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Revision as of 00:10, 15 July 2012

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Pastirma

You say:

Do not undo/edit my edits which are sourced, with your "neutral" fairy tales, wherever you got it from. Pastirma is not of Tukrish origin, nor is it considered Turkish, except of course by Turks, Azeris and Macrakis

Your edit to the Pastirma article reads: "...of Armenian origin", with a footnote to Zubaida, Sami & Tapper, Richard. A Taste of Thyme. I.B. Tauris & Co. Ltd, 1994, p. 35 & 39. The actual text in that reference is: "Armenians enjoy a reputation throughout the region as distinguished cooks.... They are particularly renowned for their pastry cooking and for fine basturma. They share in the cooking traditions of their original homelands in Anatolia." (p. 35) and "As I have indicated, Armenians are widely admired as cooks, especially for their pastries and sausages, notably pasturma ." (p. 39). Neither of those passages claims that pasturma is "of Armenian origin". As for my edits, I never claimed that pastirma was Turkish (that was already in the article, and I just removed it). See my most recent edit, which incorporates some of your material. --Macrakis (talk) 21:57, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

PS Please don't accuse people of 'vandalism' when there is just a content dispute; see WP:AGF. --Macrakis (talk) 22:02, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes you are engaged in vandalism for your ridiculous edits and misinterpretation of well sourced material, not to mention the lack of your own sources. I will undo every one of your fairy tale edits. Your claims belong on propaganda sites, not wikipedia.Thinkfood (talk) 22:18, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Huh? Right now, the article says this about history:

Wind-dried beef has been made in this region for centuries; dried beef was indeed made in the Byzantine period

This is sourced to Andrew Dalby's book Siren Feasts. If you have a WP:Reliable source giving more details on history, please add it. The Zubaida reference simply says that Armenians are famous for basturma, not that they invented it. And please try to be a bit more respectful and civil. Thanks, --Macrakis (talk) 22:28, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

If you want civility and respect, I am all for giving it, however, your reversion of my edits was highly UNcivil and DISrespectful, not to mention based on fantasy more than reality. I did not provide Dalby's source, so I do not know about it, and if it was made in Byzantium, then why are you Turkifying pastirma? That in fact is even more evidence of Armenian origin, since Armenians were prominent in the Byzantine empire. And I reiterate, the Zubaida source legitimately indicated that pastirma is of Armenian origin, claiming otherwise after reading that passage, would make you seem like you can't put two and two together reading simple passages. Being "known" for something, indicates at worst that you "most likely" have credit for it.Thinkfood (talk) 22:37, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean about "not knowing about" Dalby. That reference was in the text before your edits.

Don't know what you mean about "Turkifying pastirma", either. The text I added five years ago said "pastırma itself is usually considered a Turkish or Armenian dish", with a good source. Some other editor in the meantime seems to have removed the "or Armenian" part (which I just restored). Anyway, that just says that it is "considered" Turkish or Armenian. So far, we have no good sources for its origin. The dried beef made in Byzantine times may or may not have been like pastirma -- was it spiced? with what spices? was it pressed? It was of course certainly not spiced with paprika, which came from the New World.

The Zubaida source says nothing about the origin of pastirma. It is not true that being famous for something means that you originated it. WP calls this sort of over-interpreting WP:Original research. After all, Germans are famous for beer, but beer existed long before Germans. --Macrakis (talk) 23:13, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

You are comparing apples with oranges. I don't care about the Dalby source and I don't care about beer, I don't have that book. As for being known for something, again you are not understanding the point I am making, the book "taste of Thyme" is a book for Islamic Middle eastern foods, if Turks had any part of pastirma it would have said as such, or for that matter Iranian or Arabic. Do you understand this point? And as if "you care"... if you did, then why are you bringing in fairy tales of Central Asia into this WITHOUT ANY LEGITIMATE SOURCE WHATSOEVER!? In Anatolia, especially Kayseri, the most likely origin of pastirma, was a historic Armenian city. As I said go to the discussion page to make your point, however lousy and biased it seems to me. As for myself I don't buy your "honest intentions" for one second.Thinkfood (talk) 23:30, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Please stop shouting and listen for a moment.

1) It wasn't me that added the legend of the meat under the saddle. But the legend (qua legend!) is in fact documented even in Armenian-oriented sources. See for example , which mentions both the meat-under-the-saddle story and a Caesaria story taking it back to a Greek dish called pastron -- alas, I have not found any confirmation of the pastron story, not even in the Babiniotis and the Andriotis dictionaries, which are usually eager to jump on any possible Greek origin (direct or indirect) for words, nor in Dalby.

2) What do you mean you "don't care about the Dalby source"? Articles are based on sources; not every editor can have access to every source. It is a good source for Byzantine origins. What's your problem? I'd have thought you'd be happy about that.

3) What do you mean "the book "taste of Thyme" is a book for Islamic Middle eastern foods"? The book has a chapter on Jewish foods, it talks about Greek and Armenian and pre-Islamic foods -- as its subtitle says, it is about the "Culinary Cultures of the Middle East". Note the "s" in "Cultures".

4) I'm aware that Kayseri had many Armenians and Greeks before the killings and expulsions, and that it was famous for its pastirma. That doesn't prove anything about its origin, though, does it?

Again, please try to assume good faith -- it is hard to work with other editors otherwise. --Macrakis (talk) 23:57, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Take a look at my most recent edits, where I use the Petrosian source I just found. --Macrakis (talk) 00:11, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Hummus

Please do not remove referenced material. The content was not inserted by anyone "desperate" but after consulting one of the most respected English dictionaries. Looking at your contribution history, you seem to have something against mention of the Turks. Please be aware that Wikipedians do not appreciate attempts to fight ethnic battles through the project. Also please be aware that, due to a totally different ethnic dispute, the hummus article is under editing restrictions which prevent people from undoing other editors' contributions more than once in evcery 24-hour period.--Peter cohen (talk) 06:18, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

By the same token, looking at my contribution history and your above statement, it seems you do not have issues with ethnic propagandists who have brought their ethnic battle to Misplaced Pages, but rather with those that attempt to correct it. I'm sure Wikipedians also do not appreciate this as well. Before you make baseless accusations, and since you are speaking on behalf of all Wikipedians, I urge you to stick to the subject on hand. As for removing referenced material, I could not verify your claim. Thinkfood (talk) 08:32, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

The Turks

I need to remind you that both Dolma and Pastırma are Turkish words; the fact that the Armenians (a loyal people within Anatolian Turkish states for nearly a millennia) were of the countryside and pronounce(d) these words accordingly as "Tolma" and "Bastırma", respectively, -and very interestingly just like the Azeries- another rural people (of the imperial times). Reading the above comments I understand you have a registered lack of sympathy (so to say) for us, the Turks. What a pity for you... All the best. --E4024 (talk) 22:44, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Caution on editing articles subject to WP:ARBAA2

Hello Thinkfood. Your edits are being discussed at User talk:EdJohnston#Nationalistic editor. Some of the food articles where you've been editing recently fall under the WP:ARBAA2 arbitration decision. Please use caution not to express a strong nationalist point of view on the talk pages of those articles. You seem to be hinting in this comment about some kind of a Turkish conspiracy to slant food articles. ("..this article has been hijacked by biased Turkophiles"). Some of our articles may contain biases, but this is a fixable problem. This kind of thing can be worked out through discussion and by better sourcing. Please don't jump to conclusions. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 00:10, 15 July 2012 (UTC)