Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:52, 15 April 2006

Archive 01 Archive 02 Archive 03

Listen up all you great editors, Comandante has gotten a 24 hour ban for revert warring on the article so I would make the best of that time and get this article in shape. There are alot of POV still that need attention. I'd start editing like mad. I know there are few here that are great at writing and I hope you make the most of this time. --Scott Grayban 13:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

People should argue less and edit more, then this page wouldn't fill up so quickly. Adam 03:30, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Users should respect and adhere to Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines first and foremost, Adam. (see mediation on this matter). --Zleitzen 13:12, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Lets see, I guess Zleitzen likes the name calling and rude behaviour by other users and the constant arguing that goes on here and reverts my changes so I'll stop patrolling this article and talk pages for vandal and rude/nasty comments made and I'll pass along to the admin here that your not interested in a good article but a revert war that gets zip done and half if not a quarter good article. Real sad you know. Don't come to us or other admin when you have problems then. Eventually the article will be put up for deletetion at the rate this article is going. --Scott Grayban 15:09, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Scott, you removed comments relevant to the discussion, not just the personal attack of the user below. Your comments above do not assume good faith. I repeat the above, Users should respect and adhere to Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines first and foremost.

The removal of personal attacks must have community consensus. It should, at most, be interpreted strictly and used sparingly.

--Zleitzen 15:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Let see today:

• German communist remarks were inserted
• citation pointing out that the data supporting Castro's claims for education were from Cuban government source was removed
• pointing by book titles that Cuban culture is world wide was removed
• mention of Graham Greene's novel Our Man in Havana predicting the missile crisis were deleted, apparently because he was "British." However Hemingway's were retained well so was Stephen Crane's but then I put that in too.
• Now I see (below) an apparent assertion that Cuba is democratic (that must be from some follower of Arnold August).
• Phillip Agee is no longer a CIA defector but a political refugee
• the absurdly short sessions and lack of real power of the National Assembly has again been covered up
• "Cuba is a socialist republic, in which the Communist Party of Cuba is the leading force of society and the state" was inserted
• Although based upon words of the Cuban government "The brains of educated Cubans are an important resource for the Cuban State, and thus as becoming a socialist state they are the property of the government, and export of such is strictly regulated ."

was deleted. Busy Busy Busy Go guys go! By the time you have finished, there will be nothing left of balance in this section. Only praise to the gods of marxist ideology. xe xe El Jigue 4-13-05

• citation pointing out that the data supporting Castro's claims for education were from Cuban government source was removed.

Good faith removal. They referred to a different study, not the UNISCO study mentioned in the article.

• "The brains of educated Cubans..." was deleted

Good faith removal. Had no quote marks etc, and gave no impression that this was a statement from Cuban Government.

• "Cuba is a socialist republic etc"

Inserted in line with the Cuban constitution, other encyclopedia descriptions (Britannica etc), foreign language Misplaced Pages pages and much talk page discussion seeking consensus. --Zleitzen 13:10, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Democracy

Bletch, You wrote that Cuba is not a democracy, would you please provide a citation per WP:V. BruceHallman 04:42, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

He doesn't need to. A democracy is a country in which the people are able to choose their government through free elections. Cuban law forbids any political party other than the Communist Party. Therefore there can be no free elections, therefore Cuba is not a democracy. QED. Adam 04:48, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Adam: Yes, editors on Misplaced Pages must provide citations, please see WP:V. BruceHallman 14:25, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Bletch: I see that someone edited out your 'Cuba is not a democracy', and you reverted it back, while during the same time you have not entered into a discussion here as to the verifyable reason for your edit. Perhaps there is an explanation I don't see, but the appearance is that you are editing in violation of Misplaced Pages policy, and as such you are causing harm to Misplaced Pages. Please explain yourself, and please stop your rogue editing. BruceHallman 14:25, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

To all: I hope we share the goal finding compromise between the POV's so that someday we can remove the neutrality dispute box. BruceHallman 14:25, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

To those bent on editing in their specific POV's: Read the Misplaced Pages policy pages again, specifically the part about 'ownership'. None of us own this article, we must share and collaborate. BruceHallman 14:25, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Regarding 'Cuba is not a democracy': I just did a Google search on 'Cuba democratic' and get a huge number of hits, and see that the vast concensus is split between Cuba is a bad democracy and Cuba is a good democracy and there is widespread agreement that Cuba is either a good or a bad democracy. I don't see even a small minority that say it is not at least a bad democracy, and I remind everyone that even a 'bad democracy' is a type of democracy. Perhaps the 'neutral' solution is to relocate the discussion about Cuban democracy from the front paragraph to a section down lower so we can discuss the good and the bad qualities of Cuban democracy in enough depth. It is impossible to do that in a single sentence up top. BruceHallman 14:25, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to question edits and comments via talk page Adam, but could you (and Bletch) provide a citation. If editors are to take the task of editing an encyclopedia seriously then it may be educational to examine descriptions in other encyclopedias such as Encarta;

The revolution professed centralized democracy, meaning that popular participation occurs within designated mass organizations established and controlled by the state. The Communist leadership believes that traditional democracies in Latin America often become military dictatorships or become subject to government corruption, which renders their democratic institutions meaningless. In theory, the Cuban government avoids dictatorship and corruption by creating a strong, centralized political structure that makes every effort to incorporate the opinions of the people when making policy decisions. This, to their way of thinking, qualifies Cuba as a democracy and not a totalitarian government. However, Castro makes all major decisions, without popular referendums. Encarta MSN.--Zleitzen 13:23, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

This would seem the correct encyclopedic NPOV approach if one wishes to discuss Cuban democracy in the article. --Zleitzen 13:33, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Adam they are going to trundle out that old chestnut of Arnold August, the Canadian communist who is a tourist guide in Havana. Xe xe El Jigue 4-13-06

El Jigue, you are writing of 'they', but actually you should be viewing this as 'we'. We are trying to edit this article together. I am not your enemy, I am a co-editor with you. BruceHallman 14:25, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Given that the article itself states that the Communist Party is the sole legal political entity, that is enough to justify the comment about Cuba not being a democracy. --Bletch 12:02, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Cuban "elections"

Here are some materials on the 1998 Cuban "elections", from this source:

January 11: provincial and national assemblies election

August 1999: "The role and work of the candidacy commissions towards the January 11, 1998 elections to the national and provincial assemblies" (pages 299-317). "The electoral campaign for the national assembly and the provincial assemblies, November 29-January 10" (pages 317-354). "The January 11, 1998 elections" (pages 354-364). In this election there are two ballots, one "is to vote for the deputies to the National Assembly, and the other one is for the election of delegates to the provincial assembly in which the vote takes place" (page 354). "1998 election results for the National Assembly" (page 363). Gives by province the percent of valid votes, percent of blank ballots, and percent of spoiled ballots.

Azicri 2000: "The regime asked for a unified vote in the 1998 parliamentary elections for 601 delegates to the National Assembly and 1,192 deputies to the Provincial Organs of People's Power. The elections were also rated as a national referendum on the nation's socialist system. As in 1993, the regime claimed electoral victory. Almost all (98.35 percent) of the 8 million plus registered voters went to the polls. Ninety-five percent of the 7,534,008 votes cast were valid, but 130,227 (1.64 percent) were void and 266,379 (.3.36 percent) were blank-5 percent of the total ballots signified a lower negative vote than in 1993" (page 119). Gives additional statistics. "In the 1998 National Assembly there were 166 women (27.6%) and 435 men (72.3%), for a total membership of 601" (page 313). Describes their "social composition."

Chronicle of parliamentary elections and developments 32 1999: Describes the purpose of the elections, the electoral system, the background and outcome of the elections, and statistics (pages 57-59). "According to the Electoral Law, there is one Deputy for every 20,000 inhabitants or fraction above 10,000 in each of the country's 169 municipalities" (page 57). "The 1998 parliamentary elections were held simultaneously with polling for 1,192 representatives to the country's 14 provincial assemblies. For the expanded National Assembly's 601 seats (up from 589), an identical number of candidatures were finally approved, after screening, by the National Candidature Commission. While not all were members of the ruling and sole political organization - the Communist Party of Cuba - they backed the policies of the Government" (page 58). Statistics include "results of the elections," "distribution of seats according to category," "distribution of seats according to sex," and "distribution of seats according to age" (page 59).

Country report. Cuba, Dominican Republic, Haiti, Puerto Rico 1997, 3: "Although the conduct of the secret ballot in the national elections is scrupulously fair, voters only have one candidate. The results will show the number of spoilt papers and abstentions, which provides a barometer of popular support for the government. After seven years of severe economic hardship, the government is likely to have to admit a diminuition of support" (page 12).

Country report. Cuba, Dominican Republic, Haiti, Puerto Rico 1998, 1: "The results of the January elections have been cited by the government as a popular endorsement. There continues to be a firm rejection of any suggestion of the legalisation of opposition political parties. However, such rigidity contrasts with the clear increase in the space granted for religious activities, and a gradual transformation of economic, social and political culture arising from economic adjustment" (page 7). "Elections were held for the national and municipal assemblies on January 11th, following unprecedented electioneering by the government. The vote is an endorsement of pre-selected candidates rather than a choice between rivals. Half of the candidates are nominated at public meetings before gaining approval from electoral committees, while the other half are nominated by official mass organisations (such as trade unions, farmers organisations and students unions). A turnout of 98.4% of registered voters was reported. Of the total votes, 5% of ballot papers were left blank or spoiled. The sum of abstentions, spoiled and blank votes was therefore only 6.5% of the total electorate. A further 5.6% chose to vote for some of the candidates (a 'selective vote') rather than endorsing all of them on a slate (a 'united vote'), as called for in the election campaign. Subtracting all the possible choices which might be interpreted as rejection of the government, 88.2% of the electorate were reported to have obediently opted for the united vote" (page 10). "The government claims that the elections represent a show of popular support, but its critics have attributed the result instead to fear or apathy on the part of those who do not support the government. They suspect that the result may reflect electoral engineering (in constituencies known to have a high proportion of voters who are more inclined to express dissatisfaction by registering blank or spoiled votes, the candidates offered tend to be highly respected local figures not associated closely with the government), the lack of independent supervision of the count or the barrage of propaganda. They also point out that the system of selection of candidates effectively excludes any truly independent voices" (page 11).

Keesing's record of world events January 1998: "The second direct election of deputies to the enlarged National Assembly of People's Power (ANPP), the Cuban unicameral legislature, was held on Jan. 11. Only candidates nominated by the PCC were permitted to contest the election. Figures issued by the National Electoral Commission showed that all 601 candidates for the 601 posts had obtained the necessary 50 per cent of the votes to be elected. The turnout amongst the 8 million registered voters was officially put at 98.35 per cent. Elections were also held on Jan. 11 to fill 1,192 seats in 14 provincial assemblies" (page 42006).

Prevost 2002: "The trends evidenced in the 1993 elections continued in 1998. There was an overall participation rate in excess of 98 percent. Nationally, 95 percent of the votes cast were judged to be valid, with only 3.3 percent blank and 1.7 percent spoiled. As in 1993 there had been strong calls from those outside Cuba who oppose the revolution for voters to use the occasion to voice opposition to the process; there is no evidence that such a protest occurred. The process of passing on political power to a new generation continued, as two-thirds of the National Assembly delegates were elected for the first time; 28 percent were women. The transition at the level of top leadership also continued, with 45 percent of the Council of State becoming members of this body for the first time" (page 351).

El proceso electoral en Cuba: 1992-1998 1998: "Quinta legislatura 1998-2003: esta legislatura está compuesta por 601 diputados, los que eligieron la Presidencia de la ANPP y el Consejo de Estado" (page 4). Lists officers. "Elecciones generales de 1998" (pages 111-197). Reproduces articles from Cuban publications, including election results and the name of each deputy with the district they represent and the percent of the vote they received.

Roman 1999: "After the...1998 , the percentage of deputies who belonged to the was a little over 70 percent" (page 94). "Of the 601 National Assembly candidates for the 1998 elections, 145 (24.1 percent) were production or service sector workers; 278 (46.25 percent) were municipal delegates, including 90 presidents and vice presidents of 'consejos populares'; 166 (27.62 percent) were female, which was an increase of 32, and 209 (34.8 percent) were incumbents" (page 138).

Adam 05:08, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Rewriting

• I have written a new history section. It is longer than I had hoped, but probably not long enough to replace the History of Cuba article, which no doubt requires rewriting as badly as this one did. Thanks for the opportunity to learn more about Cuban history, by the way.
• I have fixed up the Government and Politics section.
• The Culture section is awful and needs rewriting, but this is not my field. However, if no-one else does it soon, I will just copy some stuff from my trusty Funk and Wagnalls, which will at least be literate.
• The religion section is also very bad - was this whole article originally written by a 10-year-old?
• I have corrected the translation of "Patria y Libertad" (a rather elementary error I would have thought, why did no-one else spot it?)
• I have changed the info box back to "Republic" - this is correct, simple, and non-controversial.

Hasta la vista, Adam 11:35, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I looked at this quick and will look more closely later, though I agree this is an improvment to this section, thanks. BruceHallman 14:31, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Excellent work. The article is now in remarkably better shape. 172 | Talk 12:16, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I have removed some statements some would believe to be POV; added some links and new info; and provided info on Elections from the Elections in Cuba article. Comandante 13:01, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Let me see

• that brains thing as humorous as it was is a quote from the Cuban officials (obviously some one did not read citation)
• DNA studies indicate Taino line did not die out I took the trouble to get my mother's mitochondrial DNA tested because this information is found in the literature as was cited until you guys diddled it
• that fatherland stuff is idiotic, Cubans regard the country female

This list foes on endlessly * I quit after you idiots are insisting Cuba is now a democracy I really wish it was so. El Jigue 4-14-06

The heat

Heated discussion aside, can everyone take a deep breath, and look at the article? I think we all can agree that the article doesn't match anybody's personal point of view, but that overall it is a really good article and that it is moving towards a central 'neutral point' between all the points of view. BruceHallman 15:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the article is moving forward, Adam's edits and Commandante's latest revisions have improved the article considerably. --Zleitzen 15:52, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, although some POV issues remain which should be worked out, they are small enough that I would support the removal of the neutrality dispute tag based on the status of the article now. BruceHallman 16:56, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

The contentious issues that prompted me to put a neutrality dispute tag have been resolved, for now at least. These were in the opening paragraph and the infobox, so I'm now prepared to remove the tag. --Zleitzen 18:19, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Grayban flexing his metaphorical muscles

Insulting will get a block as well. It violates the Misplaced Pages:Civility --Scott Grayban 17:08, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

writes:

Blocks User talk:205.240.227.15

Is there some hidden anger you have? Calling people idiots and such is not helping the issue at ahnd on Cuba. Now this is the last time I'll warn you about your actions on WikiPedia. They are not constructive and you could use your efforts to write a draft up and post it in a sandbox for others to see and read. Instead your obnoxious and rude to everyone because they don't see it your way. Real sad. No more warnings after this one. Next time its just going to be a block for a few weeks. --Scott Grayban 14:52, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

What Sgrayban does not realize that idiot as in “useful idiot” or “useful fool” is a technical term in political discourse as in Mona Sharon’s 1993 book Useful Idiots: How Liberals Got It Wrong in the Cold War and Still Blame America First Regnery Publishing, Inc. ISBN 0895261391. (reviews at ). The term is in constant use e.g. even if Misplaced Pages does not fully agree Useful idiot. One of the most prominent of these Useful Idiots was Walter Duranty .

As stated above, it violates the Misplaced Pages:Civility --Scott Grayban 17:08, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

One notes that Grayban does not threaten Comandante when he calls names such as terrorist mafia etc, (apparently comandate’s revision history has been purged from Misplaced Pages but hey but such inequality “la ley del embudo” is par for the course here it seems. Supposedly banned for 24 hours Comandante is back at it.

Your right I got him blocked for doing that. --Scott Grayban 17:08, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

As to being angry, perhaps if you had risked your life for freedom in Cuba, with the bullets flying over your head, and wounding and killing those beside, and then find all you property taken, been imprisoned, seeing, and at times even burying, the executed, and then exiled for endless decades a given person, perhaps even you, would be somewhat perturbed. El Jigue 4-14-06

I have been through more then what you can believe. --Scott Grayban 17:08, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Grayban following Misplaced Pages principals please document what ever trauma you went through, thus we can be sure of your expertise on Cuba El Jigue 4-14-06

If the people working on this article can not be civil, that means name calling even in talk pages, is a violation of the Misplaced Pages:Civility. --Scott Grayban 17:12, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

El Jigue wrote: "...perhaps if you had risked your life...". I respect that tremendously, but I don't agree that having 'risked your life' gives a priority over other editors at Misplaced Pages, or gives a right to be uncivil etc.. BruceHallman 17:36, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Civility violations

For those of you that think I am flexing should read Misplaced Pages:Civility#General_suggestions before they make another rude comment on this talk page. It is a blocking offense. This talk page has been riddled with it and I have tried to curb those flame war's and revert's but I am just near the end of it and ready to get a admin to deal with the ones that don't wont to play nice here. --Scott Grayban 17:19, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I am sure this will be done most selectively (:>) xe xe El Jigue 4-14-06

I appreciate all efforts to bring civility to this, including from Scott Grayban. Even though we deeply disagree with each other on the politics of this, it is possible to respect each other as people. Don't forget, in the end, we need to collaborate. Objectifying each other only slows that down. BruceHallman 17:23, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

There are gross errors in

"The 1952 election, was contested between Roberto Agramonte of the liberals and Batista, who was seeking a return to office. When it became apparent that Batista had no chance of winning, he staged a coup on 10 March 1952, and held power with the backing of a nationalist section of the army, and of the Communists, as a “provisional president” for the next two years. In 1954, under pressure from the U.S., he agreed to elections. The liberals put forward ex-President Grau as their candidate, but he withdrew amid allegations that Batista was rigging the elections in advance. Batista could now claim to be an elected President, and his regime tolerated a considerable amount of dissent. By Latin American standards, Batista was a very mild dictator." For instance the Liberal party was long gone by this time, it was an election mainly between the "Autenticos" and the "Ortodoxo" Revolutionary Parties.

This could be fixed, I could do it, but others are sure to inject further nonsense. So you guys fix it. El Jigue 4-14-06

From WP:Block Log =>18:02, 14 April 2006 Cyde blocked "205.240.227.15 (contribs)" with an expiry time of 1 month (Exhausting the community's patience.)

That IP, I believe is El Jigue. Hopefully El Jigue will return with a sense of civility and cooperation, because on those terms I would welcome him around here. BruceHallman 18:23, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I would like to help. Just point to what you need help in. Maybe we can get this article out of POV status and get it peer reviewed. --Scott Grayban 18:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

A peer review would be helpful, Scott Grayban. Individual POV issues such as the above just need to be hammered out with consensus and a degree of reason. Keeping consistent NPOV over a longer period is a deeper issue that requires some analysis. I'm attempting to create a discussion about this page within the WikiProject Countering systemic bias.--Zleitzen 18:49, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

After I get some sleep here I'll mull over the article and get some good editors to take a look at it from our CVU team. We have some good ones there that might be able to help on getting that main issue out of the way. So much work but it can be done. --Scott Grayban 19:19, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Patria y Libertad

"Patria" means "homeland" in Spanish, not "patriotism", as any Spanish speaker or English-Spanish dictionary will confirm. "Patriotism" is "patriotismo" in Spanish. Who keeps changing the English translation to say "patrioitism" in the article? Kwertii 18:46, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I thought it actually meant Mother country and Freedom... atleast my rusty spanish says so. --Scott Grayban 19:22, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure its fatherland --Zleitzen 19:25, 14 April 2006 (UTC). Take a look at this translation of the Mexican anthem .--Zleitzen 19:27, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Did you try http://translate.google.com ? It says 'Mother country' and seems very credible. Considering that Fatherland seems offensive (I recall) to some spanish speaking people, (though perhaps not offensive to an english speaker). Also considering that the first impression I get when I hear of 'Fatherland' is Nazi Germany, oh well, what do I know. I suggest that 'Mother country' should be used just to be safe considering that http://translate.google.com is an excellent verifiably source. Although 'homeland' might be the safest compromise, pretty accurate and neutral. BruceHallman 20:14, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

"Patria" means something along the lines of "the physical country plus all the cultural traditions and customs of the inhabitants of the country." My dictionary here (Simon and Schuster's International Dictionary English/Spanish Spanish/English) says "country, native land, fatherland, motherland". During and after World War II, the word "fatherland" in English became indelibly associated with Nazi Germany, so I think that translation would be perjorative at best. I don't like "country" because that word is more associated with just the physical land area in English; "patria" means more than that. "Motherland" is extremely unusual in English. I vote for "homeland"; that seems to me the closest English word that captures the sense of "patria". (In any event, it doesn't mean "patriotism".) Kwertii 20:34, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I was confident that Cuba was one of a number of countries that is referred to as a "fatherland" when translated to English. This group includes all sorts of nations; Norway, Netherlands, and and so on. However, the more I look into the more ambiguous it becomes. I believe that for accuracy it should be "fatherland" (Castros's oft-quoted "fatherland or death" speech etc) but for avoiding controversy it may be worth using "homeland" as the two are interchangeable in translation. --Zleitzen 20:43, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

As a native English speaker, I can assure you that nobody ever uses "fatherland" in English nowadays unless they want to evoke Nazi Germany. For example, the Department of Homeland Security in the US is sometimes disparagingly referred to as the "Department of Fatherland Security" by US leftists. Kwertii 23:17, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I haven't looked into it in any great amount of detail, but I would speculate that the "fatherland or death" translation was done (at least originally) by people who wanted to create a subtle link between Castro and Nazis in the minds of the American public. Kwertii 23:21, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I hope that I'm not coming off as abrasive, but I am a native English speaker, and I can attest that there isn't an equivalence between "fatherland" and and the Nazis among educated people. Myriad languages explicitly "regard" the concept of homeland as masculine. The people that have that association (typically Americans that havn't travelled around much) are probably the same people that see Buddhist swastikas and think "Nazi" as well. That said, "homeland" might be a better translation for unrelated reasons. My Spanish is pretty poor, but my guess is that "patria" is used simply because (IIRC) there isn't a neuter form for that word in that language. Given that English has a neuter form for that concept, "homeland" seems more appropriate. --Bletch 11:48, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Patria

The fact is that patria derives from the Latin pater, father, so it is correctly translated as "fatherland." This has nothing to do with Nazis, and I am not American, so spare me your childish political insults. If the Cubans want to consider their country as a female then should make their slogan "Matria y Libertad". That said, I have no objection to rendering it "homeland" if that is less offensive to politically-correct gender-neutralist ears. Adam 00:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I didn't intend to insult you, and I presume you didn't intend to insult me. BruceHallman 03:56, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I guess I will continue to need to presume whether "so spare me your childish political insults" expression is an intentional insult or not. Regardless, your pater = father translation logic about "fatherland" disagrees with http://translate.google.com so it would be best in you would address your criticism to them. BruceHallman 15:10, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that we should use the translation that is correct so that the integrity remains. We maynot agree with it but I don't want to see there Motto distorted so it says something its not in English. That said I have never heard of a latin country refer to its country as a "father" but as a "mother". --Scott Grayban 07:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

The issue is ambiguous, despite Adam's assertions. The Latin motto "Pro Rege Et Patria" used widely on English crests is translated as "for king and country" and not "for king and fatherland". Likewise the motto "Pro deo et patria" (For God and Country).

Balancing cause of human rights POV paragraphs.

"Supporters of the Cuban government will often compare the human rights record to the authoritarian rule under the previous U.S. backed regime of Fulgencio Batista, and they argue that the overall current situation would have been far better if not for U.S. sanctions."

"However, the opposition argues that U.S. sanctions do not justify the communist government’s prohibitions on free speech, free business, its violations on human rights, or the prohibition of personal property for Cubans, arguing that these are purposely done as control tactics."

I agree that it makes sense to balance the POV of the first paragraph with the POV of the second paragraph. The first paragraph essentially makes one statement, 'Batista' was authoritarian, followed by a POV argument the U.S. sanctions have detrimental effect on human rights in Cuba.

While the second new paragraph with an opposing view describes four 'facts', prohibition on free speech, (disputed and not agreed), free business (it doesn't acknowledge recent liberalization of private business), violations of human rights (again does not recognize modern improvements in human rights), personal property (mostly not true, as most personal property is allowed) followed by a POV argument about control tactics.

(I admit my personal POV biases), but the first POV paragraph has one verified and agreed 'fact', and the second paragraph has four generally unverified 'facts'. These simply do not balance.

The two POV arguments do approximately balance. I support balancing the POV's here, but the four unverified 'facts' do not balance. BruceHallman 03:53, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Would the anonymous user 12.77.118.102 who made the 01:01, 15 April 2006 "However the opposition..." POV edit please identify himself or herself? BruceHallman 04:02, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Personally I prefer to see notable cited sources embedded into the article for these types of statements (if available). They can help reduce the potential for POV accusations etc. We are characterising a debate, so it may also be worth combining opposing statements into one depiction. A rough example would be something like this.

there is on going debate over the role of US sanctions on the record of human rights in Cuba, in 2002 The Human Rights council argued that the current situation would have been far better if not for U.S. sanctions. Whilst the Liberty Council assert that the sanctions are purposely done as control tactics.

This is just my personal preference, though. And it does requires research and editing of both sides of the POV. --Zleitzen 05:52, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Peer Review

Are we ready for a 1st round peer review yet? --Scott Grayban 07:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Who are these "peers"? Some further comments:

• I have now read the Human Rights section, and it is as bad as the History section was. I give notice that I will rewrite it when I have looked up some sources.
• The culture and religion sections are still very bad.
• I suspect the rest of the article also needs rewriting, though I am not an expert on health, education etc in Cuba. The whole article seems to have been originally written by semi-literate and very naive admirers of the Castro dictatorship, and probably it all now needs to be replaced. Adam 08:49, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

What problems do you have with the religion section, Adam? --Zleitzen 10:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

A Peer Review is when the article is reviewed by top wikipedian editors that read and comment on what still needs to be changed to avoid POV and other common mistakes like layout and presentation of the article. BTW what happen to the Coat of Arms area? --Scott Grayban 08:59, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

More info about Peer Reviews is at Misplaced Pages:Peer_review --Scott Grayban 09:11, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

User Bletch

Bletch, you have reinserted the statement "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy" in the first paragraph (again). This comes after a week of edit wars, blocks and bans over this issue. Please review talk page history and cite a source for this. For guidance I provided the encarta description of Cuban democracy, I'll repeat it here;

The revolution professed centralized democracy, meaning that popular participation occurs within designated mass organizations established and controlled by the state. The Communist leadership believes that traditional democracies in Latin America often become military dictatorships or become subject to government corruption, which renders their democratic institutions meaningless. In theory, the Cuban government avoids dictatorship and corruption by creating a strong, centralized political structure that makes every effort to incorporate the opinions of the people when making policy decisions. This, to their way of thinking, qualifies Cuba as a democracy and not a totalitarian government. However, Castro makes all major decisions, without popular referendums. Encarta MSN.

Actually I have seen this sourced on military and government sites. When I run across it agin I'll post the link for it but I believe Bletch is correct in a sense. The source I read was "Its the only country in the North America that is a Communist State" --Scott Grayban 12:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Democracy is very broad term that is not limited to particular political systems. Encarta recognise this and write accordingly, keeping to encylopedic standards. The communsist state argument was hammered out at length above. And personally I believe there is a problem of bias in relying on US military and government sources on these matters. Rather like relying on Fidel Castro's opinions of the US to inform the United States article. --Zleitzen 12:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

One man's struggle is another man's war. The wording between Communist and Socialist will never be deceided here. For instance, in China they don't call themselves socialists, they clearly call themselves Communist with overtones of a People's Republic to make it sound better but in all there documentation they refer to communist. Fidel has a close relationship with China and more then once Fidel has aligned to communist ways. Socialist is also broad because it was used in Nazi Germany as well. So there must be a consensus that neither fit as well then. So what do we call Cuba? --Scott Grayban 12:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

And prior to the former USSR falling he aligned with them to. So either Cuba is a Communist State or not. Socialist is just another word to make it sound better. --Scott Grayban 12:59, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

How about we just say Cuba is a Socialist or Communist State depending on the person's view? Something like that is not a POV but a fact. --Scott Grayban 13:02, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

It's a tricky business, Scott. But terms such as democracy, communist state and socialist cannot be used in "short hand" in an encyclopedia. Each term has to be used in the proper form. This is why other encyclopedias use particular language and terminology (see encarta above or encyclopedia britannica entries on Cuba etc). Bletch's statement contradicts that method. Although I may believe in passing that "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy", I am creating a short hand for the term that does not correspond with the true definition. Btw, I thought there was some consensus that the first paragraph wouldn't contain such political detail in any case? --Zleitzen 13:21, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Another conflict arises from providing alternative POV's on this. ie. Cuba is a Socialist or Communist State depending on the person's view. By that rationale an article on (say) Ireland could carry the (albeit unlikely) statement "Ireland is a democratic or theocratic depending on the person's view". That is a poor example, but do you see the problems here? Who has this different view? --Zleitzen 13:31, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh I see the problem.

1. Is Cuba a Socialist or Comunist State
2. If its either one above then then Bletch is correct when it comes to Political Geography of Cuba.

--Scott Grayban 13:37, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Cuba is a Socialist Republic (as in UK is a constitutional monarchy), in which the Communist Party of Cuba is the sole legal political party. That I believe is the correct entry and corresponds with the terminology of other encyclopedias etc. Although the Bletch edit I query here was "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy". --Zleitzen 13:44, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Adam, Why don't you stop the reverting for a bit and talk here and lets hammer out the issue of "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy." and be done with it now. Or does the need of another block in order before we can get this worked out in the talk? --Scott Grayban 13:46, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

"Cuba is a Socialist Republic , in which the Communist Party of Cuba is the sole legal political party." isn't correct either. The Communist Party of Cuba is not the sole political party. They do allow other's to participate. However The Communist Party of Cuba does hold the majority of the political seats which does make them the ruling party. --Scott Grayban 13:50, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually it is the sole legal political party. Some self-proclaimed political parties claim to operate, but they are not recognized by the constitution. Those who run for office, however, do not have to be a member of any political party. On another note, this statement "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy.", is an obvious POV and not a fact so it should be permanently removed. The rest of the article is political enough. Comandante 13:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

You mean legal as in the only one allowed to get voted seats? That's incorrect. Source your claim for that. If you mean legal as in the only one that can vote and the other political parties are just there to amuse everyone that's true. Cuba only tollerates the other political parties because the International Community demands that. Now will Cuba ever allow these other political parties to gain any significant role in the government? Never. That would undermine there Comunist goals. --Scott Grayban 14:09, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

The communist party is the only legal political party in cuba, according to the Cuban constitution and all other sources including US Government. --Zleitzen 14:16, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

And you cite a US Gov. article. You said that you wouldn't trust such information. Site another place. --Scott Grayban 14:19, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Britannica alongside the above mentioned legally binding Cuban Constitution --Zleitzen 14:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

You can play word games with the term "democracy", but in the end if you have a party with a monopoly on political activity and other parties or forms of opposition cannot play a serious role, then the country in question is not a democracy. --Bletch 14:45, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

It would be much easier if we could circumvent the issue, and accept your specific definition of democracy. Then your statement would stand without issue. However, as an encyclopaedia we need to acknowledge that the democracy has no such specific definitions. These are not word games, they are the inevitable part of the process of compiling an accurate encyclopaedia. I'm fairly confident that a peer review from experienced encyclopaedia writers would come to the same conclusions. (Judging from other encyclopaedias this would seem to be the case). It's a nuisance but theres not much we can do about it if we're serious here.--Zleitzen 15:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Can't use Encyclopedia Britannica as a source because the user is required to buy a subscription to see the entire article. That is biased. It's small section about it but you can't read the whole thing. I vote that we use the term "Cuba is a Socialist Republic , where other political parties are allowed to participate but the Communist Party of Cuba holds the majority of seat's and vote's." That certainly encompasses everyone's idea's into one sentence and its NOT POV. --Scott Grayban 14:57, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Thats a good start, but "holds" is too ambiguous; one might suspect that the "hold" is temporary, as in the United States. In that sense, the Republican Party "holds" majorities in the US House, Senate and Executive Branch. Any ideas for a better term? --Bletch 15:10, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

How about "Cuba is a Socialist Republic , where other political parties are allowed to participate but the Communist Party of Cuba has the majority of seat's and vote's." You can't get any better then this without going back to the revert war again. --Scott Grayban 16:14, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I didn't realise you were asking for a source to go within the article itself. Why not use the Cuban Constitution and keep the earlier phrase?--Zleitzen 15:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Well since we seem to stuck on needing sources we might as well have something we can read without the need to spend money for it. And the article sourced should be in its entire and not a piece of it. --Scott Grayban 16:14, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

No problem, Scott. Regardless, the Cuban constitution is the best possible source for this legal matter, and it's linked within the article. (Or it was the last time I looked!)--Zleitzen 16:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

As much as I would like to we all know that there constitution is certainly biased and does not reflect what the Internation Community say's. If we used all the information about Cuba strickly from the Cuban Government we all know that this article will be whitewashed to no end and all our work to provide a great article becomes null. I would like a vote on my last revision to my suggestion above. It is the most accurrate statement we are going to get without a whitewas statement. --Scott Grayban 16:32, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

The next revert will get this article protected

Ok now I am getting tired of this. The next revert done without talking on the talk page and getting this worked out will not only find themselves blocked for a long time. There will be no more reverts by anyone unless there is vandalism period. Everyone is violating the WP:3RR here. Comandante is looking for such a ban. --Scott Grayban 14:03, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I just stated my reason for deleting that POV statement and now your threatening to ban me. That's typical. I wonder why you haven't threatened to ban Bletch who keeps on sneaking his bias into the article? Comandante 14:11, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Scott discussed a ban concerning Adam's revert above, Commandante. I see no bias here. --Zleitzen 14:15, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I have told him to stop as well. I'll do it again too Bletch if you revert or change this article in any manner other then to remove vandalism I'll have you blocked from here. This WP:3RR blantant violation will stop one way or another. --Scott Grayban 14:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Bletch just reverted the article. Comandante 14:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

You need to accept that the days of communist rule over this article are over. Adam 14:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

You need to accept that Cuba is a sovereign, Socialist state, and that at the end of the day, there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. Comandante 14:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

There has never been any contraversy regarding Cuba being "sovereign" and "socialist"; the question was whether it is a democracy or not. --Bletch 14:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

So are you guys going to do anything about Bletch? Or are you going to sit around and hope that i revert him so you can block me as well? Comandante 14:31, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

So uncalled for Adam. It has nothing to do with anyone being a communist here. Its called compromise and if you, Bletch and Comandante can't act civil leave. I can't get simplier then that. --Scott Grayban 14:36, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Last 3RR warning

I just issued the last WP:3RR warning for Adam, Comandante, and Bletch. And i'll post it here as well so that everyone can see it and can't claim I'm being biased here.

Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war; read about how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you do not violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

Bletch:"...the question was whether it is a democracy or not..."

In the section above Bletch wrote: "the question was whether it is a democracy or not." Yes indeed, and repeatedly I have been trying to engage you, Bletch, in a discussion of just this question, though I get a clear impression that you evade our efforts to engage in a discussion of this question. Re-read the message archives and you will see many questions directed to you about this issue which you did not answer. Restating a couple key questions: Please cite a reference that democracy is required to have parties, and if yes, how many parties? In other words, how correct is your assertion that a one party democracy not a democracy? You have not demonstrated that your assertion is not original research. Also, I grant that many people share your POV that democracy in Cuba is very disfunctional. Still, why is a bad democracy not a type of democracy? You *repeatedly* revert your POV sentence that Cuba is not a democracy, and your POV to be accurate perhaps should say that Cuba has a bad democracy. BruceHallman 15:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

There has never been a question of parties per se; its the question of tolerating political opposition. I believed that I made this clear many times in the archives. --Bletch 15:44, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

In other words, how correct is your assertion that a one party democracy not a democracy? BruceHallman, have you been paying much attention to the news since the fall of the Berlin Wall more than 15 years ago? No one who argues that single-party Communist regimes are "people's democracies" has to be taken seriously these days. While Western political scientists have always endlessly disputed the appropriate meaning and definition of democracy, all political scientists agree that contemporary democracies include, at a minimum, the following features: fully contested multiparty elections with full suffrage and the absence of major fraud, combined with some guarantees of political competition, including freedom of speech, assembly, and association. Cuba is not a democracy by any stretch of the imagination as the term is understood in the contemporary English-speaking world. 172 | Talk 15:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

In which case Encarta, Encyclopedia Britannica etc are incorrect in their understanding of the term "democracy" and you are correct.--Zleitzen 16:03, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Please avoid obscurantism. The discussion in an encyclopedia's entry on "democracy" is going to be extremely broad because the term has been understood in vastly different over time ways dating back to the ancient Greeks. When we are talking about whether or not a present-day country is a democracy, it is clear that we are applying the contemporary understanding of the term, not (say) Thucydides' or Pericles'. In the contemporary English-speaking world, when describing a country as a "democracy," it is clear that we mean liberal democracy. 172 | Talk 16:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

As stated above, we can't use Encyclopedia Britannica as a source since you need to buy a subscription in order to read articles so lets stop referencing them because its a biased statement. --Scott Grayban 16:18, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Zleitzen's reference to Britannica is irrelvant, but for another reason. We are not limited to citing free online material. Books and websites that are not free access have always been cited on Misplaced Pages. If that bothers you, get in touch with the Wikimedia Foundation, as the Foundation has the authority to make major changes in the way things are done on Misplaced Pages, not us individual editors. 172 | Talk 16:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm using other encyclopaedias as examples of method within a talk page, not as sources for the article, Scott.--Zleitzen 16:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Its a comparison. Same thing. If everyone can not read the same thing its useless because your inviting a war over words because they can't read it. Let's just aviod any source or any other site that requires that to keep this within the scope of verifiable by anyone --Scott Grayban 16:26, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't read the whole thing either. I'm just giving examples of how encyclopedic standards are applied. --Zleitzen 16:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Zleitzen and Sgrayban, you guys can drop the argument about Britannica. Zleitzen is free to cite it because Misplaced Pages editors have always been free to cite books and non-free access websites. At the same time, Zleitzen's citation of Britannica is irrelvant for reasons I stated above. 172 | Talk 16:33, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Ummm, 172 Right now I'm trying to get a vote on something different here and would like to get just one thing agreed on so we can move on. 3 disputes right now and all I'm looking for is one to get resolved and we are close to it. --Scott Grayban 16:38, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Adam's Human Rights section rewrite

Thanks for your editing efforts I can see that you spent a lot of time and thought which I appreciate. Though regretfully, what you wrote includes too much point of view and too little citation and too much original research. So, I must add a neutrality dispute box to the section. Perhaps it would make sense to move it to a sandbox to hash out the differences? I am not arguing that the previous Human Rights section is better or should be reverted as it had many problems too.

There is so much in your section that quickly listing all the specifics of my dispute is not possible. However, starting with the first sentence, you wrote "...the rights of the individual..." as if we all agree what the rights of the individual should be. In reality your concept is ethnocentric, similar to the systemic bias problem that pervades Misplaced Pages. In the second sentence you write of "the states political aims" as if there is no validity to the concept of ".socialist state of workers, organized with all and for the good of all... " Again, ethnocentric, you are bringing a Free Market capitalistic value belief system towards the forming the basis of your condemnation of a social system that deliberately eschews capitalism.

Can we at least agree that the context of their human rights falls within the context of a socialist society, and that applying capitalistic values on that system is a logical falacy? BruceHallman 16:12, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Works for me --Scott Grayban 16:34, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

...you are bringing a Free Market capitalistic value belief system towards the forming the basis of your condemnation of a social system that deliberately eschews capitalism. BruceHallman, you're way off. Virtually the entire section can be referenced by citing the Cuban constitution itself. Cuba is a one-party state in which the state is constitutionally subordinate to the Communist Party, and the government restricts freedom of speech, association, assembly, press, and movement outside the control of the party. Adam Carr's section elaborates on this fact in a straightforward and factual manner. 172 | Talk 16:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Vote requested

Ok, I would like a vote posted in this section and please only sign with a support or oppose. No need for anything else to be posted.

The vote is for the use of "Cuba is a Socialist Republic , where other political parties are allowed to participate but the Communist Party of Cuba has the majority of seat's and vote's." for the article.

Support

Support --Scott Grayban 16:42, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Oppose