Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 23:41, 10 April 2012

ANI notice

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

Given your noticeboard restriction, you may wish to either request explicit permission to post on ANI in this instance, or else to post your replies here and have someone copy them over. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:30, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Need some copyvio/CC-BY-SA untangling

Currently at AfD, we have Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/March 7 Apple Media Event. The article, March 7 Apple Media Event, was created on 1st March, 2012, by Hghyux (talk · contribs), by copying content over from Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/March 7 2012 Apple media event, created a day earlier by Barts1a (talk · contribs), and slightly re-wording it (no mention of where he obtained the content). The (copied) article is now at AfD based on its merits as an article, but in the meantime, Barts1a was told repeatedly on his talk page that he is in the wrong to say that his copyright was violated, including by his mentor, N419BH (talk · contribs), who has threatened to have him blocked if he continues to argue that that is the case. Now, my inexpert understanding of copyright is that this is very much untrue, and that attribution is required in some form, but again, I'm not an expert. I'd appreciate if someone with a bit more expertise than me could examine:

1. Whether Hghyux's unattributed copying of another editor's work was a violation of copyright
2. Whether Barts1a has been given correct information regarding his rights as the originator of the content, especially by his mentor
3. How to fix the histories of the two pages to fix this apparent copyvio (on my urging, Hghyux has requested a histmerge of the two articles, but I'd prefer to have some more expert eyes checking it and carrying it out)
4. Whether Hghyux or Barts1a has violated our behavioral guidelines in their subsequent clash. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:24, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• Side note: Barts1a is currently restricted from posting on ANI. I've advised him to either request an exemption from that for this thread, or to post his replies on his talk page and have them copied over. Are there any objections to him being allowed to participate directly in this thread by editing ANI? A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:32, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Technically, the copy-paste page move is a copyvio, as the article history has not been carried over. However, such moves are not uncommon as the "move" function is rather infrequently used by the majority of users. The proper course of action was for Barts1a to politely educate the other user regarding the move function for his next page move, and to request an administrator perform a history merge. My strongly-worded comments and blocking threat are a direct response to his immediate assumption of bad faith, his lack of civility in dealing with the matter, and his shouting at the other editor accusing him of copyright violation. Such a response violates WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, and accusing another of copyright violation could be perceived as a legal threat. N419BH 18:48, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Re-read what you just wrote - you agreed that it is a copyvio, but you also said that calling it a copyvio is a legal threat. No, that's not the case. If it's a copyvio, identifying it as one is appropriate. Doing it nicely is ideal, but doing it curtly is not surprising for someone who's just been told that our copyright policies aren't true and he has no right to expect attribution for his work. Could Barts1a have spoken more nicely? Yes. Could everyone else in this entire situation have tried to fact-check their assertions before claiming them to be true? Yes. Would many users react in horror to being told they didn't hold the rights to their work they thought they did and they should drop the stick right now or be disciplined? Yep. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:59, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, technically it is a copyvio, but for a user who has been on wiki for barely a month they likely don't know about the move button. They saw writing they thought should be an article and moved it the only way they knew how, with copy and paste. The proper response was for Barts to say "here's how you do a page move for next time" and to request a history merge. To assume bad faith and start shouting is wholly inappropriate. N419BH 19:20, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• I really think ANI is not a great place to bring this. Rather than try to work out a way for Barts1a to comment here, a much better idea, IMHO, is to nip this thread in the bud, and continue the discussion on Barts1a's talk page. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:51, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

  If this posting brings more expert commentary to Barts1a's talk page to sort the issue out, that would be great and I would be happy to see this thread closed at that point. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:59, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

  Second that. Creating a derivative from Bartsa1's contribution without crediting him is clearly a breach of Bartsa1's copyright, which he retains under the Creative Commons license, and he is entitled to say that if he wants. NLT does not cover advising another editor that they have breached someone's copyright. Yes, he could probably have said it nicer, but if the other editor developed a habit of doing it (hopefully they won't, it was a genuine misunderstanding), they'd get blocked for it. Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:10, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• So Bartsa1,

you are quite right, the Creative Commons license means that you retain copyright, but release most of the controls provided certain conditions are met. The licensee (in this case, anyone on the internet who wishes to use the content) may copy, distribute, display and perform the work and make derivative works based on it - but only if they give the author or licensor attribution to "the best of ability using the information available." On Misplaced Pages, this is normally managed by the edit history, so one way would be to use the move tool, which takes the edit history with the article. Another way might be to copy/paste and credit the original author in the edit summary.

Now, be honest, could you have explained this better to the other guy? If he's new, he needs to know, because if he keeps copying without attribution he'll end up blocked. Did what you say help him to understand why that is the case. Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:22, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• Note: leaving aside the CIVIL and related questions for the time being, note that the pages can't be history merged because Bartsa1 continued to work on his draft after the copying took place. As such, the appropriate way to document the copying is through a {{copied}} tag, which I will now apply. This should take care of the copyright issues. --ThaddeusB (talk) 19:27, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I am glad that this was eventually sorted out. In the meantime I would like to request a new mentor. One that does NOT threaten me with blocks because I call a spade a spade and a copyvio a copyvio. Barts1a / What did I actually do right? / What did I do wrong this time? 22:58, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Furthermore, I have given an apology and an explanation on Hghyux's talk page. Both of which have been accepted, they have also offered an apology for their actions which was also accepted. Barts1a / What did I actually do right? / What did I do wrong this time? 23:35, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• I just noticed on ANI. It says that this discussion was moved to the talk page of a currently blocked editor. You might want to reword that... Barts1a / What did I actually do right? / What did I do wrong this time? 23:11, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, misunderstood an earlier statement, fixed. Nobody Ent 00:47, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Barts1a / What did I actually do right? / What did I do wrong this time? 22:07, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Mentoring

If you're still in the market for a new mentor you might want to talk to User:Worm_That_Turned. He's an active mentor and I've seen him give great advice and help a lot of Wikipedians. Nformation 07:11, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I'll look into that. Thanks! Barts1a / What did I actually do right? / What did I do wrong this time? 07:57, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

Worm · (talk) 08:57, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi Barts1a! Looks like you've got yourself a new mentor! I've created you a mentorship page at User:Worm That Turned/Adopt/Barts1a, which already has the first lesson there. I've also left you a couple of questions at User talk:Worm That Turned/Adopt/Barts1a, which would be great if you could answer at some point. Glad to have you aboard! Worm · (talk) 10:38, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

That was fast. Hopefully Worm's active approach can help you more than my passive approach did. Good luck. N419BH 06:07, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. The fact that it was so fast gives me confidence that a few people still see hope in me becoming a productive editor. Barts1a / What did I actually do right? / What did I do wrong this time? 06:22, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

You're already a productive editor and under Worm's guidance you're only going to get better. Don't be so hard on yourself. One of the hardest things to learn in life is how to graciously accept criticism - while you still have some to learn you're already off to a good start. Nformation 09:11, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Shouting?

There's never ever any need to SHOUT IN ALL CAPS. I'd advise you revert that edit, post haste. Worm · (talk) 11:45, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

I've removed most of the allcaps. I won't be removing the comment though. AFAIK an AfD can be withdrawn by the person that started it regardless of how many votes in either direction were cast. Barts1a / Talk to me / Help me improve 11:49, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, that's fine for me. The relevant policy is WP:WITHDRAWN - which says that after substansive discussion it doesn't work and it shouldn't be used as a shortcut to stifle discussion. Other people have voted delete, so it's ineligible for a speedy keep. Either way, withdrawing and closing is inappropriate too, someone else should have assessed it and closed it. Worm · (talk) 11:52, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

User_talk:Courcelles recall

Hello. User:BarkingFish has backed out of the recall as the initiator and asked that someone else fill his position. Could you please consider taking the role as the initiator rather than a certifier? I am not even sure a new initiator is needed at the moment, but if a recall were to progress it would probably be less controversial if there were someone in that role.--v/r - TP 20:40, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

I noticed that Silverseren has taken the role. Barts1a / Talk to me / Help me improve 22:59, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Could you also check your email on this matter? Worm · (talk) 20:43, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

I've read the email. Food for thought... Barts1a / Talk to me / Help me improve 22:59, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Where do you get off...

telling me I need seven days of talk comments to make a verifiable edit? Luke 19 Verse 27 (talk) 15:48, 10 April 2012 (UTC)