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Military history: European / Italian / World War II B‑class

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Italy B‑class High‑importance

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One of the most interesting counterfactuals emerging in World War II history is what would have happened if Italy had been engaged earlier. The tantalizing prospect glimmers that if Britain and France had been able to declare war on Italy as well as Germany in 1939, Mussolini's house of cards could have been torn apart before Germany could have intervened .

There is an even more compelling counterfactual: the British and French gave way to Italy in its Abyssinian adventure, partly, it seems, because they were genuinely impressed by the evident power of Fascist Italy. But it was a sham then, just as much as it was a sham later. One can argue that the history of the 20th Century would have been radically different had Fascist Italy been suppressed in the middle of the 1930s.

From this counterfactual comes a significant question: we know now how feeble Italy was, but why did the military advisors of the day not realize this? The answers to this question have the potential to illuminate not only past history, but also many of the perplexing military questions we face today.

Well, everybody miscalculated the international situation in the years before the war. The British were paralysed by fear of the Italian Navy throughout the '30s, but they discounted the small and apparently weak German fleet: a serious error

Mussolini and Stalin also underestimated German power: they were expecting Germany vs. France/Britain to be another slow war of attrition which would take years to decide. If they had foreseen the rapid German victories of 1940 they would have stayed away from Hitler and supported the Allies.

And of course, Hitler in turn seriously miscalculated Russian power...

The lesson of the whole sorry episode is "expect the unexpected"

Mmartins

The reason France and Britain didn't move against Italy during the 30s is part military and part political. Military, it couldn't be known in advance that the British Matilda tanks would be so important in the African war against Italy and neither could the triumph of air power over the battleships be known beforehand. So even though Britain/France had clear advantage over Italy they still saw that they would need to pay a heavy cost in ships and resources to defeat her (the whole point of the Italian navy versus British and the French). If they'd attacked Italy in 1939, they would not only be launching a war of aggression against a neutral nation, but they would also have to gather much bigger forces to defeat the Italians in Africa (which would drain manpower from Europe) than was the case in Operation Compass were a British force defeated the Italians in spite of severe numerical inferiority that wasn't of the British choosing. The political reasons which have been lost in the post-WWII propganda of the allies as the altruistic saviors of mankind is that the French and British governments (if not their populations) prefered a fascist government in Italy (and Spain and Germany) over the leftist government that surely would've taken it's place had Mussolini been brought down, say by military defeat at the hands of the British over Abyssinia. It was this preference that gave the fascist governments such leeway during the 30s although it is generally forgetten. Even Churchill wrote at the time that he would want a Hitler to save Britain should Britain ever face the same ruin as Germany. --Sus scrofa 20:45, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Inaccuracies

"However, on June 10, 1940, as Rommel reached the English Channel, ..."

1. German forces reached the English Channel, surrounding the French and British armies in northeast France and the low countries on May 20, 1940, not June 10. Indeed, by June 4 the Dunkirk evacuation was over and pocket had surrendered.

2. Rommel was only a division commander in the 1940 campaign, and his panzer division was NOT the one that reached the English Channel on May 20. If you want to attribute the reaching of the channel to a German commander, the appropriate person is Kluge, commander of Panzer Group Kluge and in control of the panzer forces that did reach the channel.

Pre War Naval Demonstration for Germany

Before Italy decalared war, there was a massive and highly complex set of naval demonstations performed with Hitler in attendance. I remember reading about something like 70 Submarines firing deck guns in formation, then submersing and surfacing in perfect formation. There was also some record-breaking fleet sail-past at something like 37 Knots. Does anyone know the details of this, and if so, should it be included in the article? --Zegoma beach 20:56, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Tone and Citation Tags

I've taken out the Tone tag because I don't see what is wrong with the tone of this article and because I don't think it appropriate this tag should be added by an unidentified IP address. I feel the same way about the citation tag but will leave it pending debate. This article is a summary article and each section has an underlying 'Main article' in Misplaced Pages cited. The contents therefore summarise the underlying articles and don't need citations. If there is a problem with citations this should be addressed in the underlying articles. Stephen Kirrage 11:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

In the absence of any response to the above, I've taken out the unreferenced tag as well Stephen Kirrage 08:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

"and thus they have remained theoretically at war with each other up to the present time."

I must say, the notion that two states formerly at war that although for a long time now at peace have failed to agree a peace treaty somehow makes them still "theoretically" at war seems to me rather preposterous. There is no realistic sense, even theoretical, in which one can claim that Italy is still at war with Japan. (This is not even comparable to the two Koreas, which still have a significant military buildup targeted against each other, and in the case of which a return to hostilities is still conceivable -- Italy and Japan do not target each other militarily, and the thought of a resumption of hostilities between them is simply unimaginable.) It seems far saner to say that a peace treaty is not necessary to end a state of war (even a "theoretical" state of war), than to claim that Italy and Japan are still in any sense (however theoretical) at war. --SJK (talk) 08:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Narrative must begin earlier

The history of Italy during the Second World War does not begin with the Nazi invasion of Poland nor with Mussolini's 10 June declaration. While I don't have the time to write this section now, I would hope someone would edit this piece to add Italy's invasions of Ethiopia (1935), Albania, and other territories, without which it is not really possible to understand Italy's position in 1939. Italy's irredentism and Mussolini's ideas about resurrecting a "Roman Empire" begin much earlier than Poland and should be reflected on this page. While Italy may not have been allied with Germany and fighting Britain and France right away, its actions in the Mediterranean and Red Sea were very much a part of the situation in Europe that led to war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.254.241.30 (talk) 22:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Censoring by Nick Dowling

Who gives him the right to decide that the broadcasts by Radio Rome and Radio Berlin concerning the role of Axis forces are unreliable and of dubious nature. I'd hate to see him work for BBC. What has he got the mentality of a child?? Isn't it obvious that historians would've discovered by now that Radio Berlin and Radio Rome had got it all wrong, inventing units that didn't exist and placing them in wrong areas, and ofcourse, getting the dates, timing and weather all wrong when describing actions. Nick Dowling, get real, and have a read of the pages that deal with "Siege Of Tobruk", "Operation Brevity", "Operation Crusader", etcetera, to see that you got it all wrong mate. GENERALMESSE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Generalmesse (talk • contribs) 03:25, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I've responded at Talk:Italian participation in the Eastern Front and have reported you for incivility. Nick Dowling (talk) 06:19, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Reputation of Italian fighting efficiency during World War II

This is a sensitive topic for some. From what I have learned, there are some that have essentially spammed and vandalised the page with unfounded bias and propaganda. There are some that have been battling the propaganda. Others have been constructive. Yet, there are some that are aware that this is a topic with a historical legacy of being incorrectly depicted and simply wish to get the facts out.

Further there are others who would not be aware that a ubiquitous number of books have dismissed the Italian involvement in the war. For them it may be difficult to believe as we inherently grew up to believe that non-fiction books are generally gospel. Well, even a technical text book or the most cutting–edge work is prone to mistakes. The whole premise of scientist/philosophical reporting is about constructive critique in order to build on what we currently know. There is plenty to warrant a reassessment of the reputation of Italian soldiers. Their memories are equally as worthy as those of the other participants. To not appraise their involvement based on facts is a disservice to them, and also denigrates those who fought bravely against them. It always cuts both ways.

I would hope that if anyone has any concerns regarding the content in this subsection that they present their arguments here. Lets work together, rather than against each other. Feel free to comment.

I will start with an excerpt to illustrate some of the relevant background, and provided justification for the subsection. This comes from relevant fragments form the first 3 pages of: Walker, Ian W. (2003). Iron Hulls, Iron Hearts; Mussolini's Elite Armoured Divisions in North Africa. Ramsbury: The Crowood Press. ISBN 1-86126-646-4.;

In Britain and the wider English-speaking world almost everyone is familiar with the Desert War fought in North Africa between June 1940 and May 1943. They have all herd of the famous Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery and his 8th Army. They are equally familiar with his legendary opponent Field Marshall Erwin Rommel and his Deutches Africa Korps (DAK). The epic encounter between these two rivals an their two forces that took place at El Alamein is viewed as one of the key battles of World War II. There are countless book on the North African campaign, ranging in scope from academic studies of the grand strategies through to personal memoirs. In their entirety these works manage to touch on almost every conceivable aspect of the conflict.

In spite of this, I hope to offer an entirely different perspective on this familiar campaign of World War II. This will come form a focus on the hitherto neglected Italian involvement. In all previous accounts in English, the Italians have either been ignored completely or afforded little more than an acknowledgement of their presence – yet they made up the bulk of the axis forces involved in this campaign, a fact not yet reflected in existing accounts. They are sometimes allowed a place during the first phase of the campaign as Britain’s only opponents, but the arrival of Rommel in early 1941 quickly relegates them to obscurity thereafter.....In terms of their influence on fighting, however, they are usually dismissed in a few paragraphs that primarily concentrate on describing their many deficiencies. Thereafter, they are usually ignored.....In Britain pople are familiar with the war time propaganda images of endless lines of Italian prisoners...This strong visual image was reinforced by contemporary newsreel and newspaper accounts of Italian military incompetence and cowardice, often involving the use of racial stereotypes. This image was often deliberately contrasted with German military efficiency and ferocity. This produced a strong British prejudice against the Italians very early in the war, which has consistently been reinforced in most histories produced since its end....All this has left a powerful legacy in English-speaking accounts, in which the Italians are widely seen as a nation of dilettantes, devoid of military skills and entirely lacking courage. It high is time, however, that this view was re-examined to reveal what, if any, truth lies behind it. It is only by doing so that we will be able to assess what impact the Italians actually had on this campaign. ....The process really requires a complete re-evaluation of the Italian economy and the political and military systems......

I recommend this book as part of ones library to all who are interested in the North African campaign, in particular.

I’ll state now that I will reinsert verifiable statements that are deleted, within reason.

Romaioi (talk) 16:20, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Reputation of Italian fighting efficiency during World War II (Again!)

There have been a number of edits recently giving examples of brave battalion actions. If the point of this section is to show that the "general" reputation of Italian fighting prowess was misrepresented during and immediately after the war, then citing a few individual battalion actions won't help. What we need is much broader evidence - opinions of allied generals, German generals and later historians - of which there is a convincing amount of in the article already. I'm tempted to go through this section and remove the "micro detail" (subject to any reaction here to this comment) which at present is swamping and in my opinion diluting the broader evidence. After all, at battalion level it's easy to quote just as many incidents where battalions made a poor showing. Stephen Kirrage 12:49, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

What has happened to this article, is cleary gangstarism on the part of noclador and others who refuses to admit that many Italian units fought well in North Africa. The fact that some Italian battalions overwhelmed their adversaries at Alemein is certainly the tip of the iceberg for these Italian successes were unknown in the post war literature in English-speaking countries, and have only just come to light thanks to some people who have dug deep. These fairly recent relevations should not be deleted like noclador has just done. This individual even had the nerve to remove references/evidence in the form of profesor Sadkovich and other authors who pointed out that the Italians played an important role and were mainly responsable for taking large numbers of prisoners in the battle of Alemein on 22nd and 27th of July. This is clearly ganstarism on his part and let me repeat, he has committed a sin according to the wikipedia rules by also removing a number of verifiable sources in the page about the first battle of Alemein that proved the Italians played an important part. This individual is guilty of perpetuating the myth about the Italians in North Africa like the first lot of writers (many of whom were biased or ill informed generals) in the English-speaking world. Reading that page about Alemein makes you believe the Italians played a ridiculously small part and the Germans did all the fighting while the Italians did all the surrendering. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.172.105.49 (talk) 01:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Are you perhaps GeneralMesse? Your abusive friend Noclador tried his darndest to invent proof that I was one of GeneralMesse's sockpuppets and hurled a lot of insults my way. I am still dealing with the outfall. You must have sparked something in him. If it is a big issue for you, you can raise it with the administrators as a WQA or ANI.

In deleting your inclusions Noclador has also vandalised some existing "concensus" information. It is yet another example of him not doing his homework properly. There is no need to state that an author is a professor or Dr. or whatever, the surname should suffice. Just please ensure that you cite what you include. I will undo Noclador's vandalism. But, with respect, I think that it needs some work. So I have commented out what I believe to be your contibutions for further consideration. They are still there.

"I agree with Stephen Kirrage. There is probably no need to include many battalion level actions. Those passages are more appropriate in campaign specific articles. The information that was there before your inclusions actually painted an accurate enough picture. The formatting of your included content was not consistent with the existing content. When you make a quote can you please format accordingly, i.e. as quote?

Romaioi (talk) 08:27, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't normally respond to anonymous talk page entries but here I must defend noclador. As it currently stands, as Romaioi has pointed out, the section makes a convincing rebuttal of the "myth" using credible quotes from historians and generals. The micro-detail that has been removed in my view actually detracted from the argument by clogging the article up with unnecessary and confusing detail. Sourced or not this stuff already appears in other more specific articles anyway. The aggressive and POV tone of 202.172.105.49's comment does not help and is in itself contrary to the Misplaced Pages ethos. By using words like "gangsterism", "myth", "sin" and referring to sources as "biased or ill-informed" the editor above betrays his/her own POV stance which manifests itself in approving sources that align with a particular view and denigrating those that don't. NPOV is a cornerstone of Misplaced Pages and 202.172.105.49 could do no better than revisiting the contents of Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view and in particular the following:

2.5 Balance

NPOV weights viewpoints in proportion to their prominence. However, when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, the core of the NPOV policy is to let competing approaches exist on the same page: work for balance, that is: describe the opposing viewpoints according to reputability of the sources, and give precedence to those sources that have been the most successful in presenting facts in an equally balanced manner.

2.6 Impartial tone

Misplaced Pages describes disputes. Misplaced Pages does not engage in disputes. A neutral characterization of disputes requires presenting viewpoints with a consistently impartial tone, otherwise articles end up as partisan commentaries even while presenting all relevant points of view. Even where a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinions, inappropriate tone can be introduced through the way in which facts are selected, presented, or organized. Neutral articles are written with a tone that provides an unbiased, accurate, and proportionate representation of all positions included in the article. The tone of Misplaced Pages articles should be impartial, neither endorsing nor rejecting a particular point of view.

Stephen Kirrage 09:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

To the IP I would say that I agree entirely with Stephen Kirrage. Your edit was POV-motivated, did nothing to improve the article (indeed made it worse by cluttering it up with distracting detail), and noclador was entirely correct to RV it.

To Romaioi I'd say, yes, this IP probably is Generalmesse. But, in general, OK, you've made your point about noclador, now move on. Bearing grudges is unhelpful, and you should restrict yourself to commenting on the content, rather than other editors. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 11:30, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

It would appear that the point is clearly not made seeing that Noclador has now accused me of being a sock of User:Brunodam over based on these comments here from this 72.157.177.44 IP address. I cannot respect anyone who gives none and continues to make farcical accusations. Romaioi (talk) 14:40, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

noclador is quite a bully on the wiki editorial board who has already decided what can and cannot be written with regards to the Italian army in WWII. I would love to contribute but I'm afraid I'd be labelled a Nazi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.157.177.44 (talk) 12:26, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Bruno, what are you doing? Have you forgotten that you are banned? AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 14:00, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

What ever you guys (IPs, socks, whatever) have done, the timing of your comments over the past couple of months have caused me no end of trouble here. I hold you guys equally as responsible as the idiot who keeps trying to frivolously link me with you. If you contributed properly this topic would not be so tarnished and my accuser might have actually been inclined to show some of the good faith he is now devoid of. Romaioi (talk) 07:01, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

What we need is much broader evidence, of allied, German generals and later historians (kirrages 05.08.08)

I was much suprised to find out that the Italian army defeated a number of Commonwealth units at Alamein. Of course that information is no longer visible, due to vandalism? I believe readers need to know about the successes at battalion-level of the Sabratha, Trieste and Trento at El Alamein. After all these battalions were representative of their divisions and the perception out there is that these divisions simply 'melted away in the fighting' but in reality these divisions rallied and indeed fought well. Sadkovich pointed this out and extracts from his work about the Italians at El Alamein, that were available for all to see in Wikepedia, have been removed by noclador who sees his work as an 'incovenient truth'. I have just pointed this out (as teresita100403) in the page about the First Battle of Alamein, that the Sabratha recovered her lost positions and that the Trento did the same in its sector, but I gather both edits will be removed by vandals in the disguise of editors. I say goodbye for now but encourage everybody, including noclador and his team of puppets to stop 'sweeping the truth under the carpet,' and to read the following extract(p.141-142)from World War II in Europe, Africa, and the Americas, with General Sources: A Handbook of Literature and Research(by Loyd E. Lee and Robin D. S. Higham, Greenwood Publishing Group, 1997,ISBN 0313293252):

Because many writers have uncritically repeated stereotypes shared by their sources, biases and prejudices have taken on the status of objective obervations, including the idea that the Germans and British were the only belligerents in the Mediterranean after Italian setbacks in early 1941. Sadkovich questioned this point of view in 'Of Myths and Men' and 'The Italian Navy', but persistent stereotypes, including that of the incompetent Italian, are well entrenched in the literature, from Puleston's early 'The Influence of Sea Power', to Gooch's 'Italian Military Incompetence,' to more recent publications by Mack Smith, Knox and Sullivan. Wartime bias in early British and American histories, which focused on German operations, dismissed Italian forces as inept and or unimportant, and viewed Germany as the pivotal power in Europe during the interwar period. For a discussion of this, see Sadkovich, 'Anglo-American Bias and the Italo-Greek War.

Bias includes both implicit assumptions, evident in Knox's title 'The Sources of Italy's Defeat in 1940: Bluff or Institutionalized Incompetence?' and the selective use of sources. Also see Sullivan's 'The Italian Armed Forces.' Sims, 'The Fighter Pilot,' ignored the Italians, while d'Este in 'World War II in the Meditaranean' shaped his reader's image of Italians by citing a German comment that Italy's surrender was 'the basest treachery' and by discussing Allied and German commanders but ignoring Messe, whose 'Come fini la guerra in Africa' is an account of operations in Tunisia, where he commanded the Italian First Army, which held off both the U.S. Second Corps and the British Eighth Army. Like Young, whose 'Rommel the Desert Fox' created the Rommel myth, authors can appear biased because they echo sources that reflect the prejudices and assumptions of the period. Indeed, many of our unconscious assumptions about the war have been shaped by documentaries like 'Victory at Sea', by sophisticated propaganda like Frank Capra's wartime 'Why We Fight' films, and by Hollywood films, television programs, and popular fiction in general. Dependence on non-Italian sources compromised Murray's analysis of the Italian military in 'The Change in the European Balance of Power', it led Van Creveld to conclude in 'Supplying War' that Italians were "useless ballast," and it caused Fraser, 'And We Shall Shock Them', to dimiss Graziani as an anxiety-ridden procrastinator but praised Wavell as a fearless problem solver. Liddel Hart's German sources led him to conclude in 'The Generals Talk' that "Italian jealousy of the Germans" had helped save Egypt. Such conclusions later lead Mearsheimer to question Liddell Hart's objectivity, though Liddell Hart's history of British 'Tanks' and his concise 'History of the Second World War' remain useful, as do Jackson's 'The Battle for North Africa' and Lewin's 'Rommel' and 'The Life and Death of the Afrika Corps'.

If stereotypes make it hard for readers of English to credit any acts of heroism or any display of competence or persistence by Italians, the official Italian service histories, De Felice, Faldella, and Sadkovich in works previously cited, have sought to set the record straight -- 200.253.161.2 (talk) 03:58, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Why is it that we never talk of the Littorio that fought as good as the Ariete.Never mind I have aggregated the lines required to tidy the page and also about what Napoleon thanked of the Italians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.138.139.174 (talk) 07:24, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The problem with the "heroic" italian units, is that they are nothing near the big shadow of incompetence and failures. Italy was unable to control the Mediterranean, even with a bigger navy. They failed to conquer the Balkans. Failed to see Malta as a vital point in the Africa war.They failed even to HOLD their Africa colonies. They even failed to use Tobruk as a supply port. In the large scope, Italy was useless as an ally. But yes, they had heroic units, most of them under Rommel's command, but they are flickers of light in a big darkness. - PHW. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.116.136.146 (talk) 01:22, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

four - six -seven

Hi, regarding 4 or 6 or 7 divisions: I was confused by "four seven divisions" so I looked at Italian invasion of Egypt article were it states that 6 divisions were involved (see footnote 5) - namely:

• 1st Libyan Colonial Infantry Division
• 2nd Libyan Colonial Infantry Division
• Cirene Infantry Division
• Marmarica Infantry Division
• 1st Blackshirt Infantry Division
• 2nd Blackshirt Infantry Division
• and the Maletti Group

the footnote also states "other than the 1st Blackshirt, the other three appear to have hung back" - so three advanced and three hung back; yet the text contradicts this and states "Slowly the mass of four Italian divisions marched through the (Halfaya) pass..." hmm,... your quote states "with four divisions and one armoured group crossing the border." all together I assume that four is the correct number of divisions crossing the border with two in reserve... what I know for sure is that the 1st Libyan, 2nd Libyan, 1st Blackshirt and Maletti Group entered Egypt - do you have any idea which was the fourth division to participate in the invasion of Egypt? --noclador (talk) 03:17, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi, The use of “seven” was a typo stemming from my initial inclination to base the number of division’s (or more specifically, distinguishable units) on the numbers from the Italian invasion of Egypt page (apart from that I haven’t yet looked at that article in detail yet, but the similarities you point out are promising in regards to Bauer’s comments). However I have noticed that numbers displayed in the summary boxes sometimes state the ultimate numbers involved rather than, say, initial numbers. The summary strength numbers for the Greco-Italian War, where 529,000 Italians are said to have partaken, when the initial force was around 8 divisions strong and the actual numbers at the front were, most of the time, less than those of the opposing forces, is the main one that springs to mind. Such summary stats don't always reflect the circumstances. So I thought it more prudent to stick with what the reference states.

Though, as you indirectly pointed out here. Books are not infallible. But Bauer’s has proven to be quite reliable over the years.

In terms of the fourth division, Bauer (p. 113) mentions that the “Cirene” division was dug in 20 miles west of Nibeiwa. So we can conclude that the 4th division was the Cirene. Would you like me to ammend the footnote?Romaioi (talk) 05:44, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

oh, the Greco-Italian War page,.... all the numbers there are wrong (especially Italian losses are wrong) anyway - as for this article please amend the footnote with the names of the 4 div. - and than the article is fine with me :-) --noclador (talk) 22:46, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

by this page, you mean the footnote on Italian invasion of Egypt right? Romaioi (talk) 01:09, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

1940 or 1941

Is the first map of 1940 or 1941? I am adding the image to Italian Unification as 1940, per the file's title. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.121.183.72 (talk) 02:28, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I think it's 1941 since the Italian area extends halfway into British-controlled Egypt.--Sus scrofa (talk) 02:46, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

No, it must be 1940. In 1940 the Italians advanced well into Egypt to Sidi barrani but in 1941 the Axis advance past Tobruk halted more or less on the Egyptian border. Stephen Kirrage 09:20, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry, you're right. I got my dates mixed up.--Sus scrofa (talk) 14:19, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

1939 or 1940

Since you guys seem to know about this subject, File:Italian empire 1940.PNG in (Kingdom of Italy (1861–1946)#Foreign and colonial policy (1922-1946)). This file I labeled 1939 in Italian Unification. If it is 1940, the month, or at least the season, of both this file and the previous should be known. Otherwise, having two 1940 maps might seem redundant.--189.121.183.72 (talk) 00:36, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Benito Mussolini also says 1939.--189.121.183.72 (talk) 00:39, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Reputation of Italian Fighting in World War 2 needs some work

My problem with the section now is that it sounds like someone fighting a ghost. There's very little angled towards why or even if the Italians have a bad reputation, and a whole lot of why that is dead wrong. If you don't establish exactly how bad the perception of the Italians are, all this stuff basically sounds like a commercial for the World War II Italian military, which is incredibly silly. If it's not established, the particular military action where they had some success could be mentioned elsewhere as part of just their actions. Am I alone in this? --DeviantCharles (talk) 08:10, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you. --Sus scrofa (talk) 20:05, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree, the guy that started this nonsense was eventually blocked for multiple sock puppet accounts and meat puppetry. Its just plain foolish if you want my honest opinion. I'd like to see it removed. Justin talk 20:14, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I believe the section is well referenced and done and must remain, because wikipedia is an encyclopedia and must have all the areas concerning an article. And the "Reputation of Italian Fighting in World War 2" is one of the areas of the Military History of Italy in WWII. We all know how "bad the perception of the Italians" is in WWII, just read most books or magazines about the topic. Let's be honest about this fact, created mainly by propaganda. Misplaced Pages needs to "balance" these negative opinions to achieve NPOV, and this is the reason for the section.--Stewtired (talk) 03:29, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Stewtired. The section must remain, because Wiki needs to balance many negative opinions of the Italians during WWII in order to get a real NPOV. Furthermore, I want to remember that user:Romaioi, "the guy that started this nonsense" as posted by Justin, was not involved in sockpuppetry and is a serious contributor to Misplaced Pages.Mike R. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.69.137.41 (talk) 05:23, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

This section needs to stay for reasons clearly outlined above (here). Much of the published history on this topic is subject to (or based on) an unbalanced amount of propaganda, so an attempt to disseminate between fact and the rest is warranted. However, I believe DeviantCharles is correct in saying that this section needs work. About a year ago I started writing something along the style of my edits for the initial section of the article (Outbreak of World War II) - note that the edits there worked in with content previously written by others rather than destroy their contributions (which also results in a longer research & writing process, for me anyway) - to address the causes of resulting perception. But I became busy and ran out of energy before I could get it to that standard (anything less resulted in personal attacks) - so it remains unfinished. I will eventually finish it, but it could be a while. Irrespective, the current content is sufficiently/amply referenced so it should remain - it just needs copy editing and words that provide the appropriate perspective. Deletion of verifiable referenced material really is not acceptable. In the meantime, if you have an issue with the section, why not help try to improve it? Romaioi (talk) 15:38, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

I've just read this article for the first time today, and read through the discussion above about this section. Coming fresh to the subject, I felt the section as is reads a little bit too much like a spirited defence of the Italian forces, which could be considered POV. I certainly read it for the first time and thought "Blimey, someone's got a bee in their bonnet about that one!". I wonder if I might make a suggestion - would it work to have the examples of specific instances of Italian military merit and praise from Allied commanders included under the sections of the main article dealing with the campaign/battle in which it occurred? So you might talk about the Battle of Keren in Campaigns in East Africa 1940-41, for instance. Then the "Reputation" section which has seen so much controversy could be reduced to a discussion of Allied propaganda efforts and their lingering effects on public consciousness? It's just a thought, and it might not work. I have no problem with the contents of the "Reputation" section, (mostly) well-sourced, relevant and notable, but putting it all together in the same place like that potentially makes a POV statement in its own right. If a reader were to read the article, gain a balanced view of the defeats and victories of the Italian forces, and then read about the propaganda, it might come off better IMHO. Brickie (talk) 16:51, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

I have just read this article for the first time; As a previously uninvolved editor, I feel that while it is probably not the best choice to remove this section altogether, it needs some major overhauling. Seriously, the POV is so blatant this section would be more appropriately retitled something like "Why the bad reputation of Italians fighting in WW2 is unjust". Like DeviantCharles said, even if they are all true, there should at least be something about exactly how bad their reputation was. I honestly don't know enough about this to do the work myself - placing a pov tag on this section. Blodance the Seeker 22:09, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi Blodance and apologies for the length,

I think the first three paragraphs (and accompanying notes), which admittedly are mainly my contribution, largely addresses the “why”. There are ample citations to support those paragraphs. They were the start of an attempt to contribute to an overhaul (but as usual we get busy with other things that must take priority). I’m guessing the “undue” tag from January is due to the long list of quoted comments below those introductory paragraphs?

In terms of additional background, there is a quoted section from one recent historical work that articulates this issue well and succinctly on the Anti-Italianism page, specifically here. Lets call a spade a spade: the majority of historical works (until recently) have been strongly influenced by the Germano-Anglo-American prejudicial attitudes of several eras toward Italians (confirmed by several more recent non-Italian authored works). This has influenced popular perception (in the baby boomer generations of the Anglo-sphere at least) to this very day. I will give you a couple of examples:

• During the Costa Concordia disaster one Australian survivor from my home city was happy to generalise a rush of male passengers heading for the life boats as “young Italian men, the gutless bastards”. There is a lot that can be discussed about this point – e.g. many other Australians could infer from the gentleman’s photo and comments that he himself was a certain type of character that wouldn’t be able to discern between languages and race – but the subtleties of the news article are discussed in the following blog: Aussie Heros, Gutless Everyone Else (I’m not he author). What we have here is a newspaper that was happy to publish one mans racist comments, which prompted anti-Italian racism with several references to WWII in the accompanying reader comments (in a country where being racist towards some ethnic groups is a criminal offence). A later article suggests that many people getting onto the lifeboats in the manner described by my fellow countryman were not Italian, but the comments were made, accepted as fact, and more reputational damage has now been done.
• There is a recent best selling “historical” book entitled Tobruk by an Australian author/ex-rugby player named Peter Fitzsimons, who is known for his poetic and parochial narration (both in first and third person). My view is that Fitzsimons is not anti-Italian, but his book epitomizes the bias in the historiography. Case in point: in his acknowledgements he points out that his research was conducted in Australia, Britain, Germany, where he also interviewed soldiers - yet he neglected to visit the country which provided the most troops and supplies on the Axis side. This did not stop him from inventing first person narrative from an Ariete tanker named Mario.
  • One further sub-example: Fitzsimons took care to describe the positions of the combatants around Tobruk by nation, however he oddly credits the fire originating from the Italian positions as being German. The reader could be forgiven for generally thinking that all the Italians seamed to do was surrender, die, and fall off their motorcycles (ibid). He even managed to incorrectly refer to the German army as having fought in Eritrea. Rommel’s son liked the book – he endorsed it with its Forward.

If history is supposed to be about facts and truth, then that’s why this section is important and needs to stay, even it takes forever to get it right. (It is a topic that is difficult to portray NPOV and the editors are constantly battling socks and wiki-vandals etc, which I guess makes it more sensitive.) The fact that the historiography has itself obscured the facts and negatively influenced popular opinion (“George Costanza” would be proud) also requires addressing. Romaioi (talk) 03:12, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Folgore

Incidentally, When I say "(mostly) well-sourced", two things puzzled me - in the box-off about the Folgore division (the existence of which seemed odd in itself to me), two quotes are given that are not only unsourced but actively disparaged in the text:

Winston Churchill speech to the Chamber, Nov. 21 1942:"We really must bow in front of the rest of those who have been the lions of the Folgore Division" It should be noted, however, that the source of this statement has not been identified and that the House of Commons didn't even sit on 21 November 1942.

BBC, Dec. 3rd 1942:" The last survivors of Folgore have been gathered without forces in the desert, none of them surrendered, no one left his weapon" This doesn't even make sense in English so is probably false as well.

I'm not sure why a user would add comments to the effect that the information is "probably false" rather than just deleting it or at the very least putting a against it... Brickie (talk) 16:57, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

After reading the above statement by Brickie I went to check for any source to confirm the speech done by Churchill about the Folgore division and found out the following:

• There was no session of the British parliament on Nov. 21 1942
• the Folgore is not mentioned in a single debatte/session of the British parliament ever!
• Churchill did not mention the Folgore in any of his speeches in parliamnet in 1942
• the Italian Armys official homepage does not mention this quote of Churchill neither in the history article about the Folgore nor in the article about the Battle of El Alamein

therefore I removed the entry as it is most likely as the Stalin-Alpini quote a fabrication, noclador (talk) 18:38, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

I totally agree with you: unreferenced quotes should be eliminated. But I do not think it is an fabrication, that quote is widely known in Italy. --Enok (talk) 11:30, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I know, that the quote is widely known in Italy - but it does not make it true. Probably it is a legend that - after much repeating - now seems to be the truth, when in fact no source for it in English and from England can be found. noclador (talk) 04:06, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

No source from England? It would be strange otherwise. However, from what I read about, that sentence should be spoken in radio, and not in British parliament (?). --Enok (talk) 13:09, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

The quote "Play it again, Sam" from Casablanca is widely known in Britain, despite not actually appearing in the movie ... I've never heard of this quote from Churchill about the Folgore, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. As a historian further up the talk file comments, the British have tended to disparage or completely ignore the Italian army in World War 2, so it's entirely possible that something like that might be forgotten about here. I'm not convinced about it though - I'm not aware of any other instances off the top of my head of Churchill praising the bravery of the enemy forces while the war was still going on, and it would seem especially odd if you consider the general British policy of presenting the Italians as comedy strutting buffoons. Until someone produces some official transcript, I'll remain to be convinced - everything Churchill said on the radio is surely transcribed somewhere by the BBC... Brickie (talk) 16:16, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

That Churchill ever said anything along the lines of this "Lions of the Folgore" stuff is an old urban myth to be found only on far-right Italian websites. He made no mention of them, nor was there any reason for him ever to have done. I myself removed this silliness from this article in June. There is no substance to this daft story. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 22:42, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

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