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POV Problem

This article may be not neutral because some opinions of Chinese government are ignored. In addition, the fact that Falun gong organization involved in Chinese politics and damage the Chinese society should also be mentioned in the article.--A20120312 (talk) 16:20, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Can you provide reliable sources that explain how Falun Gong "damage the Chinese society"? Vague allegations of bias are not sufficient grounds to add a POV tag to a page. You need to provide detailed, actionable recommendations for improvement based on quality sources, in compliance with WP:V, WP:NPOV, etc. By the way, the "opinions" of the Chinese government, as expressed through their propaganda campaign against the group, are represented in the article. But they can't be used as primary sources, obviously, so they are expressed in a neutral manner through secondary, reliable sources. Homunculus (duihua) 17:56, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Don't bother looking for objectivity here, A20120312. This article is completely controlled by Falun Gong SPA's who are probably being paid. That's why it reads like a promotional piece.

The opinions of the Chinese government are no more biased than those of the Falun Gong sympathisers, and they are often more academically sound and more consistent with reality. Anybody who has actually spent any notable amount of time in China just chuckles at FLG propaganda like "70 million practitioners in mainland China" and "FLGers are tortured and murdered simply for doing Qigong". AnAimlessRoad (talk) 13:41, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Hom I suggest you don't bother arguing with these people. Don't feed the troll(s?). The Sound and the Fury (talk) 16:55, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Chen Fuzhao

I see that an article for Chen Fuzhao was created and speedily deleted. If there isn't going to be a separate article, does he merit a mention here ? Coverage in the Chinese media can certainly be included here to give the Chinese government's side of the story and there are also these sources

• China poisoner sentenced to die - BBC
• ARRESTED. CHEN FUZHAO - TIME
• Falun Gong follower to die for poisoning 16 - The Age/Reuters

I'm not very familiar with the media coverage of Chen Fuzhao in China but given that the government cited him in a letter to the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights and said "In May this year Falun Gong practitioner Chen Fuzhao, of Chanan County, Zhejiang Province, misled by Li Hongzhi, put poison in the food of some beggars, leading to the deaths of 16 of them and one Buddhist", I assume they are employing the case as part of their campaign, which may be notable. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:10, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

As I understand, there have been many specific instances of the government's anti-Falun Gong propaganda, and references for some of them could also be found, I imagine, in similar volume. At the moment the section on "media campaign" addresses the broad issues associated with anti-Falun Gong propaganda. I'm not sure if a particular case study is necessary, or, were it, whether Chen Fuzhao would be the most emblematic or notable case to include. I would imagine that in-depth discussion of particular propaganda cases associated with the media campaign against Falun Gong may be best placed on the page specifically about the persecution, where there is more room to elaborate. I think it would be too much detail for this article. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 19:25, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

In order to assess overall notability to the subject of Falun Gong, it would be helpful if some of the scholarly works on Falun Gong described this case. A cursory search through my collection of academic literature doesn't turn up any reference to Chen Fuzhao, but I may be missing something. There are a few sources that mention, in general terms, that the government's propaganda campaign includes attempts to link Falun Gong to violence and murder, and that's already mentioned on the page, albeit briefly.Homunculus (duihua) 19:59, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

I was skeptical initially on inclusion, but Sean brought here 3 high quality major news reliable sources: BBC, Time Magazine and Reuters. Probably we could mention Chen Fuzhao in couple of sentences, while attributing carefully the information. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 19:42, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

I fully expect Falun Gong practitioner-editors to paint it as another "conspiracy" orchestrated by the Chinese government, just like the Tiananmen self-immolation "conspiracy" and the Fu Yibin "conspiracy". This article will never reflect a balanced viewpoint as long as cult-members maintain their overwhelming grip upon it. AnAimlessRoad (talk) 19:48, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

It's unclear to me whether it deserves to be included here, in the WP:POVFORK-ish Persecution of Falun Gong or neither. There are clues that it has some significance for both sides. For example, this interestingly structured editorial in China Daily ends dramatically with "If the self-elevation of Falun Gong practitioners has to be conditional on the killing of innocent others, it constitutes a heinous threat to public security. And that brooks no tolerance." and the World Organization to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong's fairly extensive efforts to distance themselves from the case and refute the government's story (see ). Without decent independent secondary source coverage of the various narratives it's difficult to get a balanced overview. Sean.hoyland - talk 14:35, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

AnAimlessRoad, I see what you mean about the cultists maintaining their overwhelming grip upon this wiki page. As soon as I added material, sourced by verifiable, trustworthy sources as per Misplaced Pages's rules, some religious fanatics reverted the changes I made almost immediately. They did not check the sources, they deleted the information apparently because it conflicts with the propaganda the rest of the article is full of. I wish other wikipedists and administrators would take note of this behaviour and really check this article thorougly. 91.63.202.190 (talk) 20:07, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

I share the general sentiments that this page is being patrolled by a small group of users who go great lengths to write the article to conform with Falun Gong's worldviews. It's correct to say that it amounts to a textbook case of using Misplaced Pages as a propaganda tool, and over the years the Falun Gong users have perfected it, and discouraged everyone else from participating. My past experiences have taught me that unless Misplaced Pages's leadership steps up to combat the blatant POV-pushing (perhaps more accurately "POV-scrubbing") that happens here with the same dedication they have shown at Scientology, a few new users (or IP users) with scant Wiki experience cannot do much to restore balance. For the time being most of us 'involved' experienced users have (sadly) all left Falun Gong articles because of the trauma it inflicted. Colipon+(Talk) 01:04, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

I hope that observers of this page do not think that comments like those above represent an acceptable form of engagement on Misplaced Pages. To the contrary:

• Misplaced Pages is not a forum for general discussion
• Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox for propaganda or advocacy
• Misplaced Pages users are expected to assume good faith
• Misplaced Pages's civility policy prohibits "religious slurs, and derogatory references to groups such as social classes or nationalities."

Note that User:AnAimlessRoad has been indefinitely banned from the site for abusing talk pages in this way. User 91.63.202.190 has also been blocked.—Zujine|talk 05:10, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Central teachings

First three of total four paragraphs rely on the primary source: Li Hongzhi, Zhuan Falun. So I tagged the section. I would suggest to re-source using secondary references. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 21:29, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Good call. I'll work on that. Homunculus (duihua) 21:30, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Agada, can you explain these changes? I missed some primary sources in my last round of edits. I could fix those too if you pointed them out specifically. It's not super pressing, though; the presence of some primary sources, used sparingly to describe themselves, does not violate policy. You've gone and stripped them out of various sections of the article where, I believe, they were used appropriately to begin with.

In addition, you have removed all references to Zhuan Falun, even when the statements were clearly quoting Zhuan Falun, and there were other secondary sources used. Why did you feel this was necessary? You seem to believe that Misplaced Pages policy forbids the presence of primary sources, even when supported by others. This isn't the case.

You also requested quotations for every single item within 'teachings' where it wasn't provided in the reference. Why would you do that? I provided quotations within some of the references when they contained particularly short, quotable excerpts. Sometimes the issues are described in the course of paragraphs or several paragraphs. Sometimes I just didn't feel like adding a quote for everything. Are you going to require that every single thing in the article contains the quotation within the reference? I just don't understand what you're trying to do. If there is a particular item that you're not sure about, you can ask me on the talk page to give you a quotation.

In addition, you removed a very salient, germane image by saying it was unrelated. You also replaced an image that had been removed, noting in edit summary that removal hadn't been explained. Removal actually was explained. The image illustrated a sub-topic of Falun Gong—a 'Tuidang' protest in Hong Kong. The caption was also full of grammatical and spelling errors.

You also removed a large paragraph of densely sourced material about Falun Gong's demography in the 1990s. You said this was original synthesis. Could you explain why? This paragraph was proposed to you months ago. I asked repeatedly for your feedback on it before putting on the page. You have never explained where you think the problem is. Homunculus (duihua) 12:21, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Nothing pressing about changes and thank you for taking part in the clean up. I would appreciate quotation of marked sources. Could you explain on images? Would you mind posting diffs, and maybe opening separate discussion would be beneficial for clarity of discussion. AgadaUrbanit (talk)

As you are the one who made these edits, and since I have already explained my objections, I think the onus is on you to answer the questions. There is something slightly tendentious about demanding that another editor open multiple discussion threads as a prerequisite to engaging with you about your activities. There is also something tendentious about demanding that other editors provide you with quotations for 17 (!) cited statements that, to anyone familiar with the literature, would not appear the least bit controversial.Homunculus (duihua) 12:55, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't have access for the sources, that is why I am requesting quotation for WP:V. Copy of relevant pages in the source would do. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 13:07, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

The page of the reference should be noted as a matter of course, in the citation. Homunculus is under no obligation to provide you with a copy of the pages from the books if that is what you are suggesting. I'm not sure what scenario is being imagined, that he scan them and email them to you? That would probably violate copyright law. Verify them by buying them or going to a major library in your city.

On to the primary source policy. Here are some lines from it Misplaced Pages:No_original_research#Primary.2C_secondary_and_tertiary_sources:

Appropriate sourcing can be a complicated issue, and these are general rules. Deciding whether primary, secondary or tertiary sources are appropriate on any given occasion is a matter of good editorial judgment and common sense, and should be discussed on article talk pages... A primary source may only be used on Misplaced Pages to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source.

I think it's a good idea to make sure this section has better sources. But deleting the line "Falun Gong exercises can be practiced individually or in group settings, and can be performed for varying lengths of time in accordance with the needs and abilities of the individual practitioner." seems a bit strange, doesn't it? This is not a controversial claim (i.e., it is true of many activities.) Nor have the reasons that no primary sources be used in a section that is about Falun Gong's teachings been properly discussed. I can see the need for controversial claims or unique interpretations, but for straightforward facts like that above, what is the problem with a primary citation?

Thus, the wholesale removal of these primary sources appears to me inappropriate. And I also note AU's removal of the figures, among all these deleting actions: .

Numbered below are the actions I am going to take. If there are any points disputed, use the number to refer to it and explain why. No particular order.

1. Restore the primary sources here because there is nothing problematic or controversial about their use. There are no interpretive or analytical claims being made. furthermore, in most cases there is already a secondary source cited. There is really no need for another source. The primary source references could simply be deleted if necessary, but I think it would be wise to keep them for sake of completeness in referencing.
2. restore these deletions. Again, there are no interpretive or synthetic claims being made with the reliable sources. The reference to faluninfo falls within our policy either, because a Falun Gong advocacy group is a reliable source on the views of Falun Gong.
3. Restore the rather mundane claim about the practice of FLG's exercises. The other two parts simply do not need more than one citation. I'll remove the tags.
4. these are unremarkable claims. You wish to delete ‘’The book Falun Gong is an introductory text that discusses qigong and provides illustrations and explanations of the exercises and meditation.’’ because it is cited to a primary source? That is not the purpose of the primary source policy. You have evidently misread it. It is not a problem to use primary sources to substantiate such simple statements (similarly for the next paragraph).
5. similarly.
6. I think there are better images we could use than this one. I’ll replace it with something that is more normal.
7. This deletion was inappropriate. This has been discussed at length above. I say no more on it here. The information relates to the number of practitioners in China. There is no synthesis. It is clear representation from secondary sources. Please do not edit Misplaced Pages disruptively. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 14:05, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

• Done. It was a good idea to have an image in the response to suppression section (and I was about to say: get rid of the irrelevant image in the demography section, but then I realized it may have been meant as a representation that there are both old and young people who practice the religion? Unsure.), however I replaced it with a better image that is 1) in English, 2) Makes a simple and clear representation. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 14:17, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I've noticed following editnotice on Sathya Sai Baba page, maybe we could substitute in that message Sai Baba with Li Hongzhi/Falun Gong and utilize this message here. Just a thought. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 15:45, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I think it would be a great idea if we ever do have a problem with editors trying to make unique and interesting use of primary sources in this subject area. At the moment we don't seem to have that problem. As mentioned, there are cases where primary sources are no problem. Simple statements of fact that, for example, someone can do exercises with others or by themselves, or that, a certain book has illustrations and text, is a perfectly acceptable use of primary sources. Further, most of the time in the sections on Falun Gong teachings there are both primary and secondary sources provided. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 18:06, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the guideline on reliable sources applies by default to all pages on Misplaced Pages. We don't seem to have a particular problem here of primary sources being used inappropriately to cite novel, controversial, or interpretive statements. With that said, sometime in the next...oh..48 hours or so, I would be agreeable to providing page numbers for specific statements you would like clarification on. There are also statements (like the one mentioned by TSTF above) that would benefit from an added secondary source, and I can do that too. For now, other work. Homunculus (duihua) 18:15, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I've consulted with Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Religion/Manual of style. It might be important to include quotes from Li Hongzhi /Zhuan Falun as an important and known religious source. However there is a question about the use of faluninfo/clearwisdom/clearharmony as a direct source using material published on their site rather than via secondary source coverage. There are some relevant RSN discussions I've browsed. In practice, here they are, some in articles namespace:

• faluninfo
• clearwisdom
• clearharmony

AgadaUrbanit (talk) 22:48, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes. I know. The page does include quotes from Li Hongzhi. The quotes selected are those that are also quoted in high quality secondary sources, which is why they now have both the primary and secondary sources attached to them. I did not want this section to get cluttered with in-text citations to this or that scholar; instead it is a more or less unadulterated representation of the moral precepts and understandings that all the major scholars agree compose Falun Gong's core beliefs. In select cases where the secondary sources quote Li, I incorporated some of those quotes. As to the use of faluninfo, clearwisdom, and clearharmony, I recommend that the latter two should be treated as primary sources. Faluninfo is in a slightly different category (I tend to think of it as the equivalent of the International Campaign for Tibet); it is frequently cited in academic works (so is clearwisdom, actually, but cautiously), and by NGOs, human rights groups, and governments. I'm pretty sure it's what David Ownby was referring to when he spoke of Falun Gong publications that are generally considered trustworthy in these communities. I still think that this source should be used sparingly, and in-text citations can be provided when circumstances call for it. As to the other two, Misplaced Pages permits the use of primary sources as sources about themselves, but they should be used with all the caveats that normally apply to primary sources. From the lists you provided, it appears that these sources almost never appear on Misplaced Pages pages (though there are a number of talk page links to clearwisdom). What is the value of this exercise? Homunculus (duihua) 00:14, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I guess the exercise is editing Misplaced Pages in accordance with WP:V. The content of the first three of total four paragraphs in the section was challenged, due to usage of primary sources. So now, when you added the secondary sources, to support the old content, it appears per policy that the WP:BURDEN lies on you, Homunculus. Please provide the quotes. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 19:09, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

The section you cited says:

The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. You may remove any material lacking an inline citation to a reliable source. Whether and how quickly removal should happen depends on the material and the overall state of the article; consider adding a citation needed tag as an interim step. Editors might object if you remove material without giving them time to provide references. It has always been good practice to try to find and cite supporting sources yourself. Do not leave unsourced or poorly sourced material in an article if it might damage the reputation of living people; you should also be aware of how the BLP policy applies to groups.

It doesn't say anything about providing the actual quotes from the sources. Homunculus, please don't waste your time. AgadaUrbanit, if you want the quotes go to the library and get the books, or buy them, or whatever. There's no obligation for anyone to type out the quotes for you as a matter of course. If you have some particular question or reasonable dispute with a particular phrasing, that you can explain, then as a matter of collegiality and good faith I think it would be fair enough to fish the quote out from the book; this doesn't appear to be such a case. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 19:26, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't intend to waste my time. This section is already extremely densely sourced (arguably too much so). I've provided page numbers, as well as several quotes. I have more than fulfilled the burden of proof. If Agada is insinuating that secondary sources were inappropriately added retroactively to support primary source material, I would merely assure him that this section was originally written through extensive reference to the secondary sources; that's why it was so easy to add dozens of them when asked. I just didn't previously see the need to overload the section with dozens of refs to corroborate claims that are plainly obvious to anyone with basic knowledge of Falun Gong morality. But now I have done that, and have no more time to entertain these tendentious demands. Homunculus (duihua) 21:47, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Falun_Gong#Categorization edit

In the 'classification' section, I saw that an editor removed a discussion of whether falungong meets the definition of a 'sect.' The edit summary suggested content violated WP:PARAPHRASE, but I don't see how. WP:PARAPHRASE is meant to prevent subtle copyright violations that take the form of very close paraphrasing. The deleted content didn't seem to have that problem. It was unsourced, but sources could easily be found and added. On a related note, I think this section could also use an expanded discussion of the 'religion' classification, especially in terms of the Chinese conceptualisation of religion (I think Penny and Ownby have written on this. I'll try to find what I'm thinking of).—Zujine|talk 05:18, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

For "sect" classification, you can cite to Porter. Ownby had a 2003 article in Nova Religio that similarly explained why Falun Gong (as well as some historical redemptive societies) don't meet the definition of a sect or sectarian movement. For the religion issue, as you know Penny's latest book discussed the classification both in explicit and indirect terms. This testimony by David Ownby on the definition of religion in Chinese society might also be close to what you're looking for. I'm not sure where the Ian Johnson quote originally came from, or if it's necessary. But if you have it, you may want to check his book Wild Grass for something similar. Finally, Danny Schechter provides a poignant rebuttal to some of these classifications, though he's operating at the level of dissecting journalistic and popular discourse, not sociological definitions. Good luck. Homunculus (duihua) 16:54, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

The content removed was unsourced. I've tried to look for the Ian Johnson quote and failed to find secondary reliable sources. I would appreciate if the new material per Ownby would be posted on this talk page first. It could be a good sign of collaboration. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 22:48, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Agada, you might want to consider that, instead of removing anything that doesn't have a source, you can add a request for citation. If a citation is not provided in a reasonable period of time, then it may be appropriate to remove the material. This of course doesn't apply to material that clearly violates policy, such as WP:BLP. Try not to overdo it, of course. It's not that every single sentence needs a citation (see WP:Citation overkill). In this case, I think it's fair to challenge the material, particularly the part that quotes Johnson. I asked Zujine to check Ian Johnson's book Wild Grass to see if the quote, or something similar, is contained therein. If we cannot find something that more directly cites this quote to Johnson, I suggest leaving it out per WP:V.Homunculus (duihua) 00:23, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I was actually hoping to explain why falungong doesn't generally self-identify as a religion (not why the government doesn't consider it as such), but the Ownby testimony might still be of some use. I think I know where to find what I'm looking for.—Zujine|talk 14:09, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Please take a look. I expanded a little on the various forms of classification as a cultivation practice, religion, and sect. Hopefully the language and descriptions are still accessible to average readers. I also trimmed and moved the paragraph from Craig Burgdoff, as it didn't belong in this section (and some of it was actually already repeated elsewhere).—Zujine|talk 21:23, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

It looks quite good, though I don't consider myself a good judge of accessibility. I was doing some of my own readings on this from old journal articles, and was wondering whether it would be possible or desirable to elaborate on the idea that, if Falun Gong had openly identified as a religion in the 1990s, it would have been immediately suppressed because the party only recognizes the five officially sanctioned religions. Ian Johnson did an article about this topic, but it's also discussed by Ownby, Penny, et al. This was actually one of the original sources of contention with the party-state in the mid-1990s: some people criticized Falun Gong because it clearly had theological and religious elements, but "hid" behind the mantle of qigong in order to gain official acceptance. It's kind of a silly debate to me, particularly since qigong itself was originally a deeply religious practice, and was only reclassified under Communism as a branch of Chinese medicine rather than religious exercise. But regardless of the merits of the argument, it is important in understanding the point of view of Falun Gong's earliest critics. Maybe there's another article that would be better suited for this. I'm not sure. Homunculus (duihua) 03:05, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

• I deleted a sentence that was added to categorisation that said "According to Gallagher-Ashcraft Falun Gong movement is an assaulted nonviolent millennial group in China." This was inserted in the middle of a discussion of whether falungong meets the definition of a religion, and it does not belong there. I tried finding another place for it, but it didn't seem to fit. "Assaulted nonviolent millennial group" is not really a category of classification. It is a just a collection of adjectives. Ethan Gutmann likes to call falungong a "Buddhist revival movement," and I'm sure many other scholars have their own terms, but I think we should keep this section focused on broad categories of classification. I feel similarly about "new religious syncretism," but decided to keep it, since it is used by at least two different scholars.
• On the importance of the qigong / religion debate in 1990s China, I don't think that belongs in this section either. It seems more fitting in a 'history,' if anywhere. Would it be possible to explain this issue sufficiently in a sentence or two?—Zujine|talk 14:35, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Death toll

The question remains as to how many Falun Gong practitioners were persecuted to death. I have a gut feeling that the number is around 800-1000 from July 1999 until now. Also, the claim that half of all people sentenced to reeducation through labor are FLG practitioners are without solid evidence. Why are there so few sympathizers of the FLG movement inside mainland China from the Tiananmen incident in 2001 to the Bo Xilai incident this year? I wonder that given all the people released from RTL throughout the years, the number of sympathizers should ideally be quite high, especially in today's Weibo/Twitter era. Yet even mainstream dissidents in China have rarely spoken out on behalf of the FLG movement. The fact that there is a dramatic reduction in the number of FLG practitioners in mainland China might not pinpoint to an actual reduction. It could be that there is only a dramatic reduction in the number of FLG practitioners in PUBLIC in mainland China. For people accusing of me of trying to whitewash a crime, well, I am not defending the CPC persecution of FLG or any of its other crimes. For this matter, I am only trying to objectively determine the true death toll related to FLG in China. It is just too obvious that the 5-figures number is wrong. Now I am throwing into doubt the 4-figures number. Is it possible to find ANY source out there that agrees with my number? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.244.24.47 (talk) 10:11, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the comment, though I must advise that Misplaced Pages is not a forum for general discussion on one's personal feelings about an issue. I checked through the paragraph in the article that cites these numbers, and found that the wrong state department report was referenced. I've fixed that, added some additional references (including one that presents a more conservative ratio), and also added quotations within those references that you can refer to if you wish to do your own reading (you can view them at the bottom of the page). If you come across other reliable sources publishing different estimates, you're welcome to introduce those to give a more complete picture. On the death toll, the section already appears to describe a full spectrum of estimates given by experts on the subject, though if you can find more (from reliable sources, such as books, journal articles, human rights reports, etc), please share.Homunculus (duihua) 14:15, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

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