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Early history

The way the early history is written completely disregards a neutral point of view. It gives the reader a wrong view. I believe replacing the quote with this one is more neutral. Robert Hewsen wrote both sides are guilty of oversimplifying the ethnic history of the region, "the population of southeast Caucasus whether under Armenian or Albanian rule, was highly mixed, and to label it as being essentially one or the other or even to divide it simply into two groups is well in advance of the evidence. " Original reference: Robert H. Hewsen, "Ethno-History and the Armenian Influence Upon the Caucasian Albanians" Nocturnal781 (talk) 05:35, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

The entire section is very bad written. There are quotations out of context and/or superseded. Hewsen himself corrected some of his theories that he put forward in Ethno-History. --vacio 15:20, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with vacio. Hewsen changed his point of view. Consult his Atlas for reference and his appearance in Tom de Waal's Black Garden. By the way, I a week ago supported a restoration of a much better-written history section that was put together earlier in 2011 but was erased by User:Tuscumbia who was banned yesterday for a year. Since he is banned, his edits should be reverted. Zimmarod (talk) 23:35, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with changes to the early history section. Nocturnal781 (talk) 23:43, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. Hewsen clearly sticks to his original position in his interview to de Waal, refers to the same work of 1980s and accuses both sides of manipulating the historical facts. Also, primary sources should not be interpreted by wiki editors. We can only refer to interpretations by reliable secondary sources. Mainstream history does not support the idea that Armenians were aboriginal inhabitants of NK and South Caucasus. Since the ancestors of Armenians came into region at some point in history, clearly the region was inhabited by other people before that happened. Also, the sources used must be all neutral and third party, while Caucasian Knot by Chorbaijan and other similar sources are clearly partisan. Also, there are too many suspicions accounts here, restoring edits by other banned SPAs and agreeing with each other. For instance, Nocturnal781 looks pretty much like an SPA. Created on January 9, 2012, the very first edit is to deredlink his user age to look like an established user, and for the most part is engaged in edit warring on AA articles. Zimmarod is the same, created in November 2011, instantly deredlinked his user page and jumped into AA edit wars. I propose to ban all new accounts from editing articles like this, unless they prove themselves good faith editors by editing articles outside of AA conflict for at least 1 year. Grandmaster

That would be grand. --Golbez (talk) 19:41, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Would you support such a proposal? Grandmaster 11:50, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Hewsen didn't completely change his position on the ethno-history of the region, but there are some differences and adjustments that I think we have to pay attention to. I have once pointed out some of these differences (please read from the line Coming to the main point). I agree with Grandmaster to use Hewsen and other third party sources, but in this article Hewsen is quoted out of context and incompletely, furthermore the contradiction made between his later statements is in large part artificial and the consequence of not good examining sources. To be more specific, in both his Ethno-History and Atlas of Armenia Hewsen demonstrates that the entire historical Armenia was inhabited by non-Indo-European tribes, who were not Armenians as we understand today, but pre-Armenians. Which means they were people who later intermarried with incoming proto-Armenians to form modern Armenian ethnicity. Grandmasters contention that Armenians were not aboriginal inhabitants of NK is not exactly what Hewsen says. According to Hewsen the ancestors of the people of NK were both the mostly aboriginal pre-Armenians and the supposedly immigrant proto-Armenians. The only difference between his earlier and later works is, that in Ethno-History he assumed that some of these pre-Armenians were certain Iranian people, while in Atlas he writes that this is uncertain. --vacio 22:15, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I support Zimmarod's initiative to restore the deleted material, and endorse his discussion from the subject-matter perspective. I see imperfections in the restored paragraphs but that can be fixed later. What I also see yet another interesting fact, the re-appearance of Misplaced Pages's notorious account User:Grandmaster. I remember this account from my time in Russian wiki when Grandmaster was accused by Divot of managing a large sockfarm and off-Wiki coordination via distribution lists. See www.wikireality.ru/%D0%98%D0%A1%D0%9A589. It is notable that Grandmaster, who was editing very infrequently last and this year, suddenly re-appeared on this very page (and not editing some article, but on talk pages) only a day after the sanctioning of his Ruswiki's comrade-in-arms User:Tuscumbia to a one-year ban from AA. It was proven in Russian wiki that Tuscumbia and Grandmaster coordinated their edits. And here is Grandmaster, making claims that are absolutely identical to Tuscumbia's. Tuscumbia was banned two times already for claiming that academics of suspected Armenian origin shall be excluded as reliable sources. Grandmaster claims that too right here, trying to exclude Chorbadjian. That will not work. The Caucasian Knot's history section was indeed praised by Thomas de Waal in his most recent monograph, but even if it was not, excluding academics solely because of their purported ethnicity is racist and will be reported and punished continuously. My proposal is simple: to ban User:Grandmaster because of his known off-wiki manipulations, and ban all those accounts from this article which were ever sanctioned under AA1 or AA2. I browsed Grandmaster editing history and it turns out that a precedent for such an action does exist - Grandmaster is banned from editing the Caucasian Albania article.

On the subject of who is and who is not indigenous in Armenia and Karabakh. Hewsen places Artsakh within Orontid's Armenia. Secondly, Mesrob Mashtots founded the first Armenian school to teach his Armenian Alphabet in Nagorno-Karabakh's Amaras Monastery and not in Yerevan or Constantinople. Got it? I recommend Grandmaster more carefully examine recent discussion on talk pages in Murovdag, when stubborn Tuscumbia tried to sabotage edits by making ridiculous insinuations. His fate may await anyone who borrows his methodology. Please note that filibustering, tendentious editing and repeating the same points over and over again - WP:Ad nauseam - will be subject to sanction as per in the recent case with Murovdag. Winterbliss (talk) 01:18, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

There is also information on meta-wiki confirming that Grandmaster was head of 26 Baku Commissars. But I ask Winterbliss and Grandmaster to discuss their proposals to ban certain users in a different section or on the AA2 page. Please let's keep the conversation here on the subject and on a friendly tone. And Winterbliss, let's refrain from ORs based on certain historical facts, there is enough OR in this article already. Thank you. --vacio 10:07, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

First of all, I was not banned from editing any article here, Caucasian Albania included. The ban applies to everyone who was under any sanctions at any time, which pretty much leaves that article to various socks by excluding established users, most of whom were sanctioned. And I don't see how events in other language wikis have anything to do with what's going on here. Now coming to Hewsen, I see no mention of pre-Armenians, if you mean by that people who were later assimilated by Armenians. By the same token, we can mention pre-Azerbaijanis, i.e. Caucasian Albanians who were later assimilated by Turkic people. The fact is that the original population of the Caucasus was neither Armenian nor Turkic, it consisted of various people mostly of Caucasian origin, such as udis. These people were later assimilated by Armenians and Azerbaijanis, but as Hewsen mentioned, the original population represented "heterogenous mass" which "were originally much too diversified". As for reliability of sources, I must remind everyone that we should use third party sources, per WP:VERIFY: Base articles on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. That's what the rules require. Also, the sources must be specialist. I remember that when the Muslim mosque in Yerevan was discussed, some Armenian users were rejecting de Waal because he was a journalist and not historian. Why should we refer to journalists in the matters of history in this article then? Chorbadjian is not third party, and he is not a historian either. Grandmaster 11:44, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Btw, Winterbliss is another curious account. It appeared in November 2011, and also deredlinked his user and talk page by first edits to look like an established user. So there are 3 of such accounts here now, all agreeing with each other. Let's see if there are more to join. Grandmaster 11:48, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Hewsen uses "pre-Armenian" in both Ethno-History and Historial Atlas many times. And he writes that the whole Armenian plateau was inhabited by various ethnic entities before they would intermarry the proto-Armenians (There, they intermarried with the non-Indo-European-speaking natives, already a highly mixed people to form the Armenian people that we know today, Atlas, p. 10). Also, according to Hewsen Udis did not live in Artsakh neither does he mention Cacuasian Albanians or pre-Azerbaijanis living in Artsakh. --vacio 16:23, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Grandmaster is repeating the same points over and over again (Chorbadjian, discussing Armenian identity of peoples living at the time when wooly mammoths roamed the earth :)))), etc.), a method of filibustering a consensus used most recently by User:Tuscumbia in the talks on Murovdag. Like Tuscumbia, Grandmaster is referring to other articles, like mosque in Yerevan above, and other topics, citing imperfections in them as a ground to hold changes in article under discussion. He pretends not to hear that de Waal is an official wiki source on Karabakh, etc. That is why Grandmaster's edit history in Russian wiki is a relevant subject regardless of the fact that Ruswiki and English wiki are different projects - there is lots and lots of evidence that in English wiki Grandmaster uses the same tricks as in Ruswiki, and the recently banned Tuscumbia, as well Mursel are either one editor or a team coordinating their actions off wiki. I never denied that I am a well-established user coming from Ruswiki. I deredlinked my account because I have a long editing history in Ruswiki, and there were many discussions and SPIs about that. Grandmaster is Tuscumbia's quacking meatpuppet who came to the rescue of his recently-banned comrade. He quacks so loudly it is almost deafening. Winterbliss (talk) 22:20, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Misquotation of Suny

Also Sunny is very badly misquoted in this section. The text added by User:Mursel:

Another Armenian historian, Ronald Grigor Suny, argues that Azerbaijanis are the direct descendants of the native Caucasian Albanians and that the territory of Artsakh historically belongs to them.

Sunys text:

Karabagh had been in acient and medieval times part of the kingdom of the Caucasian Albanians. This etho-religious group, now long extinct, had converted to Christianity in the fourth century and drew close to the Armenian church. Over time its upper classes were effectively Armenized. When the Seljuks invaded Transcaucasia in the 11th century, a process of Islamization began that resulted in the conversion of the peoples of the plain to the east of Karabagh to Islam. These people were the direct ancestors of present-day Azerbaijanis, spoke a Turkic language and adopted the Shi'i brand of Islam dominant in neighboring Iran. The mountains remained largely Christian, and in time the Karabagh Albanians merged with the Armenians

As one can see, Suny doesn't claim anywhere that Artsakh "historically" would belong to Azerbajanis. In fact his mention of Azerbaijanis is not about Artsakh/Karabakh at all. All Suny contends in the passage above is:

• Transcuacasus was conquered by Seljuks in the 11th century.
• People living to the east of Karabakh were islamicized and they spoke a Turkic language
• Those people were ancestors of present-day Azerbaijanis. --vacio 16:46, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Misquotation is a serious violation of WP rules. How can such an account be trusted and allowed to continue editing this article? Winterbliss (talk) 22:38, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I changed it, I don't think leaving information that is referenced where the reference is misquoted should be allowed in a article for another second..Nocturnal781 (talk) 23:04, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

According to Hewsen the people of Artsakh were not Caucasian Albanians. Suny bases his text on a superseded theory, according to which Arsakh had been part of Caucasian Albania in 2th century BC. --vacio 10:54, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Hewsen said that people of Artsakh and Utik were of mixed origin, and non-Indo-European, except for people of Iranian origin. And despite some Armenicization, they still were distinct ethnicities when those lands passed to Albania. He clearly says that aboriginl population of Artakh was not Armenian. He cites the names of the tribes inhabiting the region and says that "these names are sufficient to tell us that, whatever their origin, they were certainly not Armenian. Moreover, although certain Iranian peoples must have settled here during the long period of Persian and Median rule, most of the natives were not even Indo-Europeans". And also:

These peoples, all conquered by the Armenians in the second century B. C., must have been subjected to a great deal of Armenicization over the next few centuries, but most of them were still being cited as distinct ethnic entities when these regions passed to Albania in 387, some 500 years later.

So aboriginal population, later assimilated by Armenians and Turkic people, was mostly of Caucasian origin. The region was later conquered by Armenians, then passed to C.Albania, but the population remained mixed and tribal. That's what the mainstream history says. And Hewsen is not the only source. Grandmaster 13:03, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Grandmaster, what exactly do you try to assert? Yes, Hewsen wrote that Artsakh was originally inhabited by various non-Armenian or pre-Armenian tribes. I don't see anyone contesting against this theory here on this TP. My point is that when this theory is mentioned then it should be in its context, complete, furthermore one should also take into account the adjustments that the author made in his recent works. The article, as it now is, needs serious corrections. I am going to rewrite the section and I think it's necessary that the following information is correctly represented in the article:

• In ancient times the Armenian plateau, including Artsakh and Utik, was inhabited by various mostly non-Indo-European tribes. (Atlas, p. 10; Ethno-History, p. 31, 33)
• These people entered the Armenian plateau from various directions (Atlas, p. 10)
• It is uncertain whether Artsakh itself was inhabited by various tribes or just one tribe. (Atlas, p. 58)
• After the fall of Urartu, these people started to intermarry with the incoming proto-Armenians. The Armenians thus represent a fusion of the non Indo-European aborigines and the Indo-European proto-Armenians. (Ethno-History, p. 31) Which means that the claim that the Armenians were not natives is a misrepresentation of the sources.
• The fusion took earlier place in the central part of the Armenian plateau, than in eastern regions like Syunik, Artsakh and Utik. (Atlas, p. 10)
• At the time when Artsakh and Utik passed to Caucasian Albanian, their population consisted of "Armenized" tribes and Armenians "per se". (Ethno-History, pp. 33-34)
• In medieval times the population of Artsakh had a strong Armenian identity. (Atlas, p. 58)

I will be glad to see any further suggestions to improve the article is. Also, I agree that Hewsen is not the only author. Any other reputable sources are welcome to be discussed. --vacio 16:43, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

First off, if Armenians "represent a fusion of the non Indo-European aborigines and the Indo-European proto-Armenians", it does not make them natives to region. By the same token, Azerbaijanis are as much natives as Armenians are, because Azerbaijanis are the fusion of Turkic tribes with aboriginal diverse population of Albania. This logic is flawed, because it cannot apply to Armenians only. As for population of Artsah and Utik, they were Armenized to a certain degree, but not fully, because "most of them were still being cited as distinct ethnic entities when these regions passed to Albania in 387", according to Hewsen. Grandmaster 11:48, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

That is your own interpretation of history. Hewsen does not say anywhere in his studies that since the proto-Armenians (according one theory!) were migrants, hence the Armenian people are not natives. Such a claim is essentially ahistorical, since it is based on the lack of making difference between pre Armenian and proto Armenian elements.

As for your comparison with Azeris — whether they are natives or not— I am not sure if that's relevant to this topic. If I am not wrong, the ancestors of Azerbaijanis came to the Caucasus as Turkic people already, with Turkic identity. Anyhow, I don't remember any scholar calling them proto Azerbaijanis. Also, these ancestors did not absorb Albanians, but people who were Islamized during Arab rule (see p. 35 Ethno-History). Caucasian Albanians were Christians, don't forget.

Yes, in 387 they were mostly Armenized, not completely. Thank you for correcting me. --vacio 12:26, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think he says anywhere anything about either Azerbaijanis or Armenians being natives. That is your own interpretation. As for Azerbaijanis, they indeed absorbed mostly Islamized population, but part of this population was previously Christian. And Albanians is a name for a tribal federation, which consisted of 26 tribes. Of course, Azerbaijanis absorbed Albanians, but not just them. People of Dagestani and Iranian stock also played a significant role in ethnogenesis of Azerbaijani people. But I think the talk about anyone being native or not is not relevant to this article. It is better stick to the fact, and not interpretations. Grandmaster 10:44, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

That is your own interpretation - Where did I make any interpretation or claim above? I only argued against your claim that the Armenians are not natives in the region. Yes, the best thing is to stick to the facts and don't make any interpretation. Also we should refrain from incomplete representation of facts or citations out of context. That's why I quoted Hewsen point by point above. Any other comments or suggestions? --vacio 13:59, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Leaving theoretical disputes aside, what exactly is proposed to be included in the section about ancient history? That section could be improved, but overall it looks more or less balanced, while the mention of Khorenatsi could be removed. And when the article says "other Western authors argued", who are those other authors? Grandmaster 09:47, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Good, and I want to try to improve it. About Movses Khorenatsi I already commented below.--vacio 18:00, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Movses Khorenatsi

Also I read in the section Early history:

However, relying on information provided by the 5th century Armenian historian Movses Khorenatsi, other Western authors argued—and Hewsen himself indicated later—that these peoples could have been conquered by the Kingdom of Armenia much earlier, in the 4th century BC. However it is noteworthy that the credibility of Movses Khorenatsi is disputed.

The only reference in the first sentence is p. 32-33 of Armenia: a Historical Atlas. However I carefully read everything Hewsen wrote about the early history of Artsakh and the Orontids, and he does not say anywhere that he based his research on the issue when Armenia did acquire Artsakh, on the History of Movses Khorenatsi. In fact, the map on the pages pp 32-33 is based on the research of the Armenian scholar Eremyan (see the legend). Furthermore, even if Hewsen and other Western scholars would rely on Movses Khorenatsi, the following two sentences about his credibility – again added by user Mursel – is a WP:SYNTHESIS of sources and should be removed. --vacio 10:54, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Proposed rewrite

After I explained above why that this passage Early History needs serious improvements, here is my proposed edited version (text that I didn't changes is italic):

Nagorno-Karabakh falls within the lands occupied by peoples known to modern archaeologists as the Kura-Araxes culture, who lived between the two rivers Kura and Araxes.

Known then as Artsakh, Nagorno-Karabakh had probably a varied ethnic character in Antiquity . Its pre-Armenians or non-Armenians natives would intermarry with the so called proto-Armenians who came to the region after its inclusion to Armenia in the 2nd or possibly in 4th century BC. According to the prevailing theory among western historians, the Armenian people represent a fusion of these two ethnic elements which started in the western and central part of the Armenian Plateau after the fall of Urartu in 6th century BC and moved to the east .

Overall, from around 180 BC and up until the 4th century — before becoming part of the Armenian Kingdom again, in 855 — the territory of Nagorno-Karabakh remained part of the Armenian Kingdom as the province of Artsakh. After the partition of Armenia between Byzantium and Persia, in 387 AD, Artsakh and the neighboring province Utik became part of Caucasian Albania, which, in turn, came under strong Armenian religious and cultural influence. At this time, the population of these two provinces had a highly Armenian character although many of the aboriginal tribes were still cited as distinct ethnic entities.

I would be glad to hear any remarks and additional suggestions (also from NPOV users like Golbez). --vacio 18:19, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Just so you know, I'm pretty annoyed with this article, and from the start of this latest episode have had no interest in actually reading the proposed edits. Just the manner in which they've been implemented. --Golbez (talk) 14:51, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

The sentence about pre-Armenians or non-Armenians natives is unsourced and "according to the prevailing theory among western historians, the Armenian people represent a fusion" is more relevant to Demographics of Armenia or History of Armenia. As for the second paragraph, I don't think it's factually accurate as it stands. Brandmeister t 16:38, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I think, the origin of Armenian people is also relevant to this article and actually very important to be mentioned. According to Hewsen, the theory about how the Armenian people evolved is essential to describe the ethnic picture of Artsakh in Antiquity and (early) mediaeval times.

Let us take as a starting point the question of the ethnic composition of the population of Arc'ax and Utik', the regions between the Arax and the Kur which were Armenian territory until 387 and which lie in Azerbaidzhán today. To Mnac'akanyan, this territory was originally Armenian; to Bunjatov, it was Albanian. What do we actually know of its history? The general consensus today is that the Armenians, as we know them, represent a fusion between these incoming tribes—conventionally called "Armens"—and the diverse natives of the plateau who had previously formed a part of the Urartian federation.32 For this fusion to have taken place, however, the so-called "Armens" would have had to have spread across the plateau from west to east (Ethno-History, p. 31)

As for pre-Armenian it is the common term used by scholars to designate the tribes who lived in the Armenian plateau before the proto-Armenians came. Probably you did not read the discussion above, because I already provided sources for it. Finally, I didn't change much in the second paragraph, as one can see. If you explain which statements you think are inaccurate, we can check the sources and if necessary correct or change them. Anyhow, the mention that Artsakh became part of Armenia in 2nd century BC, that it passed to Caucasian Albania in 4th century AD and that Caucasian Albania itself was then highly influenced by Armenia (as one can read in Ethno-History of Hewsen), seem correct to me. --vacio 18:26, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Vacio, thanx for your good archival and sourcing work. I find it to be quite helpful. I support the rewrite but donot understand "although many of the aboriginal tribes were still cited as distinct ethnic entities." See Anania Shirakatsi's remark about Artsakh and Utik which were considered to be part of Armenia in Armenia regardless of their weaker connection to Armenia due to attachment to Aghvank. I also would like to see distinction between "Cauasian Albania" of the older times and Kingdom of Aghvank - an Armenian state in all sense and purposes, where Armenians lived in the west and non-Armenians dominated the state's eastern part. We need to restore the entire earlier write-up back to Oct 2011. Zimmarod (talk) 19:42, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Frankly, I didn't had time to screen all the changes between current version and that of Oct 2011. So I can't agree or disagree with the proposal to restore is. My rewrite proposal only refers to the passage Early History, in particular the ethnic composition of the region in Antiquity and early medieval times. Just want to make two remarks.

• About the phrase although many of the aboriginals ...:

This statements is from Ethno-History of Hewsen. It means that most of the pre Armenian tribes which lived in the mountainous part of Armenia in prehistoric times (such as Syunik, Artsakh..) could maintain their tribal identity for a long time, even until the 4th century DC when the ethnic character of this regions was largely Armenian. That's the theory of Hewsen, not my personal opinion. As for Anania Shirakatsi, he is a primary source, and per WP rules we must rely on academic sources.

• About making distinction between Caucasian Albania and the Kingdom of Aghvank:

First of all, whatever it's political and cultural situation was —and indeed the situation changed drastically after 387— Caucasian Albania remained Caucasian Albania and officially did not become an other state; Aghvank is just the Armenian name of Caucasian Albania. --vacio 15:27, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

I have problems with this statement: At this time, the population of these two provinces had a highly Armenian character although many of the aboriginal tribes were still cited as distinct ethnic entities. This does not sound like good English. What is "highly Armenian character"? My understanding of Hewsen is that the region was under the Armenian cultural influence, but population remained mixed, with most of the local tribes still being cited as distinct ethnic entities in the 4th century A.D. And I do not think restoring edits of the banned users is a good idea, those edits are highly POV and contain lots of original research. Banned users are not allowed to edit, so no blind reverts to their version should be allowed. Any substantial edits should be discussed here first. Grandmaster 10:21, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I will try a better wording of that sentence. Hewsen says: In 387 A. D., the various peoples of Arc'ax and Utik', whether Armenians, Armenicized aborigines, or both, passed under Albanian rule. --vacio 11:08, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Please see that the edits of banned users are now owned by Zimmarod who explained their relevancy and highlighted references. So the question is solved. We already heard about the "POV" nonsense, and I don't see any original research. Winterbliss (talk) 20:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I removed Mursel false quotation from obscure source that conflicted with a similar reference per RNajdek's and Winterbliss' comments . Dehr (talk) 02:18, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeapp, agree totally. Also wanna reply to Grandmaster concerning edits by accounts that were considered socks. Imagine someone put out edits that pigs cannot fly and then get's banned. Does this mean that everyone should after that maintain that pigs can fly only because one account was banned as a sock? That's why Grandmaster and the likes of Tuscumbia-Mursel sockpair want to get accounts banned under the false clams of sockpuppetry so that their nonsense could pass for a golden coin forever. They want to ban the truth. The edits should stay or be removed based on their merit not based on who says what. Is that understood? Winterbliss (talk) 02:50, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I propose the following addition to early medieval period:

The Armenian medieval atlas Ashkharatsuits (Աշխարացույց), compiled in the 7th century by Anania Shirakatsi (Անանիա Շիրակացի, but sometimes attributed to Movses Khorenatsi as well), categorizes Artsakh and Utik as provinces of Armenia despite their presumed detachment from the Armenian Kingdom and their political association with Caucasian Albania and Persia at the time of his writing. Shirakatsi specifies that Artsakh and Utik are “now detached” from Armenia and included in “Aghvank,” and he takes care to distinguish this new entity from the old “Aghvank strictly speaking” (Բուն Աղվանք) situated north of the river Kura. Because the Armenian element was more homogeneous and more developed than the tribes living to the north of the Kura River, Armenians took over Caucasian Albania’s political life and was progressively able to impose its language and culture.

Whatever little is known about Nagorno-Karabakh and other eastern Armenian-peopled territories in the early Middle Ages comes from the text History of the Land of Aghvank (Պատմություն Աղվանից Աշխարհի) attributed to two Armenian authors: Movses Kaghankatvatsi and Movses Daskhurantsi. This text, written in Old Armenian, in essence represents the history of Armenia’s provinces of Artsakh and Utik. Kaghankatvatsi, repeating Movses Khorenatsi, mentions that the very name “Aghvank”/“Albania” is of Armenian origin, and relates it to the Armenian word “aghu” (աղու, meaning “kind,” “benevolent”. Khorenatsi states that “aghu” was a nickname given to Prince Arran, whom the Armenian king Vagharshak I appointed as governor of northeastern provinces bordering on Armenia. According to a legendary tradition reported by Khorenatsi, Arran was a descendant of Sisak, the ancestor of the Siunid dynasty that ruled Armenia's province of Syunik, and thus a great-grandson of the ancestral eponym of the Armenians, the Forefather Hayk. Kaghankatvatsi and another Armenian author, Kirakos Gandzaketsi, confirm Arran’s belonging to Hayk’s blood line by calling Arranshahiks “a Haykazian dynasty.”

Armenian culture and civilization flourished in the early medieval Nagorno-Karabakh — in Artsakh and Utik. In the 5th century, the first-ever Armenian school was opened on the territory of modern Nagorno-Karabakh — at the Amaras Monastery — by the efforts of St. Mesrob Mashtots, the inventor of the Armenian Alphabet. St. Mesrob was very active in preaching Gospel in Artsakh and Utik. Four chapters of Movses Kaghankatvatsi’s “History...” amply describe St. Mesrob’s mission, referring to him as “enlightener,” “evangelizer” and “saint”. Overall, Mesrob Mashtots made three trips to Artsakh and Utik, ultimately reaching pagan territories at the foothills of the Greater Caucasus. It was at that time when the foremost Armenian historian Movses Khorenatsi confirmed that the Kura River formed "the boundary of Armenian speech." The 7th-century Armenian linguist and grammarian Stephanos Syunetsi stated in his work that Armenians of Artsakh had their own dialect, and encouraged his readers to learn it. The same advice to study the Armenian dialect of Artsakh was repeated by Essayi Nchetsi, the founder of the University of Gladzor, in the 14th century. In the same 7th century, Armenian poet Davtak Kertogh writes his Elegy on the Death of Grand Prince Juansher, where each passage begins with a letter of Armenian script in alphabetical order.

In the 5th century’s Nagorno Karabakh, Vachagan II the Pious, ruler of Aghvank, adopted the so-called Constitution of Aghven (Սահմանք Կանոնական) — a code of civil regulations consisting of 21 articles and composed after a series of talks with leading clerical and civil figures of Armenia and Aghvank (e.g. Bishop of Syunik). In the 8th century, the Constitution of Aghven was included in the Armenian Book of Laws (Կանոնագիրք Հայոց) by the head of the Armenian Apostolic Church Hovhan III Odznetsi (Catholicos from 717-728), thus laying out a blueprint for later-era Armenian legal texts, such as the Lawcode written in the 12th century by Mkhitar Gosh. The Constitution of Aghven usually features as an inclusion in Movses Kaghankatvatsi’s History of the Land of Aghvank.

I know that it makes little sense to comment here at this point, but still I will explain why the above large chunk of text cannot be used in the article.

The Armenian medieval atlas Ashkharatsuits (Աշխարացույց), compiled in the 7th century by Anania Shirakatsi (Անանիա Շիրակացի, but sometimes attributed to Movses Khorenatsi as well), categorizes Artsakh and Utik as provinces of Armenia despite their presumed detachment from the Armenian Kingdom and their political association with Caucasian Albania and Persia at the time of his writing. Shirakatsi specifies that Artsakh and Utik are “now detached” from Armenia and included in “Aghvank,” and he takes care to distinguish this new entity from the old “Aghvank strictly speaking” (Բուն Աղվանք) situated north of the river Kura. Because the Armenian element was more homogeneous and more developed than the tribes living to the north of the Kura River, Armenians took over Caucasian Albania’s political life and was progressively able to impose its language and culture. Whatever little is known about Nagorno-Karabakh and other eastern Armenian-peopled territories in the early Middle Ages comes from the text History of the Land of Aghvank (Պատմություն Աղվանից Աշխարհի) attributed to two Armenian authors: Movses Kaghankatvatsi and Movses Daskhurantsi. This text, written in Old Armenian, in essence represents the history of Armenia’s provinces of Artsakh and Utik.

This part consist only of personal interpretation of primary sources. This is not allowed per WP:PRIMARY: Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Misplaced Pages to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source. Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so. Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large portions of material on them. The last line precisely describes what you do. Also, the above rule means that it is possible to provide a direct quote from a primary source, but it is not allowed to make any assumptions on the basis of them. The above passage is just a collection of personal interpretations of the primary sources. Anania Shirakatsi not simply quoted, but interpreted, because anyone who read the source knows that this is not what he wrote. Also, the wording "Nagorno-Karabakh and other eastern Armenian-peopled territories" is very strange and is unlikely to be used in any primary or academic source.

Kaghankatvatsi, repeating Movses Khorenatsi, mentions that the very name “Aghvank”/“Albania” is of Armenian origin, and relates it to the Armenian word “aghu” (աղու, meaning “kind,” “benevolent”. Khorenatsi states that “aghu” was a nickname given to Prince Arran, whom the Armenian king Vagharshak I appointed as governor of northeastern provinces bordering on Armenia. According to a legendary tradition reported by Khorenatsi, Arran was a descendant of Sisak, the ancestor of the Siunid dynasty that ruled Armenia's province of Syunik, and thus a great-grandson of the ancestral eponym of the Armenians, the Forefather Hayk.

Same, plus most of Western academia believes that Khorenatsi actually lived in the 10th-11th century, and even Hewsen considers inappropriate to make any conclusions on the basis of Khorenatsi's text, see his Ethno-History. The rest is pretty much the same, interpretation of the primary sources, which is not allowed, and no third party sources are used to support of any of such interpretations. References to some Armenian authors were later added, but except for Hewsen, none of those is third party. Note that WP:VERIFY holds: Base articles on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. So every interpretation of a primary source must be supported by an academic source (preferably Western) without any affiliation with the sides of the conflict. Such sources exist in abundance, and must be used. But what I see is that only the sources from one side are used, and those sources are not third party. For instance:

In the 5th century’s Nagorno Karabakh, Vachagan II the Pious, ruler of Aghvank, adopted the so-called Constitution of Aghven (Սահմանք Կանոնական) — a code of civil regulations consisting of 21 articles and composed after a series of talks with leading clerical and civil figures of Armenia and Aghvank (e.g. Bishop of Syunik). In the 8th century, the Constitution of Aghven was included in the Armenian Book of Laws (Կանոնագիրք Հայոց) by the head of the Armenian Apostolic Church Hovhan III Odznetsi (Catholicos from 717-728), thus laying out a blueprint for later-era Armenian legal texts, such as the Lawcode written in the 12th century by Mkhitar Gosh. The Constitution of Aghven usually features as an inclusion in Movses Kaghankatvatsi’s History of the Land of Aghvank.

Armenian nationalist author Ulubabyan used as a reference for some reason, while he is clearly not third party, while there are reliable third party sources available on the topic. For instance, Iranica :

After the death of Vačē, Albania was to remain for thirty years without a king. It was the Sasanian Balāš (r. 484-88) who decided to reestablish the Albanian monarchy in the person of Vačagan, son of Yazdegerd and brother of the previous king Vačē (Movsēs, History 1.16, tr. p. 25). According to this version, Vačagan Barepaš (the pious) must have been descended from the royal family of Persia. He demonstrated great zeal for Christianity, commanding the nobles who had apostatized to return to the Christian religion and waging war not only on Magianism but also on pagan practices, idolatry, and sorcery (notably against the sect of the matnahatkʿ or “finger-cutters;” cf. below). He took the initiative in convening a church council at Aghuen (between 484 and 488); its canons were endorsed by high civil dignitaries and a certain number of nobles (Movsēs, History 1.26, tr. 50-54).

So Vachagan was of Parthian/Persian origin (Arcasid dynasty), and he was a king of Caucasian Albania, which is substituted here to strange "ruler of Aghvank". As for Chorbaijan, he was discussed in much detail 3 years ago with a previous sock of the banned user: It is quite interesting that he was trying to implement the same edit with the use of the same sources as is done now.

In general, this whole chunk of text is of poor quality, and represents an original research, as is based on primary and non-third party sources. In general, this kind of substantial rewrites should be discussed line by line at talk, and included only when there's a consensus. Reinserting such large chucks of text time after time with the use of new accounts is not acceptable. Grandmaster 11:17, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

• Consensus was established please do not assert that it was not because it is a violation of WP:TE. Winterbliss (talk) 03:19, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

  No, it was not. Consensus does not mean a bunch of recent accounts appearing here and agreeing among themselves. Grandmaster 10:01, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

• Please note that user Dehr replied to your opinion about "Chorbajian" quoting Tom de Waal's endorsement of the historical section of the book, with Tom being WP's top source on NK. Why do you remain against "Caucas. Knot" as a book? It is notable that your proved RuWiki meats Brandmeister, Quantum666 and Tuscumbia have the same opinion and they were banned (!) due to that opinion. Wow! Your meat circus from ruwiki had been pretty much owning things in this article, hadn't it ha? Winterbliss (talk) 03:27, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

• I'm holding de Waal's book in my hands now, opened on page 102. No mention of Chorbajian there. Grandmaster 10:01, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Sources and Opinions

Here is a detailed reply to Grandmaster’s above insinuations about the article:

• The assertion that “this part consist only of personal interpretation of primary sources” is a mis-characterization of immediately confirmable facts. First, a quick look at the edits shows it is not true. Contemporary academic interpretations (secondary and tertiary sources e.g. Hewsen, “Caucasian Knot” etc.) are used extensively to support the purported primary sources (M.Khorenatsi). Perhaps Grandmaster and other uses from his suspected meat team failed to notice later improvements made by Dehr.

• Second, Grandmaster’s opinion is based on misinterpretation of WP:PRIMARY. The policy says: “Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Misplaced Pages, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation.” This means primary sources can be used and interpretation is allowed with the support of secondary sources. The addition of secondary sources was done by Dehr I beleive.

• Third, it is incorrect to believe that every ancient author is a primary source. Many ancient authors are retelling stories of their predecessors, and hence are secondary sources. See the language “Generally, primary sources are not accounts written after the fact with the benefit of hindsight” in Primary source. WP:PSTS says: Primary sources are very close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved. Movses Khorenatsi, Movses Kaghankatvatsi, Anania Shirakatsi, Kirakos Gandzaketsi and other old sources used in the text are both primary sources (when the authors act as chroniclers) and secondary sources when they base their research on earlier accounts. In contrast, some very modern sources are primary sources, e.g. the book “My brother's road” by Markar Melkonian, the brother of Armenian commander Monte Melkonian which is oft cited by Azerbaijani users.

• Grandmaster: “ … plus most of Western academia believes that Khorenatsi actually lived in the 10th-11th century.” Bizarre. There is an opinion that Khorenatsi was a later-era author who lived in the 8th century (10th-11th centuries is Grandmaster’s manipulation). See article Moses of Choren. But whether 5th century or 8th century or even 11th century is immaterial for what Khorenatsi said about Nagorno Karabakh. Interestingly, were Khorenatsi an 8th century author, he would be better qualified as a secondary source.

• Bagrat Ulubabyan is a good academic source. He was criticized by V. Shnirelman for his opinion on the ethnic origin of the population of Aghvank but that was the only criticism. And who was not criticized once or twice? Was not Albert Einstein criticized for his theories? Ulubabyan was used extensively in “Caucasian Knot” and “Caucasian Knot” in turn was endorsed by Tom de Waal (“The Caucasus” p. 102, footnote 2), the top source on the subject and Wiki’s officially endorsed source. Hence both the Western academic text “Caucasian Knot” and B.Ulubabyan’s writings are good and reliable sources per WP:NPOV. If anyone wants an example of POV sources dumped in an article, see Garadaghly Massacre which uses almost exclusively Azerbaijani state propaganda sources and government-sponsored hate publications, such as mns.gov.az, "Бакинский рабочий,” 1news.az, human.gov.az, etc. Grandmaster’s assertion is repeated over and over is a violation of WP:TE and WP:REHASH per and . Attempts to discredit sources on the account of putative ethno-racial background of authors will be reported as WP:BATTLE. Please note that users Brandmeister and Tuscumbia were banned based on such attempts.

• Encyclopedia Iranica indeed speculates Vachagan the Pious was of Arsakid origin. This is a curious fringe/deviated opinion per WP:FRINGE unsupported by primary or other secondary sources. It can be mentioned perhaps in a footnote of an article dedicated to Vachagan the Pious. The work of Movses Kaghankatvatsi which Iranica quotes says in the quoted ch. 16, book I ) that Aran was from the line of Japheth-Hayk, and that “Число царей от Арана до Вачагана Храброго, который был из великого рода Аршакуни, неизвестно. И о том, из какого рода они, достоверного я ничего не могу сказать. Вот по порядку имена тех, кто царствовал над страной Алуанк: Вачаган Храбрый, Вачэ, Урнайр, Иавчаган, Мерhаван, Сато, Асай, Есвален, Вачэ, далее Вачаган Благочестивый – царь Алуанка.” In other words, while Vachagan the Brave is mentioned as an Arsakid king, those who followed him incl. Vachagan the Pious were of unknown origin to Movses Kaghankatvatsi. Iranica misquotes the primary source – there were several monarchs called Vachagan and Iranica messed up. You shall not make for yourself an idol: Isaac Newton was the father of modern mechanics but he also was an avid alchemist; his work on physics is superb but does it mean we should pay attention to any alchemist idiocies he preoccupied himself with?

• Grandmaster: “Consensus does not mean a bunch of recent accounts appearing here and agreeing among themselves.” No, it does mean exactly that, especially since the “new accounts” are as old as 7 (!) to 4 months already (or like me, 2+ years of ruwiki experience). Consensus was established, and most subjects and topics on sources have been excessively discussed, verified and re-owned - do not assert that it was not so because it is a violation of WP:TE. The article needs further development and previously posted and removed material may be used for improving the text if it is found to be of good enough quality. Winterbliss (talk) 03:24, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

• The article has many references to Azerbaijani primary sources, such as Abbas-gulu Aga Bakikhanov (Golestan-i-Iram); Mirza Adigezal bey, (Karabakh-name), Просительные пункты и клятвенное обещание Ибраим-хана and Jamal Qarabaghi's History of Qarabagh. Should we wipe them out because they are primary sources according to Grandmaster?? Dehr (talk) 20:57, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

You are not in position to refute Iranica, which is a reputable third party source. You may personally agree or disagree with it, but it says what it says, and it does not correspond with what you included in the article. And it is not a fringe source, it represents the mainstream scholarly opinion. As for primary sources, you have not provided sufficient number of third party secondary sources to support your interpretation of primary sources. Movses Khorenatsi, Movses Kaghankatvatsi, Anania Shirakatsi, Kirakos Gandzaketsi are not secondary sources, they are considered primary by Misplaced Pages standards, and can only be interpreted by secondary sources. You use only the secondary Armenian sources, which are not third party, and do not have impeccable reputation for accuracy.

Also, Hewsen, to whom you refer, says that it is not appropriate to use Khorenatsi to promote claims that certain territories were inhabited by Armenians. He wrote in Ethno-History:

To attempt to demonstrate that these eastern territories were always Armenian by quoting Movses Xorenac'i, as Mnacakanyan does, is hazardous in the extreme. Whoever the enigmatic Xorenac'i may have been, whenever he may have lived, and however valuable his compilation of antiquities may be as the received tradition of the Armenian people, it has been amply demonstrated that his historical knowledge is highly defective even for the most recent periods with which he deals, and that as a source for early Armenian history his book must be used only with the greatest care. The same is true for the other texts which Mnacakanyan marshals to his cause; all are late and none of them can be used as sources for the extent of Armenian penetration to the east or the boundaries between Armenia and Albania prior to the time of Artashes, let alone the time of Alexander.

He clearly says that Khorenatsi is not a relaible source in this matter. The same is actually true for all primary sources of that time. And parallels with Azerbaijani primary sources are not appropriate, they only state the facts that are a general knowledge and could be found in any secondary source about the region. In particular a treaty between the khan of Karabakh and the Russian tsar, which is an official document, and not a collection of local legends. And not a single established user supported your proposed rewrite. On the contrary, you can see from the history of discussions here that a number of editors objected to your proposal, so there's no consensus for your edit. As for concerns with other articles, they should be addressed in those articles. Grandmaster 15:34, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

The recent edits pretty much reflects the revisionist version of history, criticized by a number of scholars, including Hewsen. For instance, the whole part about Hayk is nothing but baseless speculation that has no place in a serious article. Thus, the recent edit states:

Whatever little is known about Nagorno-Karabakh and other eastern Armenian-peopled territories in the early Middle Ages comes from the text History of the Land of Aghvank (Պատմություն Աղվանից Աշխարհի) attributed to two Armenian authors: Movses Kaghankatvatsi and Movses Daskhurantsi. This text, written in Old Armenian, in essence represents the history of Armenia’s provinces of Artsakh and Utik. Kaghankatvatsi, repeating Movses Khorenatsi, mentions that the very name “Aghvank”/“Albania” is of Armenian origin, and relates it to the Armenian word “aghu” (աղու, meaning “kind,” “benevolent”. Khorenatsi states that aghu was a nickname given to Prince Arran, whom the Armenian king Vagharshak I appointed as governor of northeastern provinces bordering on Armenia. According to a legendary tradition reported by Khorenatsi, Arran was a descendant of Sisak, the ancestor of the Siunid dynasty that ruled Armenia's province of Syunik, and thus a great-grandson of the ancestral eponym of the Armenians, the Forefather Hayk. Kaghankatvatsi and another Armenian author, Kirakos Gandzaketsi, confirm Arran’s belonging to Hayk’s blood line by calling Arranshahiks “a Haykazian dynasty.”

Hewsen writes:

As for the Armenian origin of the House of Siwnik' asserted by Movses, this is highly dubious, and we have evidence of Siwnian separateness and ethnic particularlism as late as the sixth century A.D.

....

Actually, all Movses Xorenac'i asserts is that the House of Siwnik' was of Haykid origin which, as Toumanoff has shown (Studies, 108, 216, 218, 222, 469), should be taken as meaning only that it was of immemorial origin; i.e. that it had been sovereign in Siwnik for so long that no one remembered its origin.

The whole Haykid argument is unscholarly. Haykid only means immemorial origin. Reference to legendary persons who never existed to claim origin of the territory is not a good argument and is rejected by serious scholars. Grandmaster 16:55, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

• Grandmaster's insinuations above are the result of a fundamental misinterpretation of the article's arguments or simply lack of understanding. No one makes direct claims about the Haykid origin of the Arranshanhiks. The text shows lightly commented (by secondary sources) indirect textual references about the origin of kingly dynasties in Artsakh/Aghvank according to medieval authors. By WP:PRIMARY this is impeccable even if we consider these authors only as primary sources. Hewsen and Mnacakanyan and Ulubabyan are all good scholars; they may occasionally agree or disagree but the article does not intend to bog down in their arguments too deeply - the text just points to what the ancient sources agree upon.
• Iranica was commented above. Nothing to add, and no one refutes Iranica. Grandmaster should be aware that further filibustering, tendentious editing and repeating the same points over and over again may be subject to sanction per WP:TE .
• "Armenian sources?" Grandmaster stubbornly insists on a ethno-racial/racist interpretation of WP:NPOV absolutely similarly to what his proven meat puppets in ruswiki Brandmeister, Tuscumbia and Quantum666 were banned/blocked for and according to AdilBaguirov's article about Misplaced Pages. See the latest discussion in Murovdag. Grandmaster should be aware that further filibustering, tendentious editing and repeating the same points over and over again may be subject to sanction per WP:TE . Also be aware of the folly of disputing the reliability of apparently good sources while at the same time supporting such article as Guba mass grave. This will be reported to WP:AE. Winterbliss (talk) 03:51, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

• First of all, stop threatening me. If you think that I'm "filibustering" or something else, you are free to file a complaint. Otherwise, my concerns about inappropriate use of primary and partisan sources remain unresolved. As I mentioned above, scholars like Hewsen consider the use of sources like Khorenatsi to advance claims about Armenian settlement in the area to be inappropriate. You response to this is that I'm filibustering. Not a good argument. Comment on content, not the contributor. Grandmaster 10:25, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

High Medieval, Late Medieval and Demographics sections

That's ok with me but most of this rewrite is already in the article. I also think a link to culture of NK article is imporotant to have here. Zimmarod (talk) 21:30, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

We can delete redundant passages and implant suggested additions. Dehr (talk) 22:15, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I also found a good map that can be used for this article. Dehr (talk) 22:24, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Let's leave the map for the moment and get back to it when we discuss demographics. Now the High Middle Ages section is small and needs rewrite. Any thoughts about which material we can use from the previously available "post-owned" writeup ? My feel is we may need more info on HasanJalalyan family of Gandzasar. Winterbliss (talk) 18:41, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Original research of primary sources. Not acceptable. The proposed section is badly written, and represent personal ideas of the user. Note that we are not allowed to interpret primary sources ourselves. Grandmaster 19:04, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I doubt that proven and convicted meatmasters like Grandmaster can participate in this forum. I noticed no original research and no personal opinions but only Garndmaster's mis-characterization of this collective effort. I am adding secondary sources to back up some statements. Dehr (talk) 21:45, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

About the high middle ages think most things are just fine in the Zimmarod's version and they can be restored right away as they are but I want to know more about the formation of melikates and the 14-15 century events before and after the invasion my Tamerlane. Another thing is a passage needed to explain the demise of the Agvank and emergence of Khachen and other kingdoms on its place. These are obscurely discussed topics in WP and editors in this write up can be motvated to explore good sources telling about these transformations. Kingdom of Bagratid Armenia and its relations with Khachen can be explored in more details but maybe not. I also think that the demographic part can be restored to Zimmarod's ownership above in its entirety. Some work here should be done on sources regarding the ancient period. Dehr (talk) 01:21, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Late middle ages are also good but need more granularity on David Bek - Avan Yuzbashi connection and Karabakh as a center of signakh struggle against the Turkish invasion in the 18th century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dehr (talk • contribs) 01:25, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Once again, you cannot make your own personal interpretations of primary sources, and Chorbaijan is neither a historian, nor a third party source. Reach consensus on talk before making controversial edits. Grandmaster 22:17, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

The book "Caucasian Knot" that you weirdly call "Chorbajian" is a first-class neutral source complied by French and American academics. If you can see from these talk pages that the book's section on early history was endorsed by Thomas de Waal, WP's primary source on this topic. "Caucasian Knot" is just one of secondary sources as you can see that is used to back up primary sources. Secondly, no attempts are made to interpret primary sources. Primary sources are used moderately and in combination with secondary and tertiary sources per WP's rules. All your accusations are not supported by anything. You were warned by administrators that you were behaving disruptively, please take this warning seriously. Dehr (talk) 23:11, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

I am “za” as Russians say :))))) to re-build the version of the text that User:zimmarod wrote about, I think we should do some work on adding more references. Not too many. Understand me correctly I want to do this when after the deleted passages are rebuilt. We should rebuild them first. There are disruptive editors around tryig to torpedo this work. Grandmaster is one of them. The director of Misplaced Pages should get rid of Grandmaster. Also I want to see Karabakh in a wider regional context. Uzer:zimmarod’s rebuilding is good enough and as I saying we should use it first but placing Karabakh in the context of regional and global politics and geoeconomics is a good idea?Sprutt (talk) 23:49, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Good. Let's then sum up those points or elements of the proposed rewrite that need improvement, addition, deletion in other words - modification. "Wider regional context was one suggestion," Gandzasar and Arranshahiks was the other, am I missing something? Winterbliss (talk) 18:23, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Ok, the map that Dehr found, almost forgot. Winterbliss (talk) 18:24, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I like that map. Dehr (talk) 01:54, 8 March 2012 (UTC) In the previous chapter I like the mention of alternative names for Karabakh "Other names used to denote Nagorno Karabakh in history include: Lesser Armenia, Lesser Syunik, and Armenia Interior.." I think we can use that as well. And there was a chapter in the text about culture of Artsakh or something - I can't find it. It seemed to be a reference to a standalone article but we may drop a few general sentences about culture and architecture and place the text on churches and monasteries built in high middle ages in that subchapter. Dehr (talk) 01:58, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I think culture is better to leave alone just as a link but I am open to other suggections. What I am getting from the discussion is that the High Middle Ages, Late Middle Ages and Demographics is proposed to be taken from the old text with some revisions. I - as the new "owner" of previously posted-and-deleted changes or someone else can sum up these revisions and suggestion the final version of updates. Zimmarod (talk) 21:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I will support the high middle ages, late middle ages and demographics chapters from this version of the earlier version of this article. I have a few propositions though. Medieval Khachen was part of the Bagratidt Armenia and Zakarid Armenia. Was it a province or a semi-independent or autonomous land? I would add some of such research. Mongols were there too beginning from 1226, then they vanished, and Tamerlan came from Central Asia. These times after Tamerlan are very obscure for Armenia. These geopolitics it would be a good addition. Sources that we have now are good, including the Caucasian Know, Hewsen, etc, but we can include some Armenian-based authors. Ther is a good book called Արցախի մելիքությունները և մելիքակական տները. A lot of good material there about meliks of Artsakh and their relations with khans and shahs and Russian tsars, etc. Hablabar (talk) 01:56, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

The alternative names for Karabakh are referenced well as mentioned by Dehr but I would add Pavel Shafirov's letter of 14 sept 1733 from George Burnutian's book to back up the Soviet-era compilation about Armenian-Russian relations. Zimmarod (talk) 23:03, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Shafirov's letter is in the first Burnutian volume not in the second. Zimmarod (talk) 23:05, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

For clarity I made it a special section in these talk pages where the three sub-sections in the article are discussed.Winterbliss (talk) 02:47, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

The Zimmarod's version of the article shall be restored especially the medieval section and demographics. I leave it at the discretion of other participants to determine how it should be modified. Oliveriki (talk) 22:01, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Okie dokie, good deal. Zimmarod (talk) 22:22, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

CONSENSUS. I am summing it up now. Consensus is for development of the article using new texts and some previously deleted paragraphs, which were re-owned, verified, and checked for accuracy and validity of references. The consensus involved User:Nocturnal781, User:Winterbliss, User:Dehr, User:Oliveriki, User:Sprutt, User:Hablabar, User:Zimmarod and tentatively User:Vacio. The consensus building exercise took many months and most issues were extensively discussed on talk pages, including opponents such as Grandmaster. Winterbliss (talk) 03:11, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

See above for the consensus. I do not see a single long established editor supporting such a large rewrite. And any substantial changes to this article should be discussed at talk first. Grandmaster 15:36, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

• ... further filibustering, tendentious editing and repeating the same points over and over again will be subject to sanction per WP:TE . See the first part of the discussion in the most recent archived thread. Winterbliss (talk) 04:14, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not completely happy with recent rewriting as there is a serious imbalance and most likely factual accuracy issues. Particularly, the wording "pre-Armenian autochthonous local and migrant tribes" is shaky, simply "autochthonous local and migrant tribes" would serve better. Also, "proto-Armenians" does not appear to be a widely used term. I also suggest moving Artsakh-related info into corresponding article so as to not mix up the two locations. The second concern is broad usage of partisan sources: Chorbajian, Donabedian, Ulubabian etc. The claims they support should be excluded until verifications in reliable third-party sources are given. Brandmeister 15:56, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

• So basically you propose to white wash the article from the fact, that Armenians were the local population, and Turkic tribes were migrants. 18:00, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

The phrase "pre-Armenian autochthonous local and migrant tribes" is a phrase used by Robert Hewsen, see discussion by User:Vacio. Regarding the "concern ... of partisan sources: Chorbajian, Donabedian, Ulubabian etc" - I discussed this with Grandmster above. I note that User:Brandmeister was banned in ruwiki as Grandmaster's meatpuppet. All Grandmaster's suspected meats use the same language and accentuate the same racist ideas in enwiki over, and over and over and over and over again. A lot of food for thought. Winterbliss (talk) 02:15, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Notice

There is a pending AE request related to this article. T. Canens (talk) 10:50, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Hewsen

Vacio, I see no reason for replacing the actual wording of the source with personal interpretation. If you have other sources saying otherwise, quote them too. This one says what it says. Grandmaster 19:40, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Full quote from Hewsen:

Let us take as a starting point the question of the ethnic composition of the population of Arc'ax and Utik, the regions between the Arax and the Kur which were Armenian territory until 387 and which lie in Azerbaidzhan today. To Mnac'akanyan, this territory was originally Armenian; to Bunjatov, it was Albanian. What do we actually know of its history? Our earliest information is to be found in the History of Herodotus. According to this author, the proto-Armenians were migrants who entered the Armenian plateau from Phrygia in the West, i. e. from Anatolia. The general consensus today is that the Armenians, as we know them, represent a fusion between these incoming tribes-conventionally called "Armens" -- and the diverse natives of the plateau who had previously formed a part of the Urartian federation. For this fusion to have taken place, however, the so-called "Armens" would have had to have spread across the plateau from west to east and, though we know little of the circumstances attending this migration, we do catch glimpses of it taking place. Herodotus, writing ca. 450 B. C., makes it clear that in his time the Armenians inhabited only the western third of the plateau, and that to the east of them lay pre-Armenian peoples-Saspeirians and Alarodians, - who had previously formed components of the Urartian state. Xenophon, who travelled through Armenia in the winter of 401-400 B. C., confirms the data of Herodotus, for when he entered the territory of the Phasians and Taokhians, in what was later called north-central Armenia, it is clear that he had left the Armenians behind.

After the fall of the Persian Empire to Alexander in 330 B. C., the Orontids, who had been the Achaemenian governors of Armenia, were allowed to keep control of their province, but, by the time they assumed the royal title in ca. 190 B. C., we find them residing at Armavir in the Ararat plain. Obviously, the fall of the Persian Empire had provided an opportunity for continued Armenian expansion towards the east, so that in the century between Xenophon's journey and the establishment of the Orontid monarchy, the Armenians, under Orontid leadership, must have secured control over the central Armenian plateau.

From Strabo we learn that under King Artashes (188-ca. 161 B. C.), the Armenians expanded in all directions at the expense of their neighbors. Specifically we are told that at this time they acquired Caspiane and 'Phaunitis', the second of which can only be a copyist's error for Saunitis, i. e. the principality of Siwnik '.Thus, it was only under Artashes, in the second century B. C., that the Armenians conquered Siwnik' and Caspiane and, obviously, the lands of Arc'ax and Utik', which lay between them. These lands, we are told, were taken from the Medes. Mnac'akanyan's notion that these lands were already Armenian and were re-conquered by the Armenians at this time thus rests on no evidence at all and indeed contradicts what little we do know of Armenian expansion to the east. Since these eastern regions had formed part of the Persian province of Media before the time of Alexander, it seems likely that if they were seized by the Armenians from the Medes a century or so later, then they had probably remained a part of Media throughout that time. To attempt to demonstrate that these eastern territories were always Armenian by quoting Movses Xorenac'i, as Mnac'akanyan does, is hazardous in the extreme. Whoever the enigmatic Xorenac'i may have been, whenever he may have lived, and however valuable his compilation of antiquities may be as the received tradition of the Armenian people, it has been amply demonstrated that his historical knowledge is highly defective even for the most recent periods with which he deals, and that as a source for early Armenian history his book must be used only with the greatest care. The same is true for the other texts which Mnac'akanyan marshals to his cause; all are late and none of them can be used as sources for the extent of Armenian penetration to the east or the boundaries between Armenia and Albania prior to the time of Artashes, let alone the time of Alexander. As for the Armenian origin of the House of Siwnik' asserted by Movses, this is highly dubious, and we have evidence of Siwnian separateness and ethnic particularlism as late as the sixth century A.D.

What do we know of the native population of these regions - Arc'ax and Utik - prior to the Armenian conquest? Unfortunately, not very much. Greek, Roman, and Armenian authors together provide us with the names of several peoples living there, however - Utians, in Otene, Mycians, Caspians, Gargarians, Sakasenians, Gelians, Sodians, Lupenians, Balasanians, Parsians and Parrasians - and these names are sufficient to tell us that, whatever their origin, they were certainly not Armenian. Moreover, although certain Iranian peoples must have settled here during the long period of Persian and Median rule, most of the natives were not even Indo-Europeans.

Robert H. Hewsen, "Ethno-History and the Armenian Influence upon the Caucasian Albanians," in Thomas J. Samuelian, ed., Classical Armenian Culture: Influences and Creativity. Pennsylvania: Scholars Press, 1982.

As one can see, Hewsen uses the terms proto-Armenians and pre-Armenian in relation to Urartians, and not the population of Artsakh/Karabakh. So the term should not be used in the article, as the source uses it in a different context. And I do not see any reason for replacing the actual words of Hewsen that population was non-Armenian and non-Indo-European with strange wording like: The ancient population of the region consisted of various pre-Armenian autochthonous local and migrant tribes who were mostly non-Indo-Europeans (as the rest of the Armenian Plateau). The source never used the words "Pre-Armenian" to describe the population of the region, and clearly says that the original population was non-Armenian, which for some strange reason is removed from the article. I can ask the wiki community to have a look at this issue, and provide third opinion, if needed. However I think it is quite obvious that the source is misquoted. Grandmaster 20:50, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Also, this line:

According to the prevailing western theory, these natives intermarried with the so called proto-Armenians who came to the region after its inclusion into Armenia in the 2nd or, possibly earlier, in 4th century BC

refers to Atlas of Hewsen, but I do not see in any text there anything like this. Could you please provide an accurate quote? Grandmaster 19:51, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

I have spent a lot of time explaining above, why that this section needs to be rewritten and why a quotation out of its context is not plausible. I expect that other users will do the same before changing it.

• As I said earlier, for a number of reasons I don't agree with a quotation that is out of its context, that's why I suggested to rewrite the passage in a way that would reflect the theory of Hewsen without cherry-picking just one or two word from his study. Why are these words out of their context, first because Hewsen speaks of a historical time when the formation of the Armenian people wasn't complete yet, so the words "were not of Armenian origins" does not make any sense when it is represented out of the context were Hewsen used them (as Meowy already write below). And this context is that Hewsen rebuted the claims of Mnacakanyan who argued that Artsakh and Utik were originally Armenian when they became part of Armenian Kingdom:

Mnac'akanyan, on the other hand, oversimplifies as well. He is certainly wrong in claiming that the lands between the Kur and the Arax were "originally" Armenian (...)

— Ethno-History, p 34.

As for the terms proto Armenian and pre Armenian, these are absolutely different terms! Hewsen does not call the Urartians proto Armenians anywhere (and in fact there are few historians believing in such thing). And then, Hewsen and all historians use the term pre Armenian to describe all (non Armenian) ethnic entities that lived in various regions of historical Armenia before they intermarried with (proto) Armenians and were "Armenized". "Pre Armenian" literary means "before Armenian" and logically there is no reason to discuss whether the non Armenian peoples of Artsakh and Utik can be described with this term or not. Here a quote from Hewsen to confirm that:

Generally speaking, the Armenians appear to have avoided the more remote mountains within which some of the early peoples appear to have taken refuge. Thus, numerous pre-Armenian peoples long survived, and, as Adontz (1908) has demonstrated, ethnonyms mentioned in Urartian, Hittite, and Assyrian records survived until far longer into the historic period than has perhaps always been appreciated. Indeed, some of these names are recognizable one thousand years after the fall of Urartu, when the Armenians begin to leave us written records of their own. Most of these peoples were, of course, more or less armenized—many of them doubtless completely so—but many of them, including those quite assimilated, seem to have continued to be governed by the descendants of their own ancestral rulers: the clan heads, tribal chiefs, princes, and kinglets of old. All of these local rulers were eventually incorporated into the complex body of the Armenian nobility—the Armenian princely houses—of which there were some seventy. The names of many of these houses betray either their pre-Armenian or non-Armenian origin: the Sala (one of the pre-Armenian peoples) are represented by the Princes Sghkuni, the Manda by the Princes Mandakuni, the Pala or Bala by the Princes Paluni. In the same way, the names of the various Armenian districts betray the names of their early inhabitants: the Pala by Paghnatun and Balahovit 'Pala House (or tribe)' and 'Bala Valley', the Mardians (Medes?) by Mardastan and Mardaghi, the Mannaians by Mananaghi, the Mushki by Moskikhe and Mukhank' and perhaps by Mokk', the Ainians by Hani, the Drilloi or Driles perhaps by Daranaghi and Derjan, the Udins by Utlk', and so on.All of these names attest to the diversity of pre-Armenian ethnic elements (...)

— Robert H. Hewsen. Armenia: A historial Atlas. The University of Chicago Press. 2000, p. 10

• Second reason why the quote that from Ethnohistory that Grandmaster/Brandmeister added to the article is not plausible, is because Hewsen adjusted some of his statements in Ethnohistory, in particular the passage that is being quoted, he came to a conclusion that some things a not certain. For instance, in Ethno-History Hewsen suggested that Gargarians were one of the native tribes of Artsakh and Utik, but in Atlas he makes clear that they were possibly migrants:

Classical sources place the Gargarians in the North Caucasus but Armenian sources place them in this region, possibly as the result of migration.

— A Historical Atlas, p. 41.

But most importantly, while Hewsen wrote in Ethnohistory that Artsakh was inhabited by various tribes, in A historial Atlas he clearly says that this not certain.

Is seems likely that except of Siwnik, eastern Armenia was not much more than armenized, if that. Sakasen, at least originally, was obviously a Scythian (Saka) enclave in the country, the Utians were almost certainly a Caucasian tribe, the names Gardman and Gargaracik suggest a Georgian connection, but we have no idea to what ethnic group the Kaspians may have belonged. Siwnik, too, had a mixed population that doubtless contained many Armenians but, as Abrahamyan notes, also included such other ethnic groups as Scythians, Balas and Persians and, moreover, evinced a strong tendency to separate from Armenia as late as the seventh century. Arc'ax, a stronghold of Armenian national identity from at least the ninth century, may also have been originally more varied in ethnic character; we cannot be sure,

— Robert H. Hewsen, Armenia: A Historical Atlas, p. 58.

So, once again, I don't see any good reason to add this quote. And it is not acceptable to quote just one or two words from a extended history and neglect the adjustments that the author made in his recent study. --vacio 15:46, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Vacio, I fail to understand how your arguments can undermine the above quote from Hewsen and refer to it as 'cherry-picking', the term so many users often misuse. The term in inapplicable in the case where Grandmaster posted the whole page from Hewsen for everyone here to see how the quote works in the context - precisely to avoid what you call cherry-picking. Whether those ancient tribes of Karabakh were Gargarians or not is not important. And just because Hewsen somehwere says "various tribes", it does not necessarily mean Armenians were among them. The matter of the fact is that at the time of the Armenian conquest the population there, however multicultural, was not of Armenian origin. Parishan (talk) 18:53, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Parishan, with much respect, you're missing the point of the discussion above, it seems that you only read the last half of it. Also it is not certain whether the original population of Artsakh was multicultural multiethnic or monoethnic (Hewsen first believed it was multiethnic, but later wrote it wasn't certain). --vacio 07:19, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

I also see no reason for replacement of non-Armenian with pre-Armenian, even if Hewsen used that term in his other work (btw, in that other work he says "pre-Armenian or non-Armenian", i.e. uses both terms at the same time). In this particular one he says pretty clear that the aboriginal population was non-Armenian and mostly non-Indo-European. Why should we substitute that with other words, without making it clear that the original population was unrelated to the ethnic groups that live there now? Also, he says further in his work that this original population was absorbed by both Armenian and Turkic people (i.e. Christians were assimilated by Armenians, Muslims by Azerbaijanis), so calling it pre-Armenian is not exactly correct. We should use simple wording, the same as the author used in his cited work. And also, while he changed his opinion about the origin of Gargarians, I do not see that he changed his opinion about non-Armenian origin of the original population. And where exactly he says that Armenians came into Karabakh in the 4th century B.C.? Grandmaster 20:10, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

I did not suggest to replace the term non-Armenian with pre-Armenian, as I asserted above both are essentially synonymous. So I don't object in using the term non-Armenian, but I object against chary-picking some words of the author which is a significant misuse of the source.

Also you overlook the following facts by saying that original population was absorbed by both Armenian and Turkic people. First, that phrase does not refer to the population of Artsakh (which is covered by this article) but the whole region of Caucasian Albania as well and the people of Artsakh were never absorbed by the Turkic tribesmen.

As far as we can tell, then, the population of southeastern Caucasia, whether north of the River Kur or south of it, consisted of a great variety of peoples: Caucasian mountaineers (Including Albanians), proto-Georgian elements, Scythian enclaves, Iranian, Armenian, and Arab settlers, other miscellaneous interlopers (including some Hungarians) and, above all, a veritable flood of Turkic tribesmen, Ultimately the Christian elements in this heterogenous mass must have been assimilated to the Armenians (and, in part, the Georgians), while the Islamic population was absorbed by the Azeri Turks

— Ethno-Histroy, p 35

Second, the absorption of some Caucasian ethnic elements by Turkic tribesmen took place in an completely different historical era, than the one we deal with here.

The modern Armenian population of nearby Šak'ē and Nuxa probably derives from the dislocations caused by the Turko-Mongolian invasions of the eleventh to thirteenth centuries,

— Ethno-Histroy, p 34

Third, Hewsen himself uses the term pre-Armenians for Udians of Utik (as quoted above), so your opinion that the supposed various tribes of Artsakh and Utik can not be described as pre-Armenian, is wrong. --vacio 07:19, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Dbachman is right, and Vacio's consensus version is just fine. Perfectionism demonstrated with phrases like "most certainly of non-Armenian origin" which are cherry-picked to discount the region's association with Armenians should be abandoned. Don't forget that hewsen disagrees with Mnacakanyan and Ulubabyan. While we should give preference to Western scholars like Hewsen, Mnacakanyan and Ulubabyan cannot be discounted as was argued earlier in the discussion at least because their works were endorsed in Western scholarship (e.g. Walker and "Caucasian Knot"). So, Vacio's version should stay. Dehr (talk) 02:47, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

It cannot stay unless you clearly indicate where exactly what you call 'cherry-picking' occurs. Is there any other way the phrase "were certainly not of Armenian origin" can be interpreted in the given context? Just because it looks like it can be twisted any way you want does not mean that is the case. Hewsen made it very clear that the tribes living in Karabakh prior to the Armenian conquest were not Armenian. Parishan (talk) 06:58, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

And another thing, Dehr. You have been taking liberties with the word 'meatpuppetry' quite a lot, which I would not do, if I were you. I have been known to contribute to articles of this scope and in fact bother to explain my edits at talkpage, unlike users like Sardur who appear out of the blue and revert to versions which you favour, which seems more like meatpuppetry than anything else to me; and suspiciously so after the article has been placed on the recent editor restriction. Parishan (talk) 07:05, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Parishan, please read the elaboration above where it is explained why it is 'cherry-picking' and then please comment on the arguments there. Also, if or when you have acquainted yourself with all Hewsen wrote about the ancient population of Artsakh in both "Ethno-History" and "Atlas", it would be much better to suggest a consensus version of the passage on this subject, rather than repeating that something is not cherry-picking. That would be much more constructive and I am open to discuss any suggestion. --vacio 07:25, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Vacio, believe you me, prior to posting yesterday's comment I had read your arguments three times. I cannot wrap my head around how the original settlement of Gargarians or the phrase "various tribes" contradict the fact that Armenians were not inhabiting Karabakh at the time of its conquest. That was precisely why I addressed my concerns to you personally. Parishan (talk) 07:38, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

I will only believe if you comment to my arguments and if you make constructive suggestions for a consensus version. --vacio 07:45, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

I cannot comment on arguments that seem irrelevant to the topic. I am not going to comment on your speculation with regard to 'various tribes' possibly including Armenians, because there is simply no basis for that. The juice of your argument revolves around references to the use of the terms 'proto-Armenian' and 'pre-Armenian' which are in fact unapplicable to the second century BC context when Karabakh was conquered. Thus the terms 'pre-Armenian' and 'non-Armenian' cannot act as synonyms in this case. Parishan (talk) 07:57, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Parishan, once again you make the impression that you significantly unaware of the context and the subject of the discussion above. Also you've completely misunderstood my argumentation above, so please don't ascribe to me claims that I haven't made . --vacio 06:59, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I see this as an attempt to cover up the non-Armenian character of the original population of the region by using the words like pre-Armenian, proto-Armenian, etc, instead of stating like the source did that the population was non-Armenian. Grandmaster 08:06, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

That's a baseless accusation. First, I never objected using the word non-Armenian as well (but the terms pre-Armenian, proto-Armenian are not my invention). Secondly, the context of the passage makes it completely clear that they were not Armenian in the modern sense of the term. --vacio 06:59, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

If you do not object to the use of the word non-Armenian, why then you removed it? Also, if population was not Armenian in the modern sense of term, are you saying that it was Armenian is some other sense? I think the text should use plain statements, and say that the original population was not Armenian. Later it became Armenized, but the process was slow, and most of the tribes populating the area were still distinct ethnic groups when those regions passed to Albania. That's pretty much what the source says. Grandmaster 07:49, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Btw, the following part:

According to the prevailing western theory, these natives intermarried with the so called proto-Armenians who came to the region after its inclusion into Armenia in the 2nd or, possibly earlier, in 4th century BC.

Is also a misinterpretation of the source. Hewsen says nothing about any intermarriage in the region in question, he only mentions the conquest. Intermarriage could be between the ancestors of Armenians and Urartians, but that is a different region. I suggest we remove the above line, and rewrite it according to the source. Also, I still did not find in the quotes provided by Vacio any mention of the 4th century B.C. Grandmaster 08:47, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I sugest to rewrite the above line as follows:

According to the prevailing academic view, the region was conquered by Armenians from Medes in the second century B. C.

This is based on the following text:

From Strabo we learn that under King Artashes (188-ca. 161 B. C.), the Armenians expanded in all directions at the expense of their neighbors. Specifically we are told that at this time they acquired Caspiane and 'Phaunitis', the second of which can only be a copyist's error for Saunitis, i. e. the principality of Siwnik '.Thus, it was only under Artashes, in the second century B. C., that the Armenians conquered Siwnik' and Caspiane and, obviously, the lands of Arc'ax and Utik', which lay between them. These lands, we are told, were taken from the Medes.

Also, I propose to change the line:

The ancient population of the region consisted of various autochthonous local and migrant tribes who were mostly non-Indo-Europeans (as the rest of the Armenian Plateau)

and rewrite it as:

The ancient autochthonous population is believed to consist of various tribes of non-Armenian and mostly non-Indo-European origin.

This reflects the concern of Vacio that in his recent work Hewsen seems to make no definite statement. Grandmaster 08:57, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Iranica

Another dubious statement:

Other scholars suggest that the proto-Armenians settled in the region as early as in the 7th century BC.

Reference is to Iranica:

But in the same source a different author says a different thing:

Armina under Darius and Xerxes had much narrower boundaries than the future Armenia of the Artaxiads and the Arsacids. The “Armenians” with the inhabitants of Paktyikē (?) and other peoples of the northwest formed the 13th satrapy, whose tribute was fixed at 400 talents (Herodotus 3.93). The Armenians in the strict sense must then have lived in areas between Cappadocia, the Tigris, the Euphrates, and the lake of Van. They are clearly distinguished from the Alarodians ( = Urartians) who occupied the future province of Ayrarat ( = Urartu) on the Araxes and with the Saspires (further northeast) and the Matienians (further southeast) formed the 18th satrapy (ibid., 3.94, cf. 7.79).

If in the 5th century B.C. they lived around the lake Van, they could not have reached the river Kura 2 centuries earlier. Contradictory info in the same source. We can ask for a third party opinion about the use of this source. Grandmaster 20:06, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

The passage which is apparently referenced here goes

Bordering on Media, Cappadocia, and Assyria, the Armenians settled, according to classical sources (beginning with Herodotus and Xenophon), in the east Anatolian mountains along the Araxes (Aras) river and around Mt. Ararat, Lake Van, Lake Rezaiyeh, and the upper courses of the Euphrates and Tigris; they extended as far north as the Cyrus (Kur) river. To that region they seem to have immigrated only about the 7th century B.C.

so, technically, what is suggested here is that the Armenians did not settle along the Kura "as early as" but rather "as late as" about the 7th century BC. The question is not whether this is the historical truth. It is just about substantiating that this date has indeed been thrown around in the relevant literature. Anyone who is not a natioanlist knows that is is completely futile to decide whether the pre-proto-Armenians first settled on the Kura in the 7th or in the 5th century BC. For all practical purposes, this is deep prehistory for the region, and giving a rough estimate with a margin of error of a century or two under these circumstances is being rather precise. If we had an ethnic conflict in Switzerland, people would troll Misplaced Pages over the question whether the Helvetii first settled on Lake Geneva in the 7th, the 5th or just the 3rd or 2nd century BC. Because there is no ethnic conflict today, people do not feel compelled to spend time debating unanswerable about ancient history. Whenever you touch a paragraph which is about ancient history or prehistory, you need to detach yourself from whatever modern ethnic or political ideas you may have, otherwise you are not discussing ancient history, you are cherry-picking ancient history to write an essay about your private views on contemporary issues. --dab (𒁳) 08:16, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree with your opinion about nationalistic interpretation of the ancient history. But the problem here is how to use Iranica in the context of this article, when 2 different authors state conflicting views in the same source. We have an article by R. Schmitt, who says 7th century, and another article on the same topic by M. L. Chaumont (who is more specialist on the topic of South Caucasus, because she wrote in Iranica the article about Caucasian Albania), and she says that around the 5th century B.C. Armenians lived around the lake of Van, and this is more in line with the mainstream scholarly opinion, for instance, with what Hewsen wrote. She says that Armenians "clearly distinguished from the Alarodians ( = Urartians) who occupied the future province of Ayrarat ( = Urartu) on the Araxes". Probably we need to state both views, as we cannot say that Iranica supports only the 7th century. The opinion of authors of Iranica in this regard is inconclusive. Grandmaster 10:52, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

I would also appreciate your opinion with regard to interpretation of Hewsen. In particular, I mean the removal of this statement from Hewsen: I believe the source must be quoted as close to the original text as possible, to avoid adding your own views instead of the views of the author. Please see the relevant quote from this author in the above section. Hewsen clearly states that the original population of the present Nagorno-Karabakh was of non-Armenian origin, and that the aboriginal tribes were mostly of Caucasian stock (further in his article). Vacio removes that statement and replaces it with more vague "various pre-Armenian autochthonous local and migrant tribes". If the source states that they were non-Armenian and mostly Caucasian, why cannot we say the same? After all, this is what the author says. I think replacing non-Armenian with pre-Armenian is wrong, because that is not what the author writes about the population of this region. Hewsen uses the term "pre-Armenian" to refer to Alarodians (Urartians), who did not live in the present day Karabakh, they populated a different area. Plus, this original population was assimilated not only by Armenians, which is another reason why it is wrong to call it pre-Armenian. Grandmaster 11:14, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

If we want Hewsen to appear as an idiot, returning the removed statement would be a pretty good way to do it. Does Hewsen actually think that Herodotus and Strabo and Xenophon should be read like they were modern guidebooks! All these names he seems to think are separate ethnic groups are just place names, for example, "Sasperians" are inhabitants of Sper (modern Ispir), Alarodians are inhabitants of the Alarod (Ayrarat / Ararat) region, Taokhians are inhabitants of Taok (present-day north-east Turkey, medieval Taik). Each region would quite naturally have had its own petty ruler - but that doesn't mean each place was inhabited by unrelated peoples. Nothing at all can be construed from these names regarding the ethnic identity of their inhabitants, and it is laughable to try to associate in this close way anyone living in BC dates with modern nations or ethnic groups. How can he still talk about non-existant Armenian migrations from somewhere nobody has ever been able to identify. If Hewsen is that certain that he can identify those who, 2500 years ago, are "certainly not Armenian" lets see him having a go at the impossible task of defining those who, 2500 years ago, are "certainly Armenian"! Populations, especially ancient populations, generally stay put - it is culture influences and identities that move. Meowy 13:03, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

You may agree or disagree with Hewsen, but our personal ideas have no place here. Chaumont says pretty much the same as Hewsen. The mainstream science identifies Alarodians with Urartians, and Urartians are considered to be people of non-Armenian origin. They are believed to be related to the people of Caucasus. Hewsen presents the mainstream views, and explain why the original population is considered to be non-Armenian. Whether we like it or not, we should stick to what the general consensus among the scholars is. Grandmaster 19:01, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Saying "scholars said it" doesn't excuse silly concepts! The Uratian civilisation was long gone when Herodotus wrote about "Alarodians", nor was the heartland of Urartu based in the Ararat region. What did it mean, 2500 years ago in this region, to be "Armenian" or "non-Armenian"? Meowy 19:44, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

It is your opinion that it is stupid. We must only report the prevailing scholarly opinion, regardless whether we think it is stupid or not. Grandmaster 00:25, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

@GM, I don't see a contradiction between the quote above and the one cited in the article, the two passages say two different things. Passage 1 defines the geographical region where the proto-Armenians were concentrated (lived in the strict sense...) i.e. they were dominant between the various ethnic entities, Passage 2 says where the first proto-Armenians settled to the north of that region (they extended as far north as the...), i.e. where they were not majority. --vacio 14:26, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the source 2 says that in the 5th century B.C. "The Armenians in the strict sense must then have lived in areas between Cappadocia, the Tigris, the Euphrates, and the lake of Van". That does not mean they were concentrated, it means that they inhabited that particular region, which did not extend to the banks of Kura. So the opinions of 2 scholars clearly contradict. Grandmaster 00:25, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Your argumentation is still not convincing. In fact you are asserting that in the strict sense would mean exclusively, when you say that according to passage 2 no Armenians could have lived/settled other than areas between Cappadocia, the Tigris, the Euphrates, and the lake of Van. --vacio 06:41, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Well yes, strict sense means exclusively, i.e. no significant compact settlements existed outside of the described area. I'm not proposing to exclude contradictory statements, just describe that the views in this publication about this particular issue differ. Grandmaster 08:18, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

They don't differ, they perfectly fit with each other. You are artificially trying to find a contradiction between them. Passage 2 does not say there were everywhere "significant compact settlements" till the Kura, it just says how far the Armenians extended. --vacio 07:07, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I would not say that they fit. I don't see that Chaumont mentions Kura as the boundary of Armenian expansion in the 5th century. But this is not such an important issue at the moment. Let's leave it for later and ask for more third opinions, maybe. Grandmaster 08:22, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Schiltberger

Are we still suppose to justify our edits? because I think the edit summary was sufficiently explanatory. VartanM (talk) 16:47, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you are. So far you contribution to the discussion was zero. Please explain why exactly you removed the quotes from Schiltberger? He had no idea about geography, for him Babylon and Tiflis were also located in Armenia, and he believed every fairy tale his Armenian friends were telling him (that's what the notes for his book say). This is why the primary sources must be used with care. Plus he never said that Karabakh was inhabited by Armenians, he said that Armenians also lived there, but the land was ruled by "infidels", i.e. Muslims. Grandmaster 19:01, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not very happy with blind reverts by users who contributed nothing to the discussion. Already twice the accurate quote from Schiltberger was removed and replaced with an inaccurate statement. Schiltberger wrote: The Infidels call the plain, in the Infidel tongue, Karawag. The Infidels posses it all, and yet in stands in Ermenia. There are also Armenians in the villages, but they must pay tribute to the Infidels. This is reverted to the version which states: Johann Schiltberger (1380–c. 1440), a German traveler and writer, observed in the beginning of the 15th century that Karabakh's lowlands divided by the Kura River are populated by Armenians and mentioned Karabakh as part of Armenia. However if you compare that edit with the actual quote from the source, you'll see that Schiltberger never said that Karabakh's lowlands are populated by Armenians, quite the contrary, he said that Armenians also live there, i.e. among other people, and that the region was possessed by Infidels, i.e. Muslims. This kind of reverts restoring inaccurate info are absolutely unacceptable, especially by users who never bothered to explain at talk the reasons for their reverts. Grandmaster 00:42, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

1. Schiltberger's experience with Karabakh is a personal account of a witness , p. 86 ("been there", "lived among them")). He said he traveled there and he describes what he saw. This cannot be compared with his opinion about Tiflis, Babylon etc. which are opinions that were criticized in secondary sources. 2. "Infidels possess it all" means infidels (Muslims) control it politically. Controlling tells us nothing about whether there were actually any Muslims in lowlands of "Karawag." What was the proportion of Armenian vs. infidels/Muslims "in the villages" is unclear. This tells us that there were Armenians in Karabakh's lowlands as late as the mid-15th century and this land was considered to be part of Armenia, at least geographically and at most politically. The takeaway from Schiltberger's writing is that there were Armenians living in the Karabakh plain (Mugan Steppe) in the the mid-15th century. Were there infidels living there too? He does not report that but says that Muslims control Armenians economically and politically. 3. The opinion of Telfer does not belong in the body of text anyway according to WP standards. Dehr (talk) 02:22, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Personal or not, his knowledge of geography is highly defective, which could be demonstrated by him including Tiflis and Babylon as parts of Armenia. And he said that infidels possessed, i.e. owned the region, and Armenians also lived there. The fact that Armenians also lived there shows that they were not the majority, otherwise the author would not use the word "also". Now please explain why you removed the accurate quotes from Schiltberger and replaced them with your own interpretation again? Why you removed the parts that said infidels possessed the region? This is exactly what is wrong with your editing, you make your own interpretation of primary sources instead of quoting them accurately. Grandmaster 08:04, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

In general, this whole Schiltberger quote does not belong to this article. It is more suitable for the article about Karabakh, since he wrote about the lowland part of the region. Grandmaster 08:15, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

One-third of Nagorno Karabakh within NKAO boundaries was a lowland in Mardakert, Martuni, and Askeran districts. So, Schiltberger belongs to this article I think. Zimmarod (talk) 23:11, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

New start

I rolled back the large rewrite by the recently created accounts, since it had no clear consensus at talk. Other than a bunch of suspicious accounts with limited history of contributions, no one supported it. I think any substantial changes to the article need to be discussed at talk and achive a consensus, before being included. Grandmaster 08:41, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I see this as an obvious vandalism - you undid the edits of Oliveriki, Winterbliss, Dehr, Sardur, VartanM, Vacio, the edits which also enjoy the support of Zimmarod, Nocturnal781 and Meawy. This is vandalism and nothing but, and it will be treated like that. Oliveriki (talk) 15:59, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Just returned from a vacation WOW ... well ... Grandmaster vandalized the edits of Oliveriki, Winterbliss, Dehr, Sardur, VartanM, Vacio and Sprutt, Hablabar and VahagnAvagian too!!!!! This is an atomic bomb of a disruption! Perhaps Grandmaster bestowed upon himself the crown of an administrator already that is how arrogant this move is. All the removed parts of text were underwritten by TWELVE accounts (count whom I mentioned) and post-owned by me as Golbez asked, and extensively discussed with a consensus. Basically you are saying editors like me can say whatever we want and establish whatever consensus, all this would not matter to you from the start. Nice. This is unprecedented I guess for any protected article. Zimmarod (talk) 22:46, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

You "returned from vacation" the same day as Winterbliss was banned. What a coincidence. Grandmaster 12:44, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

This is a FULL WARNING to Grandmster. Zimmarod (talk) 23:08, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Those edits were made originally by socks, and later reinstalled by 7 new accounts (2 of which are now banned). Sardur and VartanM made no contributions either to the article or the talk page, other than reverting. We have a discussion with Vacio above, and his edits remain. I'm trying to reach a consensus with him, and anyone welcome to join the discussion. As for the large rewrite by the new accounts, it had no clear consensus at talk. I cannot consider it a consensus when 7 new accounts pop up here, reinsert the edits of the banned user and claim that they have a consensus among themselves. That's not how it works. I will ask the community to look into the quality of those edits, but in the meantime no unilateral large rewrites should be made without a consensus at talk, and by that I mean the consensus with long established editors, and not the newly created accounts with very few contribs. Grandmaster 10:02, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Agree. Also, the arguments based on the article itself, particularly sources, are far better than those based on the amount of users involved or those like "neither do you". Brandmeister 12:33, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Protected

The article has been fully protected for one month due to the resumption of the dispute after the AE discussion of April 7 on the Nagorno-Karabakh article. Use {{editrequest}} to ask for changes that are uncontroversial or are supported by consensus. Please participate in the RfC just below this message. See if you want to revise the question posed in the RfC or add new topics. If you object to the protection open a thread at WP:AE. EdJohnston (talk) 13:45, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

RfC: Recent edits

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The use of the primary sources in the article Nagorno-Karabakh, and in general the quality of the recent edits to that article. Grandmaster 12:40, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

My concern with this large rewrite is that it mostly contains POV, original research based on interpretation of the primary sources, and secondary sources used are mostly partisan. First off, this large rewrite was originally made by the socks of the banned user, and was reinstalled by 7 new accounts that were registered after those socks were banned. The situation that followed was described by Golbez here: Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Xebulon/Archive#08 February 2012, and later admins at WP:AE placed this article on additional restrictions. 2 of those accounts were indef blocked since then, but the edit war continues. I'm leaving aside all the behavioral issues now, and I want to ask the community about the actual merits of the edits that the sock accounts and new accounts appearing since then have been trying to reinstall. The problem with those edits is that they are based on interpretation of the primary sources, and secondary sources used are almost exclusively partisan, i.e. represent the Armenian POV. For instance, this chunk of text:

Whatever little is known about Nagorno-Karabakh and other eastern Armenian-peopled territories in the early Middle Ages comes from the text ''History of the Land of Aghvank'' (Պատմություն Աղվանից Աշխարհի) attributed to two Armenian authors: ] and Movses Daskhurantsi.<ref name="Movsēs Dasxuranc'i 1961, pp. 3-4">The History of the Caucasian Albanians by Movsēs Dasxuranc'i. Translated by Charles Dowsett. London: Oxford University Press, 1961, pp. 3-4 “Introduction”</ref><ref name="Hacikyan, Basmajian, Franchuk 94-99"/> This text, written in ], in essence represents the history of Armenia’s provinces of ] and ].<ref name="Robert H. Hewsen 1982"/> ], repeating ], mentions that the very name “Aghvank”/“Albania” is of Armenian origin, and relates it to the Armenian word “aghu” (աղու, meaning “kind,” “benevolent”.<ref>Moses Khorenatsi. History of the Armenians, translated from Old Armenian by Robert W. Thomson. Harvard University Press, 1978, p.</ref> Khorenatsi states that ''aghu'' was a nickname given to Prince Arran, whom the Armenian king Vagharshak I appointed as governor of northeastern provinces bordering on Armenia. According to a legendary tradition reported by ], Arran was a descendant of Sisak, the ancestor of the Siunid dynasty that ruled Armenia's province of ], and thus a great-grandson of the ancestral eponym of the Armenians, the ].<ref>Chorbajian, Levon; Donabedian Patrick; Mutafian, Claude. The Caucasian Knot: The History and Geo-Politics of Nagorno-Karabagh. NJ: Zed Books, 1994, p. 55, 56</ref><ref>Movses Kalankatuatsi. History of the Land of Aluank, translated from Old Armenian by Sh. V. Smbatian. Yerevan: Matenadaran (Institute of Ancient Manuscripts), 1984, p. 43</ref> Kaghankatvatsi and another Armenian author, ], confirm Arran’s belonging to Hayk’s blood line by calling Arranshahiks “a Haykazian dynasty.”<ref>Kirakos Gandzaketsi. “Kirakos Gandzaketsi’s history of the Armenians,” Sources of the Armenian Tradition. New York, 1986, p. 67</ref><ref>Chorbajian, Levon; Donabedian Patrick; Mutafian, Claude. The Caucasian Knot: The History and Geo-Politics of Nagorno-Karabagh. NJ: Zed Books, 1994, p. 55, 56</ref>

The POV is obvious from the first line "Nagorno-Karabakh and other eastern Armenian-peopled territories". First off, as is obvious from the previous sections in this article, the territory had a mixed population in antiquity, and "eastern Armenian-peopled territories" is quite a strange combination of words, which was never used by Dowsett, so the source is used inappropriately. Further, the article has a line: This text, written in Old Armenian, in essence represents the history of Armenia’s provinces of Artsakh and Utik, with reference to Robert Hewsen, however this author says no such thing. And then go speculations about Armenian origin of the land on the basis of the legend about Hayk and Arran, with claims like: According to a legendary tradition reported by Khorenatsi, Arran was a descendant of Sisak, the ancestor of the Siunid dynasty that ruled Armenia's province of Syunik, and thus a great-grandson of the ancestral eponym of the Armenians, the Forefather Hayk. Kaghankatvatsi and another Armenian author, Kirakos Gandzaketsi, confirm Arran’s belonging to Hayk’s blood line by calling Arranshahiks “a Haykazian dynasty.” But the same Hewsen to whom the reference is made considers such use of the primary sources inappropriate:

As for the Armenian origin of the House of Siwnik' asserted by Movses, this is highly dubious, and we have evidence of Siwnian separateness and ethnic particularlism as late as the sixth century A.D.

....

Actually, all Movses Xorenac'i asserts is that the House of Siwnik' was of Haykid origin which, as Toumanoff has shown (Studies, 108, 216, 218, 222, 469), should be taken as meaning only that it was of immemorial origin; i.e. that it had been sovereign in Siwnik for so long that no one remembered its origin.

The whole Haykid argument is unscholarly, as Haykid only means immemorial origin. Reference to legendary persons who never existed to claim origin of the territory is not a good argument and is rejected by serious scholars. If this legend needs to be mentioned at all, it should be explained what Haykid means. Further:

In the 5th century’s Nagorno Karabakh, King Vachagan II the Pious, ruler of the Kingdom of Aghvank, adopted the so-called ''Constitution of Aghven'' (Սահմանք Կանոնական) — a code of civil regulations consisting of 21 articles and composed after a series of talks with leading clerical and civil figures of Armenia and Aghvank (e.g. Bishop of ]).<ref>Б.УЛУБАБЯН. К Освещению Проблем Истории И Культуры Кавказской Албании И Восточных Провинций Армении. К освещению проблем истории и культуры Кавказской Албании и восточных провинций Армении. Составитель: П. М. Мурадян; Издательство Ереванского гос. университета, 1991. </ref><ref>The History of the Caucasian Albanians by Movsēs Dasxuranc'i. Translated by Charles Dowsett. London: Oxford University Press, 1961, “Constitution.”</ref> In the 8th century, the ''Constitution of Aghven'' was included in the ''Armenian Book of Laws'' (Կանոնագիրք Հայոց) by the head of the ] Hovhan III Odznetsi (] from 717-728), thus laying out a blueprint for later-era Armenian legal texts, such as the ''Lawcode'' written in the 12th century by ].<ref>''Constitution of Aghven'' was included in the ''Armenian Book of Laws'' (Կանոնագիրք Հայոց) in the 8th century by Catholicos Hovhannes III Odznetsi. The displayed page mentions names of 14 dignitaries who signed the Constitution, and includes the endorsement of King Vachagan the Pious. Source: Movses Kaghankatvatsi’s “History of the Land of Aghvank:” exhibit at Matenadaran (Armenia’s Institute of Ancient Manuscripts) ] ]. Source: Բաբկեն ՀԱՐՈՒԹՅՈՒՆՅԱՆ. ՍԲ ՀՈՎՀԱՆՆԵՍ Գ ՕՁՆԵՑԻ. Հայկական Հանրագիտարան. 1977.</ref><ref>].''Lawcode''. Vagharshapat, 1880, (in Armenian).</ref><ref>Mkhitar Gosh. The Lawcode, translated from Old Armenian by Robert W. Thomson. NJ: Rodopi, 2000</ref> The ''Constitution of Aghven'' usually features as an inclusion in ]’s ''History of the Land of Aghvank''.<ref>Movses Kalankatuatsi. History of the Land of Aluank, translated from Old Armenian by Sh. V. Smbatian. Yerevan: Matenadaran (Institute of Ancient Manuscripts), 1984, “Constitution”</ref>

It is attempted to claim that Vachagan was somehow Armenian, a bunch of primary sources and Armenian nationalist author Ulubabyan used as a reference for some reason, while he is clearly not third party, and there are reliable third party sources available on the topic. For instance, Iranica :

After the death of Vačē, Albania was to remain for thirty years without a king. It was the Sasanian Balāš (r. 484-88) who decided to reestablish the Albanian monarchy in the person of Vačagan, son of Yazdegerd and brother of the previous king Vačē (Movsēs, History 1.16, tr. p. 25). According to this version, Vačagan Barepaš (the pious) must have been descended from the royal family of Persia. He demonstrated great zeal for Christianity, commanding the nobles who had apostatized to return to the Christian religion and waging war not only on Magianism but also on pagan practices, idolatry, and sorcery (notably against the sect of the matnahatkʿ or “finger-cutters;” cf. below). He took the initiative in convening a church council at Aghuen (between 484 and 488); its canons were endorsed by high civil dignitaries and a certain number of nobles (Movsēs, History 1.26, tr. 50-54).

So Vachagan was of Parthian/Persian origin (Arsacid Dynasty of Caucasian Albania), and he was a king of Caucasian Albania, which is substituted here for strange "ruler of Aghvank". The rewrite by the banned user is full of such misinterpretations, and misuse of the primary sources. Another example is discussed in the thread just above this one. Johann Schiltberger is used as a reference to claim Armenian domination in the area. Origianlly new accounts made the following revision: Johann Schiltberger (1380–c. 1440), a German traveler and writer, observed in the beginning of the 15th century that Karabakh's lowlands divided by the Kura River are populated by Armenians and mentioned Karabakh as part of Armenia. However the source actually said something quite different. Schiltberger wrote:

The Infidels call the plain, in the Infidel tongue, Karawag. The Infidels posses it all, and yet in stands in Ermenia. There are also Armenians in the villages, but they must pay tribute to the Infidels.

So Schiltberger never said that Karabakh's lowlands are populated by Armenians, quite the contrary, he said that Armenians also live there, i.e. among other people, and that the region was possessed by Infidels, i.e. Muslims. Plus Schiltberger's knowledge of geography was highly defective, he also included Tbilisi and Babylon as part of Armenia, and it is clear even from the article in Misplaced Pages that he must used very carefully as a source. I inserted an accurate quote: , which was reverted for original claim with slight modification: This is again not accurate, as it says nothing about the lands being ruled by "infidels", plus it is not clear what was the point in removing the accurate quote and replacing it with personal inaccurate interpretation. I can continue citing such POV interpretations and misuse of the primary sources, but it makes little sense. Any attempts to fix POV and include accurate quotes meet fierce resistance. I would like to get some peer review of the recent edits, and also the opinions of uninvolved editors on how appropriate are the recent edits to this article, i.e. if they conform with WP:PRIMARY, WP:RS, etc. I believe what we have here is a violation of this section of WP:RS. In general, I consider that such large rewrites to such a contentious article should be first proposed at talk, and only after reaching a wide consensus included in the article. Obviously, consensus does not mean 7 accounts with few edits appearing here and claiming that they all agree to the rewrite, consensus means agreement that involves users with proven history of contributions. Grandmaster 12:40, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Topics for the RfC

The RfC may need to be better focussed on specific issues if it's going to be effective. Editors are requested to propose topics. I see some criticism of primary sources above, but I don't know how many primary sources remain in the article. It does not require great acumen to believe that socks may have been affecting this article, but simply to criticize edits because of who made them may not be a useful activity. I urge Grandmaster and any others who participate here to write more briefly. If you want to add explanatory material consider putting it in your own user space somewhere and linking to it from here. EdJohnston (talk) 13:50, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• All unassessed articles
• B-Class Armenian articles
• Unknown-importance Armenian articles
• WikiProject Armenia articles
• B-Class Azerbaijan articles
• Top-importance Azerbaijan articles
• WikiProject Azerbaijan articles
• Old requests for peer review
• Misplaced Pages requests for comment