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• Areaseven (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Ryulong (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• User talk:Areaseven (edit | user page | history | links | watch | logs)

A while back, Areaseven and I had some minor disagreements over some article content (mainly images), a wrong button hit, and a patronizing comment he made towards me. Early last month, I discovered that Areaseven had retained a comment I made on his talk page months ago where I used wording that he construed as racist (my response to the previous diff). When I discovered this fact (despite the fact that he removes everything else that ever makes it onto his talk page), and also had added commentary. As he had refactored my original post, I removed his comment along with a harsh word, but then left a comment unrelated to that issue. He then reverted me. In any attempt I made to explain myself, Areaseven ignored it and continued to fail to assume any sort of good faith on my part. After a long and heated discussion with him, he removed everything I said from his page and I avoided dealing with him after leaving this final message where I attempted to end the dispute, which he reverted 2 minutes after I pressed save.

The other day, I attempted to extend an olive branch, once more, and request that Areaseven write some content before another less experienced editor did. After refusing, Areaseven proceeded to add back every discussion we had. My inquiry into this behavior was ignored and Areaseven instead added his own commentary to year old occurences.

Areaseven continues to fail to assume any good faith on my part, whether it be from accidentally hitting the "rollback (vandal)" link instead of the "undo" link, from an unintentional combination of words that he has latched onto as being a racist remark, or feeling referring to an action of multiple image uploads as "overboard" is a slight against him. I understand that he has some personal choice over its content, but at this point he is just being spiteful in keeping his consistent misconstrued opinions over what I've said to him. I will admit that conversations between myself and Areaseven delved into incivility, but there is no reason he should enshrining the discussions he and I have had to mock me.

Also I've posted here, because the last time I posted to WP:ANI regarding a similar situation, I was told it was not meant for that board. If I'm incorrect, again, please move this and tell me where it's gone to.—Ryulong (竜龙) 10:37, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Just to ignore the problem and the user per WP:DENY. If the editor wants to reject an olive branch or do something childish on their usertalk, let them, it only reflects badly on them and not you. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:56, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

But clearly Areaseven should not be allowed to retain this content in a means to spite me.—Ryulong (竜龙) 10:58, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Just wondering, what do you want to get out of this? - Areaseven (talk) 11:10, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

First and foremost, I want you to undo your "Never Forget." edit (and related edits). And I would like to end this unnecessary hostility between us. I am sorry that I have been uncivil towards you, but that is only because I have not once received any sort of civility from you in any of our discussions that I can recall or that I found while writing this up.—Ryulong (竜龙) 11:24, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Fine. Consider this a truce. - Areaseven (talk) 11:54, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

• Guy Macon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Guy Macon is following me around in talk pages, where I participate in on topic discussions, and follow my comments with off topic negative comments related to me and to other discussions:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AIdentifying_reliable_sources_%28medicine%29&diff=500271428&oldid=500222033
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research&diff=prev&oldid=500754332
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk%3ANeutral_point_of_view&diff=500271415&oldid=500244651
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AConflict_of_interest%2FNoticeboard&diff=500077085&oldid=500056847

Regards. --Nenpog (talk) 07:15, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I was really hoping to be able to agree with Guy on this. Proper process for dealing with a person who is alleged to be interfering with WP:Consensus process (like forum shopping) is to notify an administrator. Typically, this would be at AN/I. Guy is advised to follow that process.

Please do keep in mind that if you don't get a consensus at one place, you should try to avoid hopping around until you get what you want. In many cases there is an escalation process, and its possible that you are trying to use that process, although it appears Guy doesn't see it that way. I haven't bothered to read the specifics of this, but please honor consensus, or come up with a novel argument and re-argue the dispute. If you feel like people simply aren't listening, feel free to ask for advice on how to approach it next, but don't try to win by taking something to 10 different places. Nenpog is advised to follow this process. -- Avanu (talk) 08:29, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

• I looked at the links and do not see a wikiquette issue. It is standard procedure to use the contributions list provided for each user to see whether any follow up to an issue is warranted. The way to respond would be to address the substance of the claims made by Guy Macon, preferably on one talk page. Johnuniq (talk) 09:52, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
• OP appears to be forum shopping; nothing wrong with Guy Macon pointing this out. Nobody Ent 10:14, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Its also not in line with consensus building to hound people though. At this point, if it is indeed forum shopping, it needs to be brought up in a place that can adjudicate it, not pushed into discussions as a poison pill. -- Avanu (talk) 10:20, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

What? Above you say you haven't read the specifics, and now you think it's hounding? While supporting editors is great, some judgment is required to choose which side of a disagreement should be supported. I looked at the links, and there is no hounding—as I mentioned, it is an entirely standard procedure and it appears highly appropriate in this case. Johnuniq (talk) 10:28, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

What I meant is that I didn't read the specifics of whether Nenpog was "in the right" in going to all these forums. What I can easily see, however, is that Guy is putting a fairly similar set of notices in each place. If Nenpog is forumshopping, there are places for recourse, specifically AN/I is one example. -- Avanu (talk) 10:34, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Are you withdrawing your statement suggesting that Guy Macon is hounding another editor?

If not, some evidence should be provided very soon.

Anyone with a large number of comments at noticeboards should be aware that people at ANI are tired of every little problem being taken there—it's up to people participating in the community to sort out what they can. Johnuniq (talk) 10:51, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I've given my advice on this, in fact, I was first, so lay off, relax, and read what I said, or don't, your choice. If you have a particular problem with the word 'hound', please point out exactly what *I* meant by it. Thanks. -- Avanu (talk) 10:55, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

It is hard to comprehend how an experienced editor could imagine that it is acceptable to imply that a named editor is hounding another editor. From WP:WIAPA, "What is considered to be a personal attack?...Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence". This is a noticeboard, not a 101 Philosophy course where we discuss whether "hound" has an intrinsic meaning. Johnuniq (talk) 11:13, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)There's no benefit to Misplaced Pages to hash out exactly what noun (gerund?) is most appropriate to describe GM's behavior. Posting a notice at the various forums that the edits where in response to a particular situation was a reasonable thing to do. Starting an ANI thread is a legitimate alternative. Personally I think GMs action was the less inflammatory course of action to take. Nobody Ent 11:19, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Sorry, maybe you could point out exactly where I said that Guy Macon is hounding anyone? Please go read what I actually said which was "Its also not in line with consensus building to hound people". Followed by "if it is indeed forum shopping, it needs to be brought up in a place that can adjudicate it". So, again, relax, stop looking for additional problems, and focus on the issues brought before us here and the two editors involved. Have a great day. P.S. Although I agree with Nobody Ent's comment about this possibly being the less inflammatory approach, we find ourselves here now, and so he should decide whether to continue the method that brought us here, or take it to AN/I. Wouldn't you agree? -- Avanu (talk) 11:23, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I think ya'll should just agree to disagree and take no further action. Nobody Ent 11:30, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)It would be best if Guy and Nenpog could figure out an amicable way to relate going forward. I don't think AN/I wants to see a post where Nenpog has to report Guy, and I doubt Nenpog wants the reverse. I went ahead and read through a bit more of the debates. Nenpog sounds like a person with a very deep understanding of X-Ray technology and seems to be well received in the discussions. Obviously something led to Nenpog going to outside forums for review and advice, but just as Johnuniq says above, if we're going to make a claim, we should back it up. EdJohnston said Nenpog seemed "to be eager to draw attention to the risks of ionizing radiation to the patient" and advised him to "negotiate patiently on the talk page to see if you can reach agreement with the others". I can't say for sure how much of that has happened, but following an editor from page to page and putting up a 'disclaimer' is not a valid approach to consensus. -- Avanu (talk) 11:42, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Since it doesn't seem to be staying closed I'll respond instead. I am not involved in this dispute and don't know all of the background. What I do know is what I observed at COIN and on IRC: Nenpog has been consistently pushing his views on the wiki on multiple noticeboards/locations etc, including IRC. On #wikipedia-en IRC for example, related to this dispute, he joined the channel to argue that being a doctor in a hospital that has a CT scanner is a conflict of interest. He also tried to argue beyond what was reasonable about basing WP:EXCEPTIONAL claims off an unreliable source as well. The level of reliable sources required for this exceptional claim just don't exist. He appears unable to accept any of the responses or points made against his point and continues on, a case of WP:IDHT. It's also clear the content is just not going to go into the article and the consensus is against it, he should drop the WP:STICK and walk away. Guy is fully correct to keep tabs on what Nenpog is doing, because so far it has been consistently disruptive to the point of exacerbation. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:21, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Do I need to respond to these not related allegations? Why not related? Because it is clear from reading my posts, to which Guy Macon has uniformly replied, that each post of mine was about a separate subject. One was about the operational procedures of the COIN, one was about the MEDRS rules, one was about if simple logic is a synthesis, and one was about due weight. Two of these discussions were opened by other people, and I have only joined them and responded to the discussion. Guy Macon came, and has put there his message, that is not even related to the topic being discussed.

IRWolfie joined the discussion here and claimed, well yes, but this is all justified because I am a non related person, that don't know the background, but trust me that I know these non related facts, that prove that Nenpog is the bad guy here, and so he deserves to be followed around with a disclaimer, so that all the other innocent editors will be careful, and this is my own disclaimer here, to warn you of that bad guy, and to remind you, that even if this is not fair, he deserves it. Does this sum it up close enough to what you meant IRWolfie?--Nenpog (talk) 14:21, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I would like to point out that before Nenpog accused me of uncivil behavior he accused me (without evidence) of having an undisclosed conflict of interest. I would have ignored that -- if you volunteer at WP:DRN you will get a few false accusations from disputants -- but he also accused another editor who, like me, chooses to reveal his true name and who is an Emergency Room Physician in Canada. That is totally acceptable behavior.

This started as a content dispute on Talk:X-ray computed tomography where Nenpog faced a lack of consensus (every other editor opposed the changes he wished to make.) My only involvement is as a dispute resolution volunteer who tried to help resolve the conflict when it reached WP:DRN.
He was then blocked for edit-warring and tendentious editing.
He then started Misplaced Pages:Forum shopping, taking his dispute to:
Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine,
Talk:Ionizing radiation,
Misplaced Pages talk:No original research,
Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard,
User talk:Elen of the Roads,
Misplaced Pages talk:Neutral point of view
Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard,
Misplaced Pages talk:No original research (Second time, in a different section),
At least one IRC channel (I don't follow IRC),
And now he is at Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette assistance. I have no intention of reporting Nenpog at AN/I or anywhere else, for the simple reason that his behavior is not harming me. I considered ignoring the behavior, but Nenpog has wasted a large amount of other editor's time time in a large number of places, so I decided that I would simply post a short, fact-based explanation of where he has been with this previously each time his forum shopping takes him to a new noticeboard and not comment after that. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:03, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

The only place in which you haven't comment 'after that' was the NOR talk page, and that is so probably only because you didn't have time to, as your first comment there was made recently in the last day.

BTW, at the NPOV talk page one of the editors responded to Guy with "Cannot fully agree. Nenpog has asked quite a legitimate question"_{Paul Siebert} and then Guy's friend started talking about wolves, and naturally Paul Sibert wondered "What do you mean under "virtual wolves" in this particular case?"_{Paul Siebert}. And I ask too, what do wolves has to do with a discussion about due weight, and what all of the above has to do with someone following me around and posting off topic content where it doesn't belong. I don't get it. --Nenpog (talk) 16:47, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Update: I have split the fresh disclaimer of Guy from the NOR discussion into a subsection, as it was not related, in accordance with WP:TALKO sectioning. Guy have undone that split, and accused me of POV pushing that his disclaimer is off topic. Seems like at this point Guy Macon still think that his disclaimer is in its proper place. --Nenpog (talk) 13:53, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Please WP:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. You wasted my time at WP:NOR after repeatedly being given perfectly good answers elsewhere. I fully approve of that notice there to give the background to what your query was about. My guess is you will eventually be blocked indefinitely as you don't seem to be able to drop the stick. Dmcq (talk) 14:22, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Dmcq, you claim that I was given a good answer to the question ("Is simple logic a SYNTH?"), that was asked at the NOR elsewhere. Please supply a diff of the good answer given elsewhere. --Nenpog (talk) 14:27, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I believe a month ago is about the earliest saying essentially that to you. Dmcq (talk) 15:42, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

That wasn't an answer to whether simple logic is a synth. --Nenpog (talk) 15:45, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

You said 'This is not original research. CT inflict ionizing radiation on patients, and ionizing radiation cause adverse effects' and were responded to with ' When you use a source which does not explicitly mention the article's subject that is WP:SYNTH'. That was pretty clear about you basing the insertion on simple logic and a person telling you it was SYNTH and not admissable under the original research policy and they pointed you at the relevant place which explains it in more detail. Dmcq (talk) 17:00, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

It is pretty clear that that person wrote nothing about simple logic, and gave me an advice that is in line with use of simple logic: "I think that the way to post this is to provide a source which states the range of radiation to which CT machines expose patients, then state that range and reference a source which says what happens at that range."_{Blue Rasberry}. There was no suggestion that I would find an answer in the WP:SYNTH section, as WP:SYNTH was used as a noun ("that is WP:SYNTH"_{Blue Rasberry}). A referral was given to the WP:PRIMARY section, which doesn't include anything discussing logic. The claim that the source must explicitly mention the article's subject was not accompanied by any quote from any policy. For staying on topic, I didn't include here arguments that show that following the links to the mentioned WP:terms wouldn't have provided me with an answer to the question, since that is not relevant to the current question, of whether I have gotten an answer to the simple logic question by Blue Rasberry, and I think that what I wrote proves that I haven't.

Do you have an other diff, that you think is a good answer given elsewhere?--Nenpog (talk) 18:14, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

This is a clear case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. No matter how many times Nenpog is told that he is wrong, he won't listen. In regards to Nenpog's latest complaint, he put my comment into a separate section which he labeled "Guy Macon's disclaimer" while putting his comments and the other responses into a new "Main discussion" section. I reverted with the comment "Nenpog, stop modifying or moving comments that are critical of you in order to push your POV that they are 'off topic' or in any other way not replies to the comment above them." he ignored that edit comment as he ignored Dmcq's response to his complaint above -- more WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:22, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Funny that you come up with WP:ICANTHEARYOU that fits your behavior. Did you hear Avanu comments btw? Do you think that you are being civil? You once wrote that if anyone find your behavior not civil they should tell you. Consider yourself told. --Nenpog (talk) 19:45, 6 July 2012 (UTC)