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Clean list of sources

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Iatrogenic model has been renamed "sociocognitive", google scholar search

• Farrell, 2011, Dissociative Identity Disorder: Medicolegal Challenges pdf
• Boysen, 2011, The scientific status of childhood dissociative identity disorder: a review of published research
• Foote, 2008, Dissociative identity disorder and schizophrenia: differential diagnosis and theoretical issues
• Manning 2009, Convergent paradigms for visual neuroscience and dissociative identity disorder
• Brand et al. 2011, A survey of practices and recommended treatment interventions among expert therapists...

Attention: This template ({{cite doi}}) is deprecated. To cite the publication identified by doi:10.1037/a0026487, please use {{cite journal}} (if it was published in a bona fide academic journal, otherwise {{cite report}} with |doi=10.1037/a0026487 instead.

• Drob et al, 2009, Clinical and conceptual problems in the attribution of malingering in forensic evaluations.
• Lowenstein, in Vermetten et al., 2007 (ISBN 158562196X), Traumatic dissociation: neurobiology and treatment
• Weiner & Craighead, 2010, The Corsini Encyclopedia of Psychology
• - ISSTD advising against "truth serum" interviews
• NPR story, probably better for looking into sources rather than actual citation
• Ross, 2009, Errors of logic and scholarship concerning dissociative identity disorder (addresses Piper and Mersky)
• Kluft, 2007, The older female patient with a complex chronic dissociative disorder.
• Korol, 2008, Familial and social support as protective factors against the development of dissociative identity disorder.
• Clancy, 2010, The Trauma Myth ISBN 046501688X
• Lilienfeld & Lynn, 2003, Science and pseudoscience in clinical psychology (chapter 5)
• Lilienfeld, 2011, Distinguishing Scientific From Pseudoscientific Psychotherapies (possibly useful)
• MacDonald, 2008, Dissociative disorders unclear? Think ‘rainbows from pain blows’
• Kring, 2009, Abnormal psychology
• Lynn et al. 2010, Dissociation and dissociative identity disorder: Treatment guidelines and cautions
• 2008 Singh, A study in dualism: The strange case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde
• 2001 Sutker, Comprehensive handbook of psychopathology
• 2006 Rieber, The bifurcation of the self
• 2011 Tavris, Multiple Personality Deception
• Bravman, 2010, Controversy: Dissociative Identity Disorder
• 1997, Lewis et al. Objective documentation of child abuse and dissociation in 12 murderers with dissociative identity disorder
• Merckelbach

The possible connection between having an alter ego and having Dissociative Identity Disorder.

I am trying to clean up and revitalize the "alter ego" article and i am trying to state the possibility of there being a link between Dissociative Identity Disorder and having an alter ego. I am having trouble and i was wondering if i am to research this, what qualify as an acceptable resource ? I have started gathering information, and I think that this would be an amazing contribution to both articles. Help would be appreciated, Thank you in advance. Your opinion matters.

Tj1224 (talk) 22:16, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

AFAIK, alter egos are more in the vein of being the complete opposite of the normal "ego" of the person, whereas "alters" (alternate personalities in DID) are more distinct and not generally "completely opposite" of the host personality - although Jekyll and Hyde does come up in both articles and a google scholar search will give you a lot of information based on that. Sorry I can't help more. Forgotten Faces (talk) 01:07, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

This article is the one used in the DID article, and it does say it's used now as a classic case of DID in literature, but does not call them alter egos anywhere in the text. Forgotten faces (talk) 01:26, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Paranoia

I can't see a reason to remove "paranoia" from the list of signs and symptoms. There's a source, is it misrepresented? A brief search on google found several other more recent sources also citing paranoia as something expressed by patients with DID, suggesting it's still a concern. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 14:18, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Note that a discussion about this is occurring at User talk:Tylas#Paranoia, but I will attempt to move it here so more editors can comment. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 15:21, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Show me some GOOD research that paranoia is a symptom of DID - not fringe stuff. Nowhere have I ever seen paranoia listed as a symptom of DID - and I do read the research of experts and avoid fringe ideas. It is certainly not a common or widely accepted symptom of DID. Are you again going to stop each and EVERY change I try and make to the DID article? It's suppose to be a group work. Not a WLU (and friends that support him) article. Why do I threaten you so much! ~ty (talk) 15:35, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

How do you define "good" research? Becuase it sounds like by "good" you mean "research I already agree with". WP:FRINGE specifies nonmainstream sources like self-published books. Psychiatry, where Ellason, Ross & Fuchs published their article, does not seem to be such a journal. My threshold for sources is whether they are reliable.

Articles on wikipedia are written in accordance with the policies and guidelines. Editors who ignore these policies and guidelines, particularly to push specific points of view, often get blocked. The P&G exist to ensure a higher quality of article that represents all relevant aspects of a topic, not just the ones certain editors like. The P&G are the rules to ensure editors can agree that even if they dislike a specific aspect of a topic, there is a way to determine if it should be included and how. For instance, I have undone your change to the DSM-V section because the rationale tab of the APA page which specifies both conversion and somatoform disorders. I'm not targetting your edits any more than I am any other editor - but your edits to date tend to have rather egregious flaws. You don't threaten me, you're an inexperienced editor who has a tendency to edit in accordance to your personal beliefs rather than what reliable sources say. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 16:14, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Don't start preaching that crap to me again! I saw how Misplaced Pages works! You get your buddies all together and force your agenda! I have no doubt that you will try and get me blocked. It fits your pattern. If you can't win, go to your friends. Good research is mainstream! Not that by a few people that try to discredit something. I don't threaten you as a wikipedia editor, no - but I do as someone that really has DID and knows what you are and you can't handle that. Check the link to the updated DSM 5 criteria. You will see that my edit is NOT what you claim. It is a correct edit. He he... Paranoia is a great title for this section. ~ty (talk) 16:36, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Do you accept that Psychiatry is not a fringe source? Do you accept that it is in fact a reliable source? Rather than again resorting to personal attacks and assuming bad faith, why not address my substantive points? It means that sometimes the page will contain information that you personally disagree with - but it also ensures that well-sourced information you agree with will remain. Note that I have not contacted any other editors, thus arguing against me trying to "gang up on you with my buddies". All I'm trying to do is show why I am editing the way I am, and asking you to adhere to the same sets of rules and guidelines. Hardly unreasonable. I don't give a shit whether or not you have DID, I'm just asking you to edit in accordance with wikipedia's rules. That is hardly unreasonable. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 16:44, 18 May 2012 (UTC

There is NO assuming here! I have already been your victim! Both edits I made are correct. It does not matter what I agree with. I might have my own ideas of how the DSM 5 should be, but I posted what IS! Also Paranoia is not an acceptable symptom of DID. You have it confused with Schizophrenia. I have presented evidence. You are just sticking to your same old arguments. No one is right but WLU.~ty (talk) 16:50, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

What evidence have you presented? WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 17:02, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

You have not contacted them YET! But you did already threaten to take me to the Admin board where many of them hang out.~ty (talk) 17:34, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

You don't appear to understand the difference between content and behaviour issues. I asked you to remove a rather egregious personal attack from your talk page; if you don't, I will raise this behavioural issue at ANI. The content discussion is happening now, and like most of my efforts to date it consists of an attempt to get you to read and understand our content policies. I see no need to bring the content issues up at ANI. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 17:38, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

It was already removed before you posted this threat to me. Yes, I do know the difference between behavior and content issues. That has been on my page for a very long time and you did not care until I came back to edit. ~ty (talk) 18:58, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Ty, I personally wrote like 90% of that section now, and I assure you that reference is correct. Also, in my personal experience (which doesn't mean jack shit on wikipedia), I have experienced paranoia as a symptom of my DD. Paranoia doesn't have to be a psychotic symptom. Have you never thought someone was talking to you behind your back, or unreasonably feared that a past abuser would somehow come back from the dead (or whatever)? That is paranoia. It should be on the list unless you can prove that the citing is incorrect. Feel free to do that. I do not have my articles anymore unfortunately - my hard drive crashed and somehow my backup virtual data account got messed up. Also I am mostly computerless for the next few weeks so I won't be making my own edits until at least then. I am going to be doing research on DID and other dissociative disorders to write some articles with some help, so I'll be doing it anyway and might as well help wikipedia. Gotten a bit of wikipedia fever going on. Forgotten Faces (talk) 20:32, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Okay Sweetie. I trust you do make it a good article. Take a deeper look at the paranoia thing. That is not usually considered to be a symptom, instead it helps distinguish Schizophrenia from DID. Also the proposed DSM 5 is updated as per the edit I did. Both were correct edits. Keep up the good work. I will spend my time elsewhere if you have this under control and will check back time to time.~ty (talk) 17:47, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

I've looked into the citation used, and it is a primary source that is quite old. I will try to find a secondary source that discusses the issue, but as is I do not consider it a great source to include and would prefer to either demote or remove paranoia from the list. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 19:40, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

After looking for a while, I could not find a recent, secondary source that identified paranoia as a symptom of DID. Normally if something like this is a well-recognized symptom, it would be quite easy to verify with reference to MEDRS. Having this much trouble suggests that these findings were not replicated beyond this one group, or perhaps there some other reason that paranoia is not considered a symptom (several sources alluded to DID and borderline personality disorder being related, with paranoia being a symptom associated with the latter rather than the former, perhaps that is it). I will be removing paranoia from the list of symptoms, please discuss before replacing. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 16:25, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I've removed several bits of text from the signs and symptoms section . The biggest thing is the removal of Rodewall, 2011 (PMID 21278542). This is a primary source, which examined a sample of around 100. Despite being recent, it's quite new (and most importantly - primary). In most cases it was redundant to other citations, in one it wasn't and I removed that text. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 16:43, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Okay. I guess this shows my inexperience in understanding primary/secondary sources. Thanks for fixing it. I'll have my new computer soon and want to start reading up more. Forgotten Faces (talk) 14:27, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Meh, it's a learning process. Primary/secondary It's an important distinction, it helps avoid cherry-picking sources to support some points and ignore others. Generally if a publication that identifies an experimental group, it's probably not a good idea to use it. There are exceptions, but they are pretty rare. It is possible to use the introduction/literature review as a source in these sorts of articles if you're careful - but generally for things that are widely accepted or already known, in which case there's probably a secondary source somewhere anyway.

If you don't already do so, I suggest searching on pubmed before google scholar - it has an option to restrict outputs to only review and meta-analytic articles, which is very helpful (once you've got search results, the option is in the left-hand column). From there, google scholar may be useful in turning up full-text versions. Google books are usually considered secondary sources as well, but the quality and reliability are much more of a crapshoot. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 15:54, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Unable to make simple edits

New Editors to a page should have the right to make GOOD edits.

I made 2 small changes and you - WLU started a war! I do not want to spend my days on this talk page again, but I would like to be able to edit the DID page. You need to accept that others would like to work on this page. ~ty (talk) 17:39, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

1. What changes? Diffs would be helpful.
2. How are they justified by policy/policies or guideline/s? WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 17:42, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Get real! You know what they are - you reverted them and you already replied to my references so you have seen them - quit playing games! I have to run. We will continue this when I am back. Read the WP policy about allowing new editors to work on a page! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tylas (talk • contribs)

If you mean the references on your talk page, that don't mention paranoia, then I have both seen them and commented on why they are irrelevant to this specific point. So if you want to keep paranoia out of the symptom list, you've yet to justify it in a meaningful way. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 19:08, 18 May 2012 (UTC

Better

WLU, thank you for (finally) allowing the edits I suggested. Now those parts of the page are correct - according to the vast amount of information that I have read on the subject of DID. Perhaps it will work like this - so you can continue to micro-manage every bit of this page, yet you know little about DID. If at least I and others can point out to you the errors on the article, then you can look into them and fix them. I don't think WP is suppose to work like this, with you being Lord and Master, but whatever works. Thank you for making those changes! You now have the proposed DSM 5 and paranoia issues on the page correct. In fact, I now agree that the entire list of symptoms listed on the article are the currently accepted symptoms of DID. ~ty (talk) 15:05, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

The difference between "I personally don't think this is a symptom of DID" and "the source supporting inclusion of paranoia as a symptom is a primary source" is significant and if you can't appreciate it, you shouldn't be editing the page. The similarities between our edits are coincidental and differ substantially in compliance with policy. It is not sufficient to "know a lot about DID" - you must demonstrate this knowledge through the verification of the text through reference to reliable sources in a neutral manner. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 20:07, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

That is just more excuses WLU. I do know the difference. You just want what you want on the page, no matter what is correct. You only want those here that you can control and I WONT BE CONTROLLED by you or anyone else.~ty (talk) 18:35, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Proposed DSM 5

Updated April-30-12

Disruption of identity characterized by two or more distinct personality states or an experience of possession. This involves marked discontinuity in sense of self and sense of agency, accompanied by related alterations in affect, behavior, consciousness, memory, perception, cognition, and/or sensory-motor functioning. These signs and symptoms may be observed by others or reported by the individual. Recurrent gaps in the recall of everyday events, important personal information, and/or traumatic events that are inconsistent with ordinary forgetting. The symptoms cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning. The disturbance is not a normal part of a broadly accepted cultural or religious practice. (Note: In children, the symptoms are not attributable to imaginary playmates or other fantasy play.) The symptoms are not attributable to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., blackouts or chaotic behavior during Alcohol Intoxication) or another medical condition (e.g., complex partial seizures).

Specify if:

With prominent non-epileptic seizures and/or other sensory-motor (functional neurologic) symptoms

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