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:Wingtipvortex how about this, you pick any one issue with any one of these editors and investigate it. I'd be happy with a second opinion. <span style="text-shadow:#c5C3e3 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em;">]</span>] 20:44, 8 Jul 2012 (UTC)
:Wingtipvortex how about this, you pick any one issue with any one of these editors and investigate it. I'd be happy with a second opinion. <span style="text-shadow:#c5C3e3 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em;">]</span>] 20:44, 8 Jul 2012 (UTC)
He has too much humor, which is not a problem, but uses it on humour-barred pages(PALZ9000 also does) which is the problem. Yes and i just asked if it was wise to put santions on him. If he disobeyes the santions, he'd have to face a block for 90 days.] ] From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 11:06, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
This page is within the scope of WikiProject Spaceflight, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of spaceflight on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SpaceflightWikipedia:WikiProject SpaceflightTemplate:WikiProject Spaceflightspaceflight
I had this template on my userpage for quite some time. Would it be interesting to put such counters on actual infoboxes for the spacecraft? I can develop the template further if so. This would be the ETA to the planet, asteroid or whatever is the target. Can be customized more for data such as "expected mission termination". -- A Certain White Cat 01:27, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
yes, there are parser arguments that can cut up the output of that template, also, you can examine the code of the template and play with it until everything shows what you want it to show. I think I usually look up wp:magic words and Help:Extension:ParserFunctions. there are examples of slicing things up on the ISS talkpage for the PALZ robot, and some mathematical functions as well I think. There are more on his userpage herePenyulap ☏ 03:16, 10 Jun 2012 (UTC)
If it is implemented perhaps it could be activated? -- A Certain White Cat 15:31, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
I can't see why not, it seems like a great idea. there is code I can remember for a countdown, it is on the International space station talkpage. (wait a sec).. here it is Template:Countdown. It's often hard to find the thing you want, and hard to know if it exists, this one I have used before so I remember it. Penyulap ☏ 16:18, 10 Jun 2012 (UTC)
Maps and plans of space ports
I've been playing with OpenStreetMap and made this. Is it worth making any more? Concerns are that we don't have a lot of detail and they may not be accurate. Plesetsk site 43Secretlondon (talk) 17:45, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
Penyulap
He is one of the more prolific editors but he's extremely biased and for the most part he has no idea about the subjects he contributes to. I don't mean to turn this into a witch hunt but what can be done about him?--Craigboy (talk) 02:59, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
I've talked to multiple times but he doesn't really listen and then goes off on strange tangents that have nothing to do with what we're talking about.--Craigboy (talk) 12:04, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm also becoming increasingly tired of his disruptive editing. He keeps flogging a dead horse with the ISS dialect dispute, as soon as he thinks its been forgotten he just brings it back up again trying to wikilawyer to get his own way, and when the consensus invariably goes against him, he just claims it is invalid. It's got to the stage now that I can't have a discussion with him because he just goes off at a tangent claiming everything I say is invalid because I don't accept his position on this issue. It is at best disruptive editing, and at worst harassment. --W.D.Graham14:27, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
Morning folks, nice to be back. I can't agree more with this - ever since he waltzed in, making 'improvements' to the ISS article which led to its FA delisting and current sorry state, I've been appalled by his behaviour - take the section above regarding the new portal which arrived. He's marked it as resolved, but all that's happened is he's 'made contact' and written a load of gibberish in response. No discussion took place at all. Takes it upon himself to declare policy and make edits which should be via consensus, and it's extremely irritating & disruptive. SalopianJames (talk) 08:46, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Penyulap, it might actually do you some good to read these comments rather than dismissing them out of hand because they're in the wrong place, and if you do read them you might notice that I didn't put the discussion here, I only joined it. In any case, you should be glad we're discussing it here, and not elsewhere; here we might find a way to help you contribute constructively, if we took it to ANI, you'd probably just end up with a topic ban or another block. Your call. I think your main problem is that you can't stay serious and on-topic long enough to discuss anything with you. --W.D.Graham01:05, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict)x2 It's OK now, everyone stay calm, I've unplugged his Arduino, please go back to what you were doing, oh yes, that's right discussing me... Penyulap ☏ 01:07, 25 Jun 2012 (UTC)
Pen, nobody disputes that you're passionate and knowledgable, it's just that if you listened when people discussed you, and accept that the reason they often discuss you might be you, not them, there'd be a whole lot fewer discussions about you. - The BushrangerOne ping only01:08, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
Listened in regards to what Bushranger ? Penyulap ☏ 01:13, 25 Jun 2012 (UTC)
And what would you suggest in relation to any specific issue ? prove your point ? well what issue ? choose one. Penyulap ☏ 01:20, 25 Jun 2012 (UTC)
That's his other main problem, he never listens to anybody who he disagrees with. For example, he's been taking the ISS talk page around in circles for the last year with three or four proposals to change the article's dialect, just ignoring the opposition to his proposal and claiming he has consensus regardless of the previous outcomes; restarting the discussion whenever it dies down. On one occasion he put up an {{editprotected}} to try and push through part of his proposal (despite a page of objections below it), and then nearly got into a revert war with the admin who declined it. --W.D.Graham01:26, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
cn, since when am I trying to change the var ? more importantly, where is the consensus for it to be change, or kept as it is ? Penyulap ☏ 01:31, 25 Jun 2012 (UTC)
Well, I guess you don't want to diff anything then ? well I can diff a straw poll where WDGraham tied it up back to front, so that the status quo votes were hijacked in his own favor, to keep the eng var template against consensus,. interesting read that one, I can show you many editors who were quite upset about it too. yes, but you think there is consensus do you ? but you can't diff anything can you ? Penyulap ☏ 01:41, 25 Jun 2012 (UTC)
Well Craigboy is upset because on the CSS article, he didn't like the picture I drew, he wanted to delete it and replace it with his own. I don't care when it's just 1 to 1, however since April, Academica Orientalis has stated support for the image which I drew, which is based on the Chinese Government's own website's picture. So with 2 to 1, I would either put both pics in, or just the one that has support from Academica Orientalis. Then Academica Orientalis had put it into an overview article of science and technology in China, and Craigboy swapped it for a very inappropriate pic there, which I thought didn't provide the feel that the editor was aiming for, and I supported the original pic. Which he didn't like, and kept changing back. (that pic has since gained wider support, but Craigboy still is unhappy apparently)
Then there is the ISS article, where two other editors besides myself thought that an in-depth discussion of the APAS docking system didn't belong in the China section, so that was 3 to 1 against, and he kept putting it in. The problem here isn't actually Craigboy, who I think is a fine editor for reasons you'll never know unless I told you. The problem is WDGraham continually ignoring all editors on the ISS talkpage who disagree with him, over and over again for is it four years now ? I don't know, but it's like, three times longer than I have been an editor that he and Ckatz have been suppressing other editors on the ISS talkpage. So if they are like "Oh penyulap isn't listening to me" it's because I can freaking count is what I can do. I can diff consensus and support because I do not ignore people. So it is the remarkably poor example being set by WDGraham in regards to 'if it's archived it doesn't exist' that is confusing other editors. However, even when there are editors who are objecting to his point of view, in the same discussion, and same section he still refuses to acknowledge them. (not me, other editors) Penyulap ☏ 02:14, 25 Jun 2012 (UTC)
So Bushranger, I'd like to know, as you seem happy to give advice, tell me how I could possibly be any more accommodating to these two ? -Pen
(I made Bushranger aware of my question on his talkpage, but he seems to not wish to answer) -Pen
"Well Craigboy is upset because on the CSS article" I'm upset over more then just that. "he wanted to delete it" I never nominated your image for deletion, although you did nominate one of my images for deletion and the reason you listed was "If there was an artist with a computer who could be bothered making space station images, then this image could be replaced". "Craigboy swapped it for a very inappropriate pic there" Penyulap please stop lying. The image I replaced was that of the Chinese space station. "then there is the ISS article, where two other editors besides myself thought that an in-depth discussion of the APAS docking system didn't belong in the China section, so that was 3 to 1 against, and he kept putting it in." False, you were replacing my text with with unsourced and controversial claims. The only reason why I was adding an "in-depth discussion of the APAS docking system" was because you kept on crying wolf about American bias when it was mentioned that the Chinese docking system is probably only compatible with the US portion of the ISS.--Craigboy (talk) 06:00, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
Yes you are right and I am wrong, you didn't want to delete it. One point to Craigboy, I apologize. You wanted to remove all instances on English wikipedia of the image being used in article space (it's used on Chinese wikipedia as well I think, other places there is no article)
I did nominate the OPSEK CG for deletion as it in my opinion can be replaced with a free image, you are right.
3 to 1 would be in this section, where U5K0 is quite liking a particular version where it quickly says China uses the Russian designed APAS and the section moves on. He says his initial concerns with statements in the section are resolved, and suggests the detailed discussion might go into the docking section. That would be one, number two is Cs302b, who supports the docking discussion in the main article, but is quite doubtful over both it's inclusion in the China section, and the China section itself. In fact, there is more support I think for deleting the China section itself, it's margins are narrower, but afaik still balancing for it to be in there. But an in depth discussion within that section is quite unpopular. So, U5K0, Cs302b and I all want and support your discussion of the APAS docking system, we all want it, and we want it in the docking section. GIVE US YOUR WORK !!! gimme, gimme, gimme ! we want your work Craigboy.
So everyone wants your work at 3 to 1 and more, but at 3 to 1, we don't feel it belongs in the China section. If it were in the docking section where it belongs, then I wouldn't be 'crying wolf' as you call it, because you'd have the space required to describe it properly and explain everything, and please, when it is explained in depth you can use the word 'clone' and everything else you desire, because it can be properly qualified and expanded on. It's just where all the sources need to be compressed into a single half sentence that a fair summary of all sources, not just one, becomes so very important. Penyulap ☏ 11:03, 25 Jun 2012 (UTC)
In the policy you point to, on line number one, it says "Non-free content is used only where no free equivalent is available, or could be created," as I mentioned, it could be created. Look at the two of us, we are both artists who make images of space stations for articles, between the two of us, surely we could create an image. Penyulap ☏ 14:51, 25 Jun 2012 (UTC)
Or for that matter, James is upset about the former FA status of the article he put so much effort into, understandable he feels that way, but if he actually thought for one bleeding second that it was 'ruined' then he has frick'in Rollback, so why doesn't he just roll it back ? If it was possible to find a better version, obviously that would be possible, but the current version is clearly as good as it is ever going to be until people stop moping about and get back to editing. It can't be rolled back because there is no possible way to find anything better than the article that has been built now, so how can we start working together better ? Advice ? Penyulap ☏ 02:29, 25 Jun 2012 (UTC)
I edited the policy, so please take my clarification with a grain of salt, until it has gained a bit more support, or at least until it has been there for some time. Otherwise it is pretty easy to ask about it, or get involved in the discussion on that policy page, because we'll need to do a good job to either explain it to you, or explain it to me, or preferably explain it to everyone. Penyulap ☏ 15:35, 25 Jun 2012 (UTC)
What you need to do is to take a deep breath, not think - at all - about what other editors have or have not done, and ask yourself this. 'If I was an experienced editor looking at my work, what would I think? How would I react myself if I saw another editor doing what I do?'. If there actually aren't any problems, then the thing to do is not to snipe back; any accusations they levy will be sloughed off like water off a duck's back by the quality of your work when inspected. If there are any problems, then the next thing to do is 'how do I improve as an editor?', and to consider what others have to say about it. That's what I'd suggest. - The BushrangerOne ping only02:47, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
Well if I were an experienced editor looking at the wikiproject being used in a manner consistent with harassing an editor I might take slightly longer to work out who is the problem before weighing in with an opinion. I guess that is what I do at ANI, I take time to read up before I compute. I'd personally take time out of my ongoing editing to find out if the consensus is clear and apparent in that editors favor before suggesting that they are the one who doesn't listen. That way I'd not make the mistake of thinking that it's only three editors are unhappy with one, but rather it's multiple editors, across multiple articles, that are unhappy with two editors here. Who is not listening to who is a very simple question to answer correctly if you took 3 minutes to have a look at the talkpages concerned. Penyulap ☏ 02:55, 25 Jun 2012 (UTC)
Penyulap, stop accusing me of being at fault here. Find one post in this discussion which backs up your claim. Oh, there isn't one. In fact, that discussion demonstrates consensus to keep it as it is. So shut up, stop harassing me about it, and start doing something more constructive. --W.D.Graham06:12, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
I believe this activity should be documented, but I accept consensus is against me until I can change it, I don't continue to add it into the article even months or years after the last discussion because I go on respecting other editors long after they have stopped discussing the subject
You're to blame. You ignore other editors, you've ignored them for years, before I ever started editing wikipedia, you ignore them now, and with God as my witness you'll go on ignoring them forevermore, you ignore them when they say "This is a monument to the failure of the wiki system" and that is in the exact same discussion where you're ignoring them. An editor returns after having left the article just to quote Red Forman ? and you still don't see anything wrong with your behavior. That's year after year after year of not respecting other editors. Me, I'm an idiot, a damfool idiot, thank you James, I go on and on and on about yellow hats in the space station because we have an image and it's photographic evidence and I'd like to describe what is going on, but you don't see me shoving it into the article today, or for months, because I accept that it would take more to convince everyone that it can be documented than I'm willing to put in. I understand consensus. I respect other editors and I do not consider consensus to have changed if the page is archived, I go on respecting their opinions, even if they have left the project. Meh, but that's just me, I have probably forgotten more about consensus than some people will ever know.
James I am certain does not like me, but he has surprised me by putting emotion aside in favor of reason when he really didn't have to, and I respect that. He may think I ruined his favorite article, which to be honest is patently untrue, Brad says it barely got through into FA and he would have voted against it. I would hope that one day he'll stop feeling sorry the article was demoted and look towards improving it. I personally don't see a pressing need to give ownership editors sharper teeth to maul newbies with, so I don't care if it has the technical status or not, I only care that everyone can edit, and that the article has no gaping holes or serious problems. The article would be impossible to bring back to FA without a good portion of the material I inserted remaining. Sure, a lot needs to go, but what remains would be a substantial obstacle on the path to FA for my critics. They would have to face the fact that the article hasn't been 'ruined', and there is a lot of damn brilliant material in it. So the path back to FA continues on the precise timetable which I predicted at the FAR, nobody is willing to rewrite the future there as far as I can see. Penyulap ☏ 11:03, 25 Jun 2012 (UTC)
yes I know, it's a bit sparse that Christmas article, but there is always room for improvement, go and delete it/edit it/fix it if it bothers you that much. As for the Hats, take a look at the article, there are NO yellow hats, I would LIKE more yellow hats but there is just not enough support for it, so of course, I don't put it back in. Simple. Penyulap ☏ 13:51, 25 Jun 2012 (UTC)
Instead of making another personal attack, please answer my question. Is there a single post in the most recent discussion which supports your position? --W.D.Graham11:18, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
How about this, if you'd like me to give you beginner's lessons in understanding consensus, then you can start by not telling me to 'shut up', because if you would like someone's help, you shouldn't be telling them to shut up at the same time. (actually I remember someone putting it in the same actual sentence in real life, zomg, that was hilarious) Penyulap ☏ 14:03, 25 Jun 2012 (UTC)
I know what consensus is, thank you, but actually that's quite an interesting point. Please describe, in your own words, what consensus is. --W.D.Graham14:11, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm glad to see that this seems to have tailed off a bit; but guys, please, could you all consider being the recipients of GrannyHugz from Granny Pesky, combined with nice cup of tea/probably the best beer in the world, cakes, muffins, crumpets and so on. Good folks often have disagreements on stuff, and good folks can have bad days (it's called "being human"), and good folks can misunderstand each other and/or misremember things. Little spats like this are all part of normal human interactions (what animal behaviourists call "species-normal"), but it's important always not to let ourselves get too entrenched in them, to the point where we lose sight of the bigger picture and start focussing on all the bad bits. So, shake hands all around, or group hug, or whatever works for you. Hugz to all from Granny Pesky. Pesky (talk) 08:13, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
I have been mostly on Wikibreak recently, and just stumbled into this discussion today; perhaps I'm too late to add much. However, I will say that the summary of the situation by the first several commenters on this topic (Craigboy, PALZ9000, W. D. Graham, Salopian James, and Bushranger), and their analysis of the problem, matches my own observations on a number of space related articles over a number of months. Should the need arise, feel free to invite me to comment more specifically should that ever become necessary. Cheers. N2e (talk) 03:20, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
Probably worth having a look at his talk page, some interesting discussions going on there. He's also trying to open the ISS dispute again (including his attempts here and on my user talk page, I think that's the sixth time in the space of a year that he has started exactly the same discussion) - this time by consulting an administrator with his usual biased summary, without notifying anybody else involved in the discussion. He also continues to harass me by making irrelevant claims about my actions in discussions which don't even concern me; I suspect he is just trying to provoke a dispute. I am sure he means well - he has by his own admission a mental health issue which can cause "altered perception when making editorial judgements, determining consensus, or reading Misplaced Pages discussions addressed to them", and he has made some very useful and valuable contributions so I don't want to lose him from the project - but I believe he is out of control, and we should seriously consider taking this discussion to the next level, either WP:RFC/U or WP:ANI. Any thoughts? --W.D.Graham20:18, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
What I am opposed to is wasting any more editor time and resources on a discussion which has achieved nothing but creating a tonne of ill-feeling within this project. Uninvolved help would change nothing, no one editor has the power to overrule the rest of the community. In the other discussion, you said that you wanted to address the feelings of all editors on the talk page. The majority are just weary of the constant discussion of this issue, and just want it to end. I believe the comment about it being a "monument to the failure of the wiki process" was referring to the endless discussion rather than the content issue itself. If you truly want to address the concerns of all editors involved, please listen to those who just want this discussion to die with the little dignity that it still has. --W.D.Graham23:28, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
I, too, have seen useful contributions to the project by Penyulap; but too often have seen vast amounts of editor time wasted by unconstructive edit battles, point-of-view endless discussion, etc. I don't have the time to put the summary of the situation together, but I would certainly support the discussion at WP:RFC/U that would follow if someone else chooses to do that. Cheers. N2e (talk) 15:44, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
Penyulap is one of the best editors we have in the project when it comes to his abilities and knowledge regarding a great many things both of spaceflight and WP itself. I've had little interaction with him, but from what I've been able to read in talk pages, something is out of place. It may be what WDGraham suggests (which I was not aware of), that he has a mental issue, which I have no problem with, but whatever it is, it has become very disruptive. Making sense of his comments on talk pages is somewhat difficult; is he trying for humor? sarcasm? something else? These things are rather difficult to comprehend through text. Maybe we just need to ask him to explain himself and his intentions better, but it would seem some have already tried that. At one point I thought maybe he was not fully proficient in English due to some very incoherent comments, which again is something I have no problem with, and he had a hard time explaining himself. Regardless, the amount of time and manpower this project and its editors are spending dealing with him is too much. We should be editing and improving the encyclopedia, not dealing with disruptive editors. While I have no conflicts with with him, I would support taking this to WP:RFC/U. I do not want him banned from the project, but something needs to be done to improve the situation. I would only be OK with taking this to WP:ANI after we tried WP:RFC/U. At some point we may have to decide if the pro's outweigh the con's of having him in the project. --Wingtipvorte(talk)∅16:14, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
Wingtipvortex how about this, you pick any one issue with any one of these editors and investigate it. I'd be happy with a second opinion. Penyulap ☏ 20:44, 8 Jul 2012 (UTC)
He has too much humor, which is not a problem, but uses it on humour-barred pages(PALZ9000 also does) which is the problem. Yes and i just asked if it was wise to put santions on him. If he disobeyes the santions, he'd have to face a block for 90 days.Mir Almaat Ali Almaat ☏ From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 11:06, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
I've nominated List of space stations for FL (discussion). As of right now, the nomination has stalled because of a lack of people commenting (the last comment was 21 days ago).
I'd like to request additional, experienced eyes at the discussion. I'm posting here because it's a space related list. Anyone commenting doesn't necessarily need experience in the featured list process.
I cannot seem to locate a Misplaced Pages article for this particular satellite: Via Sat 1 Does one exist? -- perhaps under another name? Cheers. N2e (talk) 01:46, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks much, Wingtip! I tried several searches, guessing it did not find it as I left a space between Via and Sat. Cheers. N2e (talk) 02:15, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
How many of the major satellite buses do not have Misplaced Pages articles for the bus series? Does anyone know how to find out? What is the Wikiproject Spaceflight standard for such articles? (in general, do we want such articles to exist for all sat busses?)
One example from Hughes will illustrate: There is an article for the Hughes HS 333 satellite bus, of which only a relatively small number of satellites were ever built and launched. There appears to be no article for the HS 376 of which a much larger number of satellites were eventually built and launched (I searched "HS 376", "HS376", "HS-376", etc.). Cheers. N2e (talk) 18:49, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
