000 requests it received. However, the NSA is now intercepting American conversations which have nothing to do with terrorism, in hopes of netting a terrorist. That's an entirely different, and illegal, proposition. And I'm not sure what your example of posse comitatus has to do with wiretapping, when they are addressed quite separately in our laws. A state of war does not mean that domestic laws are superceded without Congressional approval. The NSA wiretapping is, in essence, attacking the entire public in hopes of hitting a few terrorists. It's more akin to shooting down every airplane in hopes of downing one suspicious one. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:53, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

If it's so clear cut and factual, why did every senator, save 3, back away from censure (let alone impeachment or criminal charges)? Why hasn't the court stopped it? The reality is that laws are superceded all the time with new laws. Ttat's why we make new laws. We made a new one shortly after 9/11 and that was giving the president hte authority to use all available means to prevent future attacks. It didn't say with a court order. So far the only official legal viewpoint came from the Attorney General in favor of the program. In fact, the majority view of conresspeople who have commented one it is that it is a good program and should be continued but with more oversight. They simply say change the paperwork but nothing about any existing wiretaps that should not have been granted or outright stopped. It is simply disputable that what has transpired is against the law or unconstitutional. --Tbeatty 04:42, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

That's a logical fallacy. The censure motion by Senator Feingold is not the entirety of the controversy, and one's support for censure is not equivalent to one's view that the programs are illegal. The 9/11 AUMF didn't include wiretapping of innocent Americans. The program is classified, and therefore a court cannot simply 'step in'. In order for the Judicial branch to play its part, the information needs to be uncovered despite the government's efforts to hide it. And so, despite relentless attacks by the administration on the patriotism and motives of those seeking to uncover this information the wheels are definitely turning, Congress is involved, whistleblowers are speaking out, and hearings are being held. It's a whole lot bigger than the 'war on terror'. And the stated view of Gonzales, appointed by the very same individual who authorized the program, does not qualify as an objective legal view - especially since he was intentionally "confining {his} remarks to the Terrorist Surveillance Program as described by the President, the legality of which was the subject" of the Feb. 6 Senate hearing.

Laws are indeed changed, all the time. In this case, however, the behavior took place in violation of existing law... making it illegal. Bush could have sought to change the law, but thought it unnecessary. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:04, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

The wiretapping authorization was for Al Qaeda and those responsible for 9/11. Those are the poeple being wiretapped. If the listener at the other end happens to be an American Citizen, that is too bad. It's not illegal. The government is not 'hiding' it, it's secret and Congress is briefed and has been for the life of the program. Are you really telling me that after 9/11 and the Authorization to Use Force, the government would need a search warrant to listen to bin Laden give orders to Mohammad Atta because Atta was in the U.S.? Give me a break. The whole reason for the authorization and the Patriot Act and the Department of Homeland security and the North American Military command was so that this could not happen again. It's silly to think that 'all' did not mean 'all'. That somehow we could kill domestic terrorists but not listen to their calls. --Tbeatty 06:00, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it was authorized for al Qaeda and those responsible. And instead, millions of Americans' conversations have been tapped with no relation to al Qaeda. Congress was not 'briefed'. What information some Senators did receive, they are not permitted to share or act upon. Your example about Bin Laden and Atta is hyperbole, as I've repeatedly said that according to DoJ and the Congress in that instance, the AUMF would certainly apply. I have not contested that here, so the repeated argument you make, and it's Clintonian parsing of 'all' is likewise hyperbole. I should hope you don't misstate my argument simply to avoid any hint of acquiescence. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:09, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

While a wikipedia talk page is not the place to squabble over petty political disagreements, I can hardly see anyone stopping you two from going at each other. So do everyone using this talk page one favor, at least... Keep the ridiculous overuse of indentations to a minimum so the page isn't hundreds of times longer than it should be in comparison to most talk pages, thank you! I had a hard time reading the majority of your discussion as it got so bad that one word would be on every line to the right side of the page! Dudewheresmypizz4 12:28, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

The wiretapping authorization was for Al Qaeda and those responsible for 9/11. Those are the poeple being wiretapped.

The problem is, we have only Bush and Gonzalez's word on that, and they are hardly objective sources. That's the whole reason that judicial oversight exists: so that someone other than the person wanting to do the wiretap can determine whether it's justified. You might believe that Bush can be trusted with such unrestricted power, that he would never abuse it by having the NSA listen in on conversations having nothing to do with terrorism. But Bush is not a dictator, he's just the president. His power has limits. In addition, even if the authorization to use force somehow also authorized no-warrant wiretapping of American citizens, the Fourth Amendment still expressly warrantless searches. The courts have been very clear and very consistent, for as long as wiretaps have existed, that they are searches. Thus, there is no act of Congress that can give Bush the authority he claims to have, as no law can override the Constitution. 71.236.33.191 15:42, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

There is a secret judicial department within the white house designed specifically for spying during war time. They had given Bush permission to use their top secret judical service. Instead, Bush bypassed this system and created his own means to spy for for whatever reasons and for whatever end result... Yet he still prevents proper research from being done on WHO and WHAT they were spying on, claiming to spy only on internation relivant terrorists - are they telling you the truth? well, just ask yourself how many 'truths' have you known Bush to use.

One person involved with Homeland Security has recently been arrested for seducing a child online and sending harmful material to this child.

ok... I do not care if the person is internation or not, this type of spying could still violate people 'internationally' - what is to prevent them without the proper checks and balances?

Sorry, but you be the judge... Should our government have the ability to spy for security purposes for anything they deem worthy? Umm... who is doing the watching and who is watching those watching? What sort of governmental control do you want, and what makes you think that the government would act proper given their history?

You decide. What do you honestly think?

Think before you feel like you ought to agree with everything Bush does. 149.169.45.2 18:26, 5 April 2006

Also, even if Bush is being perfectly honest about only using this program to spy on terrorists now, that doesn't mean he can be trusted with the power. As the saying goes, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Neither Bush nor anyone can be trusted with the power he's claiming, the power to tap phones solely on his own say-so, without being required to provide evidence to anyone that the action is legally justified. 71.236.33.191 01:38, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Outside views

I agree with the above posters, the Intro shouldn't have issues like the Wire Tap scandal and such. The intro should just give a quick summary of his presidency, for Example FDR would contain the Great Depression, WWII, and other similar unique and crucial information of his presidency. Now if they start a successful motion to impeach based on it, then it may have a place, but once again broad, and leave the controversy to the section that goes in detail about it. PPGMD 18:35, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree...I always hear all these complaints in the media (and from the left) about how the Patriot Act and this wiretapping has greatly impacted everyone's civil liberties and I have yet to meet a single person that can tell me how they have actually been inconvienenced or felt "spied upon". The only changes I can see that have affected me are having to take my shoes off before I board a plane. I'm also still waiting for the press or the left to demostrate who has been adversely impacted due to all this wiretapping that is going on...the best way to aviod wiretapping is to not associate yourself with a known terrorist organization...that should be easy enough...(sorry Ryan, don't hit me! I don't think it is noteworthy for inclusion in the intro either...but certainly deserves elaboration elsewhere.)--MONGO 20:39, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Needless to say, MONGO - I respect your views. However - there are numerous documented instances of individuals and groups whose civil liberties have been impacted (just as an example, the Quakers). As the quote that has been attributed to Benjamin Franklin says, "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither". As far as its' inclusion in the intro, I'm still interested to hear others' opinions... :) -- User:RyanFreisling @ 20:49, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

There are thousands of people who are affected by Bush policy. SOme negative, some positive. Just like every President. Clinton banned assault rifles. I could use the same quote from Franklin and the same arguments about civil liberties. But it was just a blip. --Tbeatty 06:50, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Are you seriously equating the assault weapon ban with unauthorized search as equivalent constitutional crises? And are you seriously equating the public outcry and impact of the former with the latter? In my opinion, that's outright conflation. The assault weapon ban is related to the interpretation of the extent of a Constitutional provision, and was signed into law. The current President's actions involve directly violating the Constitution despite the existence of legislation (FISA) providing proper judicial oversight. Moreover, he publicly admitting having decided to authorize the executive branch to do so entirely of his own volition. It's unprecedented. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 14:04, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Anyone who believes in that Franklin quote should be an ardent opponent of gun control. keith 13:19, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I have to read through this more thoroughly, but right now I'm agreeing with RyanFresling. First off, the term at the beginning of this section "inappropriately negative" is completely misguided. Something being negative or positive has absolutlely no affect on its appropriateness for an encyclopedia. "Inappropriately inaccurate", "Inappropriately uninteresting", or "Inapporopriately unimportant" would be well guided, but not "negative" or "positive". Using those terms in that way is asserting a priori the distribution of positive and negative in an article, which is, by definition, bias. And bias conflicts with the NPOV policy.

Regarding

"not major enough for the lead", I think Ryan has established that it is more major than other things which (are in the lead already?) one would consider for the lead. Kevin Baas 17:54, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

]::::::On further reading and consideration, I think that a more appropriate model for comparision would be Richard Nixon. I say this without knowing the content of its intro. Kevin Baas 03:40, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Notwithstadning the completely unfair comparison, the Nixon intro is relatively benign compared to the current intro for GWB. I hope that gives some people pause to think about the current intro. --Tbeatty 06:36, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

We are all thinking and discussing (I hope, sometimes people discuss without thinking, and that's not very productive.) As for it being a completely unfair comparision, how so? Their popularity is comparable (with the exception that Nixon was being impeached when he had such low ratings), They're both republicans, both hawkish, they're both known for breaking laws regarding surveillence and it's a big issue for both of them. In all intellectual honestly, piece for piece I can't think of a more similiar president.

Regarding the intro being relatively benign, there are simply more issues surrounding Bush than there are Nixon. For example, if Nixon's elections were as controversial as Bush's, I'm sure that would be in the Nixon intro as well. Kevin Baas 18:10, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

On further reading, their policies differ significantly. Nixon was more of an environmentalist, he implemented the first significant affirmative action program, he was much more about diplomacy, and much more about non-proliferation. In sum, where policies are concerned, there are very stark contrasts between the two. However, I mantain that he is (perhaps) the only example for how to present an issue of illegal wiretapping by (or authorized by) a president. Kevin Baas 20:32, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

It's simply not illegal. No court has come to that conclusion. congress hasn't come to that conclusion. I doubt they will. The only person with official power to prosecute, the Attorney General, has said it isn't illegal. --Tbeatty 06:00, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Tbeatty, have you read this:NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy#Legality_of_warrantless_surveillance? I find this legal analysis especially cogent. You have the issue wrong, Tbeatty, the issue is not whether or not it's illegal, it's whether the president has the authority to break a law passed by congress. Kevin Baas 19:04, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

The recently added paragraph into the intro just makes it bigger, which is the last thing this article needs, and is highly slanted. Just another star in the night 06:33, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I haven't read this huge rambling discussion, but I should probably respond here. I removed this text because it doesn't fit in the intro. The lead section of an article is intentionally general. It should be a short mini-biography of Bush, not a laundry list of actions which he's been criticized for. The NSA wiretap controversy was a moderately large story, but it doesn't rise to the level of the lead section. And mentioning it before mentioning the entire Iraq war is just nuts. The suspension of habeas corpus is many orders of magnitude away from a lead-worthy topic.

It's not helpful to debate the importance of these stories here. We should rely on media coverage as a guideline for what gets included in the lead section. Rhobite 06:34, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a simulacrum. Kevin Baas 19:04, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your post, but if you want to understand the issue best, you might want to take the time and read the discussion above, prompted by your edit. The media coverage on the controversy has been pretty extensive indeed, and although I started the discussion on the fence vis-a-vis it's inclusion in the intro, I do believe the facts discussed elevates the topic to one relevant to the intro, given the scope of the controversy, constitutional issues involved, deep divisions among the public, and the utter lack of precedent for the way in which the program has come to light. In any case, I moved it below the Iraq War section, but you reverted that too. As far as 'habeas corpus', it's an important issue, but I could see arguments that it does not rise to the prominence of the NSA wiretap scandal. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 07:39, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Some of the reasons for inclusion of this in the intro seems a bit OR and out of focus. The exact ramifications of FISA, privacy precedent, and reasonable use of war-time authority, and domestic spying still seem to be debated. I would say that it is clear that GWB has pushed this at least somewhat farther than previous presidents, though that alone does not warrant inclusion in the intro. The intro is already bloated enough as is. Only clear, non-disputed, major (very major only), items should go in there, otherwise the intro drift into the article. Until there is a sited or common knowledge academic consensus over the spying issue, then it deserves no more than a section in the article (but not the intro).Voice-of-All 08:19, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Just to your point about consensus. It's not consensus between those who find themselves on opposite sides of the political aisle, but here's a note about the American consensus around wiretap legality from Senator Schumer in December 2005 when the program broke:

"beyond discussion, that if you're going to wiretap an American citizen you need a court's permission. In emergencies, of course, it's allowed 72 hours after it is done. That that was more or less the consensus in this country, it has been for 30 years, and it was a consensus the president was part of, at least as of a year and a half ago. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 08:30, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm bringing the disputed section here for the benefit discussion:

He has interpreted the resolution that authorizes force against the 9/11 terrorists to mean that the executive branch can suspend habeas corpus rights of U.S. citizens captured overseas who are "illegal enemy combatants." His interpretation allows him to conduct wiretaps of international calls that may involve U.S. citizens and other people located in the United States.

I think that it can be shorter and focus on the more fundamental issue: the president's constitutional interpretation of presidential power. I think that's intro-worthy, seeing as though it sets the entire scope and agenda of the presidency. Kevin Baas 19:09, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps one or two short sentences with a link to Unitary_executive_theory? Kevin Baas 22:28, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Let me give this a few tries:

Bush's presidency has been marked by controversy surrounding his interpretaion of the Constitution and the powers of the president. Namely, his assertion and practice of Unitary executive theory has resulted in accusations that he is exceeding his authority and being destructive of the system of checks and balances built into the Constitution.

Kevin Baas 01:53, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Power abuse is clearly seen all around. What has this guy done right? What has this administration done right? it is a big mess, in my opinion.

"original estimates" of how long troops would stay.

Actually, if we want to be accurate for the sake of NPOV here, the original estimates were that the troops would pretty much stay indefinitely, that the most likely outcome would be civil war, that the war would cost hundreds of billions of dollars, etc. The original estimates were dead-on accurate. Those estimators were promptly sacked, and new estimators were found that said what bush wanted to hear. It's disingenous to call what bush wanted to hear "estimates", and it's disingenuous to call them "original". Kevin Baas 19:04, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but a couple of weeks ago, the media was ranting about impending civil war in Iraq, and I haven't heard this for about a week now. I get the impression the media would like to see civil war erupt in Iraq just so they can have support for their predisposed bias that the war was inherently the wrong thing to do. After the owner of CNN Ted Turner essentially lambasted Bush recently, I have trouble believing that anything that CNN has to say on any matter regarding the war in Iraq to the Bush administration wouldn't be tainted with POV. Hence, this is one reasons a very NPOV organization...Gallup has parted with CNN. We never hear about electrical outage problems or medical supply difficulties or schools being inoperative anymore...because these issues no longer exist in any major form...the media doesn't want to tell us anything about the good that has occurred, just the bad. The fact is we can expect the U.S. military to retain at least the equal to 3 to 5 divisions in Iraq for at least another 10 years and that was something I feared about this invasion. The cost for the entire operation will be in the many hundreds of billions of dollars, consuming 10-15 percent of the U.S. GDP per year at a maximum.--MONGO 19:52, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

here's one reason why you don't hear about all the good things we're building (the logan video), and here's another. Derex 02:25, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Let's not get into a discussion about various strenghts and weaknesses of different media outlets, but let me just say that regarding the Iraq War, so far everything has gone as I initially predicted, much to my surprise. And that's the other thing about "estimates". Who's estimates? the public's? certainly not mine. The governments? certainly not the estimates of the people whose job it is to estimate. they were ignored, sometimes punished. who's estimates (if they can technically be called that)? Kevin Baas 20:47, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I seem to recall a lot of predictions referring to Vietnam which, if you've forgotten, was over 50,000 US dead and hundreds dying daily often times. Not to mention over a million dead Vietnamese. Is that the current situation as you see it? Sounds to me like it wasn't as good as the best-case scenario but was better than the worst-case. Both predictions were apparently naive.

I think the original estimate was for 10,000 dead on the initial invasion. I believe this came from the number of body bags ordered by the Defense Department. Estimates for staying in Iraq were indefinite as there has never been a "timetable." --Tbeatty 03:01, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

And of course Bush now expects us to be there until much later then 2009 - saying they will be there when he leaves office. With the situation as it is, it is more likely then not then MORE soldiers will be going rather then any getting sent home. The whole time, of course, KBR continues to profit and Cheney's stock looks better and better, as well as the pocket-book of many wealthy elite..... circumstancial? I will let you be the judge of that, and let you decide who would foster civil war (logically, the person at the most advantage of there being a civil war would seem to have the greatest motives to encourage one... thus, U.S. wealthy elite profit a lot or terrorists meeting their radical idealism... both choices seem plausable, thus worthy of research and debate with no decisive conclusion until evident)

Bush's Cocaine Use Allegations

I notice that while the Clinton Wiki article delves into every single allegation that the right-wing talk radio ever dreamed up against Clinton, the Bush article has been heavily sanitized and doesn't even mention a number of serious allegations against Bush (even if only to dispute them). I have no opinion on whether or not Bush ever used cocaine, but I do believe that this allegation ought to at least be mentioned in the article. If Bush himself had ever denied using cocaine, I would agree that it was a non-issue. However, Bush has been asked a number of times about past cocaine use and has always avoided answering the question and has only offered up glib comments like "When I was young and foolish, I was young and foolish." If Bush himself has not denied cocaine use (a felony, by the way), then surely this ought to at least get a mention in this article, if Wiki is going to claim even a tiny shred of credibility as a reference source.

See WP:Point. The solution here is not to make the Bush article more slanderous, but to go clean up the Clinton article. Don't bring this one down to its level; bring it up to this one's level. Make sure to request cites and give people time to add them, rather than just blanking. -Kasreyn 10:46, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Good point...good point...there's also an allegation that Bush is really a shape-shifting lizard and part of a New World Order conspiracy trying to take over the world. Perhaps we can post your links along side those?? Jeravicious 18:30, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that one of the major issues with many of these aliegations is that they are not verifiable which is a must if they are to be included in the article. Pegasus1138 ---- 23:34, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

True, although I do like the comment from the anonymous poster above, "If Bush himself has not denied cocaine use (a felony, by the way), then surely this ought to at least get a mention in this article"...which is equivalent to saying, "If Bush himself has not denied something...ANYTHING, then surely this ought to at least get a mention in this article"...BRILLIANT!! Jeravicious 00:37, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

In the interest of a more productive discussion, I'd like to point involved parties to the Misplaced Pages Civility Guidelines, as you appear to be out of line with your personal attacks, Jeravicious. Kuzaar 18:19, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Bush has been publicly accused on several occassions of using cocaine, and in response he's issued Clintonian not-quite-denials instead of saying outright that he hasn't used illegal drugs. If a major public figure is accused of committing a felony and doesn't directly deny it, that's certainly notable. 71.236.33.191 12:21, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

So we'll be adding Category:Suspected heralds of Galactus to this article? - A Man In Bl?ck (conspire | past ops) 00:55, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it could have been said better this way: "If Bush himself has denied cocaine use (a felony, by the way), then surely this ought to at least get a mention in this article.", only because we've already done an excellent job of doing exactly that. Kevin Baas 01:25, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, drug use is not against the law, it's possession, sale, etc. that are against the law.;

The reason why Clinton's alleged drug use is mentioned is because it is TRUE!!!! ~Lilfreakydude

umm, so is bush's use of that same drug. Derex 02:44, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Bush is a very honest liar, with lies ranging from the war in Iraq to lies such as Social Security issues. And before you jump to calling me a terrorist, which I am defintiely not, because I too hate terrorists. But don't we live in a free country? Don't we have the right to free speech? What if I personally don't agree with Bush?

Then you are a wise man, my friend. Well, sorta wise. The lies and deceptions of Bush are easy to detect. Only an ignorant person would not recognize them. I mean, how illogical is it to say that terrorists are fighting against freedom? They die for their cause! They are not concerned with getting some sort of temporal personal advantages out of it. Let us be honest, they are fighting against the imperalism of America, which they feel is violating their system of ethics and morals (economic control and dominance over other states is classified as imperalism, thus America would qualify - and especially now, since by definition imperalism is the control of another state; Iraq is currently under the control of America. Thus, by the definition of imperalism America is an imperial power. They fight the American empire, in other words)

Going back to the central topic of debate, i believe that mentioning the allegations of Bush's cocaine use does belong in this article. I'm not quite sure, because i don't live in the states, but i think i remember someone close to the bush family stating this in a book of some sort before the elections, and also seeing it in several other articles. It is a widely known fact that people have accused him of this. The fact that he has been accused of this is not irrelevant, is encyclopedic and therefore is better in the article, rather than ommited, IMO. Gerardo199 02:58, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Bush Family - Swedish American

According to this article from Svenska Dagbladet , the Bush family is related to Måns Andersson, a Swedish immigrant who came to American in the 1600s. Bronks april 3, 2006.

Yes, Måns Andersson is #1316 in George Bush's Ahnentafel.

1316       Måns Andersson
 658 & 659 Chrisopher Mounce & Martha
 328 & 329 Robert Mercer & Ann Mounce
 164 & 165 Robert Mercer & (possibly) Sarah Beeston
  82 &  83 John Mercer & Rebecca Davis
  40 &  41 George E. Walker & Harriet Mercer
  20 &  21 David Davis Walker & Martha Adela Beaky
  10 &  11 George Herbert Walker & Lucretia Wear
   4 &   5 Prescott Sheldon Bush & Dorothy Walker
   2 &   3 George Herbert Walker Bush & Barbara Pierce
         1 George Walker Bush

You can see the descent traced here - Nunh-huh 14:34, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Conspiracy Theory

From unsigned editor: ---SECTION ON 9/11 IN ORIGINAL PAGE---

PLEASE STOP PROPAGATING OFFICIAL VERSION OF EVENTS AND WHO IS RESPONSIBLE. THERE IS TOO MUCH INFORMATION BY NOW TO IGNORE AT LEAST THE QUESTIONABILITY OF THE OFFICIAL VERSION, AND THERE IS ABUNDANT COMPELLING EVIDENCE TO POINT THE FINGER THE OTHER WAY. FOR THE SAKE OF OBJECTIVITY AND TRUTH, PLEASE INCLUDE CONSIDERATIONS OF DOUBTS ABOUT THE OFFICIAL STORY AND LINKS TO SITES FEATURING THE AMAZING AMOUNT OF INFORMATION COUNTERING IT. WE CANNOT KEEP PROPAGATING THE SAME FALSE INFORMATION, IF WE WANT TO BE HONEST WITH OURSELVES AND THE WORLD.

THANK YOU.

--end of unsigned comment. --Tbeatty 17:15, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

• so, you took a random bit of vandalism to the article and reposted it here because.....? you're trolling?--64.12.117.13 21:04, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree 110%

fyi, Bush was talking about fighting for freedom, Iraq, and terrorism in many speeches before 9/11. In fact, he talked about all three right next too each other in two speeches during his first two months in office, Jan & Feb. This was not a war conducted because of 9/11 alone and it was pre-developed, as any analyse would conclude. 9/11 did help foster resentment towards Iraq in the way Bush inaccurately phrased his speeches

References not referenced

Can anyone shed some light on why the sources listed in the "References" section don't appear to actually be referenced in the article? To me, the "Notes" section and some of the items under the "Links" section appear to be the actual references. Am I mistaken in this perception? I'd like to:

1. Rename the "Links" section to "References"
2. Merge some of the sources in "Links" into the new "References" section
3. Change some of the inline links to ref tags
4. Do something with the current "References" section (perhaps relabel to "Further Reading" or something similar if they're not actual references for this article or delete it altogether).

Thoughts? Comments? I'll leave this out there for a few days before making any changes as this is obviously a high-traffic, controversial article. I'm bold but not stupid. :) --ElKevbo 22:16, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I didn't receive any comments (or objections) so I've performed the proposed work. Specifically, I:

• Changed the inline links to ref tags
• Changed the old "References" section to "Further information"
• Changed the old "Notes" section to "References"
• Moved the content of the "Links" subsection of "Further information" to the "External links" section

There is still some minor work to be done:

1. The citation formats are inconsistent.
2. The inline citations are also inconsistent in that some are placed at the end of the sentence (correctly) and many are placed after the end of the sentence (i.e. after the ending punctuation mark, typically a period).

--ElKevbo 22:23, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Can you point to where it says that refs should be before the period? Earlier this year we had a discussion about this at a featured article candidate, and none of us could find a proper policy page regarding this. By the way, you realize that refnames aren't required and that <ref>s will suffice? The only reason a refname would be used is if the ref were used several times. Good work, though. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 22:27, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

No, I've never found a reference in Misplaced Pages about exactly where the inline reference should fall. I know in many other styleguides the end- or footnote must be placed in the sentence before the final punctuation mark. Quite frankly, I don't care too much and in the absence of guiding authority just want them to be consistent within an article (similar to how we handle British vs. American spelling and grammar). And I know about the refname thing - that's my (tiny, barely worth-mentioning) programming experience coming out. It's easy to make such changes en mass and may prove useful later on. What I didn't know about and learned as I went through was the "template" for citing news sources. I like Misplaced Pages but it is very frustrating trying to find information *about* Misplaced Pages and how to efficiently edit it. So I guess I'm learning through experience! --ElKevbo 22:35, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply! Most of the refs should have the reference after the period, because when I first added all the cite.php tags, I added all to the end of the sentence, after the punctuation mark. Given, they may have been changed since then and new refs and external links added, but most of them should still be like that. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 23:03, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

P.S. I'll go ahead and standardize them all like that (after the full stop), if no one objects. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 23:04, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Unprotected

I have unprotected semiprotection. I will monitor and will reprotect after six hours or if vandalism gets out of control.--MONGO 05:06, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Looking at the page history since unprotection, I am inclined to believe that every single edit has been vandalism or the reversion of vandalism. --tomf688 19:23, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I've restored semiprotection. As noted by the semiprotection policy, it isn't supposed to be a permanent feature, but with over 50 vandalisms in about 14 hours, and almost nothing constructive done to the article otherwise, we expend more energy fighting the vandals than we do making the article better. I'm inclined to keep semiprotection in place for the forseeable future, but we should occasonally remove the semiprotection every now and then to be complient with the policy.--MONGO 19:50, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for messing up. I just wanted to see if protection worked. By the time I reverted myself, I was already reverted. AshishG 00:13, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

edits

I made some edits tonight. Please comment here if you take exception to them. Merecat 05:34, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't like the adding of "fact" all over the place. The rest seems fine. I would prefer discussion of these points here rather than a fact tag scattered about.--MONGO 08:46, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback. As you know, "fact" tags add a "citation needed" link when placed into an article. Suffice it to say, there is nothing wrong with fact tags and frankly, if you don't like them, perhaps you could help dig up some citations for the tagged assertions. I've tagged only those points that appear to warrant it. Merecat 19:29, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I would prefer you find the facts instead of adding fact tags all over the place. Normally, we discuss the issues here and then add a citation. You stated that we are to comment if we take exception to them and so I commented.--MONGO 06:49, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Afghanistan

If you look at the Afghanistan section you'll note that the nation was entered with "some" international support. I looked it up but could not find any specifics. Does anyone have any specifics (number of nations, the UN's position, and/or NATO's position) on this support so we can be more specific than just "some." Thank you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.167.200.77 (talk • contribs)

United States, the United Kingdom, Germany, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand..and I think there were others. Please sign your posts.--MONGO 08:59, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

The other big one was France, with ~4000 troops. see U.S._invasion_of_Afghanistan for a full list. Derex 06:49, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I forgot about that...they had a large representation there. Interestingly, New Zealand, Germany and France all stayed out of the Iraq situation...as most of the citizens of those countries overwhelmingly opposed that action.--MONGO 06:56, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Bush authorized Cheney to release NIE information

This is two days old and I haven't seen it mentioned in the article. Bush has no denied it. It should be mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.210.83.146 (talk • contribs)

I object to the above unsigned comment. All the news reports have been consistant: 1) There is no mention in any court document of any Bush or Cheney directive to release Plame's indentity and 2) what was released was part of a National Intelligence Estimate (NIE). This document was released only in part and pertained only to the specifics of the Wilson OpEd piece. Also, because this was an authorized release and because it's fully legal for the president to de-clasify information, this is not a "leak". And it's certainly not a "leak" of classified information. The information which was released, was authorized for release and was declassified by VP directive, per the ok of Bush. The power used to do this stems from a Presidential Executive Order from 1995 by Clinton, and updated more recently by Bush. Calling this authorized release a "leak" is POV and false. Merecat 02:51, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

The testimony, cited in a court filing by the government late Wednesday, provides the first indication that Mr. Bush, who has long assailed leaks of classified information as a national security threat, played a direct role in the disclosure of the intelligence report on Iraq at a moment that the White House was trying to defend itself against charges that it had inflated the case against Saddam Hussein," says the New York Times . "If Mr. Libby's account is accurate, it also involves Mr. Bush directly in the swirl of events surrounding the disclosure of the identity of an undercover C.I.A. officer."

Los Angeles Times : "Experts in national security law say a decision by President Bush to authorize the leak of classified information to a reporter probably would not be illegal. "But if Bush did so -- as a former top White House aide has testified he did -- there could be significant damage to the credibility of a president who has repeatedly and publicly expressed his abhorrence of leaks. . . . "But the experts also said that if the testimony of I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby was true, Bush's actions violated a traditional unwritten understanding that any declassification decision would be made in close consultation with intelligence officials."

Boston Globe : "The possibility that Bush authorized a selective leak to a single correspondent suggests a desire to shape the news to the administration's ends -- a possible misuse of the president's national security powers. . . . "Such tactics are hardly unusual in politics, but would seem to damage the credibility of a president who has built a reputation for forthrightness, and who has gone further than previous presidents both in keeping information secret and in launching Justice Department investigations of alleged leakers."

Chicago Tribune : "It was Bush himself, answering a reporter's question in Chicago after speaking with business leaders at the University of Chicago, on Sept. 30, 2003, who said: 'Listen, I know of nobody -- I don't know of anybody in my administration who leaked classified information. If somebody did leak classified information, I'd like to know it, and we'll take the appropriate action. And this investigation is a good thing. 'Leaks of classified information are a bad thing,' Bush said then. 'And we've had them -- there's too much leaking in Washington. That's just the way it is. And we've had leaks out of the administrative branch, had leaks out of the legislative branch, and out of the executive branch and the legislative branch, and I've spoken out consistently against them and I want to know who the leakers are.'

POV? Perhaps. But it's definitely the prevailing POV. Even the administration itself now no longer denies the leak - and it's in Libby's testimony - but as of yet, there hasn't been any corroborating proof, other than a lack of denials from the White House and claims that such a disclosure is within Presidential authority. It appears most likely that the question isn't 'did Bush authorize the leak' (he clearly did) - the salient question is, 'why?' It is widely suspected the leak of Plame's identity to the press by Libby was for political reasons, intending to undermine Joseph Wilson for his op-ed criticizing the Niger claims. And if so, that's not a valid reason for declassification of material - to say nothing of lying to the American people about having no idea who the leakers were and falsely promising to 'take care of' whomever was responsible:

There are anonymous reports all the time in the media. The President has set high standards, the highest of standards, for people in his administration. He's made it very clear to people in his administration that he expects them to adhere to the highest standards of conduct. If anyone in this administration was involved in it, they would no longer be in this administration . . . I've made it clear that there's been nothing, absolutely nothing brought to our attention to suggest any White House involvement, and that includes the Vice President's office as well. When I'm talking about the White House, I'm talking about the Vice President's office as well. -- Scott McClellan, September 29, 2003

A treatment of this topic should, and ultimately will, be added to this bio in an informative and balanced way. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:13, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

That would be a first for this page. I anxiously await it.--Tbeatty 03:54, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I imagine that some of the good faith editors on this article of all political stripes would see that as an insult. Not being among this article's most active editors, I'll just consider it hyperbole. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:58, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually I don't think any of the good faith editors would take it as in insult at all. It certainly wasn't meant to insult any of the good faith editors.--Tbeatty 04:52, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

'first for this page' - meaning this page has had no good faith editors, then? You may just want to stop lobbing meaningless insults. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 04:56, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and it detracts from the need for it to be in the article. The usual tug and war on how to spin it will no doubt lead to temporary extremes, such as calling Bush's tax bills "large tax cuts" without any qualification, as if it came straight from a Karl Rove approved press release accompanied by Fox News pom poms.--Pro-Lick 05:15, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh please. I think it's obvious from the revert history and edits that topics have notorious history of not being introduced in an informative and balanced way. That says nothing about the editors. Relax.--Tbeatty 05:23, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Seriously, if you want to increase the cooperation on the page and not perpetuate the 'notorious history' you seem to describe despairingly, you may want to try to be civil and avoid insulting your fellow editors. I said what I said because I also want fairness and a focus on fact, rather than attack or defense politics. If you do indeed await a better culture on this page, rigorously assuming good faith of your fellow editors and rigorously being worthy of it is the way to stop the cycle. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:39, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not considered good faith to alter your words on the talk page in a way that changes the meaning of what was said. If you want to clarify it after edits, add another line. --Tbeatty 15:38, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

That is the meaning I intended, and it isn't changed by my clarification. If your comments are now inappropriate, it is because you sought to insult or attack me personally - which is the worst of bad faith. Would you like to return to the topics involved in the article, and not on personal attacks? -- User:RyanFreisling @ 15:42, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

No, my comments are still appropriate. There was no personal attack. It is extrememly bad form, for whatever reason, to change previous comments. Regardless of your intentions. --Tbeatty 15:48, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

In this instance, having adding one word to clarify my comments (especially in this case, where adding the word 'ultimately' reduces the likelihood of a misperception of antagonism by making clear that I am not 'threatening' to add the content) is hardly 'extremely bad form'. To quote you from a previous post, 'Relax'. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 15:51, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

It is extrememly bad form, for whatever reason, to change previous comments. Regardless of your intentions.--Tbeatty 16:00, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate the admonition. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 16:02, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Have good faith that the faith based in other edtors is good.--Pro-Lick 06:00, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

By all means attack the guy a few dozen more times in your righteously indignant defense of good faith. But I think we've all seen enough of your pov-pushing to not need to make any more assumptions regarding faith either way. I don't even have to read your latest essay to know it consists of the application of polemic and criticism of your latest republican target in a polemic and critical manner. You think calling someone a lying son of a bitch using polite words is "neutral". 69.105.139.103 07:58, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

(good or bad) form: : Manners or conduct as governed by etiquette, decorum, or custom. : The phrases are further used colloquially in description of conduct or manners in society; as, it is not good form to smoke in the presence of a lady.

Ryan's manners and conduct have been governed by etiquette, decorum, and custom. It is good form to be as clear as possible, to assume good faith, to be civil, and to work to diminsh potentential antagonism. (regardless of one's relative success) Kevin Baas 16:48, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

...but not balance nor neutrality. Are you completely missing the point or just reflecting on how nice civil pov-pushing can be? One does not need to assume good faith ad infintum when presented with a mountain of evidence to the contrary. 69.105.138.104 20:12, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Please help me understand the difference between 'presenting evidence to back up the known facts' and 'pov-pushing'. I would suggest the difference is whether or not one is rigid about the accuracy of one's information. In my case, I've provided evidence for whatever edits I've sought to make, respected consensus, and have done so in good faith. If you've got a problem with my conduct on a specific topic, I suggest you seek mediation or if you have more general concern, perhaps an RfC is in order. I would welcome any constructive input towards making me a better editor here on Misplaced Pages. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 20:20, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

(resolving edit conflict) One certainly doesn't "need" to assume good faith when presented with a mountain of evidence to the contrary, anymore than one "needs" to do anything. However, there are those of us who have been known to do just that, and I would like myself to be considered to be such a person. You bring up the question of "evidence" in relation to faith (good or bad). This is exactly why one assumes good faith even when it goes against one's emotions. It is neccessary to candidly weigh the evidence. If one consistently has "bad faith" whereas certain sides of an issue and/or people are involved, and "good" or "blind" faith on the other side, that is a form of systematic bias, in which one cannot accurately assess the preponderance of evidence. Therefore, one does at least "need" to assume good faith in order to approach balance and neutrality. That is, balance and neutrality presumes an assumption of good faith. Assuming good faith is prior to balance and neutrality, which can only be achieved by way of such mechanisms. Kevin Baas 20:26, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Title updated as per . -- User:RyanFreisling @ 04:42, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Please try reading your own links "Fitzgerald did not say in the filing that Cheney authorized Libby to leak Plame's identity, and Bush is not accused of doing anything illegal." and "Because Bush declassified the intelligence document, the White House does not view Libby's conversations about it as a leak." Next time, read your own citations, ok? Merecat 04:58, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

It's incomplete for you not to finish that quote - so I'll finish it for you... "But that determination is difficult to make without knowing precisely when Bush decided to declassify the information." I did read the article - it accurately describes why the White House has said they believe Bush's authorization wasn't a leak. However, most media outlets and most Americans aren't buying it. In any case, your cite doesn't disprove my edit. In addition, next time I suggest you look closely at the timeline to determine whether the White House's claim has any merit before believing it wholesale. As the article states, It is not known when the conversation between Bush and Cheney took place. The White House has declined to provide the date when the president used his authority to declassify the portions of the October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate. In addition, the statute involved clearly states that declassification to avoid political embarrassment is not a valid rationale for declassification. Questioning our leadership is the American way. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:11, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, but POV edits are not the Wiki way. The known court documents so far do not accuse Bush of authorizing the release of Plame's name. In light of that, it's POV for us to side with those who do accuse Bush of that. Remember, our citations must be to reliable sources WP:CITE. Partisan opinion and media speculation are not as reliable as actual court documents. "Fitzgerald did not say in the filing that Cheney authorized Libby to leak Plame's identity, and Bush is not accused of doing anything illegal." Merecat 05:19, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome to argue against what I'm not arguing, but you won't get the satisfaction of my rebuttal. Except to say that your attribution of POV is incorrect because no one is 'siding' with anyone. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:25, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Without the word "allegedly" in the section title, the section title presumes that the accusation is accurate. This presumption sides with those who accuse Bush of this. Your edit deleted "allegedly", therefore your edit sided with those who accuse Bush. Whether you side with them or not, your edit did. Merecat 05:29, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it's quite factual that Plame's identity was part of the information that was disclosed by Libby to Miller and Cooper. Do you have proof it was not? Fitzgerald's latest brief reads: "the presentation and analysis of facts relating to the leak of Ms. Wilson’s name and employment are closely intertwined. "

Also this section, which reads:

'Defendant understood that the Vice President specifically selected him to talk to the press about the NIE and Mr. Wilson on July 12, 2003 {...} During his conversations with the press that day, defendant discussed Ms. Wilson’s CIA employment with both Matthew Cooper (for the first time) and Judith Miller (for the third time).'

It would seem Fitzgerald disagrees with you, and believes Ms. Wilson's name was among the information leaked by Libby.

While it's clear that the President and Vice President authorized the leak of the NIE information and information about Joe Wilson, the question of whether leaking Plame's name and identity was also specifically authorized by the President and Vice President remains open. For example, another AP article reads:

Q. What did the president and vice president direct Libby to leak?

A. A portion of a classified prewar document in which U.S. intelligence agencies declared Iraq was "vigorously trying to procure" uranium. Libby's leaks were the beginning of an emerging White House strategy: Blame the CIA for providing the White House with a faulty premise for going to war.

Q. If Libby was directed by Bush and Cheney to leak information from a classified National Intelligence Estimate, why did he allegedly leak information about Plame's CIA identity as well? Did he do so with or without direction from his superiors?

A. No one in a position to know has offered answers.

Not picking sides, just finding facts. As far as a possible motive for Libby to leak Plame's identity and authorization, we need look no further than Fitzgerald himself:

At some point after the publication of the July 6, 2003 Op Ed by Mr. Wilson, Vice President Cheney, defendant’s immediate superior, expressed concerns to defendant regarding whether Mr. Wilson’s trip was legitimate or whether it was in effect a junket set up by Mr. Wilson’s wife.

Disclosing the belief that Mr. Wilson’s wife sent him on the Niger trip was one way for defendant to contradict the assertion that the Vice President had done so, while at the same time undercutting Mr. Wilson’s credibility if Mr. Wilson were perceived to have received the assignment on account of nepotism. (the April 5 filing)Á -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:32, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Whether or not Libby disclosed Plame's name, is irrelevant to the above discussion about section title. That discusion focuses on whether or not Bush authorized that particular aspect of Libby's (alleged) disclosure. Libby was authorized to reveal parts of an NIE, but even Fitzgerald has not said that Bush authorized the release of the NIE portion which contained Plame's name. Please read the Yahoo link again. Merecat 06:27, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I've read it and many others and my comments and edits stand. Please read the (talk page section) title again. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:40, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

According to the Washington Post Sunday, April 9, 2006; Page B06 , my assertions as per above, are correct. Merecat 04:05, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

You do realize that's an editorial, not a news piece, correct? In the same issue, on Page 1, is an actual news piece (not just an editorial by Mr. Hiatt) called A Concerted Effort to Discredit Bush Critic that states (not just argues):

Special Counsel Patrick J. Fitzgerald for the first time described a "concerted action" by "multiple people in the White House" -- using classified information -- to "discredit, punish or seek revenge against" a critic of President Bush's war in Iraq. Bluntly and repeatedly, Fitzgerald placed Cheney at the center of that campaign. {...} Fitzgerald fingered Cheney as the first to voice a line of attack that at least three White House officials would soon deploy against former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV. {...} One striking feature of that decision -- unremarked until now, in part because Fitzgerald did not mention it -- is that the evidence Cheney and Libby selected to share with reporters had been disproved months before. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 04:08, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Categorization

I noticed this article while browsing Category:Petroleum; it seems out of place there. On the other hand, this article has lots of categories. Too many, if you ask me.

• Proposal: certain categories should be moved to the appropriate subarticles.

Here's a sample distribution:

• Early life of George W. Bush: Category:Phillips Academy alumni, Category:Harvard alumni, Category:Yale alumni, Category:Bonesmen, Category:Delta Kappa Epsilon brothers, Category:People from Connecticut, Category:1946 births
• Professional life of George W. Bush: Category:American chief executives, Category:Baseball executives, Category:Texas Rangers, Category:Petroleum
• George W. Bush substance abuse controversy: Category:Alcohol abuse
• George W. Bush's first term as President of the United States: Category:Time Magazine Person of the Year

Thoughts? Melchoir 07:26, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Operative / Agent / Employee

After 'agent' was changed to 'employee', I changed it to 'operative'. That is the actual word used by Novak in the actual public piece that started the leak scandal:

Wilson never worked for the CIA, but his wife, Valerie Plame, is an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction. Two senior administration officials told me Wilson's wife suggested sending him to Niger to investigate the Italian report. The CIA says its counter-proliferation officials selected Wilson and asked his wife to contact him. "I will not answer any question about my wife," Wilson told me. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 15:49, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

The intro is too long

I have added a tag to address this point. Merecat 02:40, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

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