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Revision as of 02:20, 30 April 2012
Prostitution in South Korea
'Chinese Prostitute in korea' Is a pre-existing data. but User Azload(Smiling Demon Lord) again and again Blindly deletes it. and 'Chinese Prostitute in korea' is far from Human Trafficking . therefore, 'Chinese Prostitute in korea' Preserve this section plz, — Preceding unsigned comment added by OOggii (talk • contribs) 04:21, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
RFC
Hi Ed. I responded to your comment at my talk, and also started an RFC, as you advised. Regards, Grandmaster 12:55, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
With regard to your request at NK talk, should I start a separate RFC on every source or paragraph that is in dispute, or I can create new sections on the same talk page? The problem is that the dispute is not related to just one source or one paragraph. The rewrite was very large, and included a lot of questionable interpretations of the primary sources, and dubious secondary sources. Any attempts to make any corrections were reverted, which led to further escalation of the dispute. Therefore I think in addition to RFC, it makes sense to request a peer review of the proposed rewrite. Grandmaster 14:55, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps you could make a subpage in your user space that lists all the questions you want to cover. Then just start out with one or two of them in the RfC, to get the discussion going. I have mentioned on the NK talk that one could propose removal of all the primary sources. See if you agree with that. EdJohnston (talk) 15:03, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
- I can do that, but it is going to take some time because of the volume of the text added. And I would agree to removal of all primary sources that require interpretation, as per WP:PRIMARY: A primary source may only be used on Misplaced Pages to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source. For example, if we have a text of a legal document, we can use it saying that it states this and that, but any interpretation of the meaning would require a secondary source. For instance, we can quote the resolution by EU parliament as saying certain things, but without any interpretations. Historical chronicles are a bit more difficult, like in the case with Schiltberger, we can say that he said this or that, but that would not add anything to the quality of the article, because it would require a specialist source to explain what is true in what he wrote and how trustworthy as a source he was. So legal documents probably need to be treated slightly differently than historical chronicles, even though they are both primary. Grandmaster 15:19, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
- Can you think of any primary documents that have reason to stay in the article? If not, consider asking for their removal. EdJohnston (talk) 16:23, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
- I rolled back most of recent additions, but there are still a few primary sources in there, like this line: Tigran the Great, King of Armenia, (ruled from 95–55 BC), founded in Artsakh one of four cities named “Tigranakert” after himself. It refers to Sebeos, but needs a third party secondary source. I think this article needs a lot of improvement, but it needs to be built slowly. You cannot just come along and dump 30K of text into the article that was a subject to a couple of arbitration cases. It is one thing to create an article from scratch, and another thing to contribute to a highly contentious article. Every paragraph added needs to be throughly discussed, if there are objections to its inclusion. Grandmaster 09:00, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
- I replied on talk pages in the article but overall I am not happy with how this article is being handled by sysops. First, the allegations on primary sources by Grandmaster is a bad faith mis-characterization of what is in the article; see my comments on talk pages http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh#Topics_for_the_RfC. The added material that Grandmaster removed is based on secondary sources which comment primary sources. Primary sources are used for reference to the original source as illustration so that the reader could learn from where the secondary sources derive their comments from. That is it. Second, Grandmaster's stance on sources is bad faith. I will bring Winter's example with Guba mass grave which Grandmaster edited. This indeed is an absurd article completely based on Azerbaijani hate websites and state propaganda sources. Grandmaster never bothered to question the validity of those sources whereas here he kills himself posing as a super-expert in WP:NPOV and WP:PRIMARY. You need to create a level playing field for a true discussion to take place. I propose to unblock Winterblist and Dehr since their violations clearly donot merit a block. And you need to put Grandmaster under sanctions for essentially impersonating an administrator, and for his removal of text agreed upon by several editors. Instead you give him and his ruwiki meats a pat on the back. Zimmarod (talk) 22:37, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
- It's reasonable to assume that some number of socks are still operating on both sides of this conflict. That poses difficulties for trying to resolve the issues at Nagorno-Karabakh by simply counting the number of editors who vote for each side of a question. It may be appropriate to focus in on a small number of issues for review and try to put them before a broader community, among whose numbers there will be fewer socks. The question of usage of primary sources could be one such issue. From the article talk page I can't get much insight as to the degree that primary sources are currently being used. The quality of the discussion on the talk page doesn't seem very high. Somebody who doesn't work in this area would have a lot of trouble getting oriented as to the main issues. In your comment at the article talk you argue that "interpretation is allowed with the support of secondary sources." There are examples in the article of primary sources being used directly (with no filtering through a secondary source). For example the Ancient Greek author Strabo is cited as an authority for a matter of fact in reference 10, regarding the name Orkhistene. I agree that use of both Armenian and Azeri primary sources ought to be scrutinized. EdJohnston (talk) 00:58, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
- Yep, Grandmaster risks a bonfire of his own primary sources. The blocking of Winterblist and Dehr is extraordinary, but nobody invents a new weapon without having an overwhelming desire to try it out as soon as possible and those two were available targets. Meowy 01:10, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
- It's reasonable to assume that some number of socks are still operating on both sides of this conflict. That poses difficulties for trying to resolve the issues at Nagorno-Karabakh by simply counting the number of editors who vote for each side of a question. It may be appropriate to focus in on a small number of issues for review and try to put them before a broader community, among whose numbers there will be fewer socks. The question of usage of primary sources could be one such issue. From the article talk page I can't get much insight as to the degree that primary sources are currently being used. The quality of the discussion on the talk page doesn't seem very high. Somebody who doesn't work in this area would have a lot of trouble getting oriented as to the main issues. In your comment at the article talk you argue that "interpretation is allowed with the support of secondary sources." There are examples in the article of primary sources being used directly (with no filtering through a secondary source). For example the Ancient Greek author Strabo is cited as an authority for a matter of fact in reference 10, regarding the name Orkhistene. I agree that use of both Armenian and Azeri primary sources ought to be scrutinized. EdJohnston (talk) 00:58, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
- Can you think of any primary documents that have reason to stay in the article? If not, consider asking for their removal. EdJohnston (talk) 16:23, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
- I can do that, but it is going to take some time because of the volume of the text added. And I would agree to removal of all primary sources that require interpretation, as per WP:PRIMARY: A primary source may only be used on Misplaced Pages to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source. For example, if we have a text of a legal document, we can use it saying that it states this and that, but any interpretation of the meaning would require a secondary source. For instance, we can quote the resolution by EU parliament as saying certain things, but without any interpretations. Historical chronicles are a bit more difficult, like in the case with Schiltberger, we can say that he said this or that, but that would not add anything to the quality of the article, because it would require a specialist source to explain what is true in what he wrote and how trustworthy as a source he was. So legal documents probably need to be treated slightly differently than historical chronicles, even though they are both primary. Grandmaster 15:19, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Anti-Edit Warrior...Warrior Award
 |
Slakr's Anti-Edit Warrior...Warrior Award For your work in frequently patrolling edit warring reports, I hereby award you this anti-edit-warrior combat helmet. It's come in handy many-a-time when dealing with warriors of all sorts, and it's no doubt prevented many-a-concussion...though it doesn't seem too good at preventing the headache in the first place. :P Keep up the great work. =) Cheers, --slakr 02:03, 20 April 2012 (UTC) |
A reply
to your message to me can be found on my talk page....William 13:21, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
User:Vikas.insan fresh off block and back to old tricks
Greetings, fresh off a block for for abusing multiple accounts (which he moved to after getting called out for long-term edit warring), User:Vikas.insan is back and playing the same WP:I didn't hear that all over again in Dera Sacha Sauda and Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh. Both articles about an Indian religious group whose interests Vikas appears to be advocating in a clearly POV way.
He's adding honorifics like "Saint... Ji Insan" as we've constantly said not to do on Talk pages of articles and his own Talk page, removing clearly cited mentions of past criminal cases as Not everything is historically important, the major incident of Dress that caused riots and was in highlights is as-is there and I have not removed from there, but other were proved by High Court of Haryana & Punjab as fake allegations, etc.
He's reverted each of my reverts, so I had to back of 3RR. And despite my posting specifically for this on the Talk page, he ignored my post and just said you still disagree? please prove me wrong on talk page, then put it here. This user has a long-term pattern of being an SPA to defend the interests of Dera Sacha Sauda and its founder Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh. There may also be another sock, User:Yogesh.insan978 who was SPAing on the same topics during the block.
I've been dealing with this lot for around a year now, and the exact same arguments over over where they insist on giving the leader a bevvy of glossy titles, and hand-waving away murder and rape court cases. Yes, charges were dropped, but they were all over the media, the article mentions their being dropped, and they're still frequently cited my academic writers as evidence of the controversies surrounding the group. Thanks for any help!
I tried filing this at NPOV Noticeboard: Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Tampering_by_advocates_of_Dera_Sacha_Sauda_.28Indian_religious_group.29. But honestly the pattern is so blatant I figured best to bring it to the attention of the last blocking mod (sent to DeltaQuad initially, but he's on break and also more of a sock-hunter). MatthewVanitas (talk) 18:41, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
- Indefinitely blocked. I hope you will be watching for possible socks. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 18:34, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking this up Ed :) Saved me some time. -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 20:32, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
Any possibility we could wrap this up?
Hi Ed, I'm wondering if you or anyone else is in a position to wrap up this AE thread, which has been open for over two weeks now with little movement and no actionable evidence. I'd also like to ask that the request to take action agains the filing editor be considered.Homunculus (duihua) 20:32, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- The AE request has been closed with no action. EdJohnston (talk) 20:51, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
Talkback: New message
Message added 21:25, 24 April 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.
Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 21:25, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
Your message
Thank you - I just got back so will respond now. Oncenawhile (talk) 23:43, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
Talkback: New message
Message added 23:51, 24 April 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.
Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 23:51, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
Stoopsklan
Thank you for notifying me. And, I assure you that I was in no way edit warring. As you can see in the Christopher Walken article, in the 1980's section you can read that all is resolved. I'm very sorry for the inconveince and do apologize to SudoGhost. Stoopsklan (talk) 00:54, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- It isn't resolved, and you were not only edit warring, but violated WP:3RR, disregarding the requests to discuss it on the talk page. - SudoGhost 00:59, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
I apologize for you thinking I was disregarding the requests to discuss. I however wasn't and am very sorry. I have found more info on said article and wish for all this to be resolved as soon as possible. Stoopsklan (talk) 01:29, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
Regarding dispute resolution
Hi, you left a comment on elduderino's page stating that we should try Rfc? how does this work, and if you could advise, what is the best procedure to file a complaint that is very long, complex and detailed? If discussion and so on has already been tried and if the user is a known edit warrior as well in conflict with other users is Rfc on a user ideal? Thank you. JTBX (talk) 04:04, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- You'll need to simplify your request. If you make an RfC about 20 things nobody may bother to respond. If you actually are hoping to find consensus it doesn't help to come to my page and badmouth the other editor. You might consider making a new draft of the article in your user space and then ask for comments. EdJohnston (talk) 04:07, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- So the ideal thing right now is a concise RFC? Just trying to make sure because I have never been through the resolution process to this extent. I assume the Edit war claim I placed, as it is protected, is closed now? Thank you for your help and time.--JTBX (talk) 20:17, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, the 3RR complaint is closed. Since User:Gareth Griffith-Jones is willing to assist with this article, why don't you propose your next idea to him, and see what he says. That might be a quicker way to reach a compromise than using a formal RfC. EdJohnston (talk) 21:01, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- So the ideal thing right now is a concise RFC? Just trying to make sure because I have never been through the resolution process to this extent. I assume the Edit war claim I placed, as it is protected, is closed now? Thank you for your help and time.--JTBX (talk) 20:17, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
Flagrant violations of AA
Hi Ed. About three months ago, I brought to your attention editor Verman1's violation of the permanent topic ban you placed against him on Armenia-Azerbaijan articles. I think you were away from your account for some time and my comment was eventually was archived by the bot. Well, he is still violating it, as seen from his recent history, and despite my friendly warning back in January, I think some action is warranted. All the best, --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 06:03, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
Talkback: New message
Message added 07:53, 25 April 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.
Posting addressed to you there from me. Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 07:53, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
RFC at AE
I am happy to assist in forming the question. Issues relating to this are still being discussed here, and since there are not two clearly defined positions, forming a question may be quite complex.
Best Wishes Ankh.Morpork 13:02, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- There are currently discussion at Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#1929_Palestine_riots I think till its over article should be protected.--Shrike (talk) 14:48, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
Continuing to edit articles regarding AA
Hello Verman1. Do you realize you are under an indefinite ban from the topic of Armenia-Azerbaijan dispute? Here is a recent edit of yours at Immigration to Turkey which mentions Armenia. The title of the reference you added refers to the Armenians' 'national grievances'. It seems to me that this violates your ban. Can you explain why you should not be blocked for a ban violation? EdJohnston (talk) 12:13, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- Hi EdJohnston. I have taken this material from another Misplaced Pages article and confined only with immigration issues. I did not mention anything about Azerbaijani-Armenian conflict. --Verman1 (talk) 17:08, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- I find this edit at Ghost town to be a violation of your ban. You introduce new text commenting on the actions of the Armenian forces regarding Agadam, which is a place in Azerbaijan. For example, you stated "the Armenian forces decided to destroy much of Agdam to prevent its recapture by Azerbaijan". This is a violation of your ban regardless of whether the material previously existed anywhere in Misplaced Pages. I intend to issue a block unless you agree to cease such edits in the future. EdJohnston (talk) 17:49, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- I do agree to cease this type of edits. --Verman1 (talk) 04:19, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you. EdJohnston (talk) 04:22, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I do agree to cease this type of edits. --Verman1 (talk) 04:19, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I find this edit at Ghost town to be a violation of your ban. You introduce new text commenting on the actions of the Armenian forces regarding Agadam, which is a place in Azerbaijan. For example, you stated "the Armenian forces decided to destroy much of Agdam to prevent its recapture by Azerbaijan". This is a violation of your ban regardless of whether the material previously existed anywhere in Misplaced Pages. I intend to issue a block unless you agree to cease such edits in the future. EdJohnston (talk) 17:49, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
AE
Please clarify in the AE why you consider the lack of a RFC, when there is a disagreement involving over 7 editors, an example of my personal failings. I have heavily contributed to the Talk page and RSN, and readily engage in discussion.
Best Wishes Ankh.Morpork 00:53, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- When it is clear there is disagreement among reasonable people, you should not continue to revert. That's the time to wait for consensus. Both you and Oncenawhile continued to revert major aspects of the article up to April 24, with no evidence of any closure of the issue on the talk page. You, Jayjg and Oncenawhile all made pure reverts on April 24. An edit summary of 'Restore verified material' is useless as a justification for your change in an edit war situation. It would have been more frank to say, 'Restoring a version of the article that puts my own side in a better light.' EdJohnston (talk) 01:17, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Point taken. It was quite shocking for me to have this abrupt regression in light of many Talk discussions, so I acted impulsively. Still, I'm inexperienced and learning, so thank you for your advice.
Best Wishes Ankh.Morpork 01:29, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Point taken. It was quite shocking for me to have this abrupt regression in light of many Talk discussions, so I acted impulsively. Still, I'm inexperienced and learning, so thank you for your advice.
Dave Winer
Might I ask you to keep half an eye on Dave Winer? NIrelan is back, it seems. MarkBernstein (talk) 17:11, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Here are the user links:
- Irelan12 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- It may be logical to take this to ANI eventually and ask for an indefinite block. Some time may need to pass first. This editor may be a person who has had disputes with Winer in real life. Merely wanting to balance Winer's article is acceptable, but naked animosity will raise most people's eyebrows. Posting the issue at WP:COIN is another option, but it's a safer choice if the editor has already outed themselves somewhere on Misplaced Pages per a previous comment. EdJohnston (talk) 17:21, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Your message
Thanks for your message Ed. Would you mind explaining whether in your view my misinterpretation of whether that edit constituted a "revert" was a "reasonable mistake"? I would like to understand so that i can learn from this and not make the same mistake again.
More importantly though, I think that if we went down the route you proposed for a case where the suggested transgression was uncertain or unintended, it would encourage more people to use ARBPIA as a weapon to remove from the debate any less experienced editors they don't like. I think protecting the spirit of ARBPIA should define the answer here. Noone has accused me of edit warring, in fact quite the opposite, whereas other editors (including the editor who brought the AE) have been accused of editing in an aggressive manner (for example, working together to get around 1RR without consensus, tenuous explanations for obviously pov edits, consistently avoiding direct talk questions, rejecting numerous attempts at real cooperation, unreasonable detagging, and now silly games with talk page early archiving). In other words, I'm being accused of accidentally tripping one of the Remedies of ARBPIA, whereas the AE-proposing editor and others involved have been flouting its four Principles.
Given the wider context, I just don't see how enforcing against an uncertain or unintended technical breach would be achieve anything positive for anyone except the AE-proposing editor. And a voluntary would just be an enforcement by another name. Oncenawhile (talk) 20:13, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Possible Vikas.insan block evade already
I really hope I'm not just ABF'ing someone who coincidentally just now appeared, but only one day after you indef'ed Special:Contributions/Vikas.insan, this new guy Special:Contributions/Realnews7 appears and starts adding, carefully, cited material about Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh that just happens to be all positive, refers to his opponents as "terrorists" calls Singh "Saint... Ji Insan", etc. Could be pure coincidence, but it is quacking a bit duckish. MatthewVanitas (talk) 20:48, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Realnews7 left an edit summary that suggests he could be a member of the sect. But his English is better than Vikras.insan and he uses the WP Reflinks tool. I did not notice him reverting back any honorifics -- let me know if you found a diff. Not clear to me that it's the same person. EdJohnston (talk) 16:41, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Musion Eyeliner
If you'd read any of the talk or the modified text, you'd see that I asked the user Xida2001 several times to clean up his edit. I finally tried to clean it up myself and he still reverted it. His edits are in poor form and poor english. Please remove the protection template. (I can't believe you'd grant protection so easily!) --Judgeking (talk) 16:51, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- The two of you are having a content dispute. It looks like it would not be hard to find a compromise. For that you need to discuss with the other editor. Another option is for you to request a WP:Third opinion. EdJohnston (talk) 17:09, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- As I said, if you'd looked at any of the material instead of just doing what Xida2001 asked without question, you'd see that I did comprimise by rewording his edit to make it readable (english is clearly not his first language). He still reverted without responding to talk. Judgeking (talk) 17:20, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- Admins do not resolve content disputes. You are expected to have some diplomatic skills yourself. If you are completely stuck, follow the steps of WP:Dispute resolution. EdJohnston (talk) 17:23, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- It's pretty had to resolve a dispute when an admin locks a page for no reason. I've tried to get pages locked from actual vandalism before and NEVER got them locked this fast or easily. Please remove the lock so Xida2001 and I can compromise. Judgeking (talk) 19:33, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- If you reach an agreement with Xida2001 you can ask me to unprotect the page and it will be done immediately. The article's talk page is not protected and you are welcome to continue negotiating there. Your remarks about his knowledge of English are not helping. EdJohnston (talk) 19:53, 27 April 2012 (UTC)]
- It's pretty had to resolve a dispute when an admin locks a page for no reason. I've tried to get pages locked from actual vandalism before and NEVER got them locked this fast or easily. Please remove the lock so Xida2001 and I can compromise. Judgeking (talk) 19:33, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- Admins do not resolve content disputes. You are expected to have some diplomatic skills yourself. If you are completely stuck, follow the steps of WP:Dispute resolution. EdJohnston (talk) 17:23, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- As I said, if you'd looked at any of the material instead of just doing what Xida2001 asked without question, you'd see that I did comprimise by rewording his edit to make it readable (english is clearly not his first language). He still reverted without responding to talk. Judgeking (talk) 17:20, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
As an independent observer, here is my opinion. Xida2001's edits repeat information already present elsewhere in the article, are poorly written, and contain unnecessary external links. By protecting this page, you have frozen the article with Xida2001's unconstructive edits included. I ask that you remove the protected status so that other users such as myself can fix the problem. If you are unwilling to do this, please let me know what I can do as a third party to get the dispute resolved and the page unprotected. Augurar (talk) 21:24, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- Why not join the discussion at Talk:Musion Eyeliner. Perhaps you can suggest a compromise. It is hard for me to figure out what the dispute is about. It seems like moving one sentence from A to B could be enough to satisfy both parties. With three editors joining the debate perhaps a 2:1 majority at least might be found for what to put in the article. EdJohnston (talk) 21:39, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
The problem with JTBX
Ed, maybe you can advise me. JTBX has continued his personal attacks on me on the talk page for The Godfather, and now he has expanded his nuisance editing by marring the plot summary for No Country for Old Men (film). What avenues do I have to get him out of my hair and prevent the destructive edits? Thanks. --Ring Cinema (talk) 19:38, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- I am not happy about the personal attacks, but it may be time for a different admin to review the problem. It seems to me that both of you have broken WP:3RR at No Country for Old Men (film) and you had better cool it there. If you want to improve plot summaries surely you can redirect your efforts to an article where JTBX is not active. And of course, vice versa. There may be ways for you to get feedback on the quality of your own summaries by people who know that kind of thing. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 02:09, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- I don't understand, Ring said he would talk it out on The Godfather page, but now he is saying I am using personal attacks as we are discussing it (which I cannot find). I had a full day of editing plots and that included No Country for Old Men as I came across it. I edited it because it was over 700 words and there was no clear consensus, contrary to what Ring stated, which would stop me from editing the article. I already listed my reasons on its respective page and a neutral editor stated he would help way his opinion on the matter. I am now thinking of opening a Rfc on this user. Again EJ, I do not see what counts as a personal attack, but I am merely pointing out this user's history if you go on his talk page and on an earlier discussion for No Country, that he is a known edit warrior and leads many editors in circles. (Check the relevant talk pages) I don't think he wishes to contribute to the project and is violating WP:OWN. That is from what I can see. And of course, then he seeks help, like he is doing with you now and to Gareth, to dress it up as if he is the victim. I do not think there will be a resolution on the talk page of Godfather either. I have written my plot and it conforms to WP:PLOT guidelines but this user continually reverts the plot back which is where the dispute arose. My point is this is not an edit conflict over opinion, this is a conflict between someone trying to uphold policy and someone (who is known to edit war) getting in the way. I am sorry you did not see it that way EJ, due to time constraints and I apologise to the lengthy battle on the resolution board which this user initiated. (My fault for falling for his trap and having you nearly sanction me). JTBX (talk) 04:33, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- Well, actually, the shoe is on the other foot. I've worked on No Country for Old Men a couple years. JTBX only started editing there since the trouble on The Godfather. It seems that he is intentionally trying to provoke problems and be disruptive. I want to have as little to do with him as possible. Perhaps if you would advise him to stay away from articles he knows I am editing, that would solve the problem. Thanks. --Ring Cinema (talk) 04:49, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- I don't understand, Ring said he would talk it out on The Godfather page, but now he is saying I am using personal attacks as we are discussing it (which I cannot find). I had a full day of editing plots and that included No Country for Old Men as I came across it. I edited it because it was over 700 words and there was no clear consensus, contrary to what Ring stated, which would stop me from editing the article. I already listed my reasons on its respective page and a neutral editor stated he would help way his opinion on the matter. I am now thinking of opening a Rfc on this user. Again EJ, I do not see what counts as a personal attack, but I am merely pointing out this user's history if you go on his talk page and on an earlier discussion for No Country, that he is a known edit warrior and leads many editors in circles. (Check the relevant talk pages) I don't think he wishes to contribute to the project and is violating WP:OWN. That is from what I can see. And of course, then he seeks help, like he is doing with you now and to Gareth, to dress it up as if he is the victim. I do not think there will be a resolution on the talk page of Godfather either. I have written my plot and it conforms to WP:PLOT guidelines but this user continually reverts the plot back which is where the dispute arose. My point is this is not an edit conflict over opinion, this is a conflict between someone trying to uphold policy and someone (who is known to edit war) getting in the way. I am sorry you did not see it that way EJ, due to time constraints and I apologise to the lengthy battle on the resolution board which this user initiated. (My fault for falling for his trap and having you nearly sanction me). JTBX (talk) 04:33, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- Is that a warning to me? These are pretty notable films and as I stated I came across it during the dispute from a fellow editor who reported you, seeing as the plot was over 700 words I cut it back and improved it, and have sought guidance from the talk page from another neutral editor who is helping. Again I do not see what I am doing wrong by being productive. You first pasted this message when I began editing the article, so perhaps you feel you own it? JTBX (talk) 05:08, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
This is getting weird. JTBX is reordering our posts here for some reason. --Ring Cinema (talk) 05:17, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- I simply placed your post below mine because of the time you wrote it. --JTBX (talk) 05:20, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- For some reason, JT removed the post I made here earlier. To reiterate, I have been editing No Country for Old Men for a couple years. He only started editing there since he started with the personal attacks. I have no interest in coming in contact with him, so maybe you could mention to him that the less contact the two of us have, the better. If that seems reasonable. --Ring Cinema (talk) 05:32, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- Aagain, your posts are below mine. Stop moving them up and conflicting the time you wrote them. You are simply attempting to create another unnecessary squabble on an admin's page. JTBX (talk) 06:02, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
I didn't move the posts, JTBX. You did that. --Ring Cinema (talk) 15:04, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- The two of you can request an interaction ban. If you both agree, I can get the process started. EdJohnston (talk) 13:30, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- That's fine if he leaves me alone on No Country for Old Men (film). I think a reasonable person would have predicted it would be disruptive to start editing there at this time. --Ring Cinema (talk) 15:04, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
Amendment: "As an observation, I was appalled yesterday, when I was aware of your weighing into No Country for Old Men, and drew it to Ring's attention, as you have noticed. Not sensible, and really very obvious!" -- Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 09:11, 28 April 2012 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:JTBX&diff=489597300&oldid=489529397
- I'm not sure this is the place to take this. You advised both me and JTBX to "ask the opinion of User:Gareth Griffith-Jones on any further changes they want to make" in your dispute resolution decision. Since that time, JTBX has made at least two edits on the page in question without consulting Gareth. I suggested that the three of us proceed on the basis of unanimity for the time being and there was no objection to that proposal (Gareth agreed to it explicitly). However, Here and here, JTBX has made changes to the article without consulting and without consensus. --Ring Cinema (talk) 23:18, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- Why not ask User:Dennis Brown for advice. You still have the ability to open a WP:Request for comment, whether JTBX cooperates or not. Dennis might have other suggestions. EdJohnston (talk) 23:41, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
My response: I originally thought of engaging Gareth but as you can see on his messages to Ring-Cinema he has other plans, trying to court me along falsely so that they can continue editing the article as if they own it. Besides it was a suggestion to contact Gareth and not written in stone, especially if he is clearly no longer acting as a neutral memeber. I have been busy but will open a RFc as that was the original plan. Ring's so called violations of mine are a joke. Look at the history, a user called Chaheel edited an improvement to the plot, cutting out two unnecessary words which I already had cut out in my plot draft I had put forward. But if I had put those improvements forward, I would have been reverted, (which actually heppened by Gareth), the acting neutral editor but in reality colluding with Ring to violate WP:PLOT and policy. Meat-puppetry?
If that isn't enough, Ring took the issue to the Adminstrators noticeboard wrongly, but admin Captain Screebo noticed he was a known edit warrior by looking through his history. We have already discussed it at Dennis's page, who noticed the same thing. Despite all of this, I still wanted to remain friendly with Gareth and reached out to him on his talk page, after editing The Godfather Part II, the second film, which had a plot of over 2,000 words. I cut it down after a lot of effort to about 1,200, but Gareth reverted my changes as unacceptable. Okay, I thought. But then I saw this User Talk: Ring Cinema, he immediately notified Ring and didn't even leave me a message, even though Part II has nothing to do with the conflict.
Lastly, if personal attacks mean anything, look at how Ring responded on Gareth's page to me. Thanks JTBX (talk) 00:08, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
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