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Section on Arab World

I edited the section to reflect the ideas mentioned in the source, which referred solely to Saudi Arabia. 92.97.70.215 (talk) 20:57, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Bollywood and Pakistanphobia

I am sure Indian media has played a part in the pakistaniphobia within modern India movies depicting Pakistanis as the enemy are many I think this should be mentioned 109.150.60.235 (talk) 23:24, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

WP:OR

This is WP:OR the source does not mention anti Pakistani sentiments. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:08, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Will check - too much of your reverts to catch up with since I came back. --lTopGunl (ping) 16:11, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
"The films chosen to be shown at the festival, being organised by the Johns Hopkins University’s Paul H Nitze School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS), all relate to Pakistan and, without exception, can be said to be hostile in content to Pakistan and Pakistanis." I think user darkness is going to far with his vandalism and must be stopped the sources clearly indicate what I have stated 109.150.60.235 (talk) 16:12, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
Or you could believe that I checked the source and found it lacking? Darkness Shines (talk) 16:15, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
You find anything not agreeing with your patriotic Indian views lacking your not having your way I assure you 109.150.60.235 (talk) 16:17, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Darkness Shines, the article in question does indeed discuss stereotypes in Bollywood percieved as hostile, or as the title aptly says, "anti-Pakistan films". You've got some explaining to do for your case here how the sourced content is otherwise WP:OR or "lacking". The source complies with WP:RS too so I don't see anything contentious as far as reliability is concerned. Mar4d (talk) 16:19, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
I read the article, it does not mention whatsoever about Anti-Pakistan sentiment. I am not Indian btw IP. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:26, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
If you've read the article, it's quite clearly mentioning the term "anti-Pakistan". Thus, the content qualifies and is largely relevant for addition into this article. Mar4d (talk) 16:37, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
No it does not. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:42, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
Mar4d, the removed sentence, as worded, does not comply with the source. The removed material is (very poorly )worded in such a blatantly inflammatory and POV style as to make one cringe before one has even read the source. Here's the removed material: "Indias large film industry has produced several anti-Pakistani films which depict Pakistanis or the Pakistani state as the enemy due to the far reaching impact of Indian cinema on Indian citizens and the box office success of anti-Pakistani films further fan and increase Pakistan-phobic attitudes within the nation at large." The source is a Pakistani newspapaper article from 2004 discussing an Indian film festival to be held in Washington, D.C. The journalist's opinion is stated in this paragraph: "The films chosen to be shown at the festival, being organised by the Johns Hopkins University’s Paul H Nitze School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS), all relate to Pakistan and, without exception, can be said to be hostile in content to Pakistan and Pakistanis. The country is depicted as a hotbed of terrorism and intolerant proselytising Islam which has pitted itself against a secular, porogressive and democratic India." Even if we accept what is arguably an opinion from a possibly biased source, it doesn't support the material the IP put in the article.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:00, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
That's why I reworded it precisely according to the source, if you had time to notice. I also find it hard to believe your assertion that a reputable English-language source like Daily Times (Pakistan) is biased. Mar4d (talk) 17:05, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
Indian sources have been used by the hundreds on Indophobia article so any Pakistan sources used are neutral and good sources of information if not all Indian sources should be removed that is only fair 109.150.60.235 (talk) 17:09, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
Mar4d, I didn't say the paper was biased; I said it was "possibly biased", which in this context isn't a big stretch. In any event, I think between the three of us (including TopGun), we came up with a wording for the article that is reasonable and source-compliant.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:07, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
I think it is good now. But it is obvious that there are many more RS out there for the same and those should be added (in a neutral tone). This is one of the major reasons. Every one here should also read WP:NEWSORG. Reports by newspapers are taken as facts and attributed if they attribute it to someone. Further NPOV is managed by comparing the RS with eachother and since there was no refutation.. we should take that into consideration. --lTopGunl (ping) 18:13, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Failed verification

Neither source says the term originated in the UK Darkness Shines (talk) 13:09, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Now self revert:
The origins of the P-word, as its known in polite society, are far more recent than its black equivalent, which dates back to the 16th Century. Its first recorded use was in 1964, when hostility in Britain to immigration from its former colonies in the Asian sub-continent, was beginning to find a voice.
The dictionary backs up the word's defination and the article very clearly says what you 'failed' to find. --lTopGunl (talk) 13:12, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
Were there does it say the term originated in the UK? There is a world of difference between first recorded use and origin. And please note, it does not say first recorded use was in the UK. Darkness Shines (talk) 13:20, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
How much more clear does it have to be? It is clearly mentioning the origin and giving a reference to the first recorded use. A serious question, are you that naive or purposely trolling? --lTopGunl (talk) 13:23, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
No, it does not. Please seek a third opinion or ask at the reliable sources notice board. Note, the dictionary definition does not support the edit either. Assuming you used Merriam Websters. Darkness Shines (talk) 13:33, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
I've given you a quotation above. You are out-rightly denying it. And good luck proving BBC non RS at RSN if you want that. You also have a very recent editwar history on this article. --lTopGunl (talk) 13:36, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
Were in the quote does it say the term originated in the UK? Darkness Shines (talk) 13:43, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

If it is so hard for you to read from even the trimmed quote... Starting with, "The origins of the P-word" and referring to "Its first recorded use was in 1964, when hostility in Britain" and the first recorded use can directly be taken as origin as well per your pet policy of verifiability. --lTopGunl (talk) 13:48, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

You are engaging in WP:OR Two sentences, first says "Paki" is newer than "Nigger" that is all it says. The second says the first recorded use was in the UK. The source does not say the term originated in the UK at all. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:00, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
That's because you just dissected the prose. It is a single sentence in a flow and refers clearly to it and further clearly says that the first recorded use was there. And what ever way you take it, Misplaced Pages does not consider what is true or was the real origin in this case, it will take the first recorded use as the origin. Get it now? There's just evidence building up against you for 3 edit wars yesterday, removing citations at Taliban article after consensus was established and now wasting time here. --lTopGunl (talk) 14:05, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
Adding a second opinion, as per language of the BBC article, I think it means what TopGun has added. Is there another interpretation likely of the BBC prose? I think not. BTW a tip - do keep in mind at all times the need to avoid close paraphrasing. Not that it has happened here, but often attempting to avoid close paraphrasing creates a slight change in meaning. AshLin (talk) 14:21, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
That might have been DS's aim which would still be incorrect and POV. This was just not wanting to listen. --lTopGunl (talk) 14:28, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
You are wrong, tagged as inaccurate. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:30, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
What dispute? The citation is now verified and tag removed by another editor as well... you are not respecting the consensus here. --lTopGunl (talk) 14:42, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
Lol, two editors do not make a consensus. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:46, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
The origin of a word and its first recorded use can be two separate issues. For example, read the BBC article this way: "The origins of the F-word, as its known in polite society, are far more recent than its C-word equivalent, which dates back to the ___th Century. Its first recorded use was in ______" Read like this, it would be understood that 'origin' and 'first recorded use' are very different, as we might have data on the first recorded use of the F-word, yet we may not know its precise origins, and the article itself does not say where/when the word originated. This Misplaced Pages article should reflect what the source says, which is that the first recorded use was in the UK. As it stands, the Wiki article says that the term originated in the UK, which the BBC article does not say. The M. Webster definition that I've look at also says 'first recorded use' rather than origin. To clarify how important that is, see: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fuck which includes both an 'origin' and 'first recorded use', both being distinct from each other.65.0.158.161 (talk) 16:58, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
For further clarification, see how this issue is handled @ http://en.wikipedia.org/Okay and http://en.wikipedia.org/Welsh_rarebit. Origin and first recorded use are treated as separate. 65.0.158.161 (talk) 17:07, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
As I cannot edit the article myself, someone should be prepared to correct, add an addition reliable source, or remove the statement in question. Reason: Neither current sources say where the term originated; rather, both say that the first recorded use was in Britain. If there is a dispute about what the BBC article actually means, then an additional RS should be included to confirm the meaning. Otherwise, edit the article to reflect what the sources say, because as it stands, it constitutes OR. At the very least, it should be flagged as OR in a timely manner until someone can properly edit it. 65.0.149.160 (talk) 00:34, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
Currently nobody can edit this article, you need to use the {{editprotect}} template to get an admin to do it. Darkness Shines (talk) 00:45, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
Oops. Oh well. The request edit page says the protection expires in 2 days, unless I read it wrong. Will wait until then. 65.0.149.160 (talk) 01:00, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Please form a consensus here before editing this regardless of the protection. --lTopGunl (talk) 01:05, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Consensus is not needed to remove OR. If you feel the BBC source does say that the term originated in Britain, then feel free to add an additional source confirming this so there can be no dispute about the meaning. The dictionary source does not say this, as that particular dictionary separates 'origin' and 'first recorded use' generally and specifically with this term. I've went through several dictionaries now, and it varies from origin unknown to plain not listing origin at all. Not a single case of 'Origin: Britain'. However, almost all the dictionaries, with few exceptions, list the first recorded use, and always in Britain. As I mentioned above, if another RS can back up the origin issue, then fine. If not, the OR must be removed. 65.0.149.160 (talk) 01:23, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
What you think is OR is disputed by two editors above, so this does not make it a simple remove the OR question. See the reasons above. --lTopGunl (talk) 01:39, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
Again, you (or anyone else) are free to add an additional RS to confirm the meaning of the BBC article. I won't willy-nilly edit the page the moment it becomes unprotected, but within a reasonable amount of time the statement should be edited to reflect what both sources currently say, unless an additional RS (as the meaning seems to be in dispute) is added. When what a source says is disputed, it is generally good form to add an additional RS to confirm it. I am certainly open to an opposing view, but I don't see an issue with simply rewording the statement to something along the lines of "Its first recorded use was..." After all, you seem to suggest that 'origin' and 'first recorded use' are interchangeable, while I am saying they are not interchangeable. If you are correct, there is no harm done in editing it. Cheers. EDIT: I forgot to mention, the BBC article is an editorial, and the Wiki manual states that when an editorial is used as a source, and dispute arises about it, it is proper to add an additional source. Cheers. 65.0.149.160 (talk)

Pakistans right to exist and India

I was wondering if this could be a significant cause of Pakistanphobia within India as denial/opposition of Pakistans creation can surely be a cause for some of the Phobias within India there are several sources backing up the fact that India did not want Pakistan's creation.

the sources are a good mix of Indian, Non-South Asian and Pakistani:

^ a b Choudhary Rahmat Ali, (1933), Now or Never; Are We to Live or Perish Forever?, pamphlet, published 28 January ^ a b Jasjit Singh, Kargil 1999: Pakistan's fourth war for Kashmir , Knowledge World, 1999, ISBN 8186019227, 9788186019221, "... India accepted the establishment of Pakistan as a sovereign state, but rejects the two-nation ideology that drives it ..." ^ Lawrence Kaelter Rosinger, The state of Asia: a contemporary survey , Ayer Publishing, 1971, ISBN 0836920694, 9780836920697, "... The Congress welcomed the creation of a politically independent India, and accepted partition as a necessary evil in achieving this main goal ..." ^ Ambedkar, Bhimrao Ramji (1945). Pakistan or the Partition of India . Mumbai: Thackers. ^ Christophe Jaffrelot (2004). A history of Pakistan and its origins . Anthem Press. pp. 114–. ISBN 9781843311492. Retrieved 21 February 2011. ^ "Letters and Bombs by Amitava Kumar" . Politicsandculture.org. 2010-08-10. Retrieved 2012-01-21 86.176.200.54 (talk) 09:20, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, this is the primary article for that content. Better add the applicable sources to that article as well when it gets unprotected. --lTopGunl (talk) 07:04, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Deadlinks

I have had to remove a great deal of WP:OR from the article, along with highly contentious unsourced claims and claims to dead links. I searched for information on content cited to dead links and was unable to find any. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:15, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Do not remove sources from the article simply because you can not find the online source. See WP:SOURCEACCESS. Offline content is just as notable as online. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:15, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
I will remove it per WP:V, I do actually look for new sources you know, I could not find any. Which leads me to think they were fake to begin with. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:27, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
The content you removed was properly cited. Many instances had properly dated citations with full information. This is in no way a BLP issue. Examples:
  • Pakistan is an evil empire and threat to Israel: Israeli FM, Dawn newspaper, 22 Apr, 2009.
  • Indian foreign policy: challenges and opportunities by Atish Sinha, Madhup Mohta, Academic Foundation, 2007, p 332.
  • The Jewish general who beat Pakistan, Haartz, 06.09.04
  • new friends? By Aamer Ahmed Khan, BBC News, 1 September 2005
All this is fully cited content and its removal should be justified. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:32, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
You need to self revert the sourced part. I've reported at WP:BLPN to be checked... We can follow up to the deadlink without date after this. --lTopGunl (talk) 18:00, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
I will self revert nothing, anything you want put back you can discuss first. As I posted above, I removed WP:OR and unsourced content. Which part do you wish to discuss first? Darkness Shines (talk) 18:08, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Look at the sources above. That is sourced content. --lTopGunl (talk) 18:16, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Let me say this slowly and clearly so you understand me. You will not add any content to this article unless you discuss it first. You are quite welcome to discuss here the content I removed one section or one line at a time, when I believe it is no longer WP:OR you may reinsert it. The article still has WP:OR in it, once this discussion is concluded we4 will begin on that. Do you under stand me? Darkness Shines (talk) 18:28, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
If you spent the same amount of time on discussing the content instead of being uncivil towards other editors this could have already been solved. Nothing is going to happen as you like. Look at the sources above and specify if you think there are any issues with them. Other wise there's no point in removing them. --lTopGunl (talk) 18:37, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

(od)You do not get it do you? This will happen as I like, as it does not matter if the sources are reliable. What matters is that they do not support the content. Now you can begin discussing the content you wish to return to the article or not, your choice. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:44, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

And how do you tell the sources do not support the content? Because you don't find other sources for it? This is just WP:IDONTLIKEIT. --lTopGunl (talk) 18:50, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Your refusal to discuss the content is quite telling. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:52, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Refusal? I'm repeatedly asking you to specify which you are not and now you blame me with refusal? I'll rather discuss this on WP:BLPN. --lTopGunl (talk) 18:56, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

TG I have told you time and again it is all WP:OR. The only way you can reinsert that content is through discussion. You may begin whenever you are ready. Darkness Shines (talk) 20:16, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Darknesshines POV

I came across this users edits on the Indo-Pak war of 1971 and have noticed that you seem to think your an authority by making unilateral decisions by blanking sourced information I assure you I will not be bullied by your aggressive reversions and you do not scare me with ANI threats either MarcusMaximus0 (talk) 17:37, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

See my comment above. He's making false BLP claims over sourced content. There's no BLP here hence no BLP exemption. DS is editwarring. MarcusMaximus0, I suggest you do not do the same. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:44, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Saudi Arabia

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please remove the section Saudi Arabia. It is sourced entirely to an opinion piece.Finally tracked down on archive.org Darkness Shines (talk) 15:54, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Disagree. This is a news story. Even if taken as an opinion piece, those of news reporters are taken as reliable and reflect a significant view point. The source has complete bibliographical information. --lTopGunl (talk) 16:07, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
To further add, this article was protected because of this user's section blanking. --lTopGunl (talk) 16:10, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
No, it is an opinion piece by a non notable person, opinions cannot be used to support statements of fact. And the article is protected due to you and a sock reverting in BLP violations. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:11, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Sourced content is not a BLP vio. Neither was the information negative about a living person. That was your pretext for 3RR exemption. As far as the content is concerned.. it is published as a news story. I don't think all news reporters need to prove their own notability to publish in reliable sources. --lTopGunl (talk) 16:16, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
No it is an opinion piece, it may not be used for statements of fact. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:22, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
BTW the author of the piece is a teacher, not a reporter. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:23, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
The story is published as news. That makes it a news story. I think we can let the reader decide whether to believe it or not after following the reference. There's no basis for the removal. --lTopGunl (talk) 16:27, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
How do you know if it is published as news? It no longer exists on the Arab News site. Only wayback has an archive, and there is no way to see if it is a news story or an op-ed or a letter to the editor. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:31, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
That is because the citation has complete information needed for verification. The news source has editorial insight which is needed for a WP:RS and is a main stream media source. --lTopGunl (talk) 16:37, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
You cite WP:NEWSORG which says Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces are reliable for attributed statements as to the opinion of the author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact. Your cite WP:RS. That has nothing to do with the fact that an opinion piece from a non notable person can be used to make statements of fact. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:43, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

And what an adequate solution you've given for the attribution.... blank the section? --lTopGunl (talk) 16:47, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, as the persons opinion is not notable. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:56, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Everyone has an opinion. Just because this woman got hers published doesn't mean it belongs in Misplaced Pages. Due weight in fact specifically requires that more than one person hold an opinion before there's even an argument to include it. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:22, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
That means I'll have to find another reference to add along? I can do that. --lTopGunl (talk) 01:55, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
The more the better. Ideally, the sources, if opinion pieces, are signed by the newspaper itself or a notable individual. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:56, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Content

In Saudi Arabia, young Saudis have behaved in a racist and violent manner toward South Asians like Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Phillipinos, Indonesians, Africans and other foreigners. The youth have engaged in violent attacks on South Asian workers.

  1. Abdullah Al-Mutairi (Monday 27 March 2006). "Why Is There So Much Hate Inside Us?". Al-Watan. Retrieved 7 January 2011. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

Hong kong

from Pakistanis in Hong Kong might help in adding some information here. --lTopGunl (talk) 10:44, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Israel

Rephrase (if required) and add back according to sources. . --lTopGunl (talk) 10:48, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Difficult as the source either do not exist or are misrepresented. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:49, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Afghanistan

I can find no other source which discusses this, it is not on wayback, no hits on Gnews nor on Gbooks. I have removed it as unverifiable content attributed to a BLP. Darkness Shines (talk) 22:16, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

The source information is complete. Verifiability does not mean the source should be online. Go check from a library or something if you need to verify so bad. --lTopGunl (talk) 22:26, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
To add you are now on 3RR. --lTopGunl (talk) 22:36, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
(ec)Erm no. It was sourced to a TV show. Something called geo.tv. I looked on Gnews and Gbooks for verification that this was said, now given it was supposedly said only last year I find it a little suspicious that no other news agency picked up on such a controversial statement. Based on the massive misrepresentation of sources already found in this article I have little option but to believe it is a fake citation. Darkness Shines (talk) 22:36, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
Geo tv is a reliable and mainstream source. It is a part of Jang news group. You've repeatedly blanked this article. --lTopGunl (talk) 22:56, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
It does not matter if they are a mainstream source, the content cannot be verified as the article was online only and no longer exists, see my explanation above, I am not being unreasonable here. Explain why you reverted in unsourced content, a probable BLP vio and a lot of WP:OR When someone says probable BLP vio, you go to talk, not revert. Darkness Shines (talk) 23:08, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
You want me to assume good faith on your judgement about the BLP vio but you do not extend the same good faith to the person who added that reference in the first place. The content was sourced, source's information was complete and this can not be a BLP vio. You like removing content labeling it as BLP vio. You've done it previously as well by fully removing the section about Israel. Sources do not need to be online to be verified. And no, it was not an online only article. There are print versions of that source. --lTopGunl (talk) 23:13, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
Were? Get one, scan it and prove it. I am still of the opinion it was made up. Something that controversial would have made the news everywhere, yet no other source seems to exist but that one. Pull the other one. There has been massive OR and misrepresentation of sources in this article, so I will not AGF of any editor who added such content. Also, you never replied to my question. Darkness Shines (talk) 23:22, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Answer to your question, your blanking is reckless. I've no burden of providing you scanned/pirated copies of sources, and do not ask of such from me. A source needs to be fully titled and that it was along with publisher's name. There's no rule requiring it to be online. What you've done here can only be categorized in vandalism. So don't think I'll be assuming good faith on your part either. --lTopGunl (talk) 23:27, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

For a person who always says WP:NPA you seem to make them constantly. Remove your comment calling me a vandal please. I am acting in accordance with policy. Darkness Shines (talk) 23:40, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
No, this was unambiguous blanking. You are going exactly opposite of the policy by removing sourced content on the label of it being unsourced. --lTopGunl (talk) 23:43, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
The only part which was sourced was the probable BLP vio, the rest was not. Misrepresent the situation again and I will be most unhappy. Strike you accusations of vandalism or it will be I who goes running to Magog. Darkness Shines (talk) 23:51, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
Have fun doing that. I will be the last person to be making personal attacks. All editors in dispute with me or not are aware of that. This is no personal attack, it is what you have done to the article... reckless blanking. --lTopGunl (talk) 23:54, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Removing unsourced content, especially unsourced accusations of racism (whether the accusations be toward an individual or to a group), is never reckless. It's actually quite prudent. TopGun, if you are so sure the information removed was valid, then you must have read it somewhere. You can help this article by providing those sources. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:24, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

The source was there, it was just offline. There's no policy for sources to be online. I've not checked that source myself, but without verifying himself, DS didn't extend the same good faith to the adding editor that he wants me to assume for his judgement. He's currently made multiple edits that I dispute. But I'm tired of his stalking and editwars. --lTopGunl (talk) 01:30, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
There's no policy that says the source has to be online at all times, but it still has to exist. If the source is permanently inaccessible and no web archives exist (which would be easy to find, by the way, and I'm going to look now), then it is no longer reliable. An inescapable requirement of an RS is that it be possible to get a copy of. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:40, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
Just looked on the wayback machine and webcite - neither had a copy of this page. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:43, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
Do you mean print media is unreliable? I don't have any attachment to the source so I won't care much, but given removal from different sections and blanking content, I can not assume good faith on DS's judgement as well. --lTopGunl (talk) 01:44, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
You can go to a library to get a book. You can contact publishers for back-issues of newspapers, magazines, and journals. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:47, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
And after my verification another editor will come by saying I never did that or something? Since I'm assume the editor who added did check it. --lTopGunl (talk) 01:50, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Here is an extant source that says the same thing. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:55, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

(ec)I found the original ) However I do not think it cam be used. There is no way that quote is correct. Who in 2011 would say the Soviet Union and India have very good relations in Afghanistan When did the soviet union fall again? And the Soviets never had a good relationship in Afghanistan, I find it hard to believe anyone would actually say this. Darkness Shines (talk) 02:02, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
I guess this can be placed alongside that and the content added back then. DS's assumption turns out to be wrong to be using BLP as a pretext of editwar. He's done the same for another section on Israel (which he blanked). Now I doubt that one has similar case too. --lTopGunl (talk) 02:00, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
We have a quote which weighs in... your current opinion is OR. First you say it is not sourced and now dispute 'who would say that'. --lTopGunl (talk) 09:32, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
Yes, it was unsourced, but notice that unlike you I actually went looking for the source, so well done me. And yes, I do not see how that can be accurate, tell me, how long ago did the Soviet Union fall? And how good was their relationship in Afghanistan? Here is a Clue Darkness Shines (talk) 14:42, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
It was not unsourced, and now that the online sources are available your sudden change of stance from unsourced to the content dispute makes me doubt. And what is the contradiction in the clue. The article does say they have had good relations with India. The fall of Soviet Union being some time back in history doesn't change this statement either. This is quoted as is. Don't think your personal commentary on the issue will matter as the content is now sourced and online. --lTopGunl (talk) 14:51, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
Better to take it to the RSN or BLP board first, reliable sources can make mistakes you know. Your edit warring on unsourced POV WP:OR WP:Crap back into the article has not gone unnoticed BTW. Darkness Shines (talk) 15:01, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
You're past 3RR. Your last assumption of BLP for Israel section was proven incorrect at BLPN. I'll be checking that out and adding back soon. You are the one who started the edit war here and failed to discuss content right after protection expired. --lTopGunl (talk) 15:05, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
No actually, I am on 2rr, you however are on 3. You may need to look on the BLP board again, it was agreed that that statement needed more than one dead link as a source. Darkness Shines (talk) 15:11, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
Any addition regard less of content is considered editwar. That section was closed as not a BLP issue. Tell me when you are ready to discuss the content. --lTopGunl (talk) 15:15, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

(out) Look again. And if you add it back I will revert you, and then report you for it. Darkness Shines (talk) 15:23, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

"Folks, I'm really not seeing a BLP element in this dispute. You can continue this discussion on the article talk, or on the the neutrality noticeboard. There isn't much we can do for you. The Interior (Talk) 17:19, 1 February 2012 (UTC)" ...Get it now? I didn't say I won't be adding an inline citation. Don't think "confusing" is a BLP issue or was termed as such there. --lTopGunl (talk) 15:52, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
attributing a statement of any kind to a person needs a good source and inline citation Get it now? You will not find a source, I had already looked. Darkness Shines (talk) 15:57, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
Given the discussion above I doubt that too. But really don't know how "you will not find a source" helps the content discussion. --lTopGunl (talk) 16:06, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
TopGun, here's the transcript directly from the Carnegie Endowment's website. http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/1026carnegie-musharraf.pdf The quote is definitely authentic. It's on page 8. I just wanted to provide a second reliable source for the quote in case there's further disagreement about the sources on this issue. Certainly an inline citation was needed, but other than that, the information looks legit to me. On an unrelated note, I was the anon/IP in the failed verification discussion. Thanks to whoever cleaned the statements up. Take care. 98.95.118.106 (talk) 20:26, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Bangladesh

All unsourced and pure WP:OR. Also does pejorative and racist really need to be in the article twice? Darkness Shines (talk) 22:51, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Invalid Reference from Khaleej Times

This reference is WP:OR. The publisher "Khaleej Times" is suitable however the item is an op-ed by a non-notable author. The topic is not neutrally written or scholarly, lacks citations, is based on personal experience. It has already been contested on WP:OR but apparently edit-warring by the two concerned editors have put people off from commenting. This is the reason for my removal of the tainted "sourced" and a placement of a tag on the text. AshLin (talk) 12:57, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Pakophobia

The tag "not specific enough to verify" on this term should be self reverted because this is linked to the exact page. If you actually tried to follow the link, it would have taken you to page 40. You can put it in the template if you want. --lTopGunl (talk) 16:53, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Either cite your junk correctly or remove it, makes no difference to me. There are no such thing as "Pakophobia" BTW. Check the OED. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:59, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
I've provided a reliable source. The page number is already pointed to. You should self revert. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:04, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
You should take a hike. Your use of Op-Eds is not on, and you fucking well know it, it has been pointed out to you already on the RSN board. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:08, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Is this book op-ed? Really? --lTopGunl (talk) 17:17, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
I already discussed the book, fix it yourself. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:20, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
It doesn't need fixing. It is specific enough. Your tag is invalid. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:25, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Read WP:CITE, do you never tire of being wrong? Darkness Shines (talk) 17:28, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
It is not required per WP:CITE to clean up the formatting. That is a clean up issue. It is grossly misleading to say that it is not specific enough. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:35, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Read again, Citations for books typically include the name of the author(s), the title of the book (in italics), the volume if applicable, the city of publication (optional), the name of the publisher, the year of publication, and the ISBN number (optional), written using the syntax described at WP:ISBN. Inline citations should additionally give the relevant page number or range of page numbers. I am not going to do your fucking work for you if you insist on adding bullshit to articles, do it yourself. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:37, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Don't do it. All those details are specified in the link. Not a non specific source. Blatantly wrong tag. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:40, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Can anyone see that book in more than snippet view? I cannot, and if the same applies to everyone else then we cannot use it as a source. BTW, DS, I don't think all of the effing and blinding is going to help matters here. - Sitush (talk) 17:42, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Actually we can, per WP:SOURCEACCESS. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:43, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
No. We have no context for the statement in snippet view. It is not acceptable. I can only see three uses of the term at GBooks, which looks pretty poor to me. - Sitush (talk) 17:45, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Actually, sources don't have to be online at all for this purpose. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:47, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
(ec)Hey, Sitush, if TG was not block shopping for the second time today (on me once on an IP) then perhaps the cussing would not be so bad. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:46, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
That was nothing related to you.. but you had to poke around. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:47, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
If you (TG) can see it in a greater view then please could you transcribe/copy the relevant info (ie: a few paragraphs before and after the sentence). If you cannot and you inserted that statement then you really should remove it until you have better verification of the context. - Sitush (talk) 17:49, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
TG, I didn't say that sources had to be online. - Sitush (talk) 17:50, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
TopGun has now said that they only have a snippet view of the source in question - see User_talk:TopGun#Pakophobia. Until they or someone else does find more, the statement should be removed as being effectively a neologism. - Sitush (talk) 18:13, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I also said, difficult to access is not lack of verifiability and does not, by any means, decrease the credibility of the source. It actually needs to be accessed and verified and then discussed. Simply removing it is wrong. --lTopGunl (talk) 18:17, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

No it is not wrong to remove it. The burden is on you and you do not have the context, period. It can always be reinstated. I suggest that you do not wikilawyer over this. I'll see if there are any other problematic sources being used and list them here if indeed there are any. - Sitush (talk) 18:21, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
The letter to the newspaper is not great ("Pakistan-phobia... By Dr. Asad". PakTribune. 2011-12-20. Retrieved 2012-02-13.), and the other source for "Pakistan-phobia" does not actually used that term but rather "Pakistan phobia", which is potentially a different thing altogether. - Sitush (talk) 18:24, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
I had already pointed that out, but was reverted. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:26, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Here's a preview with context. I think this is enough as it directly uses the term in the context:
even though it was easy to fan Pakophobia under the circumstances.43 The Prime Minister of Pakistan, on the other hand, asserted that Nehru was not afraid of aggression from Pakistan, but was protesting against US aid for fear of..
--lTopGunl (talk) 18:27, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Not good enough, imo. Furthermore, I do not see where BBC News - Pakistan blocks BBC World News TV channel. refers to "Pakistani nationalists". - Sitush (talk) 18:28, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
It is establishing context of the term being used. There's no further preview available (or I didn't find it yet) - if you get the book you can verify it further. Don't know about the BBC source, you might have to ask Mar4d for that as he was once dealing with it, though I doubt even he added the words 'Pakistani nationalist'. Anyway, I also found a dictionary under this search, wont be needing a context there I guess. --lTopGunl (talk) 18:34, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
A neologism is nothing in this context. I cannot see the dictionary - what does it say? - Sitush (talk) 18:38, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Has anyone got access to p 169 of this? - Sitush (talk) 18:32, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Yes, what do you need to know? Darkness Shines (talk) 18:34, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
(ec)TG you do realize that dictionary you just linked to is from 1888? Darkness Shines (talk) 18:37, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Actually no. It says 2010 here. But anyway, I just mentioned it here to be counter checked.. didn't add it tot he article. It doesn't say 1888 . Where did you see that?!? --lTopGunl (talk) 18:50, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
It will be a reprint. It is available here. I am getting a little bit concerned about your sourcing! - Sitush (talk) 18:53, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
This was clearly not sourcing.. it was a suggestion. And it was actually not written on the version I provided... that's why I added it here. Also, don't assume the article is only written and sourced by me. Actually most of them were already there. --lTopGunl (talk) 21:33, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
I didn't say that you were a major contributor etc. - Sitush (talk) 21:48, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Does it adequately support the statement in the article (it is cited). - Sitush (talk) 18:37, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

What relevance does "Jaswant Singh, former Minister of Finance and key member of the BJP, published the Jinnah: India-Partition-Independence on 17 August 2009. Singh argued that it was Nehru, not Jinnah, whose centralized polity was responsible for the partition of India. He was later expelled from the primary membership of BJP as a result of the ensuing controversy. His book was later banned in Gujarat." have to anti-Pakistan sentiment? The row appeared to be in relation to Patel. - Sitush (talk) 18:37, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Re above, none. I had removed it as OR but was reverted. Re the book, yes in fact I added that content. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:40, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
  • This should be reinstated. I provided a book source for this. It would be counter productive of that effort, if only after I search that and then you think that it should have been mentioned at other places (which you could have actually said before too). That being said, the source clearly mentions this term. --lTopGunl (talk) 21:39, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
  • No. I have explained the reasons. You cannot coatrack a neologism, especially when it is only mentioned in passing, but you are welcome to find additional support that might make reinstatement worthwhile. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sitush (talk • contribs)
Adding this doesn't need tens of references as just the term was being backed. This was a reliable source with direct context. --lTopGunl (talk) 21:51, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
There is no context. Snippet view is never acceptable. For all you know, on the very sentence outside snippet view the guy might say that he has just made the term up. Unlikely, I admit, but not impossible. More importantly, you do not know how the writer intended the word to be understood. It would worry me if an experienced conributor was habitually using snippets. - Sitush (talk) 22:00, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
I disagree with that. The term was used in a sentence per se. Your assumptions are impossible in this case. Per common sense we actually can get what the writer intends (actually just that quote is needed along with the page number to verify content). This content was verified. There's no way it can be removed on that. And then you mentioning (after asking me to search and verify) that this doesn't account for it because you want a larger arbitrary number of references for it, is just as bad. You need to read WP:SOURCEACCESS. I don't need to present the whole book here to you to verify content (Even that quote was courtesy), all that is required is page number, book name, author etc. --lTopGunl (talk) 22:08, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
No. That would be akin to you using a fake reference and for that you could be called disruptive and end up in a lot of bother. If you honestly believe that snippet views are acceptable as sources, when you have not seen any other view, then please take that point to a wider forum where the rest of the community have an opportunity to comment. Otherwise, I suggest you spend time trying to find more/better sources for the neologism if it is so important to you - this thread is one of many in which you appear to be displaying somewhat tendentious behaviour. - Sitush (talk) 22:16, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Tendentious behaviour, is asking for verifications and then announcing that more references should have been given. And I'm not just talking about the snippet view here. The quote regarding the term in question was complete in context. And that was the only usage in the book, so no... there's no other context. You are simply trying to ignore here that the term has even been used in a book source. This can not be called a fake reference... disruptive is simply ignoring to take the reference into account after another editor verifies it. --lTopGunl (talk) 22:22, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Welcome to my world muahahahahaha Darkness Shines (talk) 22:20, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Do you know what? I am actually going to copy your habitual linking to policy etc. Read WP:TE and drop this stick, please. You know what you need to do. - Sitush (talk) 22:32, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment As already pointed out numerous times Op-Eds may not be used for statements of fact. The source for the non notable neologism "Pakistan-phobia" is not to be used. I will remove the junk source and the non notable neologism "Pakistan-phobia" tomorrow. Darkness Shines (talk) 01:11, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Musharraf's views

We used the Times of India as a source for comments allegedly made by Musharraf at the 2011 Carnegie event. The ToI is probably not a brilliant source: it is poorly written at the best of times and in this instance, being an Indian newspaper, is quite probably cherry-picking. Certainly, some of the things it says do not sit too well with another article that it carried here. Do we not have sources that are more independent for this point? And, if not, is there anything reported in The Hindu - a newspaper that tends to be a little bit more reliable than the ToI? - Sitush (talk) 19:28, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

There's a discussion on this above.. and some copies of sources presenting this view were added. Go through that. Also, I don't think TOI will wrongly present the views or something. The source is after all one of the mainstream. --lTopGunl (talk) 21:35, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
ToI frequently gets things wrong. I'll wade through the messy-looking discussion above: there may be a better source there, although earlier I was unable to spot the ToI's content being reported in the same manner by any independent source. And the PDF noted there specifically says that it is not fact-checked. I may have missed something, nonetheless. I can't help but feel that this is a good article subject going to waste. I might return to it at some point and really give it a going-over. - Sitush (talk) 21:45, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
WP:NEWSORG indeed make mistakes and that does not make them unreliable. --lTopGunl (talk) 21:52, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Showing off your knowledge of links to policy etc is not particularly relevant. The PDF specifically says that it is unchecked. What bit of the Newsorg thing permits this? - Sitush (talk) 21:57, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
And how is linking to correct policy showing off? TOI is a news org.. not the pdf. Just for info, there was also another offline source there... Geo.tv I guess. That is also a mainstream. --lTopGunl (talk) 22:13, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
TOI uses the wire services a lot. IANS in this instance, although I also know that IANS use foreign wire services and pass the info on. And the one wire service that we have found issued a transcript. And the transcript has not been checked. No idea about Geo TV: did they film the speech? As it says in the earlier thread, it was a pretty odd statement to make, even allowing for Musharraf's eccentricities. I am not saying that the content should be removed but I'd like to see some additional stories about it. Having Pakistanis and Indians contributing to an article such as this is always going to require a lot of scrutiny because of the bad feeling etc that often exists between the two nations. - Sitush (talk) 22:23, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
The wire services when used by other reliable sources are actually given their credibility when published. This was previously mentioned by an editor too. We do have multiple RS for this. Anyway, I'm not going in to another debate about this one after having a long, separate, contentious section just on this. --lTopGunl (talk) 22:26, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
That's fine. If you cannot or do not wish to do so then I'll continue myself and make any changes that I think might be necessary in consultation with people who do want to progress matters. If we have multiple RS then presumably I will be able to find them and then discard this possibly dodgy one. - Sitush (talk) 22:30, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Sure, being previously involved I can provide some context from the above section if required... it is there to read as well anyway. As of my own view here, I've clearly expressed inclusion of this before. The purpose of my comment was, this should not go into circles... many of your objections might have been covered there (or not). --lTopGunl (talk) 22:38, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Section "Pakistani media"

This seems to imply that it contains anti-Pakistan sentiment from Pakistani media. Let's rename it to something more appropriate. Also, if it fails verification, how does moving it changes that? --lTopGunl (talk) 22:59, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

The source failed to verify the statement to which it was previously attached. I mentioned it earlier today. Call the section what ever you like, provided that it complies with the guidelines etc. It is an internal perception: what Pakistan thinks is going on cf what the rest of the world thinks. I will be expanding on it. - Sitush (talk) 23:03, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Made some adjustments according to the source. --lTopGunl (talk) 23:12, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Really? Making reverts per talkpage ("Call the section what ever you like" - above) and sourcing content is not reverts. And an administrator does not have the authority to unilaterally put sanctions, that is done by arbcom or community. --lTopGunl (talk) 23:16, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Changing another editors work in whole or in part is a revert. If an admin may not impose such a sanction then such a sanction does not exist for me, right? Darkness Shines (talk) 23:18, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
You really really don't understand the meaning of editwar. Changes per talk page are not editwar. They don't count towards any editwar. And I'm pretty sure you agreed to your sanction.. that's what got your block lifted... anyway, none of my business till you make a violation with me. --lTopGunl (talk) 23:20, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
I never said you were edit warring, I said you were reverting. I shall ask for clarification on your restriction on the admins talk page. Darkness Shines (talk) 23:23, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
That's not reverting... it is collaborative editing. But then you cant stay from making objections on any of my edits. Have fun, there's no 1RR imposed on me. --lTopGunl (talk) 23:25, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

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Should the non notable neologism "Pakistan-phobia" remain in this article? Given there are no definition of this word in the OED Nor anywhere else I can find such as Merriam-Webster or the EB. Currently sourced by Google mining. Darkness Shines (talk) 10:19, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

  • Strong Keep: Multiple book sources mention this term (and currently cited). a google book search gives 5,210 results. Obviously notable term. The term "Pakophobia" also has a book source referring to it with context as well. That should be kept too (I can start a separate RFC for that if needed). --lTopGunl (talk) 11:02, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
A proper search actually shows About 59 results Darkness Shines (talk) 11:08, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
And what makes you think 59 references are not enough for this? Two or three inline are more than enough, specifically since the term is not a contentious label, rather a term per se. --lTopGunl (talk) 11:30, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
snicker, perhaps you ought to look at them. The first two are from the national assembly and talk of Pakistan having "East Pakistan phobia" You need a definition to use a term like this. Darkness Shines (talk) 11:37, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
And I did not cite those here. Cherry picking? --lTopGunl (talk) 11:43, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
No, showing you that the NEO is not notable, once you remove the unreliable sources + duplicates + those that have nothing to do with the term as you with it to be your are left with roughly 10 sources. This is why I said you should go and look. Darkness Shines (talk) 11:59, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment. Have the four references currently used been garnered from a full sighting of the sources or from GBooks snippet views? If the former, please could we have some transcriptions/copies so that we get a sense of context. How does usage compare to the term Francophobia? - Sitush (talk) 13:29, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
You should check the references since they are available online. Another reference for your question, moved from here. --lTopGunl (talk) 11:17, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
I am sorry but they are not available in anything more than snippet view here. And some are not available at all. - Sitush (talk) 13:58, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
The Fox News link is an Op Ed, sourced from islamonline.net which no longer has it available. So probably not usable as we do not know who even wrote the piece. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:04, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
First one I can view. But then so can you as it is also posted here for some reason. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:37, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

It is unfair to debunk the government for "lacking vision" in tackling terrorism. One does not require a vision to cure this kind of cancer. What is needed is political will, the requisite determination, intelligence input and focused action by the security forces. The question here is not of raising the Pakistan phobia, but mustering courage and calling the Pakistani bluff. What is regrettable is that both the government and the Opposition have politicised the problem to the detriment of the security forces. The latter cannot deliver in the prevailing politically polluted atmosphere. For, lopsided postures can only weaken the nation's resolve, especially of the security forces.

The second source is not from an academic publisher and appears to have been written by an activist Kalim Siddiqui. I do not think a guy with a degree in Economics can be used for sourcing this. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:43, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Third and final book is snippet view only. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:50, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Actually, I cannot see that news source right now. It keeps timing out, which seems to be quite a common problem for some subcontinental news sources. They tend to be a bit hit and miss from where I am. I'll try again later but the bit you show looks like an op-ed. I could maybe live with in this situation. What I cannot live with is that it appears to be a different phrase to the one used in the article. Many people have phobias about many things - spiders, for example, or water if one is rabid - but without a lot of usage it it rather akin to adding "-gate" on to the end of a noun used for a scandal - from Watergate we got Dianagate, Gategate etc (<g>). I am really worried about that lead section because most of it, including the purported definition, does not appear to be sourced either there or in the body of the article. - Sitush (talk) 14:46, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
There are no definition for the term, I already checked the dictionary's. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:50, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Remove from the lead. It could remain in the article in a quote from a notable and reliable source aboutAnti-Pakistan sentiment, but it's not so widely used that it should appear in bold at the top. Tom Harrison 14:40, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Omit at least for now. WP:NEO is inapplicable because nobody is contending that this term is notable enough to be the subject of an article. Nevertheless, I'd omit it here unless and until it's used more widely. Right now the use seems pretty scattered. Furthermore, if a reader happens to encounter the term elsewhere, its meaning is immediately obvious, so there's no particular need for this Misplaced Pages article to explain it or even mention it. Addendum: I'm agreeing with Darkness Shines on the merits, but I strongly disagree with how Darkness Shines framed this RfC. The question should be stated neutrally, not with a phrase like "non notable". Furthermore, it's OK to follow the question with a summary of the argument for one side, but the other side should also have the chance to summarize its case before the RfC is posted. JamesMLane t c 02:06, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Keep the term: though it is unnaturally quirky and doesn't have a stable form yet (as shown by lTopGunl), its existence is documented and vital for the topic. The mention with a plain text explanation would do until the term gets stable. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 13:43, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
    I am unsure how we can mention a term which has no definition without using WP:OR. Also per WP:MOS it should never have been introduced to the article Avoid words and phrases that are not widely accepted (cut down for clarity) Darkness Shines (talk) 16:10, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
    Don't think these games will help: the meaning of the word is absolutely clear, this is the same degree of WP:OR as concatenating phrases "John was born in 1976. John's place of birth within Alaska is unknown" from source to something like "John was born in 1976 somewhere in Alaska". The WP:MOS reference is absolutely irrelevant here, as evidently the term is a part of the subject, not its description. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 17:29, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
    Darkness Shines (talk) 19:09, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
    Not really, I'm basing off your link. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 20:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Remove. I'd rather say WP:NEO applies quite clearly: To support an article about a particular term or concept we must cite what reliable secondary sources, such as books and papers, say about the term or concept, not books and papers that use the term - Ankimai (talk) 21:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Keep: The article is about the concept and not this particular neologism, so I don't think the policy cited by Ankimai above applies in this case. It's the nature of neologisms for there to be a time lag between their appearance in everyday language and their eventual appearance in dictionaries and other references; one of Misplaced Pages's strengths is that it can fill that gap. I prefer "Pakistan-phobia" to "Pakophobia" because it sounds less flippant; the citations given are more than sufficient to establish notability, in my view. All the best, Miniapolis (talk) 14:39, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Keep: Since scholars are using in in books, I think it is sufficient to be kept in the article. I also agree Pakistan-phobia sounds like the better option of the two.Gsonnenf (talk) 06:47, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Remove. The term gets only 24 deghosted Google Books results, so it is not common enough to justify putting in the opening. If we understand "phobia" in the sense of "excessive fear", as many of these results do, that doesn't fit with the content of the article. Kauffner (talk) 13:26, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Due to the systematic bias from less online coverage on Pakistan, most topics won't get much of google hits, especially google books hits. Given that still that many online book results use this word is justifiable for it to be a common term. And after all, we do have those references (which are reliable). --lTopGunl (talk) 13:31, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Remove. WP:BIAS cannot be quoted to publicise non-notable neo-logisms - that becomes OR. Lowering the bar would result in Misplaced Pages opening a flood-gate of neo-logisms, each either a concoction of local English variants or regional languages. AshLin (talk) 14:15, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Please don't add repeat !votes. You added one above. Duplicate removed by user. --lTopGunl (talk) 14:18, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
There was no implication of non notability. Given sources establish that. That was a comment on the term not having millions of sources (while 1-2 are needed actually). --lTopGunl (talk) 14:44, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

United Kingdom

This section is not really about Anti-Pakistan sentiment, it is just common racism, Even Indians were called "pakis" after all. Darkness Shines (talk) 22:53, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Anti-Pakistan racism = Anti-Pakistan sentiment. Mar4d (talk) 05:51, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Fair enough, care to explain why you reverted stuff which will never get sources into the article after I rewrote the lede to reflect what is currently in the article? Read WP:LEDE Darkness Shines (talk) 10:28, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
As you have not bothered to respond I have restored the changes in compliance with WP:LEDE Darkness Shines (talk) 10:28, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Dal Khor

Please discuss this here before removing. This is sourced and mentioned in both books. --lTopGunl (talk) 13:50, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Dear User TopGun, do I have to copy+paste for you what is written in your own sources now? Your first book says Punjabis are referred to as dal khor in PAKISTAN (no mention of Afghanistan) and your second one doesn't even show a result if you search for dal khor. Kindly rv. JCAla (talk) 13:54, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Refer to this discussion: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Dal Khor. It is been presented in detail. Although the term couldn't get consensus for general notability for a separate article, it surely is mentioned in reliable sources and verifiable. I think there's some weight in issues with listing it under Afghanistan, but as far as the term is concerned... it is an old term. You can suggest if you would like to list it some where else? The source says it is used by Pathans. I've listed it under a better section header which actually has more scope in the article. --lTopGunl (talk) 13:59, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
  • "including by fellow Pakistanis themselves" is not in the source. Consider replacing it with "specifically Pathans" as the source says (which can then imply to all Pathans regardless of being Afghans or Pakistanis). --lTopGunl (talk) 14:09, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Oh yes, it is in the source, as the source explicitly talks about nicknames in Pakistan proper. Pakistani Pathans are Pakistanis, aren't they? I mean, Karzai would disagree, but would be quite surprised to find you disagreeing. JCAla (talk) 14:11, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
I personally believe that ethnic group overlaps both nations. So it is not just Pakistan. According to the source, Pathans use this term for Punjabis... this is clearly ethnic. Saying that it is used by fellow Pakistanis is textbook WP:SYNTH. We don't need to say that. It can be true (or even implies to be true) but that is clear from the usage of ethnic groups. --lTopGunl (talk) 14:15, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
The first source doesn't talk about Pathans. It explicitly talks about eating habits and local names inside Pakistan without mentioning by whom they are called that way, just that inside Pakistan they have that nickname. JCAla (talk) 14:21, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
One source specifically cites a Pathan calling the Punjabi dal khor. I've read the given pages of both sources. --lTopGunl (talk) 14:23, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
  • @JCAla: Don't know what Karzai has to do with this, but last time I checked, about a quarter of all Pathans live in Afghanistan. The term itself is in usage among Pashtuns which can be used to imply Afghans. On a side note, why are we even spending otherwise productive time pointlessly bickering over this? I'm sure there must be other sources explaining the usage of the term 'Dal Khor' among Afghans. Mar4d (talk) 14:35, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
That's why the simplest solution is just to say what the source is saying... no need to improvise over it. --lTopGunl (talk) 14:37, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Last time that I repeat it, the first source speaks about the term being used in Pakistan by Pakistanis. The second source shows no results for dal khor. So, no Pashtuns and even less Afghanistan. Currently the article states what the source featuring "dal khor" says. JCAla (talk) 21:35, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

The source does mention Pushtun, and that is why I titled it Ethnic. Now that you've changed it to a simple term for just anti-Pakistani feeling, it is out of line. The term is used as an ethnic taunt, not as a political one. Better to rephrase it on that. --lTopGunl (talk) 10:39, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
It says and I quote "No results found in this book for dal khor". Anyone, feel free and check this source by TopGun for the term dal khor. Thank you. JCAla (talk) 11:20, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Try "dalkhor" BTW that is from the short story The Train Has Reached Amritsar and cannot ne used as a definition, nor does the story say it is a pejorative Darkness Shines (talk) 11:25, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
(ec) Ah, ok. But, that is a short story not a factual source. Also, the fictional Pakistani Pathan in that book is referring as "dalkhor" to a "frail-looking Babu" from Peshawar speaking the Pashto language. So, in no way is this a source for Punjabis or Pakistanis being called dal khor in Afghanistan. JCAla (talk) 11:33, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict)It is not listed under Afghanistan now, is it? Both books list it as a term used against Pakistani Punjabis. There's no context given for them being named as such only inside Pakistan, rather by Pathans or in general. --lTopGunl (talk) 11:41, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Exactly hence it needs to go as it is pure OR, care to do the honors? I would but am worried about the IBAN thing. Darkness Shines (talk) 11:36, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Please, TopGun, once answer in chronological order. The first source is about the authors' experience inside Pakistan and as such refers to Pakistan. The author makes no mention of Pathans. The second source, a work of fiction, also takes place in Pakistan/India not Afghanistan and it has a Pathan in Pakistan/India refer to a "frail-looking Babu" from Peshawar as "dalkhor" in a rather humoristic way. No mention of Punjabi there. These are the relevant questions: 1) Can a fictional short story be used as a source? I think only when you explicity say, A in his fictional short story B made character C refer to D as dalkhor. But for this, it needs to be a truly notable short story. But then, 2) does Pakistanis being called dalkhor by other Pakistanis constitute an anti-Pakistan sentiment? I dunno, I don't think so. Look, the thing is, I have seen people use that term with regards to Pakistanis. But TopGun has presented no reliable sources in that regard. His sources only show that term is widely used even inside Pakistan among Pakistanis. So, the sources presented do not warrant to keep the content under "anti-Pakistan sentiment". JCAla (talk) 11:57, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
My replies were in the order you asked the questions. I'll rephrase them for the questions you asked now. First source says it is used for Punjabis, the second one says it is being by a Pathan (for a Punjabi in the context - it's been some time I read those pages, you might want to read those instead of just using search terms). 1) Like you say it has to be a truely notable short story, fair enough... it is both notable and in context (we eveb have a Misplaced Pages article on it now: The Train Has Reached Amritsar - I've not checked the article out though). 2) These references make no mention of Pakistanis using this word rather it is being referred to as in general in first source and by Pathans in second source. So I agreed that this should not be listed specifically under Afghanistan just by these sources. I moved it to a separate section. You renamed that section to 'terms', but it is rather emphasizing on the ethnic taunt. So it should be renamed to that. I'm sure that is not the only racist word being used for ethnic groups in Pakistan (regardless of who uses it), we can expand on such a section. This article is currently politically charged and we are missing racism, which is a major topic to come under this. --lTopGunl (talk) 12:21, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
You don't understand. Both books are describing events inside Pakistan. The first author says, in Pakistan he found Punjabis referred to as dal khors. That is not an anti-Pakistan sentiment. The second source, a work of fiction, does not describe any anti-Pakistan sentiment either, rather a Pakistani Pathan calling a Pakistani Babu (who may or may not be Punjabi) dal khor. Also, to clarify, a work of fiction can be cited as one source among several if notbable enough but never as an only source as it needs factual sources for back-up. Do you understand now? So, until now I left the content because of what I wrote earlier, but DS is right in so far that the sources you provided do not show any anti-Pakistan sentiment. As for your last point. If this article is purely about racism, a whole lot of content has to go - nearly everything is solely about political sentiments not racial. JCAla (talk) 12:35, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
It doesn't matter if the events are inside Pakistan. The author does not say either only Pakistanis referred to Punjabis as that or only the foreigners did, this was in general and can be stated as such. The second source is not the only source to back it up. There are two. The second one only adds a detail about Pathans using the source. It doesn't say either that only Pathans in Pakistan use this term (actually the story is about the whole subcontinent). Both these sources say this source is about the ethnic word. There's no original research here. For the last point, no the article is not purely about racism or purely about political hatred/discrimination. You are taking the source's interpretation in black and white in the same way as you took my argument. This article is about content related to both these topics. I said it is currently bent on the political side and not covering racism much. Hope that is clear now. If you still think this is not sourced content, I can start an RFC. --lTopGunl (talk) 12:55, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
First source says Punjabis are nicknamed dal khor in Pakistan. However, you are right in so far as the source does not say it's being used "pejoratively". JCAla (talk) 07:58, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
It also does not say it is a symptom of anti Pakistani feeling. Neither source does, is it pure WP:OR Darkness Shines (talk) 09:24, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Removed, for now. Please find other sources which explicitly show the term being used as an anti-Pakistan sentiment. It being used in Pakistan to refer to a group of Pakistanis does not constitute anti-Pakistan sentiment. I am out of this unnecessary discussion now. JCAla (talk) 12:47, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

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The following content was removed from the article. I'm proposing to re-add it to a section titled "Hatred against ethnic groups" or another similar suggestion as the article covers mostly political part of the topic and lags on the racist discrimination. There are two reliable book sources present in the proposed content; one is a written by an author who took a tour of Pakistan, which clearly mentions this term being used for people living in Punjab while the second one is a notable story related to the real incidents of the partition of India and refers to a Pathan using this term for a Punjabi. This is being represented as an ethnic/racist taunt in both sources and should be covered in this article.

Pakistanis, especially Punjabis, are also often pejoratively called dal khor notably by Pathans.Dal khor means "dal eater". Dal refers to dried lentils, beans or peas.
  1. "Across the Wagah: an Indian's sojourn in Pakistan - Maneesha Tikekar - Google Books". Books.google.com.pk. Retrieved 2012-02-29.
  2. "Literature & nation: Britain and India, 1800-1990 - Harish Trivedi, Richard Allen - Google Books". Books.google.com.pk. Retrieved 2012-02-29.

--lTopGunl (talk) 13:26, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Request for comment

Looks like an extended list

I realise that there are a shed-load of discussions above and that they will be impeding progress on this article, but right now it has the look of being a sort of extended list rather than a coherent exposition. Can we improve on this? And should we not also be noting that there are two sides to the coin: -phobia and -philia. I suspect that we might be better off retitling the article as "Pakistan sentiment" or something similar and trying to cover the whole gamut in one place. - Sitush (talk) 01:19, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Bad idea, see Anti-semetism and similar articles. The two sides of cultural appreciation and hatred are being covered in two separate articles. This one seems to be a list of headings because the sections are small. I expect if we add up content to the article and add some sections for discrimination other than the list by country (I tried to create a heading for ethnicity for example), this can get better. --lTopGunl (talk) 10:43, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
WP:OSE. There are good reasons why, for example, the anti-semitism article exists but others do not. Just because some do is not an argument for this one following them. - Sitush (talk) 13:05, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
You're wrongly citing WP:OSE here, I see a good precedent of cultural appreciation and cultural discrimination categorized in different articles: . --lTopGunl (talk) 13:10, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
I am not getting into what will likely be another pointless argument with someone who currently seems to spend half of their life on drama boards and seems to have quite big ownership issues. Enough time has been wasted by enough people in these farragos, as indeed many have already suggested at umpteen venues. I'll happily discuss the issue with people who are of a more neutral disposition, and I accept (but disagree with) your opinion. Let's see what others think, if indeed anyone has an opinion. - Sitush (talk) 13:17, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
I've given enough existing articles to make my point about the precedent. There was no need of commenting on me and accusing me of ownership and drama unprovoked. It is funny that you go around telling me around about personal comments.. its time you stick to the content, ok? Fair enough about the opinion, I get your point about the topics and showed the way it is being done all around the wiki in reply to that. Surely welcome more opinions. --lTopGunl (talk) 13:31, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment The issue as I see it is that there are neither -phobia and -philia as you have suggested Sitush, there are no definitions for either. The problem is quite simply both articles are quite simply original research. Random bits of information thrown together to create a narrative. Personally I am of the opinion neither article ought exist. I am also not to sure if a person can even have a phobia about an entire country, perhaps the people but not the nation. I will have to look into it. Darkness Shines (talk) 13:23, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
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