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Thanks for the welcome (now I know/ how joan of arc felt/ as the flames rose to her roman nose/and her walkman started to melt...) Pho-logic (talk) 10:07, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

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Cheers bot, again. Liz has fixed. Ceoil (talk) 02:33, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Rwanda - testing waters for second FAC

Hi Ceoil

I hope you're well. It's been a long time, but I may finally have a little more time to spend on Wiki so would like to try to push the Rwanda article forward again. I know you contributed to the first FAC so your advice would be valuable if you have a spare moment.

One of the points raised was that the history section was overlong and also unbalanced in having too manby paragraphs for the 1990s. I have therefore recently reduced its length from 9 to 5 paras, of which only one is for 1990 and beyond. Do you think it is now acceptable?

The other major sticking point as far as I could tell was the explanation of the Hutu/Tutsi distinction. Unfortunately I didn't get a clear idea of what people wanted with that one. It's a notoriously difficult issue to describe, not least because it is contentious as to what the terms actually mean. If you have any ideas as to additional or alternative points I could make on that topic in the lead/history/demographics section I'd also be grateful. Many thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 11:10, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Further to this, I have now put Rwanda back up for FAC. Please check it out and comment at WP:Featured article candidates/Rwanda/archive2 if you have the time. Thanks!  — Amakuru (talk) 10:47, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Accordian to me

"The faces of the two main figures – those of the goat and the woman to the far right – are hidden, while the witches all avert their eyes. Only the woman sitting on a chair to the far right differs. She is apart from the main group, her face hidden by a black veil" This repeats the introduction of the woman on the far right and isn't particularly accurate. Her face isn't hidden as much as some of the other women, the goat's face isn't hidden, it's just in shadow, and not all of the witches avert their eyes, quite a few are looking at the he-goat either terrified or awestruck. The woman on the right is also playing a concertina (or early squeezebox thing, as the concertina supposedly wasn't invented when the Blsck paintings were done), don't any of the sources mention this? Also the "head witch" (mother superior witch, witch-in-chief, whatever) is analogous to the woman with her back to the viewer in the earlier Witches' Sabbath. Yomangani 12:56, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Ok thanks, I need to check these. I dug out the few Goya books during the week, need to go through them again. By the way did you notice we now have Transfer of panel paintings. Ceoil (talk) 22:10, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

That has been Yomangan's goal (or close enough) since what, 2005? The constant fighting over redlinks, ANI reports, and so on, can now be dismissed as the heartfelt apoplexy of one of the truly great redlink advocates in WP history. I think he can retire in peace now, and your recent suggestion on my talk will not be necessary. Riggr Mortis (talk) 22:54, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, thats the community's hope anyway. That he'll now shut.the.fuck.up. about.fucking.transfer.to canvas.already. Its what normal people would do, after all these years, but lets see. Ceoil (talk) 23:08, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah. Thanks for the violence-mitigating kitten. Since behavorial evidence is always required to fairly back up assertions, we must point to: , , , . Ans that's just one article folks, one article. Commence proceedings. Riggr Mortis (talk) 23:44, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I understand from Johnny Cash that after you shoot a man in the guts there is an impulse to make eye contact. To say goodbye, or some girlie rubbish.

Extra €1000 if you resist that impulse, pls cut him down cold like the red link promoting dog he is. And of course if anybody asks, this conversation never happened. Oh and tks for telling be about IRC, we can say whaty we want here and nobody will ever know. He he. Ceoil (talk) 23:52, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Transfer to canvas. Never back down, never surrender...it's what WP:CIVIL is all about. Yomangani 00:32, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Fine, and accepted, but Riggr is here again, so I have a friend, and now CIVIL is a four lettered word that starts with fuck and ends with you. O and txts for looking at the Goya, good guidance there from you.] (talk) 00:39, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

You can't rely on Riggr, he'll be off guessing the top ten Mediterranean countries by number of goats when you need him on your edit war tag team. Yomangani 00:49, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Jesus, you have been Sporcle-stalking me haven't you? You know my account name? You know that's it's another non-animate thing with hard German consonantals don't you? (The answers , for the curious, are Malta, Albania, Montenegro, Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Italy, Croatia, Algeria, and Costa Rica, though not in that order.) I wonder where I go to report this pseudonymical "outing"--is it WR Review? Riggr Mortis (talk) 05:41, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Found a similar quiz suitable for Yomangani: http://www.sporcle.com/games/wasteoflawtime/world-ass-population. Riggr Mortis (talk) 06:06, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Yomangani, it seems Ive been less than careful in my chosing of friend, and if it seemed as I was organuing a squad to take you outn so I could be the top Goya editor, after JNW, then Im really sorry. I fucked up and misgudged the wind, I know realise your might. Friends again? Ceoil (talk) 01:09, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not taking that damn puppy back. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:13, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

So what will we do with Rigger. Hes too cute to be drowned in the toilet, but I agree that he is now a problem. He has a hell of a lot of dirt on both of us, so the sooner the quicker. Yoman approves but still has shreds of humanity so make it lookm like as accident. Alas Riggr Mortis, he lived, and then died. End of story, no question pls. Ceoil (talk) 01:21, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

A cage fight might be our best bet here. There's no end to the possibilities there. Say the word, and it's all arranged. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:39, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Cool, but dont mention it on wiki, fights to the death with wild animals are fround on upon there, although Baseball Bugs might ok it. Still and txs. Ceoil (talk) 01:49, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Bach

Good to see you back, Ceoil. -Thoughtfortheday (talk) 10:12, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. Glad to see you working on Bach, here is one for you.. Ceoil (talk) 10:16, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I hadn't seen this video b4...very impressive.

I don't know if you have time to look at Copyist. I think the definition should cover people who copy art (rather than fake it). I wonder what you think. -Thoughtfortheday (talk) 11:40, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I guess that copying art and music are two very different things, or at least in the sense of producing very similar works. Look at Picassos variations on Las Meninas, if you did that with a piece of music youd be hammered. Prob rightfully. Glad you like the st matthew piece.Ceoil (talk) 11:48, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Lux et sol

7:26-29? Anal Classicist wants to know. Kafka Liz (talk) 23:07, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Ye classicists are all the same, rufnecks always looking to pick a fight. Anyway, the source says 7:26, 29. Ceoil (talk) 23:11, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

There is a reason I stay far away from those pages. Classicists are hardcore. Kafka Liz (talk) 23:14, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Your edit summary sent shivers through my bones. You know how I feel about vegans. Ceoil (talk) 00:08, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Not an exaggeration. The horror, the horror. Kafka Liz (talk) 00:47, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I suppose if you hadnt had a hamburger in years you'd be fairly cranky too. There are a few in my family, and thopugh I love them, I also wanna shake them and ask WFT?? Ceoil (talk) 00:52, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Thereby hangs a tale, actually. I ate my first hamburger about a year ago. And no, I was not a vegetarian before that. Kafka Liz (talk) 00:57, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

A goth so or something. Ceoil (talk) 00:59, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Maybe. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:05, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Thats really great, not heard it before. God I remember Slowcore, , which as I remember grew out of sadcore. Ceoil (talk) 01:17, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Glad you like. A favourite of mine. I'm a bit pissed off just because YouTube is failing me... Clearly I need to learn how to make my own "videos". Kafka Liz (talk) 01:36, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

You mean your not a youtube superstar already? Dude. There around three wiki pages dedicated to various disgraces Im made of myself. Which is grand, its the fashion you know. Ceoil (talk) 01:39, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Of course I'm a YouTube superstar. Vide: Kafka Liz (talk) 01:53, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Euf, thats so about 10 minutes ago. Please, your loosing your edge. Ceoil (talk) 01:57, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Never forced you to click. But... (one of my reparations) Kafka Liz (talk) 02:04, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Phew, I know that. I'll take your reparation and raise you three. Ceoil (talk) 02:09, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Only one thing I can do in response. . Kafka Liz (talk) 02:44, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

. Ceoil (talk) 02:52, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Kafka Liz (talk) 01:56, 12 February 2012 (UTC) Ceoil (talk) 02:00, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Great minds think alike - I almost slotted in this the link is purple for me so I must have clicked it before...probably apropos a conversation here som,etime in the past....Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:30, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Almost went with that one myself! Meanwhile I'm racking my brains for something as pretty as Ceoil's last... something that's not a repeat, that is, and that I can actually find a video of. Perhaps Kafka Liz (talk) 02:34, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Arse - that is a nice tune, but have to keep the house dead quiet for sleeping of others...and I can't be arsed digging thru piles of crap looking for headphones. Thank heavens for youtube on the android, but even out i get in trouble. Got told off for playing angry birds in a cafe the other day.. :( Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:42, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

I came across this the other day..words failed me. Love "Ray of Light" as best Madonna song by some astrophysical unit of measurement, interesting.......Nice to hear "hot metal and methedrine" da da da da....Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:23, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

However, Ray of Light is not a Madonna song. It was written by Dave Curtiss and Clive Muldoon. A song is its words, not its melody or the instruments used. Though, regardless of the claim in the Misplaced Pages article, the original is actually very similar to the Madonna version in its melody. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyCURI6PiaI c 23:57, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Hey Meowy, I follow late 60s/early 70s english folk fairly closely, and I know that, but am fond of the version anyway. From interviews, I gather he was delighted by the exposure. I also like Madonna's producer on that track, here is not one of his best things, but the easiest to find, and its interesting. It works for me, or at least its better than swirhed on bach. . Ceoil (talk) 00:07, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

My son is impressed with this song. I can take it or leave it, err on take it maybe, I'll listen a few more times - does need a bit of volume which is hard in my living room currently. Was just retrospecting. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:27, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Always liked that one. Still listening my way through the links... Kafka Liz (talk) 02:58, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Ok Butthole Surfers go. Re early 90s proto grunge, it dont come better than . Ceoil (talk) 02:46, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Cas you have hidden depts, but very dodgy ones! Yeah sisters were great, but if you want to get seriously odd . I do like Ray of Light, but for me she peaked with like a prayer, which is uncontestably a great song. By the way this months Viz' top tip is RECREATE a Madonna concert by giving your nan a leotard and a can of Special Brew. Ceoil (talk) 13:26, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I listening to a lot of this kind of stuff at the moment, latin influenced minimal techno, but prob is bones are creaky, Im now too old to dance. Best I can manage is to sway my head and tap my finger. eek. Ceoil (talk) 13:32, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Anyone that samples that with a smidgen of colour change on the spectrum is woth a listen :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:03, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

For sure, but that came from this. Ceoil (talk) 21:09, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Interesting song - sample must be obscure as I can't hear the link but I have a screaming 3 year old in the background....up to 5.35Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:56, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Remember that Fatima Mansions tune I posted a month or so ago? I played it for a friend, and she said it made her sick and she'd pay money not to hear it again. This confuses me. Kafka Liz (talk) 00:12, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Never mind; I guess the whole thing wasn't sufficiently Dave Matthews. Kafka Liz (talk) 00:17, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Saw Fatima Mansions a bunch of times in 200-250 capacity venues, and they were one of the most powerful, voilent and anrgy rackets I had the pleasure to here. So loud! just this wall of noise. But they were on a shit indie label (Kitchenware?) and were never able to capture it on record. By the way I was once told to just fuck off and mind my own business by Cathal Coughlan, actually after a gig when he had just split from the sister of a girl I was going out with at the time. We went backstage to say hello, but it wasnt appreciated, for some reason, and he ran us out. Bit of a prick, but great band. Ceoil (talk) 23:39, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I remember your mentioning. Never had the chance to see them, sadly. I'm guessing they would have landed up here, but if they did, I missed them. Violent and angry were my middle names back then (and still are, to a degree, though it's far less obvious). I guess I misjudged my friend; once upon a time they'd have been right up her alley. Kafka Liz (talk) 00:43, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

"I remember your mentioning". I'm doddering in my dotage deary and repeating myself. Still though, I realise people mellow but jesus christ, Dave Matthews? Thats unkind. Ceoil (talk) 00:56, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

If the shoe fits... Kafka Liz (talk) 01:12, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I'll out live all ye youngsters, with my stories, slippers and pipe. Ceoil (talk) 01:20, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I was talking about her, actually, but if you want to claim dotage twice over, don't let me stop you. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:23, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

The goat

I restructured some a year or more ago, but still needs more I think. Do you mind if I pull one of the sections into a sandbox and shove around the text? Truthkeeper (talk) 13:11, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Of course not. I need to get my teeth back into it, and have pulled out the books again. Help much appreciated, and the prob as I see it is that its still just a tableu of fact fact fact, lacking in narrative thread. If that makes any sense. Bty, how are you feeling about Bals? Ceoil (talk) 13:17, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I think that Goya page has always been difficult to structure but if you can't find the sources to fit in more of a narrative, not much you can do. I have some ideas for expansion, but want to mull it over a bit. Might not be a bad idea to meld the background from Leocadia with the background for the goat. Re Bals - very confused. Don't know what to do about the folklore section or the chronicles section, not interested in digging for sources that don't exist or that I can't read, so am thinking of leaving it as is & not bothering with FAC - not really any reason for it anyway. Truthkeeper (talk) 14:04, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

If its not there its not there. iF you are thinking of removing the sections, fine, but at least leave remenants in the footnotes, for the very curious. But anyway FAC doesnt judge on what might have been but on what is, so dont worry. Ceoil (talk) 14:07, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I like it the way it is. The correlation between the folklore and the dance makes sense to me but apparently I haven't done a good job tying it together. If I leave it sit for now, I might come back later and try to fix. There have been too many interruptions anyway on that page - it's a page that needed complete immersion in the sources and I've never really had the time for it. Truthkeeper (talk) 14:18, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I can sure understand that thinking. Destress, forget about the recent posts to you talk, do fun things and then return with a clear head. Ceoil (talk) 14:21, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Re Goya, for some reason that page really bugs me because it's so close and yet not quite there. I'll be putting some stuff on the talk page. Promise not to overwhelm .... Truthkeeper (talk) 19:53, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Hallo

The Maccabees are alright--dunno, you may or may not dig them. That Brett Anderson solo album is surprisingly good. WesleyDodds (talk) 11:35, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

I do like the Maccabees, but saw some blurbs for Brett Anderson and really didnt like. Was never fond of Sueud anyway; too fey, too gay. Have you noticed Guided by Voices are being really pushed on AV Club; listening to a lot of them. They were better than Pavement. Finally found a torrent for the A Tribe Called Quest doc; recommended. Ceoil (talk) 11:44, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Straight edge

Thanks for your copyedits to straight edge --Guerillero | My Talk 00:44, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Your welcome, but Im not edge myself, but a huge fan of Fugazi/Rites of Spring. Fugazi played a lot of 'all ages' gigs in Cork when I was a teenager fair fucking play to them, and they hung around afterwards and talked to us. Thats class. These guys were gods to us, and you can imagine how mindblowing that was at that age. Suggestion is still my fav song by that band, though Brendan and sorry mouth also do it. Ceoil (talk) 00:58, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

My dream is for straight edge to become a GA one day. I was edge till I went to uni; my school is a bit of a party school and I ended up falling for peer pressure. My favorite song by Fugazi is either Merchandise or Reclamation. --Guerillero | My Talk 03:35, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

NOISE

This is bullshit, see http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/emanate (and maybe Emanationism). And I will also undo your other edits due to bullshit like “alleged cases of murder”. --217/83 10:53, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

You seem like a jolly fellow. WesleyDodds (talk) 09:14, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

I don’t know if you, WesleyDodds, have taken a look at the edits, but if you have, you should understand my reactions. It is obvious that these were no “alleged” cases of murder: Faust himself said that he followed his victim to kill him and wanted to take his life; Vikernes doesn’t, but it is obvious that he spread lies after killing Euronymous, and even contradicts himself all the time. --217/83 19:57, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually, H. 217 might be right here. Sorry man, will try and be a bit more careful with that. Ceoil (talk) 23:30, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Okay. For Faust’s statement I could refer to Lords of Chaos (you shouldn’t believe everything in this book, but the interviews probably weren’t falsified by the authors); for lies spread by Vikernes, the Death Row for Traitors weblog is a very good start. --217/83 23:36, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I've seen various reviews, and docs and interviews that trash Lords of Chaos, so it should'nt be taken at face value on everything. I guess its very strong on the early scene, right up to the exit of Euronymous, and I suppose the media attention around the church burnings etc is well enough presented. But certainly the 2nd half is (to me) incoherient rambling about things they know fuck all about, and I lost interest. Look, I'm well into my 30s and its been about 10 years since I followed black metal properly; you know how it is with guys our age, all doom and arty farty Burning Witch/ Sun 0)))) har. I read the source you left, though not tonight. Ceoil (talk) 23:49, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

By following my edits you will notice I often refer to Metalion’s book, which I could do here as well; one problem with Lords of Chaos is that it focussed on Vikernes and the NS stuff as the authors believed Black Metal to be somehow similar to far-right movements, and the way the book shows Euronymous rather fits how Vikernes describes him (or those who now play in Mayhem and tend to talk bullshit about Euronymous) than how Faust or Metalion (who knew him better) do. The description as “incoherient rambling” fits great parts of the book pretty well.

I actually only follow very few bands I still like; lots of older bands ended up being a pain in my arse, musically and ideologically (read my talk page, the Mayhem and Grand Declaration talk pages for details). And although most on my edits here are related to Black Metal, Satanism and other religious topics, that is not my only field; I am more active on the German project, where I also contribute to other articles about Metal, Industrial (real Industrial, not the mislabelled technoid crap of today) articles etc. I also like Doom but know the early Doom better than Drone Doom. Depending on what “arty farty” music means for you, mine is probably Progressive Rock. Listening to old Thrash now though. --217/83 00:15, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah but trash is almost comical now in fairness. I still like the main guys, esp Undisputed Attitude but prob thats because Im more old punk than old metal. I like bits of prog, 10cc etc, but not much. These days its mostly minimal techno, ambient metal and modern classical. I was in Sweden for a year in 96 which is why the balck metal thing, but at the time it was hanging around with anarcho punks, and saw very very few back metal gigs (ie 2, but 2 no marks). I realise norweigians think the sweeds are soft as shite, but at least they have the Danish bands to look down on. He he. Ceoil (talk) 00:31, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Thrash, not trash, please. I don’t like the “comical” stuff like bands singing mostly about alcohol (like Tankard), if you meant these by “is almost comical now in fairness”. Old Punk has its great albums, too, and the musical borders between some Punk and Metal genres are somehow blurred anyway (although some people in both cultures would like to believe otherwise, at least Fenriz doesn’t and actually mentioned Undisputed Attitude as a good example for Metal respecting its own roots). As you mentioned Minimal Techno: “real Industrial, not the mislabelled technoid crap of today” was only to be read in its context, I don’t reject Techno music as a whole.

Do you remember what bands played at these concerts in Sweden? And “soft as shite” in what context? Sweden’s Black Metal bands actually often play more violent music than the Norwegian ones, maybe “soft as shite” in the sense of “well produced” and not as “necro”. Or, in the case of the Swedish “Life Metal” bands, “soft as shite” due to the “socially aware” lyrics instead of Death worship (hence “Life Metal” instead of Death Metal)? Euronymous actually was in good contact with the Swedish Black Metal bands like Marduk (good example for violent Black Metal), Dissection or Abruptum, and rather had a conflict with the bands labelled as “Life Metal”. --217/83 07:43, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

This to me is whats now classic minimal techno , its really a very nasty tune, needs headphones and careful listening but really does it for me. No I dont remember the few bands I saw, as I say I wasnt into it at the time, I would have been 22 then, and really only exposed to trash, but was a big fan of the noise stuff (MBV, Jesus and mary chain, Fugazi, Big Black

Ah, you meant the people, not the subcultures; I really wasn’t sure what you meant, and it wouldn’t have made sense in that context anyway (but this fits many stereotypes well, not that I give a crap about them anyway); haven’t been to Scandinavia since, well, I don’t know really, but maybe it was around 1996, but definitely not much later. But I know I didn’t pay attention to how they perceive each other then. Thanks for the links; I didn’t know Plastikman (but I will have to listen again with headphones), the Shoegazing and Noise Rock-related names on the other hand aren’t new to me. What about Noise with no Rock or -core ending, like this? --217/83 07:00, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much for that link, not heard it before. Im sure you know this.. I like the title too, for me all this stuff begins with the 2nd Velves album, 1st track.. These are fairly dissonant and noisey but with melody a la velves. Ceoil (talk) 09:26, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

The Velvet Underground was a great band. The original first LP you could peel would be a great item to own (and Bathory’s yellow goat LP, though you would rather be sold a bootleg than the real one). By the way, I really appreciate the way this discussion evolved. When I undid your edit, I thought of some kid trying to whitewash their heroes (although the glorification of murder would fit a Black Metal fan much better), I wouldn’t have expected this. --217/83 21:55, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

No worries man, its funny how the net brings out the worst in people and we tend to be short and assume the worst. I suppose its because there is so much going on, stuff hitting you from every angle and you not have time, or inclination, to think too much about were the other person is comng from. I appreciate that you came to talk to me, and I have enjoyed the conversation. You have fairly decent taste, I notice that most who have been into black metal have an otherwise broad knowledge. In say comparison to death metal fans, who tend to be more retarded, musically. That actually is a perfectily logical fact to me, an interest in sound vs simple agression. Here is something mental. Ceoil (talk) 22:01, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Calling Death Metal people “more retarded, musically” is interesting because their music is often more technical than Black Metal, but it seems they haven’t really brought anything new to their music for years, whereas Black Metal still has innovative bands after 1996 (Urfaust, Inquisition, Deathspell Omega) and some older bands that changed their style took really bizarre ways (actually including Nightwish if you will, since some members played in Darkwoods My Betrothed; Pagan to my knowledge, therefore not Black Metal but from the surroundings), although I don’t necessarily like what these bands became (there are a few interesting words on the topic in Metalion’s book). And yet the Black Metal scene also attracts people just listening to one kind of music and people retarded not only musically (especially those NSBM fans). Thank you for the F.U.S.E. link, that was worth a listen, too. Guess you already know that one (also covered by Laibach). --217/83 22:56, 4 March 2012 (UTC) Hard to be narrow-minded musically if the classics include tracks like Silvester Anfang by Conrad Schnitzler, Snø og granskog (lyrics by Tarjei Vesaas), Channeling the Power of Souls into a New God and Svarte troner (although Vikernes can go fuck himself together with his retarded fans), or Folk elements (or whole Folk songs) on early Satyricon and Ulver recordings. --217/83 00:52, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

To be honest my impression, and correct me if you think Im wrong here, from having played for years in bands, from speed metal to trad punk to the haevier noisier side of MBV / psychocandy (usually a strong beach boys female melody sung with a drone feedback sound wavering throughout) the "more technical skilled" guys were the most conservative and the guys that tended towards the conventional side of things. Thats my experience anyway, and tks for the Laibach tune esp, nice. Dunno if you'd like this , possibly the greatest bass riff in the hist of post velvs music, and a great spiderly guitar line. It helps if you weere ever into speed. Ceoil (talk) 23:10, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I forgot to add that many of those Death Metal musicians are said to be influenced by Jazz, which is maybe not conservative from a “Rock/Metal only” perspective, but it surely can be from another point of view. I have talked to Punk musicians who were totally narrow-minded and “more technical skilled” musicians who were very open-minded, I couldn’t generalise. If you mean speed as in “up your nose”, I’m not, but that’s not necessary since The Fall was no bad band (John Peel had a pretty good taste anyway). Good you brought that up, I wanted to ask you about the Swedish Anarcho-Punk thing you mentioned. I know some old British bands like Crass (really unique) or Rudimentary Peni and no Swedish bands from the year you spent there (only some older bands like Rude Kids and Mob-47 that don’t necessarily fit in there). --217/83 00:52, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I found punk when I was around 13, in 1987, and was really into Crass at the time, although I still love Crass's album covers and logos. But they dont stand up musically now; nor do any of the grind core bands they lead to; Napham Death and Extream Noise Terror excepted. I still like Electro Hippies, but really that movement only got interesting with Rights of Spring and Fugazi. Husker Du, I can take or leave, and I still consider Nirvana watered down. Here is some dissonance on Irish trad instruments, see what you think. . Ceoil (talk) 01:02, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Napham Death? Never read that misspelling before (not meant to be offensive); the Dead Kennedys cover is a classic of course. Guess you meant Rites of Spring, not Rights of Spring; only know a few songs, these are okay but not more in my opinion. Same for Fugazi (I preferred Minor Threat). But if one of these bands evolved so much I might have missed something, teach me a lesson. --217/83 01:25, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I never pretended I could spell! He he. Re developed, or . Eh, your turn to share some links. 01:30, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

The short one was okay but nothing special for me, the longer one actually bored me. My turn: former Black Metal band covering a former Punk band. --217/83 07:29, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Re the longer one; listen again, its about the change in the kick drum pattern at 3:04. For for that band you need good fidelity to get them, everything is eq'd so tightly, youtube vids dont really cut it. Ceoil (talk) 23:42, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Apology

I want to apologise for the posts I made on your talk page back at the end of January that upset you. I had intended to leave a message earlier, but missed that you had resumed editing and have been busy all this week. Anyway, I am sorry for what I said. I was angry myself, but that is no excuse. I do hope you will accept my apology. Carcharoth (talk) 09:06, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

(not excusing my own behaviour but) Forget it; it was out of character for you, you were angry, and in fairness I was asking for it. For my part, I also apologise. I might not always agree with you, but I do think you are sincear and well meaning, and I should not have jumped at you like that. Pity, and I hope we can let water under the bridge go by. I dont think Ive ever seen tensions on wiki run as high as they are now, or at least in my narrow corner of wiki, and I think we are all on on edge and a little touchy. Thats not me excusing myself, but its context as to why we two might have had words when normally that would not have happened, I'd have taken your advice to calm down as a "friendly word". Anyway, I dont see you in a bad light after it, fwiw. Ceoil (talk) 23:23, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Dear Ceoil; your input requested at Lavrentiy Beria

Dear Ceoil, I noticed you'd previously been involved in editing the article and discussing on the talk page. I'm having some continued problems with getting sufficient consensus on the page; User:Greyhood continues to blanket revert cited content and I'm not really sure what to do about it. Would you mind stopping by the talk page and giving your opinion again? Hopefully this time we can resolve it for good. Bravo Foxtrot (talk) 04:00, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry Bravo, but I dont have a rounded enough knowledge of the sources to make a meaningful argument. I do see what you are up against though. Ceoil (talk) 23:20, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Charles Dickens' article.

Hi Ceoil (i'm wondering how that is pronounced btw.. i have Irish relatives). I'm contacting highly respected editors as the Charles Dickens article has been of a low standard for a long period and edits unvetted. The one longstanding issue that needs to be dealt with in Talk:Charles_Dickens was one editors sweeping allegations. This subject in particular, has been in dire need of a collaboration and discussion among editors, and not one editors POV, so that consensus on the material is reached on talkpage, and the addition and wording scholarly. Thanks Ceoil. Harrison 1979 (talk) 17:26, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Harrison, I would love to see you take on the page but if you do, your a braver person than I am. Its a huge project, prob more than one editor could do on their own, so good move asking around for help; the most rewarding articles are where there are several editors pitching in. Its outside my area, so I cant help on content, though I would help on structure, phrasing etc. The lith community on wiki is not as strong as it was 3 or four years ago as many of the principal guys and gals have left and moved on, though there is still excellent work going on. I'll watch list the page and edit here and there, but prob wont be a collabarotor in any real sense, just a watcdher and sometimes copyeditor. I might suggest a few other names for you to ask if your serious, give me a day or two. Anyway, best of luck. Ceoil (talk) 01:04, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Question

Please check out Talk:Caspar David Friedrich#"Forebear" and the Boime source - there's a question about a source that someone suggested you might have access to. Cheers, Sindinero (talk) 13:36, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

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Lucrezia

Thanks for alerting me to this. The problem is that the painting that is now heading up the article should not be used there as the primary portrait. That painting is plainly a copy, although presumably by a close follower of Leonardo. The argument about that particular version of the picture is a topic completely aside form the identification of thee Belle Ferroniere in the Louvre. If the painting in the Louvre is Crivelli, then so is the copy. Muddling the questions of identity and provenance is problematic.

That new painting should not receive anything more than perhaps a passing mention. It can be dealt with on the La Belle Ferroniere page. I will sort it out! Amandajm (talk) 23:01, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Tks, and its good that a new editor is being listened to, its good to see edit requests being acted on. Ceoil (talk) 23:50, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

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Nothing to do with me mate. You need to talk to Kafka Liz. Shes the villian of this story. Ceoil (talk) 02:16, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Smearing my good name again, are we? There's a price to pay for that, my friend. Kafka Liz (talk) 02:24, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

With all due respect to you, your caught bang to rights by the bot, I dont see you have any option but to await sentence. Its the dignified thing to do, and I dont expect it to be any worse than a mild trashing. Ceoil (talk) 02:33, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Hey, I'm not the one who dragged Swabians into this. NPA on poor Witz there. Kafka Liz (talk) 02:37, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I wouldnt put anything past you. Like the bot caught you fair and square. Best you can do now is man up and beg for forgivnessor accept eternal damnation. Im not a bad guy, really, and if you are sufficiently contrite, I'll leave you back in a limited capacity on the condistion that you post a poem to Riggr's poem page. Deal? Ceoil (talk) 02:55, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Dear god, you drive a hard bargain. You make eternal damnation sound rather tempting. But certainly, I can post a poem, heh heh heh. Kafka Liz (talk) 03:06, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

You better, miss, or I'll use one of my holy joe admin accounts to block you for sloth. Ceoil (talk) 03:11, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

About Minimalism (visual arts)

Actually, I think this is better than the original. (Of course, if it was just some band or other, I'd think it was terrible. But that's the nature of aesthetics.)--Shirt58 (talk) 01:52, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Nice, hadn't heard it before. Related (sort of) , imo way better than the orig. Ceoil (talk) 20:48, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Hadn't heard that one - lovely noise-pop. On the subject of Shoegazing, I can't decide whether my Favourite Album Of All Time is Heaven or Las Vegas or Loveless. Kicking Against the Pricks might be considered a whole album full of covers that were better than the originals. I'm showing my age a little bit here, so I may as well admit that as a kid I heard Molly Meldrum on Countdown introduce a video clip about a somewhat colourful English band that was making waves in the British New Wave scene, and to do yourself a favour, etc. I watched the music video, and thought to myself, who is this ugly girl singing this so, so beautiful song?

But seriously, could possibly have a look at Renato Bertelli? His "Continuous Bust of Mussolini" is instantly recognisable by any student of C20 Art History but the article is a scantily referenced stub.--Shirt58 (talk) 11:07, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Copy edit request

Hi Ceoil,

It's been a while, but you were tremendously helpful in helping raise my last FAC to FA standards, and I'm wondering whether I may interest you in/burden you with a copy edit of the next article I plan on nominating: By Your Side (The Black Crowes album). Thanks for your consideration. Two Hearted River (paddle / fish) 20:42, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Hey again. Looks good so far, though in need of tweaks here and there, minor stuff. Ceoil (talk) 23:16, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

P J Crook: King Crimson covers

Hi Ceoil!

The contemporary English painter P J Crook's article used to have some paraphrased text, which I've removed without rewriting in my own words. You may be familiar with her contributions to the covers of King Crimson albums since 1994 (particularly those published by Robert Fripp's Discipline Global Mobile). I listed some of her KC work at her article and in an associated album-cover category.

If this doesn't appeal to you, perhaps you can imagine somebody who might like to improve the article?

(The Progressive rock article classifies KC as "progressive", a contentious issue, and rehearses the social-deterministic explanation of the decline of progressive rock and rise of punk---notwithstanding Fripp's aiding and abetting The Dead Boys and Blondie and notwithstanding his and Belew's work with the post-punk Talking Heads, etc.)

Cheers,  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:15, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorry man, dont know any King Crimson fans (ahem). I quite like some of Fripp's 90s techno cross over stuff, but it ends there. Good luck though. Ceoil (talk) 23:01, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for replying! :)

Fripp and David Sylvian's "God's Monkey" was interesting. However, any song containing a lyric like "a speck of dust on the penis of an alien" infringes on "penis"'s being copyrighted by The Pixies, I believe.

Best regards,  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 07:39, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Hmm. Sylvian is one of thoes guys Ive always been meaning to look up, he seems very much respected and is refered to quite often. And jesus thats a good tune. Thanks, will take a look. Ceoil (talk) 10:08, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

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How embarrassing. Thanks bot, again. Ceoil (talk) 10:14, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Hmmmm

this has just surfaced on the radio here....hmmmm...somewhat refreshing in a trancelike way. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:18, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

A gothling in his early 20s asked me last night what I think of The Church. Frankly, I always saw them as a poor man's The Mission, a band I always saw as the dull man's Sisters of Mercy. They had a good sound, he had a good voice, but alas no tunes. Dis true? Ceoil (talk) 10:12, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Awwwwww, Unguarded moment was sorta nice, as was almost with you - these were their two early and best known hits. tantalized was later - I liked that too, and no reason was cool - neither of the last two were as generally acclaimed. I had beers with Marty Wilson-piper in a pub once, who was talking about the weirdness of living in Sweden (long days in summer/nights in iwnter etc.) Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:35, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Dude, the vid for "Unguarded moment" would make Slash blush; guitar solo on top of a mountain? Purleasssse. Its a long way from there to here. Tune is good though, but like, what self respecting Goth over-lord goes by the name of Marty Wilson? Ye Australians need to sorth yer shit out. Andrew Eldritch, now there is a good name. Good enough that you might forget he is only five foot two. Ceoil (talk) 10:55, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes I would have liked to have seen Joy Division. New Order played down the road last week and I didn't go.....not sure how I feel about that really. Wow, that looks like an interesting film. Music is interesting. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:14, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Precious

	paintings
	Thank you for bringing paintings to my attention, The Magdalen Reading, the Miraflores Altarpiece when I was in Berlin and could see it, thinking of you in Munich where I saw his Dreikönigsaltar, Nunc dimittis on the right. Latest story (with a story), also with a paiting, Great Dismal Swamp maroons, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:44, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

<blushes> Thaks for that Gerda, I know yout dont say that empty and would have read the pages. I have a lot of respect for the work you are doing on Bach, and it has renewed by interest. I'm even listen to the St John, after years of adoring Matthew only! Hope that kaes you proud, that you are getting people to listen to the music. Ceoil (talk) 14:36, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

No blushes please. No Bach music in the swamp, that is different. English: would you say they settled in the swamp or on the swamp? Amazing grace perhaps. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:41, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

"in the". Nice article, will take a look. Ceoil (talk) 14:48, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

A I see now whats behind your work on the maroon article. Good. Kudos to you, keep on going. Ceoil (talk) 17:11, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

I guess you appreciate the high voltage warning on my user then :) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:37, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Whatever, you stepped up, I followed and I respect it, and at the time I was impressed how you were able to talk to the different parties. Well done. I was just slow to make the association tonight, what with being a bit thick and all. People like you are a serious asstet to the community. Ceoil (talk) 23:38, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

A Project proposal

Hi, I write because I have an idea for a wikiproject that would focus on news events of the kind that doesn't fall under the WIkipedia:In the News categories - that is news that are interesting for people who care about something other than sports, distasers or international politics. Currently there is no place on wikipedia to find news of cultural events or events that are primarily of interest for specific minorities or subcultures in the world (including subcommunities interested in academia, music, arts, or literature). The aim of this project would be to get articles that are newsworthy but doesn't fit the current ITN criteria featured on the main page - and to promote awareness of topics outside of the sports-politics-disaster triangle. I was thinking you might be interested.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:16, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorry man, no interest, whatsoever. Ceoil (talk) 01:17, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Quite alright. Sorry for intruding.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:19, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

No sorry Maunus, didnt want to sound dismisive, just the areas I edit in these days are purposly narrow, is all. I was dissing myself, rather than yourself. Your sound in my eyes. Ceoil (talk) 01:23, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

John Cale is 70

I still love his version of Heartbreak Hotel . And this entropy-driven pop video . And a tribute to direct mail artist Ray Johnson . Best wishes from London, Mick gold (talk) 09:14, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Saw him open for Pere Ubu, when he played piano and performed material from his album for Andy Warhol (with Lou Reed). A wonderful performer and presence.

Some asshole in the crowd yelled "Sing one for Nico!" The insanity that artists have to deal with....

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 10:06, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Hey there Mick (and Kiefer how are you). I read an extract of some soon coming book on the recording and background of Blonde on Blond, and got me back to , such a fricking great track. I was never really big into Cale solo stuff, though I really admire, and actually half fancy, the man. But a lot of the solo stuff is too "arty" for my taste, ie willfully tuneless, ponderous, and humourless. But still what a man. One of the real joys of th' internet / youtube is easy access to recordings that until only 10 years were just near impossible to get (here at least). Eg Le Bataclan '72. Kiefer I never really got Ubu, some education for me pls. Ceoil (talk) 23:30, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Early Netherlandish painting

Well done! I'll read through it and do some tweaking. The intro seems very long and meaty. Could some of it become History?

Amandajm (talk) 09:35, 13 March 2012 (UTC)